>> o'donnell: welcome back to "face the nation" we turn now to our political panel, john heilemenn from bloomberg news, michael cruelly the senior foreign affairs correspondent for politico and cbs news political director john dickerson is here. we had interesting week this past week in terms of president

obama firing his defense secretary, chuck hagel as he submitted his resignation. john, let's start with that issue do you think we'll see the president name a new choice to be defense secretary shortly? >> i talked to somebody who is involved in this process right now, he said it could happen within next several days. the names we've heard are jay johnson head of the homeland security, ashton carter who is deputy secretary of defense. what is interesting about this, criteria will be somebody who has power within the building, can work within the pentagon also is trusted by the president. the position of secretary of defense, the fourth this president has had is such fascinating to look at extent to which president wants to get his hands involved on detail level but then also no president can be in charge and control of everything. first meeting at the pentagon president said to then secretary of state bob gates, i think of myself as parallel parking.

in other words i'm coming in there, two wars going on, host of hold over policies from the previous administration, i just want the fit myself in between what is going on. now you've had three secretarys of defense all leave saying they felt micro managed like the white house was controlling everything. new person who comes in as to figure out whether they're go to have autonomy or seen just as puppet of the president. >> o'donnell: michael, is this sort of bellyaching by people who don't like the process that goes on or is the process really dysfunctional? >> well, as i think some of both. what you see is gradual centralization of foreign policy not just national security military, but foreign policy in this white house. to degree that people say is unprecedented where few people in the white house, national school and advisor susan rice and white house chief of staff who has foreign policy background really have their hands on the controls here in way that drives people in the outer orbit a little bit crazy.

but this is true since the beginning of this presidency. people have the same gripes about, for instance, rice's predecessor, i think it's exacerbated as one of my sources told me in my reporting, whenever the pentagon is involved in military they want total autonomy and any white house role drives them crazy. more airstrikes we're doing, that kind of complaining you're going to hear. >> o'donnell: john, associated press had wonderful story about micro management by white house of the pentagon saying when bob gates went over to afghanistan, went to special operations command he saw there was phone line that went directly back to the white house. bypassing the chain of command he ripped the phone line out he said white house wants to talk to anybody they can go through me first. is this about personality or is this really affecting policy? like real policy some have charged. >> first of all everything mike said is true. this is -- not just foreign policy but general white house. this is unusually close team

around the president. we've observed this over the course of the last years. he likes to have small number of advisors, likes to have people he trusts close to him. anyone who is outside that inner circle has a hard time getting things done. that is the case for all three of the secretaries of defense all of whom were people of great resumes, great stature, but bob gates, leon panetta all had hard time making their way in to the inner circle having his trust. there is also this macro picture, really managing the pentagon maybe not the most monstrous challenge for anybody in the cabinet right now when foreign policy and national security is going so strikingly awry, i think that the greatest defense secretary ever would have had hard time satisfying all the constituencies in the white house and on the world stage. >> o'donnell: if ashton carter is named to be defense secretary we be someone who works closely with the white house in terms of their micro

managing? is he going to want more you a ton me what is the calculus. >> they all want autonomy because they won't be able to work within the institution of the pentagon unless they tar car. >> o'donnell: he's been number two at the pentagon. >> also in charge of weapons, he knows the budget. budgets are a big part of this both who gets what they want in the building but what administration wants to do. the less sexy part of this but important part of it. one part about micro managing here is all presidents want to micro manage because they get blamed in the end. and so when something happens and well, the president was asleep at the switch, they have to be able to say, if i'm going to get blame for being asleep at the switch i better be at the switch. you can't be at all switches because that diminishes the purpose. >> o'donnell: what is wrong with having with the president saying i want it done this way, policy being very clear. how is it affecting the policy against isis? >> i had a long conversation with senior very smart pentagon

official couple days ago who said you guys in the press are obsessed with this micro managing, it's annoying, chews up huge amounts of staff time. at the end of the day show me the connection from a to b that street screwing up our policy. now that said, the policy needs more clarity right now. i think there's consensus even within that inner circle of the president that we're not exactly sure how our strategy to defeat isis intersects with civil war, are we going to defend these rebel forces to take on syrian regime if assad starts dropping barrels. will it authorize strikes against syrian forces. that is all not figured out yet. it's not clear that that is because they're having too many meetings and wants to call 100 meetings on every question. but that would be the problem. no one made that connection yet. >> one of the things that is frustrating that people in the white house particularly chief of staff is that over the last

year in particular, there have been series of leaks out of the pentagon. more stories appear in the "new york times" and other places, this is time-honored business. the people in the pentagon, one of the ways they do that by making sure stories get planted in the press that limit the president's ability to maneuver on these issues. >> o'donnell: i remember this on the troop draw down in afghanistan how many forces to leave in afghanistan. >> on the isis things, syria where stories have come out at pivotal moments that clearly come from within the military that have been set the framework who is within the realm of possible. one of the thing they felt very strongly that chuck hagel did not do great job from their point of view at containing that. fact that did he not have the kind of institutional knowledge of the pentagon was huge hinderance. in order to tame the pentagon which is part of the of what the defense sect you need to know the building, ashton carter may know it better. >> definitely knows it better. >> another important thing is

this person has to gets confirmed ashton carter when he left the pentagon, john mccain incoming chairman of the armed services said glowing things that is helpful for administration try to get somebody through. >> o'donnell: let's turn to some of the challenges that president obama is facing with the final two years in office. first of course ferguson, john, you were down there. should the president go to ferguson, do you think he'll go there? >> yes, i think he should go. i don't know if he will go i'm surprised he hasn't gone already. one of the cases where the president has -- felt imposed tight rope on matter of race. pretty much through the entire six years. he's no longer facing re-election she be freed from r where he can go -- i think what the president has been has been in the relatively right place. but the power involved in going there addressing what are really complex and volatile set of

issues that he's uniquely positioned to speak to. powers of him doing that in the community beyond the value to the community itself. i think it would have great value to soothe some of what has gone there in terms of the issue and country, this is not just ferguson, it extends between african americans and police departments he could make a powerful careful case in way no one else could would be most powerfully done from there. >> the challenge as you say for the president to get -- make that case to be in position to speak where he's not seen as advocate for one of the two sides. either law enforcement or the protesters. so they are trying to balance the problem he had, the very night, speaking in measured, deliberate about systemic issues that were happening long before the confrontation that led to this. how can you have that while they are still smoldering going on. on the other hand if you don't

speak to the moment then it dissipates you miss the moment. that always been challenge for this president. on this issue of race, of course, has particular set of challenges. but there's always been the question with this white house and this president, when do you speak to the moment and when you let fact come in. because one of the great challenges in all public discourse right now is too much heated fast talk that bends everything out of shape. always seen himself as person who can fly above that speak to the reality not just hot moment. >> people will say that one will remember speech he gave talked after the trayvon martin verdict is high point in this area of his administration. after the verdict he was able to make that speech. now not going to be a verdict in this case doesn't seem like he could not have said anything that strong before there was ruling by this grand jury. now opportunity to do that. >> i get the sense there are people who sort of see the president as having a kind of

racial activism side of him that he doesn't unleash also possible that he is figure we know so well on this issue very deliberative. it goes back to the speech on race he gave during 2008 campaign when jeremiah wright was interviewed, he talked about people thee toward black america and white america and both sides have prejudices that he can understand. you get the sense that the administration is uncomfortable about the facts. like so many people just don't feel clear on what happened. almost imagine that compromise if he had to do photo op he clearly believes there are big systemic problems. maybe he goes somewhere that is not ferguson where community policing is working really well there is sort of racial working and talk about larger systemic issues while avoiding the fact of the case and avoiding the violence and looting that we've seen that they are very nervous. >> i believe you meant comity.

>> o'donnell: back in a moment with pope frances first appoint american archbishop.

>> o'donnell: finally sewed some are asking if he's the newly appointed archbishop of chicago blase cupich is shun knowledge the mansion occupied by his predecessors and echoing the pope's call to care for the poor. i spoke with the pope's first american appointed archbishop earlier this week about how he plans to bring the pope's vision

to chicago. >> i'm going to do what i've tried to do the 16 years that i've been a bishop of diocese. that is to get to know people. i think one of the things that the holy father is appreciated for by people is that he is speaking in a way that really resonates with their aspirations and concerns. what i find to be very interesting in the francis affect as they call it. people do have sense that the church is listening to them also that he is speaking to their deepest desires. if i can in some way emulate that example then i think that i'm probably on the right track. >> o'donnell: what do you mean by that, what to you is the francis affect? >> i think that people today find that the holy father is looking at people, addressing people in a way that shows deep respect. but also realizes that the

world, our communities are deeply divided. he is trying to make sure that we come together and not leave anybody behind. and i think that is nothing that i want to continue to do in my ministry. >> o'donnell: many people have watched pope francis say that he emphasizes the pastoral approach. pope benedict more emphasized orthodoxys there a change in terms of emphasis in the catholic church? >> i explained it by nice phrase that i heard, that is that john paul ii told us what we should do. benedict told us why we should do it. and pope francis is saying, do it. >> o'donnell: so what specifically does that mean "do it"? >> i think a lot of the things that pope francis is talking about in terms of economic policy have their seeds in many of the writings of john paul ii as well as benedict. he is making it more precise i think because of his own

experience in argentina being very close to the poor on day-to-day basis. i think that gives him a different metric, a different way of what the teachings of the church are in real terms. he is putting emphasis on real life people and bringing yet ideas to bear upon the real life situations of folks. >> o'donnell: you in your own background appear to have emphasized conversation other confrontation. you haven't been particularly confrontational with politicians who disagree with you on issues like abortion, for instance. do you think the eucharist has become too politicized? >> i that i is important always to begin with an attitude of dialogue. it's important to listen to people and it's very hard to have dialogue because in order for someone to tell you why they think you are wrong, you have to sit with patience.

cannot be the place where those discussions are fought but rather we have to look at how we're going to deal with the tough issues of the day in constructive way and as adults who respect each other. >> o'donnell: when you say we cannot politicize the communion you would give communion to politicians, for instance, who support abortion rights. >> i would not use the eucharist or as they call it the communion rail as place to have those discussions or way in which people would be either excluded from the life of the church. the uke crist is an opportunity of grace and also time of forgiveness of sins. so my hope would be that that grace would be instrumental in bringing people to the truth. >> o'donnell: what do you think of president obama's immigration proposals. >> the bishops of the united states we're very much in favor

of action being taken to protect people who need to come out of the shadows. it's been too long of a time for people to wait for comprehensive immigration reform. and so we see this as an important first step hopeful three jumpstart what's happening. my concern would be that we would have a policy and procedure that would have confidentiality provision because if people come out of the shadows and sign up and give their names and information they want to make sure that that is going to be protected in the future should the executive order change by another administration. i think it's very important that this be done very carefully but we applaud it as good first step. more needs to be done. we encourage the president and members of congress to get this work done. >> o'donnell: you said the work of comprehensive immigration reform is not important because it is on my agenda but because it is on god's. what does that mean, god wants immigration reform? >> it means that the aspiration,

is that people have for better life for their children in which they are reaching out in hope as many people who have come to this country have. those aspirations reof were placed in their heart by god. we have to attend to that. this is not something that they're wanting on their own but god has always called us to a better life. has always called us to experiencing how we can provide for our families in a better way. i think that being grandson of immigrants i feel that very deeply. >> o'donnell: name-sex marriage now legal in 35 states and more battles coming up. what should the church say about same-sex marriage? does it need to change at all? >> i think in washington state where i was bishop for last four years there was a referendum on this very issue and i spoke very clearly about this. i said first of all that we

cannot use this moment of public debate to say anything or do anything that would provoke violence against gay and lesbian people. we have to make sure that we're not part of that and we would condemn that. at the same time it's not just about gay marriage it's about whether or not we're going to have statutes in our states that uphold and protect amy who take the risk of bringing children in to the world. people who as mothers and fathers coming together in their love, continue the human race. >> o'donnell: do you think gay parents can good parents? >> i think people who are not only gay but many single people are good parents i don't think that's the issue. i think the real issue is, should we have -- should we continue to have legislation that supports, protects and up holds those people who take the risk of actually bringing children in to the world and

preserving the human race. >> o'donnell: i understand the church's teaching, you do think there should be legislation to protect the parents who are bringing children in to the world and caring for them that are in same-sex relationships? >> no. i'm saying that the people who bring children in to the world are man and woman in their own love that bring children in the world. i do know that there are gay couples, there are others, grandparents, single people who adopt children, who maybe even have children not from the act of love, but to care for children in that way. yes, i think that there has to be way in which we do support them. but i do think there is something unique about man and woman coming together and bringing children in to the world preserving the human race and providing that example as a mother and father, male and female within family that also deserves the states support and

protection. >> o'donnell: what do you think about what pope trances is doing in terms of tackling the issue of sexual abuse in the catholic church? >> i think that he's continuing the work that was begun earlier by his predecessors especially by pope benedict. he does see that it is a human problem it's not an american problem not an anglo-saxons problem it's a human problem not just catholic problem, either. i think that protection of children is very important. >> o'donnell: pope france was the first pope to enact commission led by cardinal o'malley to actually look at this issue and propose reform. >> yes. i applaud him for that. i think that it's a great step forward and particularly the people that are on that commission who have many times criticized the church for the way that it failed to respond. and i think that holy father

made singular contribution forward, also has to be seen within the wide spectrum of the work that was done by his predecessors to get us to this point. >> there are many tough issues facing this country right now, there are deep racial divisions, terrorism and war raging overseas, sluggish economy in some parts of the world, do you have a message for people on this thanksgiving? >> i think that message i would have is first of all, be thankful for the gift, is that god has given them, especially their families. to allow the loved ones that they have surround them at this time to remind them that all of us belong to a larger family. >> o'donnell: what about what is happening in ferguson. clearly there is still a lot of anger and a lot of distrust in ferguson and st. louis. >> yes. it's a tragedy all the way around.

for the family of michael brown and i could hear the heartache in the voice of his father and family members who called for peace and tranquility. they want to respect this young man and realize that violence will only disrespect him. they are suffering on all sides here. we need to do a better job not just in terms of justice to make sure that those who are involved in law enforcement conduct themselves in a proper way but also that the deep, serious social problems that provide a context of unrest whenever tragedies like this happen. >> o'donnell: archbishop blase cupich, thank you for your time, happy thanksgiving. >> happy thanksgiving to you and all your viewers, good to be with you.

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