ii and become part of it. >> first of all, this is the year of faith. it's important that we approach the year of faith in a very realistic way. it has to be something that engages a community and a community's heart. very often it can be misrepresented and the goal is to get catholic teaching down people's throats. without the community that is the living commentary on anything that teach, what we teach is simply abstractions that do not touch the heart. vatican ii, will be talking about the community all ways which is the embodiment of jesus christ. jesus by dying and being raised has become plural. he is no longer a singular person. two or three are gathered in my name, there i'm in the midst.

there has to be a plurality of people. otherwise you don't get an experience of him. the importance of community coming together, a spirit filled community, a community that reflects on who it is by the tradition of the church, they own, make their own on proclaim it as their own. >> i want to ask you a question about pope john xxiii, evidently everything you say about him is true. he was a forward thinking man. how far has vatican ii really is in the church today? if he had lived longer, would we be farther ahead? >> okay, those are good questions tom. first of all, i think to me, the key to a blessed john 23rds exist. he genuinely trust in the holy

spirit. he wasn't embarrassed by anything. also during vatican ii, he made sure he didn't intervened. he didn't get nervous. the only one controlling the church is the holy spirit to begin it. secondly, when he called vatican ii, he said two things in 1959, he said first of all, i want to have a dialogue with the modern world so the churches in contact with the modern world. secondly, i would like to restate catholic teaching in a way that is biblical, and pastoral because what we're doing now people aren't buying. >> in that era, we might call the old church. >> the old church had its gift. one thing it didn't have is the

fact that the heart needs to be involved and the community needs to be involved. to answer the second question, if he lived longer, i would imagine that a lot of the pope paul vi, was a very good man. he's been compared to hamlet. however, he became nervous that the church was spinning out of control. he reserved certain items to item which he decided. that would be the breaks on vatican ii, then you find other people certainly did not enjoy what vatican ii was about, surfacing and putting the brakes on more and more. we have now a compromised second vatican counsel. >> how far into it do you think we've accomplished? >> there are certain things that stand out. number one of the celebration the central act of worship being the language of the

people, being streamlined so it explains itself. you don't need someone that's commenting. the second thing is the renewal in our understanding and appreciation of scripture. that is extraordinary. we have people gathered together to do lexio. we have people carrying bible to study. >> do you know we're doing pretty well? >> we're doing pretty well. the third thing that came out of this election, if you or you're a catholic and you can obey the commandments and go to mass on sunday. vatican ii say, you're still not a catholic. you have to have the prophetic presence for god's kingdom in this world. you got to put your money where your mouth is and you got to be present to effect the values of kingdom in

life. i find those things very good. >> you know we're not the boss here. we got to take a break. we're going to talk about vatican ii. i'm tom burke, stay with us.

>> we're back on "mosaic" talking about vatican ii and father dave pettinggil is there talking about a shot at vatican ii. there are a lot of folks there. >> that's why it's so extraordinary when we take a look at the picture. this is st. peter basilica. bishops are there. these men were ordained maybe 1920, '30 and '50. all of the theology was done in latin. it was quite definite and monolithic. these men come and they are

open and they receive first of all an experience of church. these men pray together, celebrate the eucharist together and also they have these meetings at the two coffee bars, that they call bar jonas. they begin to see we're multicultural. gradually they learn from experts, they study theology. they took charge of the council and some of the document prepared by the vatican congregations were rejected because they were too legalistic and a whole new approach came thanks to what these men were experiencing as church people. they did an extraordinary job. >> i want to ask you too, vatican ii is a brand name in the church. you say vatican ii, people know it all. >> i'm talking about people

from all faiths and no faiths. we don't really -- we really don't know the details. it's kind of a brand thing and we have '62 and '65, you were ordained in '62. it was planned if our -- for a couple years. yet, it was not implemented until 1969. for 7 years we continued -- or whatever it was, 4 years. >> how was that? >> we had committees designed from vatican ii to implement what vatican ii said. the idea of translation devising new rights. what was started was the launching and saying here's what we want and everything had a measure up to the criteria that were established by vatican ii. that made for a very exciting time because when vatican ii

closed, the efforts that were made with the results of several factors come together. in the history of our council, vatican ii being the 21st, this was the largest attended 2500 bishops, this was the first one top observers and experts. this was to have indigenous clergy who therefore, brought their culture values to the table. they were not necessarily european people. then you've got the idea too that in in particular council there were approaches to things you never seen before. we changed church teaches. just idea of what marriage is was changed by vatican ii. >> to what? >> marriage was considered a contract between a man and a woman. now it's called a covenant which a relationship and

commitment was possible between two human beings. that's quite a different change. you have many other things like that. you have the literary form of the 16 documents. the literary form if you want to say, is pangeric. it's like making it look so attractive, his friends ask can we join you. >> when you wrote things these, were people behind these languages. who was our bishop here? >> anyway, let's talk about the question first of all, what the

bishops did and what they approved. there was a whole spirit of expression and they voted on the very expression of it and they could say plachet and there will be ways of rephrasing and that would have to be done by experts brought back to the bishops because they wanted to make sure it was consistent and it was positive. with archbishop mcgukren. they came back with general leaders. >> the bishops what they brought back from vatican ii and how happy they might have been about it. we're coming back with father pettinggil on "mosaic."

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>> welcome back to "mosaic." today we're talking with wonderful friend of mine about a wonderful time in the church and that is vatican ii. he is father david pettingil 50 years of priest, pastor, preacher, ministry leader. you had seminary professor. all of those things. we're talking about the archbishop mcgucen. >> some bishops it was too much for them. they were in a minority. we have to respect that. the majority of men came back and assumed a role of leadership in their diocese.

vatican ii required a lot of innovation. the united states national conference has been out of this world in role modeling collegial way of proclaiming the word of god in their documents. absolutely beautiful stuff. locally having pastoral councils, finance councils. all the idea ministry in the church has to be collegial because the church is a community of people. these men brought the insights back and they were thrilled to be able to share in these. religious women, were the first to hear vatican ii what it meant for them as religious women. they were great. some of us priest dragged our feet and it was hard sell for some priests. by in large, the people welcomed it. if it was explained to them. >> as you say, the church in that era, the old church as we might say, was a very defined kind of thing.

what i'm thinking is, i'm presuming that what i might presume to call power clergy had to give up. how is that? >> very good what you're saying. if i may, i'm answering the response to your question, just little background. if you want to describe the change, the paradigm shift before the church before vatican ii was like a pyramid. at the top was the pope then the bishops but the bishops were secretaries. people thought of world headquarters and these were branch offices. then you had the priest, the religious and the men and women who were virtually consumers of priestly power. the paradigm shift from a pyramid vatican ii were in a circle. no one lose their job. they were pope, bishops, deacons and men and women to do their job in this world. that is such a tremendous shift

and you said very wisely, it is a relinquishing of some type of power. but the type of power that you're relinquishing is usery one. you are letting go because someone else is in charge. we suppose to be a church had by a mission. it's not the other way around. we control it. >> i should have asked this in the final segment. how is it for you? you were trained in the old church. you had the latin and the seminary and through 169, yet you've always been a refreshed person in the church. how was it? i said refreshed and not repressed. >> that can happen too. anyway, what happened was this, as we were going through the seminary, there were some stellar people on the faculty. we had jack who was way ahead

of his time understanding liturgy. major seminary, two great people, these people were really great. frank norris who was a vatican ii expert and father bob. they gave us an understanding of liturgy, pastoral life which moved us to realize that we're getting in the theology manuals wouldn't play after page 3. what we did, we do books for coming out from france from all over, a modern approach to theology. with these been, we were prepared for vatican ii even before they had it. >> they were teachers in the seminary trying to get around the black and wheat? >> exactly. >> you grew it. >> days off, i spent half of my day off in the library reading them. i knew i didn't want to get up and make a bigger fool of the

myself. the same old them, i want them to be fascinated about what we're about. to see the larger picture. >> there was a part of it too as a lay layperson you didn't have to way until sunday. >> exactly. you were lay people are number one. we're there to support you yourself you're so important. that's the paradigm. please hold back, we should be doing that to but you >> we got to unique away. we're coming back on "mosaic," and vatican ii, stay with us.

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>> we have pope paul vi there in time after vatican ii.

he was the one who implemented the whole thing. we talked too about how it was. i wanted to mention that, when there's a change of power like that, there's always a scrambling. there's always a trying -- people want to change. here's our chance to pile on or do whatever. not in a bad way but just in a human way. we have a new archbishop here and it's happening. it just does. >> it's all that scuffling going on. >> what are we going to go? we talked about a little bit about the power. how did the priest hear except vatican ii? how were they ready for it? >> many of them were very open. others said it's what the church says. with no preparation at all, they simply all facing the people. we just start on this. the people weren't -- others

tried to be mull if i their people and so nothing changed. nothing really big happened. they were underestimating the tremendous scope of vatican ii and also mostiszeing their people. >> nobody said anything about vatican ii other than the current pope. where is he? >> he said an awful lot before he came pope which is gradually beginning to come true. the first thing, i'm not going to say i'm shocked or anything, i'm too old for that. he said that pope paul vi implemented the document on liturgy prematurely. i have never heard anyone criticize a predecessor and he wasn't pope thing.

he also believed that we don't emphasize the god directed part of liturgy that it's become too human. he said also, he felt mass to the back of the people was important. then he becomes pope and he does some things that or at least funny as far as i'm concerned and not in a humorous way. the first one is to allow the uninformed writer of the mass in latin to be an extraordinary form of the eucharist and to say at the same time this won't divide our church. the unreformed right if you celebrate it and look at it, creates one type of catholic. a consumer of priestly power. there is no sense of being gathered, because you're watching the show and there's no sense of being missioned, because the priest are the ones in charge of religion. i find out the second are translation. i don't care what people think

about the translation, no one asked for the translation. the people of god did not. this again is something imposed from above. these are not the styles of vatican ii. i don't question what a pope with do. that's not my prerogative. i do question the way we do things. that is something i would say does not seem to be a vatican ii way. >> you've always done things right dave. i love you and you're a great friend. talking too about the mass the words i missed from the mass and those who have left this world. i love that. we only got about a minute left. tell us what we should know. you said people should google the united states council of catholic bishops for the documents and for some comments, you say they have a very good perspective towards vatican ii. do that and google and you can

find things there and exhort us. >> any time this year. you're a faith you can get some understanding of vatican ii. also by reading the text because they are such beautiful text. they're scripture come alive. they're lovely things in themselves and i want to tell us this, there are some stuff you will read there you never thought the catholic would say. it's incredible. >> do you have a blog or anything? do you ever think about doing that? >> no. >> you know you're not a good typist. we got to go. you've been wonderful. thanks for being here. we'll talk more about vatican ii if we live long enough, vatican iii. thanks for being with us on "mosaic." join us again.

yes! announcer: there's a new team worth rooting for. watson: isn't that evidence? yeah, well, i will give it back when i am finished. there's nothing more hazardous to my health than boredom. what is wrong with you? you hacked my e-mail? took me seven tries to deduce a password. i noticed something in there. flexing our deductive muscles, are we? i could burst with pride.

. hi, ern. welcome to bay sunday. we've got a terrific show today. a pulitzer prize-wivening author with a laughing out loud new book.

we got three local nonprofit dosing great work in our commune to the best of my recollection as well. but first if you'd like to connect with us or pitch us a show idea we'd love to hear from you. we kick it off with the madea project using art and social activism. it's creative theater that explores what it's like to be a woman living with aids. pleased to welcome their founder and director jones and i've said it before, but i love your hat. >> good morning. good morning. it's nice to be here again. yes. >> lovely to have you. well, let's talk about hiv because, you know, all the education, all the information that we have and there's still a stigma attached, isn't there. >> yes. yes. i was approached by dr. edward who has the women's health project at uc medical center here in san francisco. hs about nour or five years ago. he actually, when i used the methodologies that i used with my incarcerated women because that's basically what the project is. it started in the jail hearsay in san francisco. he