from cbs news in washington, "face the nation" for bob schieffer, norah o'donnell. >> o'donnell: today on "face the nation." the pope celebrates his second easter and boston hopes for a safe marathon. first we'll get latest from south korea as the death toll from the ferry disaster rises as hundreds are still missing. then go to rome thousands gather for easter mass with the pope. he's led the catholic church to new found popularity. we'll talk about the pope affect with the archbishop of new york cardinal timothy dolan gets his message on this holy day. we'll also hear. >> i like jeb bush a lot. >> o'donnell: anybody else you'd like to see run for pot? a year after tragedy at the boston marathon we'll hear from

massachusetts governor duvall patrick about reparations for monday's race. talk about it all with peg knee noonan of the wall street journal, michael duffy of "time" and david ignatious of the "washington post" and john dickerson. 60 years of news because this is "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs good morning again, happy easter and happy pass over we'll hear from the archbishop of new york cardinal timothy dolan in a moment. first, breaking news out of south korea where the death toll now exceeds 50. and hundreds are still missing. seth doane is in south korea. >> good morning, that's right. the death toll has jumped significantly in part because finally divers are able to get in to that submerged ferry they are describing teams working in

murky water with heavy currents that are just pushing that submerged ferry back and forth but they have been getting in there. they have been pulling out bodies, some of them are students. we were with family members as those names were revealed. there is a growing frustration also among family members, we saw protests on the street today and scuffles with police as families members have protested the slow rescue. and late today we got in to the hospital where a crew member is being treated. we asked him about that slow evacuation he told us that he was waiting for evacuation orders from the captain. he said it was only the captain's decision to make that call. i asked what it was like when they finally did make that call. he said that the ship at that point was sloping so much it was just too difficult to reach most of the passengers. >> o'donnell: seth doane, thank you. in the vatican this morning, pope frances delivered his second easter message in

st. peter's wear. our allen pizzey is there and allen that was the pope's message today? >> morning. you may not believe it but the p,azza was sun drenched, about 150 -- 150,000. keeping with the theme he derided the immense wastefulness in the world when so many people go hungry. but the message to the city and the world he used that to plunge straight in to international diplomacy. called on the community to what he called, negotiate immediately, boldly negotiate a long overdue peace in syria. the pope and vatican are putting that message to the moment. this year the orthodox easter and the catholic easter fall at the same time. some of the hymns in russian then a segue in to call for piece in the ukraine. this pope has been noted for doing things off the cuff but he stayed right on his message

today. then when he did his final at the end, a tour in the pope mobile he didn't reach it and kiss any babies or hug anybody, he did the kind of gesture that make a lot of people listen to his message. his second message to the city and the world was very frances, if you will, extremely well received. >> o'donnell: thank you. earlier i sat down with man who many think could be the first american pope, cardinal timothy dolan the archbishop of new york. cardinal, thank you so much for joining us. >> i'm the one who is grateful. a blessed easter. >> o'donnell: less blessed easter to you. what is your message for holy week. >> what are you covering on the show? talking about ukraine, recall the slaughter in boston a year ago. you look at all the darkness, the dreariness, the reasons to be sad and defeated in the world today.

and what is passover talking about? the victory of good over evil. light over darkness, life over death. we believe jews and christians believers hold fast to the truth that god has the last word. >> o'donnell: would have been doing polling at cbs news for decades, we just found in our last poll that now more people than ever feel that the church is in touch with their needs. >> good to hear. >> o'donnell: why do you think that is? >> in practical level for us catholic has to be pope frances. he is ignited the imagination of the world. for once finally it's almost like people are saying, wow, there's reason to cheer. there's reason to hope. there's a good guy -- the good guys are winning in the church. people want the church to succeed. people want religion and faith and spirituality to work. people in general are on the side of virtue and goodness and everything that's noble and decent. within you see somebody like pope frances that can tap in to

that and just seems to emanate that and call for -- coalify forth from everybody. people take a second look at religion say, wow, maybe belief is worth it. >> o'donnell: what is it about pope frances? >> i wish i knew. i wish he could bottle it because i'd order a case. because i need it. you know what i think it is, two words, sincerity and simplicity. we have a world that can detect fraud. we have a world that is a little tired maybe of marketing and polls and pr stuff. and here you got a guy who is just so genuine and simple and sincere, he doesn't need anybody script him or any prose he just does it with a genuineness and naturalness that people are shaking their head, this guy is real thing. >> o'donnell: a question whether it's a lot of style and matched by substance in terms much reforms of the church. he has, for instance, apologized for predator priests in the

sexual abuse scandal but not yet met with victims of sexual abuse by priests. should he? >> i think he should. i think he will. pope benedict did. i think he will. we got to give him some time. he knows that's a towering problem. showing us, nora, you remember last year, i think you were there, during the conclave and congregation ahead of time. those ten days before we actually sealed our seles in the college of cardinals melt in confidence we spoke our mind. and jorge listened intently and now we know for sure because he's doing a lot of the stuff that the cardinals said, this has got to be taken care of. the cardinals spoke about the sexual abuse of minors, we cannot run from this, we cannot deny this, this is a hideous deep wound in the life of the church and must be addressed. he's doing that. >> o'donnell: also saw pope frances wash the feet of 12 people including a muslim and a woman. how remarkable is that? >> isn't that beautiful?

you know where that comes from. the last subpoena mr. that was on holy thursday. i did that at st. patrick's i had 12 young people. >> o'donnell: last year was first time he did a woman. >> you're right. you are on to something. when pope frances, i want these 12 people to symbolize every religion both sexes, every background. to think that he did it at a prison. here is the pope who we believe represents jesus on earth, we catholics believe that. kneeling down and washing the feet and kissing the feet of the 12 people. powerful gesture. >> o'donnell: interesting to hear the pope say in mass that he occasionally feels bored or lonely. when was the last time you heard a pope talk about loneliness. >> isn't that beautiful? yeah, he is -- actually, norah, when is the last time we heard pope speak about themselves. i like to attribute he's not only genuine good human being he's a jesuit. part of the jesuit spirituality,

jesuit superior sounded by st. ignatious. part of the data, part of the stuff of our prayer and medication and our talk of the god are our own experiences. when he talks about his grandma, talks about growing up. when he talks about falling asleep. when he talks about boring homilies. those are good things, most people in the world are saying, oh, wow, i'm glad i'm not by myself. even the pope falls asleep when he says his prayers. >> o'donnell: what changes do you think the catholic church will make. >> change, reform, transformation, big word, which jesus often talked about. first and foremost always talk about what, inside in the human heart. conversion of life, going from selfishness to selflessness. going from sin to grace. going from hate to love. going from bitterness to forgiveness. that is the kind of change

conversion transformation that is at the heart of the christian message. you've haired pope frances say that. first and foremost i got to change myself and then i got to call all of you to the authentic change, invitation the conversion of heart that is at the core the message of jesus. that's the basic change. but i think we'll see some change in structure. we already see a change in style. you use that word, i'm glad you did -- >> o'donnell: the question that catholics many have in watching the church is, there's been a styleistic change, yes, we've seen public opinion change and people feel more connected to the church. now comes the question about what real reforms will the church make? i hear from you that internal, that there aren't any machines for any changes at the church. >> we can't diminish that. you got to remember, norah, christianity like judaism is a revealed religion. it's inherited. we believe that god has told us certain things about himself and

ourselves. and we can't tamper with that. now we can redirect the way we teach it or express it. boy, this pope is doing that on steroids. but to the substance of it, can't. can't. sometimes we wish we could. i wish i could change, for instance, the large teaching on forgiveness. there are certain people in my life i find it very difficult to forgive but i can't change it. because it comes right from jesus, he calls us to forgive people. i wish he didn't. i got to try to change my life to meet up to his teaching not to tamper his teaching. >> what can you not forgive? >> better not tell you. i'm using that as an example of a very tough teaching of jesus. most of the time we think of the tough teachings that we want to change. sexual stuff. divorce and remarriage or abortion or homosexuality. those are the things most of the time.

when you look at jesus and frances is reminded us one of the real tough teachings gives us, faith in him, life got tough. hope in him, even when things are very depressing. forgiveness, love, mercy, reaching out to those who do everything in the world not to deserve our love. those are tough teachings that i wish sometimes jesus would soften but he's not and i got to pass those on. i can't tamper with them. >> o'donnell: we've seen remarkable change in the united states in terms of public opinion and legal rights for gay marriage. do you believe that civil unions are wrong? >> here is what i believe. i believe that marriage is a given by god, because i'm a man of faith. but also in the human psyche and human reason in the natural law that marriage at it's essence is between a man and woman forever lovingly, faithfully to bring forth new life of children. i believe we can't camper --

tamper with that. would i do things to protect the civil rights of those who are unable to live up to that, you bet i would. whether that's insurance, became housing, whatever. do i believe that society could be affected negatively if we tamper with the definition of marriage, yeah. that's just not as man of faith, that's just as i like to think a loyal american that if we tamper with that essential of human relationships, marriage, we're sooner or plater going to come to regret it. >> you've soon the polling. most americans now, majority of americans even republicans. >> you know what, we're used to being out of step. like immigration, capital punishment, the church is out of step on that, too. the polls show that people aren't with us. we keep saying well, our job is to teach it to call people, try to convince people to invite people. even when polls are against us we got to keep at it. >> o'donnell: i notice that

you invited former governor jeb& bourbon your radio program. >> he's going to come to town to help us plug our catholic schools. >> o'donnell: are you pro jeb bush? >> i like jeb bush a lot. whether as presidential candidate or not i don't know personally. but i sure admire him. especially appreciate the priority of education and immigration. >> o'donnell: why do you admire him? >> because he -- i found him as i looked what he did in florida, norah, i found him remarkably innovative. like for education with franklin rooseveltfuls for the economy. he said, let's see what works. we can't do business as usual. we got to help our public schools. we know that they are terribly flawed. what can we do improve them? and he experimented he went out on a limb. a lot of things -- things began to click in florida such that he's rightly proud of the progress that he made in education. and, if you don't mind me blowing our own horn here, he says one of the best things

going is catholic education. >> o'donnell: champion certainly of catholic education. would you like to see him run for president? >> i think he'd bring something, yeah. he'd be good. >> o'donnell: anybody else you'd like to see run for president? >> pope frances. [ laughter ] >> o'donnell: i want to talk about one of the cases that is before the supreme court known as the hobby lobby case. they are considered whether private companies should be exempt from the affordable care act known as obamacare whether to provide contraceptive coverage to their employees. where do you stand? >> i would be inspired by the hobby lobby. i think they are just true americans. look, the genius of america is that religious convision affect the way we act. america is at her strongest, at her best when people can bring everything in to the public square, including the moral, ethical, spiritual and religious convictions.

and the government should never force us to do anything that is contrary to those deepest held convic shuns. they're fighting for that, where they sure have my admiration. >> o'donnell: doesn't that set a dangerous precedent, a private company can usary ridge on to deny benefits. >> they're arguing that. the supreme court in the past if i understand correctly said, in general, the bias is on the side of the rights of conscience and religious liberty. may be occasions when that is so detrimental to the common good that it will outweigh it. is this one of them? is the ability to buy contraceptives that is now -- that are now widely available, all you have to do walk in to a 7-eleven or any shop on any street have access to them. is that right to access those and to have them paid for, is that such a towering good that

it would suffocate the rights of conscience, i don't think so. but i hope the supreme court agrees. >> o'donnell: monday is anniversary of the boston marathon. in a year since, what has inspired you about the people of boston? >> well, from a new york tore compliment boston, but let me. i found myself cheering on my friend, cardinal shawn o'malley the archbishop of boston, who expressed such gratitude for boston. boston has risen up. it's an easter story, it's a passover story. pass ton has risen up from carnage, from death from, darkness to the most nauseating type of attack on a civilized society and an event that brings people together. they have risen from that. and the victims of that, their families, whole boston community has reminded us once again the message of easter. life is stronger than death. hope is strong are than despair.

we're not going to let this evil, we're not going to let this evil destroy us. life goes on. and stronger and grittier than before because we've come through that darkness. i thank them for that. >> o'donnell: indeed, thank you. >> good being with you. >> o'donnell: we'll be back in one minute. i've always had to keep my eye on her...

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us from boston. good toe see you thank you for joining us. >> i'm glad to be with you, nora. may i just say thank to you his eminence for the very gracious comments about the spirit of this place how we have come together and recovered from last year's terrible tragedy. >> o'donnell: we're all thinking about boston. let me ask you how safe will it be more monday's marathon? >> very safe. somebody said may be the safest place in america tomorrow. but i will say that we've tried to strike a balance between enhanced security and preserving the family feel of this day. one commentator described the marathon as a 26.2 mile long block party. and there are no strangers here. we want to maintain that spirit but also have considerably more rig or because of the attention that the marathon got last your. the tragedy that ensued and the

demands that we think are reasonable for enhanced preparations. >> what specific changes have been made since last year? >> some i can talk about, some i won't. there i will with be considerably more police presence. there are tactical units strategically placed at different points along the route. there are a number of undercover people and assets that will be deployed. we had a table top exercise, this is basically a practice session, day-long practice session, 450 people in the room representing every state, federal, local law enforcement and first responding agency and municipal officials from the towns and cities along the route. we practiced different scenarios. i think we're very, very well prepared. >> o'donnell: but despite some of the safety assurances, last week there were two backpacks that had to be detonated. how confident are you that something like this won't happen

again? >> well, i feel quite confident. i think in fact it was the training and preparation of the team that identified those backpacks when they did. one was a hoax as you know, not a very funny one. and the other was a camera bag. we are not permitting backpacks at or near the finish line or in those last several hundred yards. i think there is going to be a sensitivity that many of the spectators have to people bringing parcels closer to the race. i ask that people respect that. >> has the boston police department or anyone in state law enforcement received specific threat information from the fbi about tomorrow's race? >> no. we haven't. the intelligence folks often talk about so-called chatter in intelligence channels there has no been elevated chatter as they say. we're not taking that as a sign

to sort of stand down. we're very alert. we're very prepared. and we're assuring people as much as we can that it will be a fun day and a safe one. >> o'donnell: i know boston has successfully hosted a major sporting event since last year's attack of course the world series, everything went well at fenway park. but securing fenway park seems a little easier than securing a 26-mile route. how do you do that? >> it's a different game. the head of our emergency management team ed he would take a stadium over marathon route any day because there are certain defined he can its. confined space. this is considerably more challenging. but we also don't want to have it a race through a militarized zone. it's about striking a pennsylvania i think we have struck that balance. >> o'donnell: let me ask you about some of the runners involved in this race. last sunday "60 minutes"

profiled shalane flanagan, the hometown favorite. >> yes indeed. >> how important would it be for boston to have a native win on monday? >> well, we're so proud that she's running and so excited about her prospects. i think you'll be able to hear the roar all the way to washington, d.c. when she goes by. >> o'donnell: we will be there on monday. we're cheering everyone on and hoping well for a very safe marathon, governor, thank you for joining us. >> great to be with you, happy aster. >> o'donnell: we'll be right back.

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>> o'donnell: some of stations are leaving us now for most of you we'll be right back with a lot more "face the nation." stay with us.

>> o'donnell: wall couple back to fakes the nation. now for our political all-star panel mike i will did you have file deputy managing editor for "time." cover story is finding god in the dark. peggy noonan of the wall street journal. david ignatious is couple nest for the "washington post" and of course john dickerson our cbs news political director. we've got lot to talk about this morning. there was some violence overnight in ukraine, pro-russian protesting our holly williams filed this report. >> ukraine's pro-russian separatists in an uneasy stand off with the country's government. here in eastern ukraine, the separatists occupied public buildings around ten towns and cities and some of those buildingsing were seized by masked gun-wielding militants.

here in the town there was a fatal shooting last night which reports that at least one person dead, still not clear who is responsible. the fear here is really that this will spiral in to civil war and this is clearly also a test of russia and whether moscow will continue to intervene militarily in the neighboring country. thursday the u.s., usual a, ukraine and eu reached, offered separatists amnesty and leave the building they havoc cupid but that hasn't happened. and ukraine government and u.s. continue to blame moscow stirring up unrest here. vladimir putin has denied orchestrating this insurgency also said if there is violence here russia has the right to intervene militarily in ukraine. holly williams, cbs news. >> o'donnell: david, let's talk about this growing violence, diplomatic efforts,

what does this say about second kerry's efforts? >> obviously they're not going as far or as fast as he has hoped, typical of today. there was easter truce that was violated in eastern ukraine. there are two bad things about what secretary kerry negotiated last thursday in geneva and two bad things. first, negotiation was done with a gun to the head of the ukrainian government. russia troops were masked, maybe 40,000, just across the border, it was not a normal negotiation. second thing, you have to say that few days later that agreement has not led to the stand down of forces that was discussed. the good thing is that russia has begun talking to the ukrainian government. that is the only way that this crisis is going to move towards some resolution. got to be done by the ukrainians with rush a. even today with today's bad news that still a prospect. >> o'donnell: what does that say about president obama?

>> administration said if further actions by the russians and putin take place it will up the kind of sanction, is that have been talking about and willing to actually put in to play. what is unclear whether putin has to go further. by taking over ten to 15% of ukraine that's about what they control in paramaltier has controlled. mute tinny fecktively paralyzing the nation by controlling all of it he sort of shuts down the autonomy of the rest of it. he may not have to go further. because he's -- at the moment taken kiev the capital of ukraine. away from democracy, away from economic reform and away -- >> i'm fascinated by this relationship or lack of relationship between president obama and president putin. peter baker reports that the president's advisors concluded that the president will never have constructive relationship with mr. putin. peggy, what are the consequences of that? >> you have to wonder how that

works as a strategy. a strategy as well as essentially we're not speaking or we're giving up. i know or at least it's been in the press a lot that putin and president obama have spoken on the phone a number of times during this crisis. i guess the president feels that going no where but that seems to me a side bar of the essential question, the essential question is, what strategy is the united states going to adopt as putin is on the move. obviously this is not just an immediate crisis that is going to be a long running one. you can see where it's going in the future. i also wondered, connected to that report if i may say your report from the ground, the extent to which the pro-russian separatists are in fact a

russian covert operation, i would think substantial but i'm not on the ground there, i don't know. >> administration certainly thinks they are basically a part of the russian government. what's interesting this week was as this agreement was being put together in geneva the president was already saying, i'm not sure this is going to follow through. he was skeptical in the moment because not just an agreement with anybody -- not just an agreement with putin himself and he sticks to it, that's the only thing that anybody can be sure of. but nobody can can sure of what he's going to d. the question is peter baker mentioned containment. this there is a global ideology fight. it's a containment. the damage that putin can go as he goes about. the question is, okay, you can try to contain what about the areas and david knows most this, syria and iran where we have interested where we need to deal with russia. >> a great point. >> the white house feels to the extent that putin still wants to

be seen as a figure on the global stage. he really has to continue to work with the u.s. in syria, certainly on weapons disarmament and probably also in the iran negotiations. what i hear from the negotiators who have been meeting recently is that the russians have continued to be part of those talks. basically obama thinks that putin, although he looks strong, looked like a bully in this period, is he's now aroused all the europeans to be much more skeptical of him. he's reinvigorated nato. there will be nato military movements i think the u.s. is going to put troops in to the baltic states which we promised in the '90s we would not do. so all those things are against putin's interests i think president obama saying, look, vladimir, are you really that happy with what you've ended up with here? you have a volatile, used to be quiet state, now a state in

great tour e-mail. >> o'donnell: turn some something dark to light. we saw pope frances this morning in st. peter's squares holding easter mass. a sunny day, there more than 100,000 packed to hear his easter mass. peggy, what about this pope frances affect? >> i think it is considerable. i found very interesting in what i felt was a remarkable interview with cardinal dolan this morning that you had. i found it very interesting that you pressed the cardinal on what real substantive changes has frances made. we all know he is irrepressible and he's warm. that's a matter of style, i also think there's something more going on with frances and he showed us that in one of his first interviews when he became pope and referred to the world

as a field hospital in the middle of a battle. he sort of said, we are going to stop doing these narcissistic arguments about things that obsess the west. we're going to speak of christ in the world and his healing embrace in the field hospital. what he meant was christ' love. that's the kind of shift in emphasis that is more than style. >> he puts his money where his mouth s. we're used to seeing images of the pope in the so-called pope mobile, the big gatherings. but when he goes down and sees a man whose anyways is covered in tumors and embraces him, that is acting in the field hospital and also for catholics all of ha res nation. st. frances himself, scared of lepers embraces a leper. that is the message of christ. not just saying the right things he's doing its religion you can

use that is what is so appealing. >> i asked him about gay marriage and civil unions, the core the church is not going to change. there is reform needed in the vatican. many reforms. not yet clear what they will be. >> he referred to the pope as sort of -- talked about his simplicity. the word that describe is humility. of course that is reversal of power. that is the powerful ministering what's interesting the pope has done, took place in lenten mass a few weeks ago where about to take confession from a number of people. instead of doing that he stops, goes -- breaks away from what was clearly the plan goes to a normal priest at normal confession and takes in front of the throngs of st. peter's takes confession himself as a man. >> so touching. >> that is a message of mercy and forgiveness that he's not

only trying to teach his priests because he thinks they haven't been so good at that. also the rest of us. >> he has shown the world what leadership is. he's shown the difference that a new personality viewed with deep faith can do to reinvigorate an institution. the fact that on this easter sunday the world is talking about frances as somebody has changed the way we think about things. as expressed so well by cardinal dolan in talking about it. that's a big change in the world. >> o'donnell: you heard him make sort of endorsement for yep bush running for president and it's a nice way to segue to jeb bush in 2016 politics there's lots to talk about on that front. what is biggest impediment for jeb bush to get in this race? >> there's a competition for the biggest impediments. he has a few. let's focus just narrow one, one

is he hasn't won a race since 2002. things have change add lot in politics. he is not necessarily a happy warrior kind of fellow. and presidential campaigns right now would test the happiest warrior. hubert humphrey would be in tears. the constant pinging ever the presidential campaign he would be attacked on both his family legacy, not just about iraq but about his father as supporting of tax increases, his boar's lack of spending restraint, conservatives don't like that. that's why bush name is booed in new hampshire. common core, educational standards that cardinal talked about education. this is an issue that a loft conservatives don't like these national standards. there are issue reasons, family reasons and also just personal reasons that he would have some hurdles. but there's also no front runner of the party and he also -- he has a name and so he would have a shot.

>> you now, someone talking about this before the show, people who know jeb really well say that he has gone from being almost dismissive of this moment, of this round, this cycle to being literally more, i don't want to say coy, less dismissive. and that is a serious consideration. >> o'donnell: also some news this week that could affect the 2016 presidential race but it came from chelsea clinton. >> mark and i are very excited that we have our first child arriving later this year. [ applause ] >> o'donnell: then hillary clinton tweeted this will be my most exciting title yet. grandmother to be. most exciting title yet. >> what could she possibly be thinking about? hillary clinton is the

presumptive favorite for the democratic nomination in the 2016. to an extent i think is fascinating, should be worrying for democrats. if hillary clinton announced tomorrow she doesn't want to run or something else happened, who would there be? it's really -- look at the republican field there are a lot of smart, young, dynamic republicans with something to say. you look at democratic side, it's very hard to find somebody who would be there ready to move in. that should worry democrats. >> i think so. as long as nobody knows what she's going to do and so nobody can come up, break through. who dazzles you. i would say about jeb bush, by the way. there is a certain sense that i have that maybe he himself doesn't know if he's going to move forward but he knows the eyes of the press and political establishment are on him and going to use that focus to

advance the things he wants to advance. immigration, common core, education, et cetera. that may be going on a little bit there. >> o'donnell: on hilary we learned her book is going to be out in june. the publisher is a division of cbs news, here is the cover right here. it's called "hard choices." >> i moon, better than "under pressure." this is both -- if you're going to run you want to get your story down on paper before you run. so this is both -- if she's going to run, getting her store rear out. also a kind of -- what is a president going to do? they make hard choices. it's kind of like, here, i've already done it. remember that famous ad the 3:00 a.m. phone call that she ran against barack obama, within the call comes, he has no experience. actually at the time she hasn't had a lot of 3:00 a.m. phone

calls. now she's had some if she's running that is what this book is about. i've been through -- made hard, tough choices, i'm ready to go. she does it -- the name of the book is "hard choices. may or may not have anything to do with running for president. and she won the chelsea primary. to have a grandchild, run that. i think we can go on to the next contest. >> o'donnell: the publisher describing this as inside account of the crises, choices and challenges that clinton faced during her years as secretary of state. but how important and how much do you think this book will signal of what she wants to do in the future? we already know that she's running for president. >> we're assuming that she has that fire in her that her husband certainly had and still has. by publishing this book and my sense talking to her is that she really is going to tell us what it was like to be secretary of state. >> o'donnell: in ben gage.

>> she's putting already chips that she was strong and effective lieder. not just former first lady or former senator she made these hard choices. the problem with that is that if you compare secretary clinton, who i think was ha solid secretary of state, with her successor, john kerry, you see what a dynamic secretary of state, didn't just make hard choices, went out there day after day trying to make diplomatic agreements and that comparison i think -- she can say, i was a som id secretary but compared to what kerry attempted she just wasn't at that level. >> the purpose of this book, the pinging off what david is saying, part of the purpose is to refute the idea out there that secretary of state, she was not a significant player in the

creation of u.s. foreign policy, she was a person put on a plane and sent to manila to be on "good morning manila" it was different from secretaries of state in the past and i think she's going to try to say in this book, no, no, i was very involved in the bubbling up and creation of u.s -- >> o'donnell: reveal entire chapter on iran which is -- i think going to make to the point did make some progress. >> that's one of the most interesting parts of this book, my guess, she will tell us how the initial secret contacts with iran began under her secretary-ship with her mandate that will be news. >> o'donnell: all right. >> don't forget, some things to answer for, former secretary of defense bob gates has written a book that was critical of her. particularly about her political look at certain issues overseas, we'll see how she answers those because those will be read side by side. >> o'donnell: more to talk about we'll be right back with

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>> o'donnell: we're back with more. one of the major issues is obamacare and president was championing the fact that eight million americans have signed up for health insurance and he gave this advice to democrats running for re-election. >> i don't think we should apologize for it. i don't think we should be

defensive about it. i think there is a strong, good, right story to tell. spend all their time talking about repealing a law that's working, that's their business. i think what democrats should do not be defensive but move on and focus on things that are really important to the american people right now. >> o'donnell: john, not be defensive but say democrats should run on it? >> no, he didn't. in february he spoke to the democrats in the house who were having a retreat. he said in knife to ten years we will look back on the law as monumental achievement. some people thought, but our actions are in november not five to ten years. they want the president to give them air coverage. it should be noted that february the numbers weren't as good as they look right now. what the president is doing is hoping foes democrats running, it's a given cover. perhaps they can neutralize this issue. i won't see a lot of democrats look at the senators running for re-elections in republican

states. not rushing out to harold the eight million sign ups. but they hope if the temperature is lowered on affordable care act they can talk about their issues. they can get some oxygen to talk about their opponent and how bad their opponent s. the president is doing work in that way democrats are happy the see them do and they're all very happy to have something good to say after many days of not having something so good to say. >> o'donnell: but it's hurt the democratic party in this year's election, no doubt. >> because the polls are against obamacare and launch was so did disastrous. the eight million members that they announced is more than even they had expected. it's not exactly clear how of them are new health insurance, how many will stay with the program and actually pay the premiums. that will be probably some weeks if not months before we know that. that is another reason why i think democrats probably aren't excited about running on this this year.

the president is talking about that much and we'll see what the party which has own troubles in the fall will do. >> i think one of the questions is, how many people still to this day, it's hard to get the number simply lost their insurance in the past few months and how many of those were, if you lost your insurance, you were really told you got to go on the exchange. the number, to say eight million can suggest eight million got brand new insurance and to give the impression that they have not been insured, i don't think that quite works. i also think americans have day by day familial company orient sense of how this thing is working, obamacare. i don't think they feel, wow, this is great, lieutenants do that one again. i think it remains as a blanket, suppressing for democrats in the

coming election. i think it is now, i suspect it will be in the future. also think the decision the president just made on keystone pipeline will probably be difficult for democrats running for the senate, especially ones most vulnerable at the moment. decision to delay keystone. i think done the party a lot of favors. >> he's looking to his own legacy. i think what john cited his comments to house members says it all in five or ten years this will look great and i'll look great. most important number i thought that came out last week was that the estimate of costs of medical care gone down by hundred billion over next umpteen years. if obama can succeed in that aspect of the affordable care act, driving down the costs of this wildly expensive system he will have done something important. the problem that is going to hurt for a lot of people.

costs are cut. access to things, sort of either way, may be the right thing to do but in terms of politics hard to see a benefit. >> o'donnell: thanks to our political panel. happy easter, happy passover to everyone. thank you all. we'll be right back.

>> o'donnell: that's it for us today. bob will be back next week. thank you for watching "face the nation."

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