>> schieffer: will kelp back. we're joined by retired air force general michael hayden who served as head of cia and national security agency and michael morell who is number two man at the cia last year now cbs news consultant. michael morell also served on the panel that made recommendations to president obama about what type of reform should be madet the national security agency after the revelations by edward snowden. gentlemen, let me ask you both i'll just start with you, mike, this situation on the border of ukraine right now what is your take on what putin is up to? >> i think you have to make distinction between capabilities of the troops there and putin's intentions. the capabilities of the troops would be to take perhaps third of ukraine if putin wanted to.

but it would be very difficult for him to hold base what would happen very quickly is insurgency would grow up the troops would be intact. a very nasty situation, i don't think putin wants that. that brings us to the intentions. what he's trying to do is maximize what he gets out of this diplomatically. he thinks he's in a strong position, he wants to come to the negotiating table. >> schieffer: do you think he's ready to dial it back? >> i agree with michael's 'that is sis. capabilities change slowly. intentions can change quickly. we need to be concerned about this. but frankly i think he wants to pocket the crimean victory, make that a fact beyond contradiction. i think the talks between lavrov and secretary kerry will not talk about crimea that will be locked in and will not change. also you have to understand what tools of influence does he have. is it the magnetic attraction of

the russian political system or russian economy. no. his tool is that threat, that danger, that presence of force along ukrainian border. i think we'll see them there for a long time. which will be troubling and potentially destabilizing. i agree with michael -- >> schieffer: certainly upped his position. >> what he wants ultimately is he wants to make sure that ukraine does not become part of nato. and probably not part of the eu either that the what he wants. >> schieffer: but the talks that kerry and lavrov are having, you both see this as a good thing as it were? >> a good thing with one caution. we cannot be negotiating over the heads of the ukrainian people. what fundamentally matters here is the ukrainians will for the nature of their state. not even project the appearances that we're negotiating beyond them. >> schieffer: let me ask you what is going on, the president

makes his recommendation now that he wants to basically as i understand it stop the national security agency from collecting its large banks of data, telephone numbers of americans. you were on the panel that recommended this. has the president -- i assume you're in favor of what he's done here, this is one of your recommendations. what difference is this going to make? how do people know? >> this is exactly what the review group recommend ed which is that the government will no longer old the data and that any time nsa wants to query that data this they will require court order. there is a competing proposal from the house intelligence commit tie which is that the phone companies will also hold the data, that court review will not happen before, it will happen later. i'm comfortable with that. i think we're headed in the

right direction here. i think there will somebody sort of compromise between the president's proposal which again consistent with review group and house intelligence commute tee's proposal. >> schieffer: general, you ran the national security agency are you comfortable with this? >> as michael suggested powerful convergence between what the president is suggesting and the house intelligence committee -- >> schieffer: explain what difference. >> here is what's happening. nsa would get billing records on daily basis from the americans telecom providers. but over time the percentage of overall billing records that nsa was retrieving got smaller and smaller. pointed out that they're only getting a third if that just because of changes in technology. but nsa held them. a lot of civil libertarians were concerned not because they had been abused but because of the potential for abuse. what we get now is nsa doesn't hold it. the telephone companies hold it.

nsa gets to query the data and here they get to query the data in ex-husband sieve way not one-third they got. if you look at that the data in house bill it actually talks about all communications. nsa's able to query not just telephone data but digital or e-mail metadata, too. we've arrived at a solution that actually makes us more safe and gets people higher comfort that government would not have viewed. >> schieffer: how can the telephone company do a better job of keeping it safe than united states government? >> there's a difference between the government holding the data which creates the possibility of abuse by the government and the government not holding the data which obviously doesn't create that possibility. the phone companies have held this data all along there's no additional risk. >> schieffer: the part that

worries me not so much the government is spying on me but that all these commercial enterprises are spying on me. should i be word reread about that? >> that line between our public self and our private self is shifting. so much more of our individual knowledge data is out there in the public domain for retrieval. it's a broad cultural question that we have to come to grips with. we've talked about this before it's generational, too. different people of different ages think differently. >> schieffer: i think we're redefining what privacy is. people now talk about things at the dinner table that they used to not talk about behind the barn. seeing stuff on facebook -- well, i mean, we all know what we're talking about here. >> important way, though, we are governed about the reasonable expectation of privacy that's the fourth amendment guarantees. now that definition of reasonable is shifting. >> schieffer: you're

absolutely right. thanks to both of you. we'll be back with our panel in just a second. but tracking all the action and hearing everything from our marketing partners, the media and millions of fans on social media can be a challenge. that's why we partnered with hp to build the new nascar fan and media engagement center. hp's technology helps us turn millions of tweets, posts and stories into real-time business insights that help nascar win with our fans. are you still sleeping? just wanted to check and make sure that we were on schedule. the first technology of its kind... mom and dad, i have great news. is now providing answers families need.

siemens. answers. >> schieffer: we're back with our panel. i can't think of sunday when we had more to talk about we're joined by gwen ifill who hosts ""newshour" and david ignatious downs 6 columnist for the who was report knowledge, dave gergen with harvard want to welcome carolyn ryan to "face the nation." the knew washington bureau chief what an impressive -- i don't know how i got invited to this. david, what is your take right now on where we are on this situation in ukraine? >> well, i think the president going to europe to make some advances, he gave a good speech, he has bolstered things. he's done more than george w. bush did way back when with georgia. having said that, as much as i

detest vladimir putin, he's a thug, you have to acknowledge he's played his cards shrewdly and successfully. syria, we were on the verge of going in with military action he offers a deal that we accept and keeps -- goes in to crimea, there are going go to be consequences. he's basically sort of in his hands. then said, well, he paid a big price, he isolated. today we got secretary of state turning around to go back and engage -- negotiations with the russians, that's some diplomatic isolation. >> you. >> schieffer: you know, i mean the parallels between this and beginnings of world war i also word war ii are just striking. yet we find the attitude in the united states right now very much like it was before world war i. people don't want anything to do

with this according to the polls. they're not sure we should become even involved. >> one of the most interesting stories i read about this week was written by the brookings. they want -- they want -- not ace lakes exactly but don't want to be -- don't want boots on the ground anywhere. at the same time the president foreign policy rating are going down, people look at him they don't approve of his handling of foreign policy even though he's carrying through that very -- we should be pulling back so now the question is what is the script. is the script kerry and laugh or in paris, the obama-pun at this time phone call on friday. who is making the phone call, who is blinking, what is not. either way i don't think that public opinion in your second term what drives the outcome. >> i do think when you talk to people as reporting this through the weeknd if you talk to 20 different people within the u.s. government you get 20 different

interpretations of what putin is really ultimately up to. i think one of the problems just in terms of reading the situation is that he is relying on fewer and fewer advisors and aides and shrunken circle of loyal advisors. it was reuters who says he listens to his own inner voice. some glimmers of hope given the lavrov-kerry meeting there is unpredictability and volitility that made it very difficult for the west to read it. >> schieffer: david, i wanted to ask you about something you said earlier, what was that like where does -- how does he see all of this? >> this was complication where dr. kissinger was given his papers, there was an evening then day of discussion about europe. principally about ukraine. and henry kissinger now over 90, but the person i find most

useful to listen to on crisis like this because he's been there. he knows vladimir putin probably better than any american. he kept coming back to the point if you want to conduct diplomacy, you need to be able to see what your adversary is thinking so as to craft a response that -- assert your interests but also listens to his. we'll see tonight as secretary kerry meets with lavrov and tomorrow as we try to understand what happened. whether this is one of those moments where we went from very tense crisis with 50,000 to period of diplomacy. but that is the kind of thing kissinger was telling this audience, we need to do more of. >> isn't it henry kissinger we shouldn't engage with intervention until we know how we want it to end now how to

begin? >> i would suggest, i'm a big admirer of henry kissinger but there's another view represented by bob gates. including president obama. owe feels that what we have too do not only understand them but make them understand us. and that comes to action not just speeches. we need strategic game that shows putin over the long term, russia will suffer and he may be there for ten more years. that he will suffer. and gates' view you have to stand up to him now. my personal view is, i thought the president would make a surprise visit to kiev this week, just seemed to me that would rally people of ukraine, know that the americans were with them just as john kennedy and ronald reagan did in berlin. show putin we're not patties just to negotiate a way for you to get off ramp keep crimea. >> wouldn't there be a risk given that putin has suggested

it's the west and u.s. that have inspired what happened in ukraine if the president showed up there would it be -- >> i think it's really important to understand the mind of dictators but you have to show them what you got, what you're holding, what you're willing to do. >> i do think putin looking at what lies ahead if he were to invade eastern ukraine, was looking at unappetizing set of choices. i think the point that maybe better to consolidate this limited gain in crimea that that leaves ukraine as whole moving west which is a big change. i say this is not as if walked off with the prize, with the consolation prize. >> how would you feel at the end of the day he has crimea and crew ukraine is neutralized. can become member of the european union. >> what if you don't get either

one of those things. >> then i say ukrainians would be unhappy. >> michael hayden said this has got to be ukrainian's decision, elections in may. very vibrant competition going on right now if it looks like the u.s. is getting in the way, even of europe on this. i don't quite see where the gain is just to say that you stare down vladimir putin who has bee dove i willed three u.s. presidents. >> schieffer: what is happening in washington. they have basically closed up for serious business until after the elections. the senate in the wisdom has managed, now pretty close to passing that billion dollar aid package for ukraine. which they started on when president asked them to do that urgently they chose instead to go on vacation which i can't imagine that generally helped things very much. what is going to happen here, carolyn, between now and the election? >> the mid terms are beckoning.

you saw the story about the democrats that laid out agenda not that they expect to pass but issues they intend during mid term elections. and it looks like hopes for immigration reform are all but dead and just seems like everybody has sort of accepted maybe this is the new normal that they do very little. >> schieffer: no tax reform. also no entitlement reform we've gotten word on that. is that why we pay people to represent us in washington to spend a year? >> are not a fruitful time. >> some years people want to show that they have been legislating on behalf of the public's interest. what is sad that people seem to think sitting on your hands is a boat are approach. within you ask what is going to happen between now and the election i thought you may be

mean can 2016. i'm worried we're not going to get much done for the next three years. i don't know about you, you're closer toe this. >> also the sort of interest in the 2016 narrative to use that over used word is already overtaken this year. will hilary run and what is going on with republicans going down to vegas there. is way that is started to auto clipt everything else. that is a little distressing, too. also even number of retirements and people announcing they're not going to run again, even the middle of this very important discussion of intelligence, you saw this week. >> what's happening over and over again is the serious people are saying, i don't think it's worth my time any more which is an awful to me the worst indictment you can make of our political system right now that people think they can get more done outside the united states senate or when they're not the

chairman of a congressional committee. >> he's been a pretty successful legislator. made his committee work. rare one in congress that does, the bipartisan came out with surveillance metadata, i suggest way to get to a higher level, he sees this as preferable for the moment regioning for governor -- >> i sat down with people who recruit candidates to run for congress, to run for the house and the senate. usually prospective candidates will ask things like, how do you raise money or how do you deal with negative attacks. now they ask questions like, why do you do this? is there any joy? the whole notion of going to washington and making -- >> let me offer a counter intuitive. which is that the narrative of 2016 is raising among us, we're

are very interested in what jeb bush is going to do, hillary clinton. i don't think it's -- i would say that in order to speak to the american people the autopsy they did still holds. something, not much perhaps something at least talk has to happen on immigration reform, some conversation has to happen. reason why the white house is dancing so carefully about the roll out of the healthcare exchanges, when they have good news they run a lap or delay it or put it down the road because it matters. this tillly resonates with people and people think this affectser this lives and pocket books. i don't really think the politics of the thing can overwhelm everything for the next three years. i think that bit by bit perhaps. i do agree about -- >> i'm much more optimistic about the long term. not just serious people are leaving, there are lot of people coming up the younger generation who one day, would have gone to

washington. they are disinterested. they want to work in cities or think they can get things done. frankly they're right. >> have you run in to any grandmothers with hope their grandchild will be president some day? my grandmother thought that because all grandmothers in that day thought their grandson was going to grow up to be president. i don't hear anybody any more saying, boy, i hope my kid goats in to politics. >> somewhere bill clinton is saying it. >> let me talk to you about chris christie. he hired some lawyers to investigate him and they exonerated him. is that the end of this? >> i don't think it's the end. this week you saw something very encouraging, something very discouraging about chris christie who i think is unusually gifted politics. this week you saw this report despite limitations, there are many, give him clean bill of health. then you saw him come out and talk to reporters and suddenly

the belittling chris christie was back and more thoughtful self reflective chris christie vaporized. it made you wonder about to what degree did he learn anything here. those who support him thought this would be moment where he would come through and be a different -- those who supported him like the bombastic chris christie. they like the chris christie that told reporters off. he sets down with meagan kelly and goes to the republican jewish coalition talks tough then says something about occupied territories that gets him in trouble. that is what -- i am the tough talker, i'm going to tell you the truth. i don't know that anybody who was going to write highmori check before will be turned off now. >> my sense maybe talk about jeb bush, i suspect -- because people thought they were going to ride the chris christie horse now think it may be lame and

looking for somebody else. but what surprised me this week was the way this paid group went after the -- they threw her totally under the bus and treated her sexist kind of attack that you have to wonder if she's sitting there, her lawyer has been very tough about it in responsef she's sitting on anything she's going to go after -- >> there are two more investigations. >> i think that is the uncertain question. what does she know. >> what about jeb bush bush, every report -- he's in the going to do it. my sense is he's rethinking it. >> if enough people ask you to do something, you are a firm no, gosh, let me think about it. i think that christie did what a big powerful corporation does. hire bunch of lawyers, then he says in this sharp, let's move on. if he can make that work, that's what we'll see over the next ma or two. that's really a significant -- i

would say achievement. he had a huge scandal that people said it was the end. i would suspect you see some kind of -- >> there are two other investigations underway pretty serious ones. legislature, there's federal investigation. it's not clear where those might go or be more expansive than looking more narrowly. >> schieffer: thank you all so much. fun to talk to you. we'll be right back.

>> schieffer: well that the it for today. we hope you'll tune in to cbs this morning tomorrow for all the overnight developments on all of the things we've talked about this morning. we'll be back here next sunday.

[ male announcer ] we all think about life insurance. but when we start worrying about tomorrow, we miss out on the things that matter today. ♪ at axa, we offer advice and help you break down your insurance goals into small, manageable steps. because when you plan for tomorrow, it helps you live for today.

can we help you take a small step? for advice, retirement, and life insurance, connect with axa. for advice, retirement, and life insurance,

captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

appears to be fixed. but why won't anyone explain what happened? thousands of passengers were left ne -- and many end the problem at customs at sf o appears to be fixed but why will nobody say what happened? what a difference a day makes. this was the scene yesterday. passengers unable to get through customs at sfo for hours with no expalestinianination. everying is back to normal but that airport officials are not talking. don knapp is, here is at the airport. >> reporter: airport travelers may be getting used to enduring problems and forgetting about them when the flight is over but questions remain