national security agency surveillance program, colorado senator mark udall says it needs to be severely reined in. we'll talk to him and house intelligence committee chairman mike rogers, who says no way. >> 54 times this and the other program stopped and thwarted terrorist attacks both here and in europe saving real lives. it this isn't a game. this is real.

>> schieffer: it wouldn't be summer without a scandal or two and we'll get analysis on the latest in the anthony weiner saga from gather, dee dee myers, and michael gerson, columnist for the "washington post." sports columnist bob nightengale of "usa today" and bill rhoden of the "new york times" are here with the latest on the baseball steroid scandal. and we'll have a report from seth doane, who's just winding up a visit to north korea on the 60th anniversary on the end of the korean war. spies, scandals, and it's all ahead on "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs from cbs news in washington, "face the nation" with bob schieffer. >> schieffer: and good morning, again.

it has been a horrendous weekend in egypt, violent confrontations between the egyptian military and supporters of former president mohammed morsi have left at least 72 dead and hundreds wounded. secretary of state john kerry issued a statement saying, "this is a pivotal moment for egypt," and called for egypt's leaders to, "act immediately to help their country take a step back from the brink." our cbs news correspondent clarissa ward is in cairo with the latest. clarissa, what's-- what is the latest? >> reporter: good morning, bob. well, tensions here are sky high after those clashes on friday night and saturday morning that left scores dead. egypt's interior minister in a press conference said that egyptian security forces were only armed with stee tear gas ad that they would never fire live ammunition upon their fellow egyptians, but that simply doesn't gell, bob, with what we

saw for ourselveses when we visited a field hospital where morsi supporters were taking their dead and their wounded. we counted 39 dead bodies and doctors there told us that almost all of them had died from bullet wounds to the head, to the neck, and also to the heart. this violence is really just fueling the sense of persecution among morsi supporters and, of course, on friday, they received the news that egyptian authorities are now officially investigating morsi on charges of espionage and also on charges of collaboration with the militant palestinian group hamas. >> schieffer: clarissa, where do you see this going now? >> reporter: well, bosh the real fear here is of this pending military action to try to dismantle the protest camp where thousands of morsi supporters have been staked out since he was deposed early this month. egypt's interior minister said this is legally required, that

residents in the area have complained that the camp is causing too many disruptions, but the protesters who we spoke to who are living in that camp told us they are willing to face down tanks and even to die in order to protect their rights and to continue to call for their morsi to be reinstated. so many people worry that this is really setting the scene for possibly a very bloody confrontation. >> schieffer: okay, well, thank you so much, clarissa, and be careful now. and joining us now the house intelligence committee chairman mike rogers. he is in detroit. mr. chairman, if this thing gets any worse, and it it blows, i mean, it could set off turm soil all across this region. is there anything could be or should be doing right now, in your view? >> well, i think, obviously, we need to play an important role to try to calm the violence that's growing there. we need to be able to, i think, use american influence so that we can make a very clear distinction between the muslim

brotherhood who is using democracy to take away women's rights, to take away religious freedom, and what we hope happens is the secular political movement has an opportunity to take root, which is tactually which didn't happen, and there was no u.s. influence used there and the secular folks who caused the whole uprising to begin with said, hey, wait a minute, morsi was very active in taking away our rights using an election to do it. so we've got to sort that out. we've got to try to calm things down. and for americans at home who are saying why should we be interested? 5% of the world's oil every single day goes through the suez canal. about 8% of the world trade. so if this spills over and they lose control of egypt, it will have real economic impacts for us at home, and, clearly, it's to the benefit of the entire region and world and the united states interest to have a calm and a sustained, i think,

democracy grow in egypt. >> schieffer: this is sort of overshadowed the civil war that continues to rage in syria. is there anything to be hopeful about there in that situation? >> we are certainly planning for our best-worst option at this point. again, here's another case where almost two years go by, no u.s. real stepping up to our allies' call to get involved-- and i'm not talk become boots on the ground, just strong u.s. leadership and bringing special capabilities to this particular problem. but now you've got terrorist groups who are fighting even amongst themselves as they see that this thing is deteriorating in syria badly. you have iran using this as a proxy fight. the russians are still there. hezbollah, the terrorist organization. you have iraq now, the al qaeda in iraq now saying it's not just al qaeda in iraq it's. it's al qaeda in the lavent, and it's playing out in this calderon called syria and it's

putting pressure on our regional allies there, the arab league. i have to tell you, bob, you could not drew up a worse scenario to try to solve than what we're seeing unfold in syria, and the growing threat from these terrorist groups who now seem to think that there is real hope for a safe haven in syria when assad falls. >> schieffer: let's talk a little bit about this controversy that continues to build about the national security agency, and its efforts to put off a terrorist attack on this country to stave off one. you saw in the house last week, the house almost voted to severely rein in what the national security agency is doing, claiming they are invaigd the privacy of americans because they keep this large store of telephone numbers here in this country which they say they need to have so when they intercept calls from terrorists and other countries, they can check it

against this list of phone numbers they have. have they harmed the privacy or have they invaded our privacy, in your view, mr. chairman? >> i don't believe they have. and here's the problem. so you have this collision of really bad ideas and federal government overreach when it comes to it the expiers this new data hub they're trying to bring all your sensitive personal information on one side of the federal government, and i have real strong concern concern abot as well. this is very, very different. remember, this came about after 9/11 when we found out afterward that terrorists that we knew about overseas had called somebody who was a terrorist but living in the united states or staying in the united states. he ended up being the person that got on an airplane and flew into the side of the pentagon. we said that gap, that hole that we don't have the ability to say, who is that's person talking to in the united states?" we need to fill it. here's what they did they said--

the intelligence community-- let's take these phone numbers-- these are records the phone company already has and it's a bilge record, just to-from, no names, no addresses, and let's just hold them in a place, have very strict requirements that it has to have a counter-terrorism nexus to even have a phone number in so we can determine who is this terrorist overseas talking to? again, even they put the number in, bob, when the number comes out, there's no name or no address to it. and that's why there's zero privacy violations on this and the entire length of the program and 54 disrupted terrorist plots. it's overseen by the court, by the legislature, and the executive branch. no other program has this much scrutiny with very little information. there's more information in a phonebook than there is in this particular big pile of phone numbers that we used to close the gap-- we, the intelligence services -- close the gap that we saw didn't allow us to catch someone from 9/11. >> schieffer: let me ask you

this, mr. chairman, what would happen if they stopped doing this, if they stopped collecting these phone numbers and storing them there, where they can check them against these terrorist calls? what, in your view, would happen? >> well, we are going to miss somethingly, and exactly what happened on 9/11. what happened on 9/11, a known terrorist safe house calls in to the united states to talk to a terrorist living amongst us. we'll miss that. we will miss that connection between what's happening here and overseas. and remember, terrorists now use the same communication system in america that we do. so they're intermingled with us, which makes it incredibly difficult. what you're doing is taking away the one tool that we know will allow us to-- nexus between a foreign terrorist overseas talking to somebody in the united states. that's how they stopped the bombing in new york from three people with bombs in backpacks from getting on the subway system.

it has-- saved real lives. i mean, real folks have come home with their legs. real folks have not been-- had their lives taken when they're commuting to work because of this program. that's why i get real nervous. but i understand why people are nervous, bob. all of these bad ideas have collided, and this was the first opportunity, at least in the house, for people to express their anger about all of this other information that's being collected. i think we have to separate them and understand the difference. >> schieffer: do you think even members of congress know what they're voting on when they vote on this because i have heard from some members of congress, i've been told they have asked members of the intelligence community to show them the dossier they've collected on them. they want to hear the tape recordings they have. and as i understand it, they don't have anything of that nature. >> you know, that was what was so frustrating to me and i knew it was going to be a close vote. the day before the vote, people were asking, "how many of the numbers have recordings attached to them?

well, the answer is zero. if you have to ask that the day before the vote i knew i was in an education problem here. there are no recordings of phone calls. there are no dossiers. they do not record your e-mails. none of that was happening, none of it, zero. they were conflating all of these other problems with this particular problem. and it was concerning. this wasn't about modifying tthis wasn't about fixing it. they were willing to turn it off. i think that was a dangerous way to do it. i think with a little thought here we can add even more privacy than is already there, and at the end of the day if americans understood these phone numbers are not being called, they're not being monitored, they're not being surveiled, there's no spying on americans, i think they'll feel much, much better on it. that's a pretty impressive record-- zero privacy violations, 54 terrorist attacks that saved real american lives and our allies as well. that's real success. >> schieffer: all right, mr. chairman, thank you so much. we're going to get the other side of this now from mark

udall, who is the senator from colorado. you just heard what he said, senator, 56 terror plots here and abroad have been thwarted by the nasa program. what's wrong with it, then, if it's managed to stop 56 interest terrorist attacks? that sounds like a pretty good record. >> good morning, bob. i want to start out by saying chierm rogers and i both share a total focus on protecting the american people. there are a lot of bad guys in the world. i was in washington, d.c. on 9/11. i know what that felt like. i know people who lost loved ones on that day. we're going to do everything in our means to prevent that from happening in the future. chairman rogers is right-- the prism program-- that is the program that survailz foreign terrorists-- has been very successful. what i want to reform is the bulk data collection program under the patriot act, section 215. the n.s.a. is literally collecting every phone record of every american every day.

ook,he content of those phone calls is not available, but i think knowing when i call somebody from where i call somebody and for how long i call somebody is a violation of your privacy. there are apps that you can get on your smart phone or your smart tablet or your computer, bob, that can take that phone data and give a pretty good suppression of whaimpression ofg your daily activities. to me that is that is a violation of americans' privacy. when we collect in bulk all of these records of americans' phone calls, we're not necessarily being any more effective in protecting the country and we're sweeping up, we're vacuuming up innocent americans' phone records. let's restrict that to terrorists or spies. and my bill, which i want to push as hard as i possibly cwould limit the ways in which the intelligence community accesses average americans', innocent americans' phone

records. that's the way to go forward. that's the way in which to protect not just our people but the bill of rights. the bill of rights is the biggest, baddest weapon we have. >> schieffer: senator, let me just ask you this question-- so the government has the ability to do this, but there's no suggestion that they are doing it will will will will willy-nilly. in other words, you know, we give the police the right to carry guns. but that doesn't mean they're going to run around and shoot up the town every policeman. we have laws and all that sort of thing. so the fact that they would have this ability, there's nothing to suggest that's they are doing this. and there seem to be a lot of safeguards to prevent them from doing that. >> there are some safeguards, bob. there are not enough safeguards. why not, when you need to corroborate the data that you're generating in the prison program-- that's the program that chairman rogers is describing that's been successful. i support it. but if you need americans' phone records then go to the fisa court, the foreign intelligence

surveillance act court-- and get a warrant to generate access to those business records. if you look at section 259 of the patriot act, if you define it broadly, which emotion has done, you can collect people's medical records, financial records, credit card records-- you name it-- anything is on the table. that's one of the reasons the author of the patriot act has called for a throttling back of this section that allows for this metadata collection, bob. we don't need to do this to fight an effective war against terrorism. we're violating americans' privacy. it's time to change the way in which this law is applied. >> schieffer: do you have any evidence that the government has abused this notion? in other words, that they have gone in and gotten somebody's telephone records just-- just to have them or just to check it out or for political reasons or for some reason or another? or are you just saying this is what could happen?

>> there's certainly-- the dynamic of what could happen-- bob, literally the n.s.a.-- and, look, there are patriots there everywhere you look. the people in the n.s.a. are working very hard to protect us. but right now, they're literally collecting every phone record of every american, holding that in a database. i'd much rather have that data held by the phone companies. if we need to get acstoas it the fisa court can issue a warrant. that's how the police operate. that's how the f.b.i. operate. that's how we've operated in america in the past. we don't need the n.s.a. to be collecting in bulk all of these records of innocent americans. it's not effective. i would argue that it comes close to being unconstitutional, and there's a better way to do this. so that's why it's important to have this debate. we're having it in the congress. moderates, liberals, conservatives, all are sharing concern about the reach of the n.s.a.'s bulk collection program. let's change it. let's reform it. let's narrow it. >> schieffer: all right, well,

senator, it's very good to have you this morning. this is a very complicated story, and i think maybe we've shed a little light on it this morning. we're going to hear a lot more about it in the future. thank you very much for being with us. and we'll be back in one minute. there is a pursuit we all share. a better life for your family, a better opportunity for your business, a better legacy to leave the world. we have always believed in this pursuit, striving to bring insight to every investment, and integrity to every plan. we are morgan stanley. and we're ready to work for you. help the gulf when we made recover and learn the gulf, bp from what happened

so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. yesterday the korean war came to an end. the demilitarized zone, the border between north and south korea, came as a result of an armistice signed. close to three million soldiers were killed in the koreana war, including nearly 37,000 american soldiers. on saturday, president barack obama spoke at an event at the korean war memorial here in

washington. >> korea was a victory. when 50 million south koreans live in freedom, a vibrant democracy, one of the world's most dynamic economies in stark contrast to the repression and poverty of the north, that is a victory, and that is your legacy. >> schieffer: the north koreans are also marking the 60th anniversary in a very different way, in a rare departure from policy, they allowed foreign reporters into the country. cbs news correspondent seth doane was one of them. and he sent back this report. >> reporter: the images of north korea engrained in our minds are no easier to comprehend in person. this weekend's military parade rolled down the streets of pyongyang, a place known as the showcase city. the masses assembled seemed to understand their role in the spectacle. even standing in the middle of this, it's hard to give you a sense for just the sheer size, the scale of the celebration.

it's difficult to describe the enthusiasm. after all, this is the country of food shortages, human right abuse allegations, and grinding poverty, not exactly issues you put on parade. i stood to the side of the crowd and tried to smile or make eye contact, looking for a hint of the human connection. but north korea is a place where a visit only prompts more questions. the media was carted around in buses. it was almost like being on a ride at disneyland. we were able to see but not grasp. so we just drove by. when we could talk with people, we could not control conversation. our government-assigned minders did. they noted down names of everyone we interviewed. what are you asking her? no, no, no i'm just curious what, are you asking. the determination of this country intent to build its nuclear program was showcased on

stage in a different capacity. the aryong mass games is a choreographed acrobatic event that is not about the individual shining but instead the collective accomplishment. what looked like pixels in a bulletin board was tens of thousands of people holding multicolored cards to create differentages. this country, famous for holding ultimate control of its people, took control of its visitors. one of our government-assignedded minders asked me, "seeing is believing, right?" my answer, not necessarily in north korea. >> schieffer: seth doane reporting from pyongyang, north korea. seth as you prepare to leave after this extraordinary opportunity you had in this trip, what do you make the main takeaway-- what's the one thing you're always going to remember about this trip? >> reporter: well, bob, for me i would say it's a great deal of frustration. you come to a place to try to understand it more but in many

ways here's in north korea, you just have more and more questions. there have been really interesting kind of side conversations, those types of conversations that you would never be able to have on camera. and that's maybe where i've learned most. i spoke way 30-year-old guy today and asked him if he'd ever been on the internet and he said to me, "no." and he-- i said, no e-mail?" he said, "no, i don't know anyone outside of north korea-- the dprk-- why would i need internet? i said, "do your parents have a car?" ""no, we don't need a car." you look at this complete isolation here and it starts to make senses too how folks could be so drawn by this kim jong-un. junk seth doane, thank you very much and we'll be back in a moment. [ male announcer ] when you're going the distance, it's nice to have the experience and commitment

to go along with you. aarp medicare supplement insurance plans, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. keep dreaming. keep doing. go long. i"that starts with one ofre the world's most advancedy," distribution systems," "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country." "when you see our low prices, remember the wheels turning behind the scenes, delivering for millions of americans, everyday. "dedication: that's the real walmart"

about the anthony weiner story that hasn't been said before-- actually, several things. one, it is not funny. it is sickening. two, it is important. the mayor of new york is not only the most powerful municipal post in america but because new york is so big and is the media capital of the world, the mayor of new york occupies a bully pulpit, second in bullyishness only to that of the white house. the rest of us may not like it, but what the mayor of new york says matters far beyond the new york city limits, which is why someone with anthony weiner's problems has no business there and should leave the race.

anthony weiner is not an entertaining kook. he is a new-age flasher who has traded the traditional raincoat that can be opened to show his wears, for a digital camera that enables him to expose himself for the world, a dubious technological achievement. why would anyone put themselveses and their loved ones through something like this i wouldn't pretend to know but a friend of a friend said, ntoday's world there are those who value power above dignity." that's probably right, but even in politics, i want to believe they are still a minority. are tweeting. mi and 900 million dollars are changing hands online. that's why the internet needs a new kind of server. one that's 80% smaller. uses 89% less energy. and costs 77% less. it's called hp moonshot. and it's giving the internet the room it needs to grow.

this ...is going to be big. it's time to build a better enterprise. together. help the gulf when we made recover and learn the gulf, bp from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] if you can't stand the heat, get off the test track. get the mercedes-benz you've been burning for

at the summer event, going on now at your authorized mercedes-benz dealer. but hurry, offers end july 31st. stations are leaving us now, but for most of you we'll be right back with our political panel, including dee dee myers, michael gerson, and greg gergen. plus a discussion of steroid scandal in major league baseball. stay with us. ,,,,,,,,,,

"face the nation." joining us now to do this analysis to the news-- and, boy, do we have some news to analyze-- mierk a contributor to "vanity fair." david gergen served with both presidents reagan and harvard, and michael gerson, who used to be a speechwriter in the george w.positive bush white house and now a columnist for the "washington post." i'm going to say two words, anthony weiner. >> he may still innocent race but his campaign is over, obviously. it's not going to go anywhere and the reasons are so multiple. one sit's just the sheer shocking nature of some of the stuff that he's done. but, two, voters we found out are willing to forgive people as long as-- as long as the person is genuinely sorry and tries to change. anthony weiner's played voters for fools. he got into a mayor's race air,

very high-profile race, knowing that the problems that got him into trouble in the first place still existed and yet he told the story to voters that that wasn't true and i think that's ultimately why volter -- >> it's like you get one epiphany in politics. you can move from the right to the left or left to the right but you caint move throaft right and back to the left. >> you can't say i'm not really better but i want to be mayor anyway. the voters have had it. it's a shocking scandal that has turned the mayor's race into a bit of a circus. >> schieffer: is this some kind of a comment on the state of our politics today, david, that, you know, a lot of serious people just don't want to fool with running for public office anymore. and so we're left with people like this more and more who are running. i'm not saying there aren't some good people who run for office now but it seems like we're getting more and more of this sort. >> in american politics-- you have to love it this way-- we started out the program with cybersecurity and now we're talking about a cyber creep.

it's a weird dpeel diehl. as you were talking i was reminded scott fitzgerald said there are no second chances in american life. it turned out not to be true. there are second chances but there are no third chances and i think that's why he's toast. what i was pleased about you elevated the conversation about what does new york need? after all, this is the biggest city by far in the united states, and over the last 20 years, it had two very strong mayors in giuliani and bloomberg and they turned the city around. it was going the way of detroit not long ago, and now it's a thriving city, and to have a clown like this running. he just ought to pull out for the sake of the city but also for the sake of his wife, who is a classy woman. >> schieffer: the rest of it may not like it and sometimes those that don't live in new york, we become irritated with new york because they think they're the center of the universe, but in a sense, it is the second most powerful office in the land, in many ways, because it's in the media capital. as we have found out, you may not like mayor bloomberg, you may love him, but what mayor

bloomberg says people take note of far beyond the city limits of new york. >> i agree with that. americans are generally forgiving about sex and politics. there are examples you can talk about. and daltrey is not necessarily disqualifying as we saw with franklin roosevelt and other things. but when you have sex flus compulsion, sex plus misogyny, like we see in san diego, americans should be concerned about these things. it doesn't mean you're judgmental to show some judgment when it comes to the examples of public officials set but also their ability to lead. this is a case-- this is a scandal-- a future scandal waiting to happen in the case of new york, and it would seriously undermine his ability to govern. if he has a serious addiction, like a pain killer addiction, the answer to that-- no doctor would recommend a campaign for mayor. you have to take that seriously and he's not taking it seriously. >> schieffer: yeah, i mean, you know, if we're dealing with someone who had an alcohol

problem, they went off to rehab, and then they came back from rehab and they started drinking again, we would recognize they had a problem and somebody would begin an intervention process or something like that. instead, they seem to be rethinking their political strategy. >> well, the-- and the one person who won't-- doesn't see or recognize the problem is anthony weiner. he says, i don't have a problem. i don't have an addiction. an intervention might be the appropriate step but the voters are saying you've got a problem and our intervention is going to be to make sure you don't get elected. the other thing, back to michael's point, the voters are willing to-- sometimes you have to exercise judgment and they are willing to forgive certain things but you have to be qualified. and anthony weiner wasn't particularly qualified to be player. he has never run anything bigger than a 16-person congressional office and he didn't do that very well. he's a rhetoricitition and not a manager and a big city like new york requires really strong management skills as we saw in the current and previous mayor.

>> schieffer: dee dee, you were bill clinton's press secretary, let me ask you about this just from the standpoint of politics, people are talking about woorn's wife, huma, hillary clinton was her mentor, she was a very close aide to her and now some say she's taking a page from hillary clinton's book to stand by your man. my sense of it from just a politics point of view, she's doing hillary clinton no favors whatsoever if hillary clinton is planning to run for president herself, bringing this all up again and reminding people of it is not helping her mentor. >> look, this isn't a story that anybody, particularly the clintons, are happy to see splashed over the front pages and all over the news relentlessly, and i think they as much as anyone would like to see this go away. if they could choose they would certainly have weiner get out of the race and huma to get along with their life. it's very painful for the clintons. they are very close to huma.

it's not a comparable situation in a lot of televise what i think hillary clinton went through. >> schieffer: all of a sudden we're talking about the economy again. the president is going out to make these speeches about jobs and all of that. and, apparently, is going to sort of de-emphasize deficit reduction now and move back towards jobs, david. what do you make of this? >> i think he's trying to set himself up for the fight that's coming this fall. we're beginning to realize the dimensions of this, how messy it's going to be, once congress get back here in september and they have a conflict over not only extending the annual budget but also over the debt ceiling. and you're going to see-- it's going to be extremely messy. i think the chances of getting resolutions are small. tax reform is on the table. spending cuts are on the table. sequester is on the table. frankly, i think the president is right to get back to it. what i objected to in his speech was him saying washington has taken its eye off the ball.

he said that repeatedly in the last few days. he has the biggest spotlight in washington. as president, he's the one who can set the agenda. you know, the president speaks on something, we talk about it. right? we-- we're untiller followers it sense. i think he took his eye off the ball. i'm glad he's getting back to it. he didn't have much fresh to say, but he's lining up his forces and that's smart. >> i actually thought the speech was very good on the analysis side. the president is a good commentator on the economy. >> right. >> when he talks about globalization, technology, and the effects on middle-class earnings over time. the problem is that the proposals just didn't seem equal to the problems. what he talks about is not particularly creative, not innovative. he doesn't use policy to put the congress on the defensive and force them to act. so i-- and then he ends up with the assessment of blame as you're saying, and it looks small. it looks inconsequential, and it makes people wonder we're going

to have eight weeks of this message? that's really not sustainable. >> he's trying to pivot, but he's pivoting away dealing with today's problems and saying here's the long-term, the 25, 30-year agenda. that's fine but what are we going to do about tax reform this year. what are we going to do about the debt sealing this year? what are we going to do with the keystone pipeline this year? >> schieffer: again, i'm showing my age, which is not difficult to do anymore, but i can remember the days when the two sides were far apart and they tried to figure out some way to talk to each other about it. now one side goes out and makes a bunch of speeches. the republicans have been making speeches all summer here. it just seems like we're in, as you say, more of the same. i don't see anything getting resolved. >> we're in a positioning stage. both sides are kind of setting up what their red lines are, what they want to fight about. we don't know at the end here. republicans could perfectly capable of doing foolish things like fighting to defund

obamacare, and losing a lot of ground and possibly the house of representatives in a hopeless fight. >> schieffer: can they do that, michael? >> no. it's not going to happen. it's a fight over a completely unrealistic goal in this context. you know, senator burr called it the dumbest thing he's ever heard, and it is. there are some people in the republican party, though-- they're on a pretty good path for the 2014 election-- but there are some people that view this kind of politically self-destructive behavior as a sign of purity. and, you know, they're arguing that the republicans should have this fight. the president could overreach as well, trying to get rid of the sequester, for example. i think most americans don't view the sequester as a daily problem. the president could overreach. i think whoever overreaches in this debate is likely to be punished in this process. >> yeah and i think what the president needs to do is-- as david said-- he's sort of setting the stage for this argument that's comingt end of the september and october the end of the fiscal year and the

debt ceiling. but they're doing sort of eight weeks of filling in the blanks around the speech he gave last week, answering some of the questions that i think you raised which is what are the policy prescriptions? they didn't do all of that on wednesday. that's to be-- you know, more to come in the future and they need to do that and they need to build the case for have invest niewrgt makes sense. it's not just about 20 or 30 years down the road. it's about getting the economy back on track, an economy that will work for the middle class. and i think what we saw in the interview in the "new york times" today is what the president really believes which is rising inequality is the biggest threat to the economy and american way of life out there and the side that figures out first how to talk about that and own some of the of some of the solutions to that is going to win the argument. >> schieffer: let me ask you about the issue that came up last week, and that is immigration. do any of you think there is going to be any kind of immigration bill at the end of the year, michael? >> i think it's an uphill battle. if you look at the senate vote, 70% of republican senators voted

against immigration reform. that's actually a higher percentage than last time around. the base of the party is resistant. but it's a two-sided argument. there are tech interests in the republican party that very much want to see reform. there are the leaders of the republican party in the house-- some day they want to have the white house back. they understand the political dynamics here. and so i think genuinely, members are going into the august recess to see if this opposition is going to gather and build or whether it's going to fizzle. the hope of reform here is enough republicans will say i'm going to have to vote no, but i know we kind of need to do this, and i'm going to cut boehner some slack to do what needs to be done. i'm not sure whether that will prevail but it's possible. >> schieffer: you know, john boehner will not say what his own position is on a path to citizenship for the 11 million people here. >> i think that's because he doesn't have control of his own caucus and what's to see what the temperature of the people is, people go home and come

back. i'm not ready to write off immigration yet, because i think the republican party, as michael said, positioned itself well for 2014. it's putting itself in a pretty horrible position for 2016. if you alienate hispanics, as they're doing. you pass all these abortion bills and all the kind of ultrasound tests which sound barbaric to most women. if you refuse to go along with suant loan debt and get the interest rates down for students you have alienated the basic people you need if you're going to win the general election. i think there are enough republicans beginning tond we can get through 2014, but if we ever the white house back we need to start chipping away at the coalition barack obama built up. >> you have a safe chunk of the house, house republicans . >> right. >> who have absolutely no interest or incentive to meet anybody in the middle on any of those issues. so, you know, what do you do? >> i think that's right. >> if you're boehner. you're stuck. he's not leading because he can't lead.

he can't control the caucus. he can't even take a position. >> i think he led a little bit in his rejection of representative king this week in his very intemperate-- >> that was pretty low-hanging fruit. >> schieffer: remind us of what king said. >> king said problematic things about young illegal immigrants transporting marijuana-- >> for every valedictorian there's a 100-130-pound immigrant kids who have calves of size of cantaloupes from running nawrn across the border. >> i think boehner strongly rejected that in a quasi-sister soulja moment. he went to a group of spanish evangelicals which helped re-elect george bush in 2004, is the most gettable group for republicans so it showed some strategic understanding how the republican coalition has to look in the future. >> gray with that. john boehner is looking a little bit like barack obama. both come across as very good

men who don't have as much power as they need to get anything done. >> schieffer: let me ask you all, we talked at the top of the program about the n.s.a. program. the house almost really reined in the national security agency and the ability which it says it has to have to fight terrorism. is this an issue that cuts with the american people or is it something that doesn't-- people think i'm not sure how that affects me? >> i think it's evolving. and i don't think we know the answer to that yet. what was so interesting about that vote was it wasn't a partisan vote. it wasn't an ideological vote. it was the left and right coming together and nobody thought it was going to get 205 votes the week before and it almost pass. >> dubois: i do think people knew what they were voting on, david? >> i don't think they knew that they were voting on but i think the american public is shifting against the surveillance state. you and i have been around this town long enough to say look the government can do mean good things and it can collect

information, but you know and i know-- i worked for richard nixon-- there will be going to be people who come along and will abuse the system, seize the information and use it to go after people and the sieved guards have to be very tough and if you abuse the, you should go to jail. >> schieffer: we'll be back in a minute to talk about baseball and steroids.

was rocked again this week by another disclosure in major league baseball. one of the big stars, ryan braun, was suspend, basically for the rest of the season because are steroid use. we have two of the nation's top sports writers, bob nightengale of "usa today" is with us, and bill rhoden of the "new york times." bob, what is the latest news on this? are we going to see more major

league ball players suspended? >> we are, bob. it's going to happen some time in the next 10 days, new week. we could see as many as 12-15 players get suspended. we'll see how many guys appeal. >> schieffer: is there talk of who-- who is under scrut snee who do we think might be the people affected here? >> the big guy, of course, is alex rodriguez, the hieftd paid player in sports history, $275 million. he could be facing at least a 100-game suspension, maybe 150, even talk of a lifetime ban. and the others are guys in pennant races like nelson cruise of the rangers. bartolo colon and jhonny peralta of the detroit tigers. >> schieffer: what do you make of the timing of ryan braun? we had been told there were going to be a lot of names that were gog come out and all of a sudden, it was just his name. what's going on? >> i have tile, i'm kind of disuftd by this whole process. to me it's like a show process.

baseball continued to try to take itself off the hook by doing this thing piece by piece, beating on people. first they were making barry bonds the face of steroids. and then who was going to be the guy to save baseball-- alex rodriguez. you know, braun, he falls on his sword. they're out of the pennant race. he's hurt. okay, he's going to lose $3 million but i think he's going to get $127 million over the length of the contract. to me i think, if alex rodriguez, who has been demonized if he wants to do us all a favor i hope he fights. i hope he fights this because i think the whole investigation with this bogus clinic i think is borderline, i think it's a witch-hunt. and i know a lot of fans may not care about steroids per se but i think we all care about due mrs., and this is trampling on due process. >> schieffer: bob, you talked to rodriguez. you're one of the few reporters who interviewed him at length

recently. what's his state of mind? >> well, he's going to fight it. bill mentioned, he wants to fight this thing. his thing is, hey, if i get suspended for 150 games, i better fight it, because that will be two straight years off. i'm coming back to baseball at the age of 39. i got no chance. i've got a hard enough time coming back right now after a seven-month layoff with the hip surgery. >> but i think in his case-- yes, all, that but i think alex, who has always been the sort of vanilla kind of person i think he could a curt floodish-kind of person in another way, in terms of fight ooght playerss' association used to be the strongest association of all of them. and i think what marvin miller used to always say, once you give them a little bit, then they're going to take a bigger chunk and a bigger chunk, using the whole steroid issue as i cover. i think the players association, they have to make their stand now. >> schieffer: but isn't it important to get steroids out of baseball and to get this problem

behind us-- us-- >> it's not going to happen, bob. >> schieffer: what do you mean? >> it's not going to happen. there's always going to be some type of performance-enhancing something, whether amphetamines and that generation. this generation it's-- you're not going to have everybody do it. you're always gog have this percentage of people doing it. as we speak now, there's some chemist thinking of the whole next generation of things. i see what you're saying is it important to level the playing field? yes, but what baseball does, they've got it backwards. what they do is they take the drug dealers and they try to get the drug dealers to name the users. >> schieffer: but, you know, bill i've got to tellue i've played baseball, and i had a sore arm fair long time poop and if somebody had told me i could have taken one of these drugs and it would have made my arm ago-- >> you would have done it. >> schieffer: i probably would have done it no matter what the doctors were telling me because my heroes were doing it, you

know. and the role model is so important, it seems to me, they just don't think you can do enough to get rid of this stuff. >> the great bob gib son, the hall of famer, we asked him that question yesterday. he goes, "thank god it wasn't around when i pitched. i don't know what i would have done." i'm not going to throw these guys under the bus because i just don't know." the difference with the union is the players are upset. we had the player rep going on and on about ryan braun saying he should be out of baseball, have his contract voided. this is the first time the players themes. >> schieffer: let me ask you this-- do you see request sense that some of the players now have a whole different attitude about this? some people tell me a lot of them say, "look, i'm not doing it, if somebody else is doing the might get my job, and i want to get these people out of baseball." >> i mean, that's-- that's what they're saying. i do hear that, but i'm-- i'm-- i'm just wondering, i'm really wondering how true that is if you poll everybody-- and, again,

i get back to this thing if you really want to find out what baseball-- i guess eye don't like the fact that baseball is take this piecemeal. i want to having something like a truth and reconciliation hearing. i want to find out who did what when. and i think what you do when you have that kind of hearing it's going to go all wait up to the top from the commission tore executive. people who knew this stuff was going on but because the turnstyles were roll dispg business was good, they turned a blind eye. i'd like to find out once and for all how vast and deep this actually was and you're never going to see that because too many people would be implicate. >> dubois: bob, you said in the beginning you thought we were going to see some more. do you think sooner rather than later? you said maybe in the next 10 days. >> yes. there are investigations about complete, and this is a hall of fame week, and they certainly want to wait for after this weekend and we're going to start seeing gietz go down. they're going to meet with the union and say, "this is what we have, all your players, and this is what we recommend for

suspensions." there will be a minimum of 50 games for every single person. now we'll see who wants to fight it. >> schieffer: what's your best estimate of how many people are going to be affected? >> i say 12-15 major leaguers and could be a few dozen minor league players. since they're not protected by the union, they could be suspended 100 games or something like this. so we're going to see a big fallout from this biogenesis. >> schieffer: listen, i want to thank both of you. i think this is a very serious problem. i'm glad you were here to talk about it and we'll be back in a minute. ,,,,,,,,,,

for us today. i'll be with you all next week on the cbs evening news, so i'll see you there. but before we go, we note the passing of former louisiana congresswoman lyndi boggs. she came to washington as hale boggs' wife and succeeded him when he died. she became a champion of women and civil rights, latter ambassador to the have the. she was also the mother of our friend cokie roberts of abc.

lindy boggs, 97. when we made our commitment to the gulf, bp had two big goals: help the gulf recover and learn from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely.

our commitment has never been stronger.

captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org ,,,,,,,,,,

>> announcer: the following is a paid advertisement for cold plasma sub-d by perricone m.d. how old does your neck make you look? would you like to take years off your appearance and help remove some of the signs of aging on your neck for a look that is firmer, tighter and more youthful? well, now you can. introducing dr. perricone's cold plasma sub-d. sub-d is specifically formulated for the area called the submandibular. often neglected, the skin in this area has unique needs, and cold plasma sub-d helps tackle the most common signs of aging on the chin, jawline, neck and decollete. coming up in the next half-hour, you're going to meet the creator of sub-d, and the dermatologist to the stars, dr. nicholas perricone. dr. perricone believes that aging is optional, and you don