look at that. hello, welcome to mosaic, today we're going to talk about vatican ii with one of my number ones, father david petengill. you have done so much, you are 15 years a priest. i know your resume has so many things on it the people pick a directory. >> people introduce me sometimes, i say what i used to do, i feel like a corpse at be irish wake. i'm more interested in what i'm doing now, i find that much more rewarding.

>> vatican is in front of us, i grew up in it, i was an altar boy, i learned from the old man. and i am kind of a good guy to talk to about this because i'll admit to you and to our watchers that, you know, my -- in a lot of ways, my faith is very immature. so this could be a face thing for vatican ii, to find out. >> you tell me now where is a good place to start? >> i think first of all, since this is the year of faith, it's important that we approach the year of faith in a very realistic way. it has to be something that engages a community and a community's heart. very often it can be misrepresented and the goal is to get catholic teaching down people's throats and without the community that is the living commentary on anything we teach. and what we teach is simply abstractions that do not touch

the heart. so vatican ii will be talking about a community always, which is the embodiment of jesus christ. if you will, jesus by dying and being raised is eternal, he is no longer a singular person. the minimum requirement is in matthew's gospel, chapter 13 -- pardon me 18, where two or three are gathered in my name, there i am in the midst. there has to be a pleural amount of people for jesus to be experienced. otherwise you don't get the experience of him. being a genuine community, a spirit filled community, a community that reflects on who it is by the tradition of the church that they all make their own and proclaim it as it's own, you have gangbusters. >> i want to ask about pope john xxiii, everything they said about him, he was a loving, caring pastoral, and i want to

ask you two things, how far has vatican ii really -- how much of it really is in the church today and if he had lived longer, would we be farther ahead? >> okay. those are good questions. the first one is this: first of all, i think to me the blessed john xxiii's existence was this, he genuinely trusted in the holy spirit. he believed in arguments, passionate disagreements the spirit could be present moving toward a consensus. he wasn't embarrassed by that. during vatican ii he didn't intervene. he didn't reserve certain things to himself. he didn't get nervous because they think oh the church is out of control. the only one who should be controlling the church is the holy spirit to begin with. he had that beautiful spirit, when he called vatican ii, he said two things in 1959 he went to the old cathedral to announce the council, he said first of all i want to have a dialogue

with the modern world so the church is in contact with the modern world. secondly, i would like to have catholic teaching in a biblical, scrip actual, officially and litujrgikar and pastoral, people are not paying what we're doing now. the old church. >> the old church. >> and it has its gifts, bun thing it didn't have was the fact that the heart needs to be involved and the community needs to be involved. so to answer the second question, if he lived longer, i would imagine that a lot of them pope vi was a goodman, he was compared to hamlet because he saw so many difficulties, it took him a long time to reach a decision. however, he became nervous that the church was maybe spinning out of control and he reserved certain items to himself which he decided. and that would be

the breaks on vatican ii. then you find other people who certainly did not enjoy what vatican ii was about, surfacing and putting the brakes on more and more, now we have a compromised second vatican council. >> how far do you think we've accomplished? >> i think there are certain things that stand out. number one, celebration of the central act of worship, the eucharist, being streamlined as it's celebrated. you comment and it you become part of it and you're there. and the renewal of our understanding and appreciation of scripture. that is extraordinary. it appears that every celebration we have people that gather together and the scriptures we have people praying for hours. we have people carrying bibles to study. >> so you think we're doing pretty well? >> that. and something we do pretty well, a third thing it came out of this election, if

you're a catholic and you could obey the commandments, go to mass on sunday, vatican ii says it's document, vatican one says you're not a catholic. you have to have the prophetic presence for god to be in the world. you have to vote, put your money where it was, and you have to effect the values of the kingdom in life. i find those things very good. >> you know, we're not the boss here. we have to take a break. we'll come back and talk more about vatican ii with father david pettingill. eye david burkes, stay with us.

(singing opera) that's right, you can't beat a free colonoscopy. enter the cbs cares colonoscopy sweepstakes. you can be our numero uno. (opera continues) all right. we're back on mosaic talking with david pettingill. there are a lot of folks there. that is vatican ii. >> it's extraordinary, tom when

we look at the picture, this is st. peter's basilica, this is the hall. the bishops are there, and they're being given an experience that is extraordinary. these men were ordained, in 1920, '30, '40, '50, all their theology was in latin, it was all according to manuals, it was definite you want to use the word monolithic. they were open and received an experience of church. they pray together and celebrate the eucharist together. and they have the bar gina and baramus. they were multicultural, different issues, they learned from the experts that they studied theology, they found so many things that they wanted to do in a pastoral way that they took charge of the council. and some of the documents were prepared by the vatican

congregations were rejected because they were too legalistic and a whole new approach came thanks to what these men were experiencing as church people. and they did an extra job. >> i want to ask you too, when we're talking about i mean, vatican ii is a name of the church, when you say vatican ii people know it, i'm talking about people from all faiths or no faith. but we don't really -- we really don't know the details. it's a brand thing. '62 to 65 you were ordained in 62, there was seminary in anticipation of i guess this coming. it was planned for a couple years, and yet it was not implemented until 1969. so for seven years we continued, or whatever it was, four years, right? >> how was that? >> well, the thing was we had committees designed from vatican

ii to implement what vatican ii said. so i have translation, devising new rights, all of these things had to be done. but what was started was the launching and saying here's what we want. and everything had a criteria that were established by vatican ii. that made for a very exciting time because when vatican ii closed, the efforts that were made were the result of several factors coming together. first of all in the history of our 20 council, vatican ii being the 21st, this was the largest attended, 2500 bishops. this was the first one to have observers and experts. this was to have indigenous clergy, therefore they brought their cultural values to the table. they were not necessarily, if you will, european people, okay. then you got the idea too that in this

particular council there were approaches to things that you never have seen before. we changed church teaching, that's a very important thing. just the idea of what marriage is was changed by vatican ii. >> like what? >> first of all, marriage was considered a contract between a man and a woman and now it's called a covenant, which means a relationship, a commitment is possible between two human beings. that's quite a different change. you have many other things like that. you also have the literary form of the 16 documents, the literary form if you want to say is panajeric it means there is no condemnations if you don't believe this, you are out. but rather, look how beautiful this is, don't you want to join it. its like painting and making it look so attractive friends want to join you. >> when these were together was

everyone behind that kind of spirit? >> yes. >> how did most bishop in america think about it? >> the bishop was archbishop lukatta, the since you asked -- >> did you know him. >> a cathedral that burned, i hope it wasn't a comment by god on what we were. >> so anyway, let's talk about the question first of all, what the bishops did and what they approved. it was a whole spirit of expression and they voted on the very expression of it. and they had, it pleases, or no, or there would be ways of rephrasing that would have to be done by experts, brought back to the bishops because they wanted to make sure it was consistent and it was positive. now, as the archbishop, the bishops came back from this vatican ii as

genuine leaders in their diocese. we had a few i want to go away with a thought. the bishops what they brought back from have and how happy they may have been. we're back with father david pettingill on mosaic. ,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,

welcome back to mosaic. today we're talking to a wonderful friend of mine about a wonderful time in the church that is vatican ii. and he is father david pettingill, 50 years a priest, pastor, preacher, ministry leader. you're a seminary professor. my oh my, all of those things.

>> we're talking about archbishops and how happy bishops who bring back what they had to bring back. >> for the experience, some bishops okay it was too much for them. they were in the minority. we have to respect that. the majority of men came back and assumed a role of leadership in their diocese. and that context of the vatican ii required a whole lot of innovations. first of all to have a national conference of bishops meeting regularly and the united states conferences have been out of this world in role modeling proclaiming the word of god in their documents, beautiful stuff. but then locally having pastoral counseling, parish counselor, liturgj councils, all the ministry has to be collegial, the men built the in sides

back, and religious women were the first to hear vatican ii, but then religious women that the their orders were early. some the priests dragged their feet. it was a hard cell for some priests, but by in large the people welcomed it as it was explained to them. as you said the church in that area, the old church as we might say was a very defined type of thing. so what i am thinking is i'm presuming that what i might presume to call power, clergy had to give up. how was that? >> if i may, i'm answering responding to your question, just with a little background. if you want to describe the change, the paradigm shift, the church before vatican ii was like a pyramid. the top was the pope, the bishops, had secretaries, people thought of rome as headquarters and these

are branch offices, then you have the local priests, the religious and then the laymen and women who were virtually consumers of priestly power. the paradigm shift from a pair mid, vatican ii to a circle. and in the circle, no one loses a job. there are pope bishops, priests, deacons, and religious who are serving laymen and women to do their job in this world. and that is such a tremendous shift of emphasis and you said very wisely, it is a relinquishing some type of power, but the type of power that you're relinquishing is an illusory1, we're supposed to be a church by omission. jesus conferred on us, it's not the the other way around. >> the final segment i want to ask you now, how was it for you? because you were trained in the old church? latin the seminary, all that kind of thing, latin from 1969

and yet you've always been a refreshed person in the church. how was it? i say refreshed not repressed, so yeah. >> that's great. that's another show. anyway, what happened was this: as we were going through the seminary, there was some stellar people on the faculty. minor seminary, we had jack olivier who was ahead of his time in understanding liturgy, that doesn't mean the other people were chopped liver. these people were really great, frank norris who was a vatican ii expert and who was there and then father bob chigare, they gave us an understanding liturg liturgy, and what we were getting in the theology manuals wouldn't play after page three. what we did, new books were coming out from france, from

all over, modern approach to theology. so with these men we were prepared for vatican ii even before they had it. >> so there were teachers in the seminaries who were trying to get around the black and white. >> exactly. >> yeah. >> exactly. that's where you grew in. i loved it. on days off, norris gave us a bibliography of up to date books. i spent half my day off in the the library reading, i didn't want to make a bigger fool out of myself. i wanted people to be fascinated by what we're about, not drudge along, and say i'm going to be miserable. to see the larger picture. there was a part of it too i'm thinking as a layperson that you didn't have to wait for sunday to catch up. >> right. exactly. >> that might be an idea but that it can be in your life every day. >> exactly. exactly. >> and then you who are lay people are, number one, we're there to support you because you're so important. >> okay. >> that's the paradigm shift.

because everyone is important, please hold back. >> we have to speak away, we're coming back on mosaic, vatican ii stay with us.

all right. there we are, we have pope paul vi and there i i guess after vatican ii, because he was the one who implemented the whole thing, right? >> right. >> we talked how it was, i wanted to mention when there is a change of power like that there is always a scrambling, there is a dragging, people want to -- here's our chance to pile on, not in a bad way just in a human way. >> we have a new archbishop here, it happens, it just does. it's all about scuffling going on. anyway, where are we going to go? >> we're talking about, talk a little bit about the power and

the priest. how did the priests here accept vatican ii, how were they ready for it? >> many of them were very open. admirable in what they did. others said it's what the church says. so with no preparation at all, they just faced the people, this is this, and we just start on this particular day. so the people were chatechized, others were trying to mullify people and say we just drape this and turn the altar around, nothing big it happening. they were understand estimating the tremendous scope of vatican ii and also anesthetizing their people. >> i want to say we can't go away, we only have three minutes, no one said the most about vatican ii than pope benedict xvi. he said a lot

before he became pope, which is gradually beginning to come true. the first thing, i'm not going to say i'm shocked or anything like that, i'm too old for that, but he said that pope paul vi was providing a document on liturgy premature me. i've never heard anyone criticize a predecessor, he wasn't pope yet. he said we do not direct the god directed part of liturgy he said it was too human. he said mass back to the people was important. and so then he becomes pope and egos some things that are at least funny as far as i'm concerned and not in a humorous way. the first one is to allow the unreformed bread of the mass in latin to be an extraordinary form of the

eucharist and as i say at the same time this will not divide our church. well, the under formed right, if you celebrate it and look at it, creates one type of catholic, a consumer of priestly power. you're watching a show, there is no sense of being missioned because the priests are the ones in charge of religion. i find that for a second our translation, i don't care what people think of the translation -- i do, but that's not the issue. the issue is no one asks for a translation. the people of god did not. the bishops didn't. this is something imposed from above. these are not the styles of vatican ii. i don't question what a pope can do, that's not my prerogative, i do question the way we do things. and that is something that i would say does not seem to be a vatican ii way. >> well you've always done things right, david. >> i love you. one you're a great friend, but talking too

about the mass, about the text and the words i miss from mass is the eucharist prayer, those who have left this world in your friendship. i love that. >> exactly. >> we only have a minute left. exhort us, tell us get off your chest whatever you want to say about vatican ii. you said people should google the united states council of catholic bishops for the documents and priestly comments. you said they have a good perspective toward vatican ii. google and you can find things there, but exhort us. >> any time during this year especially, get your faith, your faith that you get some understanding of vatican ii also by reading the texts because they are such beautiful texts. the scriptures come alive. they're lovely things in themselves. i want to tell you this, let's be sensational, there is some stuff you'll read there you would never think the catholic church would say, and is saying, i'll keep you in

suspense. people will google it just for that. >> incredible. >> do you have a blog or anything? do you ever think about doing that? >> no. >> you're not a good typist. >> from the lecturn. we have to go. david you've been wonderful. thank you for being here. come back. >> we'll talk more on that if we live long enough, vatican iii. thank you for being with us on mosaic. join us again. for over 60,000 california foster children,

nights can feel long and lonely. i miss my sister. i miss my old school. i miss my room. i don't want special treatment. i just wanna feel normal. to help, sleep train is collecting pajamas for foster children, big and small. bring your gift to any sleep train, and help make a foster child's night a little cozier. not everyone can be a foster parent, but anyone can help a foster child.

hello everyone, welcome to bay sunday. we begin with our pitch, if you have a show idea, we'd love to hear from you. facebook.com/baysunday. hopefully we can hook up. we begin at the movies this sunday. the jewish film festival taking over san francisco once again. it's a winter fest this morning at the historic theater, five films, a number of -- (no audio.) way until about 9:00 showing five brand new films. tell us where they can be watching this. >> this is the vogue theater. this