>> schieffer: welcome back to face the nation and our civil rights discussion, we are here with nikole hannah-jones of propublica and the atlantic, michael eric dyson of georgetown, his latest book i may not get there with you, about the late martin luther king and evan wolfson of freedom to marry and tavis smiley of pbs. >> his upcoming book is death of a king, the real story of dr. martin luther king, jr.'s final year. let me just start with you, evan. so now it is gay rights. is that the next chapter of the civil rights struggle that has been going on for so long? >> i wouldn't call it the next chapter. i think it is part of the same struggle. i think what the struggle has president obama said is that the civil rights movement did so much to lay the foundation for and president johnston's work and all the millions of others was to create an america that

s'more perfect union for everybody and gay people are part of that everybody but as we just saw and heard and said we are not done with any of these fights on any of these fronts that overlap anyway and my blood boils when i see voter suppression, the assault on women's access to conception that we are debating that, so it is not a matter of this or that or that, civil rights is about the america we want for everybody, where everybody can participate and contribute. >> george bush was talking about closing the achievement gap, nikole, wha what does that meano you? >> i just find it interesting that we have so much discussion about chosing the gap without discussing that one thing that has been proven through history to close the gap which is integrating black and high poverty students in the middle class schools and the reason this works is that we know separate has never been equal in the history of this country and no more equal today than it was 50, 60 years ago, the resources follow white and middle class students and when you separate black and latino and poor

students from those resources you get n achievement gap, it is not rocket science, i guess. >> absolutely. and i think that those punishing disparities have to be acknowledged if you have 90 to $100 million school in the suburbs and experiments and high speed internet access and have one outcome and if you have got schools where there is barely any running water you will have another outcome and it is devotion of resources is not just material, but it is also emotional and also financial to be sure but it is also a kind of intellectual expression of empathy for those students and i think unless we address what tavis smiley talked about which is extraordinary poverty, you have a 14 percent black unemployment rate and escalating poverty for those concentrating in urban arenas and tension between other groups who are so to speak fighting for the limited resources, i am glad to hear we are in this together, i challenge african-americans to deal with homophobia to have

empathy and understanding with other groups we have a challenge as robert reagan did among l -- lgbt people the fact is we have to devote those resources especially the kind of legitimacy that white gay male folks have to issues of civil rights as well. >> it is not either or let me go back to to tavis, do you think in general, tavis president obama has done enough for african-americans? >> i think the short answer is, bob, that i can get to washington from los angeles a lot faster than i can get from washington back to los angeles, because coming to dc i have got a tailwind pushing me, coming back from dc to california i have ahead wing obstructing me, president obama clearly has had a head wind for most of his presidency and yet his racial agenda has been almost nonexistent, he has not respectfully done as much as he could have done even with the obstruction, as i scbi mated earlier, african americans even in the obama era lag behind in

every single leading economic indicator category, so i think the lesson of lby is you have to be willing to take a risk and be willing to make this issue a priority and since i am talking about presidents at the risk of being politically incorrect i was happy to hear former president george w. bush say what he said but that cannot, that statement about the bigotry of low expectations via the education gap cannot be diss connected from the policies and that is again the message of lbj 50 years later, bob we have to have corrective policies that help level the playing field, dr. king even after the passing of the civil rights act and the passage of the voting rights act was not satisfied as dr. dyson knows he talked about after all of his work he fretted hin integrate good a burning house and challenged us all to become firemen so that was the beginning, it was not the end and presidents have to push policies that help disadvantage people come up. >> well, now, george bush did put no child left behind into

effect, that was a bipartisan bill that had support from senator kennedy, from george miller in the house, one of the most liberal of the democrats in the house. do you feel that was a success or it is now, you know, congress can't find a way to refund or fund those programs now. what do you think, how effective do you think that was. >> that is interesting. the reason there is still conversation and infighting about no child left behind it is so imperfect in many ways, it may have been well intentioned going in but the way it was implemented and so the debate continues today about whether or not this program was successful or not. i think quite frankly it did not measure up, never mind the intention. the bottom line is that, you know, education has got to be a major priority, but you can't side always as the bush administration did if not always too many times, you can't start with the rich and the lucky, you

can't side with the powerful over the privileged and somehow think that magically the field is going to get leveled, dr. king put it this way, that the -- that progress does not roll in on the wheels of inevitability. we have to be intentional about this and if we are not intentional vis-a-vis our public policy debates then these people are never, these groups that are disenfranchised are never going to catch up. >> nikole let me go to you, you have a fascinating article coming out in the atlanta this week about what you talked about earlier about what you feel and what you found to be the resegregation of some schools. what do you think is the most important theme let's just say the administration, that congress could do right now? >> that is interesting question. to me, one of the fundamental flaws with no child left behind that we don't talk about is it is still attempting to make separate schools equal and still saying yes these schools are all

black, all black, all latino and poor but if we just put another resources in we can furnish the schools around there is almost no money devoted to programs that would help schools integrate, that would help schools break up the poverty that leads to the achievement gap, and so until there is a real conversation about that, because i think there is a fundamental miss understanding of brown. brown v education was not about resources, when brown came before the supreme court, seven states began a ruling was going to come against their interests had began to equalize funding, all of those types of tangibles, brown was about the separation in itself, and that in a nation with a history of a rational cast to separate black students from the mainstream was inherently unequal and we still don't want to talk about the separation. >> and i would just say part of the reason we have seen this shift on gay people and support for the freedom to marry is because gay people have been able to come out of the closet, nongay people who support gay

people, who are part of a family with gay people have spoken up and told their stories and it is bridging those gaps, showing the common connection that has enabled america to come to majority support for the freedom to marry in a relatively short period of time because that conversation and that reducing the separation and isolation has had that effect and one of the realin expirations for me out of this summit was in addition to the challenge to keep going was that people can do it, you know, it is easy to get very despondent and frustrated and fearful for the future of the country and yet we also have these examples from our history that we can come together and we can do better. >> what do you see on the horizon? are there any court cases we ought to be looking for? what is the situation? >> well, just this week we began a wave of cases that have now reached the federal appellate courts in which couples who have been denied the freedom to marry have challenged it, we won ten of ten federal court rulings over the last few months and began arguments in the tenth circuit and more to come as we

make our way hopefully to the supreme court to bring the country to national resolution. >> and what is interesting too, talking about the shifting of a paradigm but also the shifting of an atmosphere, lbj had a booming economy, number one, so that the great society was funded by an optimism in the economy that simply is pot present now and number 2, he had the privileges of white appeal to go to some of these senators and then really not only the privileges of white male but also his experience as a legislator to go in there and say look i am going to collar you and you better go the right thing, the obstructionism mr. smiley referred to regarding president obama is so replete that it discouraged even the inclination to do the right thing, not just what is necessary and right but the broader atmosphere as well. >> schieffer: it could not have been worse than the southern democrats who tried to block -- >> no doubt about it but what i am suggesting to you when they did the poll about the inclination of the american public to support it, that was much higher than expected, number one, but number 2 i am

saying, i am not saying the resistance wasn't there but barack obama faces in this case, you know, some resistance that lbj didn't, lbj knew expliciting white supremacy was the predicate for the resistance, we can't mention that now that some of the resistance president obama is facing now is racial base and the racial basis for the resistance who are calling it out are seen as somehow playing the race card, that is nonot to deny at all what tavis smiley says in terms of challenging this president to step up to the plate and articulate a vision that is both wholistic and comprehensive, that is transform if the to the african-american people in the asame way lbj did but it also it would ignore political context to deny the resistance that barack obama faces in a way we can't even public he articulate and examine as a matter of consensus. >> schieffer: all right. >> and of course it is not all on the president. >> we have to do some stuff as well. >> that's a very good way to end this. thank you very much for a fascinating discussion and we will be back with our political

panel in just a minute.

>> schieffer: and back now with our political panel, peter baker covers the white house for "the new york times", michael kerr son used to, gerson used to work in the white house for george w. bush and now a columnist for the washington post. >> le leigh gallagher is the edr of fortune magazine and also joined by frank rich of new york magazine who is in the cbs news broadcast center in new york this morning. peter, you were at this civil

rights summit in austin. it was kind of what i would say a remarkable event. >> it is and it is amazing here we are 50 years later that this is, in fact, something that republicans and democrats agree on. it is just the divisions at that time, four presidents different parties get together but what didn't come up as much is how to go forward. you did a panel on education which talked about that but president obama chose to use his remarks about lbj and talk about his heroism in the face of opposition but not to translate it to today. >> i will tell you what i found interesting about that, the white house in many cases has been very resentful when people have compared barack obama to lbj. >> yes. >> schieffer: and said he just didn't have the expertise that lbj had and we need lbj, and then a lot of the lbj people in the old days wonder when is barack obama going to finally mention the name lyndon johnson in public? >> right.

>> schieffer: which of course he did and went on at some length about it. >> what is the inside story on all of that? what happened here. >> he does resent the fact he is being compared to lbj, to hims in a different situation, to him lbj had a large democratic majority even after losing dozens of seats in the house, still had a large majority, president obama has a republican house and so on but he over came that to give a very unvarnished and very glowing testimonial to president johnson and in some ways to rebut his critic i think, he is trying to say look i get that, just like he encountered resistance to medicare, i have encountered resistance to the affordable care act and talk kded about being a relay swimmer, somebody who moves along without necessarily achieving in our own time and happy even if we get half of it. >> let's go on to what is going on in washington, again, kathleen sebelius has left, frank rich, do you think this is going to have any impact, the resignation of catherine

sebelius? we heard republican marsha blackburn say no we will still try to replace obamacare and still try to repeal it, it may take a while. where do you see this controversy going? because there is no question maybe they have gotten this thing worked out and maybe they haven't. we will find out. but it is going to be a political load, i think, for some democrats that are running for office in the south, come november. >> sure. first of all i think sebelius resignation means absolutely nothing politically and perhaps structural he even to obamacare. the it will be forgotten soon and have a fight over her successor, sort of a dog and pony show in congress to -- for republicans to haul obamacare over the kohl's once more, but the political equation for this year remains unchanging, we have an electorate that votes in mid terms that is very heavily

titles republican as it did in 2010 when it gave the democrats a shlacking, it is white, it is older, it is male. the republican party has to get that base to the polls. it is really about disliking obama or in some cases hating obama more than obamacare so if it weren't obamacare it would be something else, if obamacare were repealed tomorrow, it would still be the anti-obama campaign because that is what gets the base out. obamacare itself, he guess is it will become more and more settled law after this election, republicans are not going to repeal a law and replace it since they can't replace the things that people love the most, like children -- or young adults being covered by their parents, preexisting conditions and all the rest of it, so this is a political show that will go on through the mid terms, the democrats may well have a is lacking again and then we will move on from it .. >> do you think with that michael gerson? you used to work for a republican president.

>> i am more favorable to obama in this circumstance. this is a very good move to replace a symbol of incompetent, incompetence with one of the most respected members of the administration in a key post in his signature initiative. and to do it at the at a time where he still controls the senate and can move on this nomination. and the new -- the new director, secretary has a tough job, because this is a pretty good period for obama after the 7.5 million, but how we are going to see in the summer what the rates are going to look at for 2015, insurance companies will start, going to start to announce this and that could be a huge problem in the middle of this election and he is going to need someone to help with -- help to explain this. >> schieffer: well, let's talk about sylvia matthews burr well, over and omb, she does come with a pretty good yes, credentials,

do you think she is going to have a tough confirmation? >> i don't think so, she had a stellar resume, harvard, oxford, rhodes scholar, we have gotten to know her fortunately through her work at the wal-mart foundation and the gates foundation, and of course she spent many years in the clinton administration working at robert ruben's chief of staff and very instrumental in getting us out of the debt crisis in 1995, and so, and she was unanimously confirmed just a year ago, so i think i would say as a guess, that says the war wages on, we don't know what is going to happen, but everyone is saying wonderful things about her from larry summers to senator mccain and everyone inbetween. so things look favorable. >> let's talk a little bit about this whole issue of equal pay for women. here you have marsha blackburn said no we are leading the fight for equal pay for women but republicans blocked that in the senate. a lot of people think the administration, frank rich,

pushed this issue knowing they couldn't get it passed but they thought it would make a great issue in the coming campaign. what is your sense of that? >> i think you are right. i think that's right. with that said, what congressman blackburn said is incredibly disingenuous when she talks about how republicans have led on women's rights. she is right when she is talking about republicans of sort of prethe shipley era, they were indeed champions of the suffragettes movement and helped in many cases, including the bush family and the goldwater family were involved with the founding of chapters of planned parenthood, but this hasn't been true for decades and clearly they are on the defensive and the democrats are going to use every issue they can involving women to keep them on the defensive because they know how it worked and -- in the last election and they know how quickly republican office

holders are to say ridiculous things, there already have been a couple of congressmen who supported todd akin's views since january, since that election, even after the republican party made a big show of sort of having a sensitivity training for its members to stop talking about rape and conception in stupid and offensive ways, so, yeah, the democrats are going to goad them and there we are. >> schieffer: let me just -- i mean, women, every survey those women are out performing women every level from the third grade on up. we now have more women's in law school and more in medical school if memory serves me than men and we find this disparity women make 70 cents for every dollar earned by a man. are those figures, are those figures -- well, they are right, obviously but what do they actually mean? >> well, they are a little misleading for one reason. this is not an all things being equal sat it is not like for every man in this job that makes x, the

woman makes x minus ten or 20 percent it is not all things being equal because all things are not equal and what ask really happening here and the biggest reason for the gap, there is a gap, is because of the different choices that men and women make as they accelerate in their careers. and most namely the choice for women to have children, which no matter what, whether you are a senior executive out of a fortune 500 company or an hourly worker everywhere inbetween if a woman wants to do that, it indisputably is going to disrupt her trajectory and that is manager we, something we have not dealt with and that is one of the biggest issue. you see this in the data, the wage gap widens in industrials that reward long hours, like the finance or law or industries that have overtime and narrows at the younger generation, women their 20s to 30s, let's say, much less of a gap there because fewer people, fewer well have left yet this is the issue and what we are not dealing with. >> i think we can't just look at

this from the perspective of professional women. republicans have a real problem with single women, many of whom are near poverty and i think answering some of those concerns are, really need to be part of the republican response on these issues. they don't really speak to working class concerns, people that depend on a working, you know, programs, that meet their needs, so i think there are a bunch of different elements to this problem that republicans are not addressing several of them. >> peter, yesterday there was a big gathering of kind of republican want to be presidential nominees up in new hampshire, and donald trump, managed who mentioned jeb bush and brought boos from the crowd, you know, he talked about how bush had talked about how immigrants who come to this country, they are not committing a felony, it is an act of love, they are trying to come and help their families. do you think at this point that

jeb bush is the leading contender for the presidential republican presidential nomination? >> it is fair to say. i was down at the station when jeb bush spoke and he made those comments and he seems much more interested today than he did, say, three months ago. >> that is my sense of it. >> and all the people around him seemed to be moving moving in that direction but what he said is i want to get in only if i can avoid the vortex. >> donald trump showed him what the vortex could be right. >> if i run i am going to going to do it on my own terms, i care about immigration that don't sell well in a republican primary he may find that is not something that will work well for him. >> one thing for sure it is a wide open race on that side. >> i want to thank all of you and we will be right back with a little report on cherry blossoms. >> ,,

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mattress discounters good deed dogs helping dogs help people >> schieffer: well, that's it for us today and we have saved the best news for last. washington's cherry blossoms are in full bloom, which means, at least we hope it means that our long winter is finally over. that is our own norah o'donnell leading the celebration as the grand marshal of the annual cherry blossom festival parade.

there were times this winter when we thought this day would never come, and the snow and the rain would never end, but with fingers crossed we think it is finally done. we think. we hope. thanks for watching face the nation. >> but the energy bp produces up here creates something else as well: jobs all over america. thousands of people here in alaska are working to safely produce more energy. but that's just the start. to produce more from existing wells, we need advanced technology. that means hi-tech jobs in california and colorado. the oil moves through one of the world's largest pipelines. maintaining it means manufacturing jobs in the midwest. then we transport it with 4 state-of-the-art, double-hull tankers. some of the safest, most advanced ships in the world: built in san diego with a $1 billion investment. across the united states, bp supports more than a quarter million jobs. and no energy company invests more in the u.s. than bp.

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fire in san jose. good evening, i'm brian hac. and i'm ann notarangelo. firefighters have been on t scene of this five- alarm fe for about 2-hours. as you can see they are getting a handle on it. the smoke is t as intense as it was earlie but some streets in the aree ked off. blames billow from a building. >> you can see they are getting a handel on hand -- handle on it. it is not as intense as it was. take a look at chopper 5, over the scene, crews using a ladder truck to pour water on the flames. this is video from our san jose cam when the smoke was pouring from the building. no health advisory was issued, though. the fire started