captioning sponsored by cbs >> dickerson: today on "face the nation", house speaker paul ryan leads the charge to repeal obamacare. but do they have the votes within his own party? we will go one-on-one with the speak never an interview you will see only on "face the nation". republicans launch the long promised push to dismantle the affordable care act. but were hammered right out of the date by critics from the right, the left and the center. >> you are a governing party getting a consensus among the wide big tent party. >> we are not getting what we want but we are getting much better policy here. >> dickerson: but it is the impact of the policy that gives americans worried and critics ammunition. >> how many people will lose coverage? >> i can't answer that question. >> dickerson: another unanswered question in washington, what evidence did the president have for his bomb shell charge that president

obama had wiretapped trump tower dump the campaign? >> you will remember, the so-called gang of eight. who got this information, have you seen anything to suggest there is wiretaps? >> no. >> dickerson: question will also talk this morning to two of the most vocal critics of the healthcare replacement bill in the senate, one from either side of the aisle. republican rand paul of kentucky and democratic bernie sanders of the vermont. and we will have plenty of political analysis of all the week's news, it is coming right up on "face the nation". >> >> dickerson: good morning and welcome to "face the nation". i am john dickerson. for the most part this past week president trump has been working behind the scenes to fulfill one of his biggest campaign promises, repealing and replacing obamacare. that left the public spotlight to house speaker paul ryan, who went as far as rolling up his sleeves and making his case with charts and graphs. when we sat down with the speaker yesterday, he told us he was excited about the reaction to the bill. >> dickerson: you have

conservative governors and conservative members of the house and aarp, the american medical association, american hospital association, the health insurance lobby, all coming out against this. you are pleased with the reaction, the reaction has been awful. >> i wouldn't say the reaction has been awful. i think the reaction is, everybody wants to compare this to obamacare as if they can keep these guarantees going, as if we are going to have obamacare plans and we are just going to finance ate different way. this is repealing and replacing obamacare so this first part is very, very important. it repeals the entire fiscal pieces to law and replaces it with patient centered system, and the point s a lot of people who you just mentioned i think they would like to see us continue to make americans buy what we say they should buy. we don't -- >> dickerson: the critics come from the conservative side. >> look, when you are a governing party getting consensus among your wide, big tent party, not -- everybody doesn't get what they want, but we are getting much better policy here. let me put it this way. obamacare is collapsing. if we just did nothing, washed

our hands of the situation, we would see a further collapse of the health insurance markets, so we feel an obligation to step in front of that collapse and replace this with one that works and that has more freedom, some people like it to be done a little bit differently, the point here though is we have an obligation. we made a promise to the people who elected us who would have, we would repeal and replace this law and basically said this is what we would replace it with and now we are keeping our word. >> dickerson: there have been so many people picking at different pieces and issues of it, on your side, the other side, cotton from arkansas, lindsey graham from south carolina have both said, let's slow down. why go so fast? that is. >> that is actually really puzzling to me, why go so fast? let me see, we ran for peel and replace in 2010, we ran on repeal and replace in 2012, 2014, in 2016, oh by the way we spent six months last year developing a replacement plan and ran on that replacement plan. >> dickerson: the senators

know that. >> this has been a long deliberative process. suggesting this is moving fast, going through four committees, going through regular order, saying you are going to do this for seven years and now come to the point where we are actually on the cusp of keeping our word, i hardly think that is rushing things. >> dickerson: the point is, this is historic, this is. >> this is historic and significant and if we don't act, the system is going to collapse and the beautiful thing about this plan that we are proposing, it is more freedom, it is more choices, it is more markets and lower prices which gets us better access. >> dickerson: you say you ran on that, that's like saying some day we are going to buy a car and now we are talking about the actual car and legislation. >> we said this is what the car is going to look like. >> dickerson: all of these analyses are coming out are based on actual legislation, not while you were campaigning but actual details at issue here. everything from tax credits to the individual mandate, all of that stuff is being debated afresh now in a way -- which -- we love this kind of debate, this is a good debate to have.

when you if you can't get 51 votes in the senate will you have accomplished something? >> well, i believe we can get 51 votes out of the senate, this is what the legislative process looks like, when you are going through a deliberative legislative process, not ramming and januarying things but going through all the committees and going through the entire process, people are going to try to negotiate and people would say we, wish we could do this, that, that's how legislation works. negotiations and compromises occur when you are writing law and what we are seeing and hearing is just that. >> dickerson: the president, he is the first marketer president, how helpful has he been in applying the marketer skill to selling this thing? >> tremendously, actually, he has been very helpful and extremely geangd with various members of congress, i talked to him constantly -- >> dickerson: has he given you advice on how to sell it? >> sure and we talk, it is a very good collaboration. everybody has been working on the same page, not rival plans, working together. so i am actually really excited that we have a president fully

engaged and fully committed to keeping this. >> his promise, the same promise we made to the people who elected us in getting this done. >> dickerson: you say keeping his promise, he has promised a lot for this legislation. he said everybody will be covered, he said costs will go down and 0 will be able to pick your doctor even in company insurance plans you can't pick your doctor there are limits on that. he said that you will be able to pick whatever plan you want. he is over promising. >> look, here is the point. >> dickerson: he is over promising? >> i can't speak to all of those. i don't know what, that is all he said. he said we will repeal and replace obamacare with a better system, one that gives better access to more affordable choices and you pick what you want. we are not going to have -- >> dickerson: read his speech he gave to congress just a few weeks ago. that speech perfectly encapsulized what we are achieving here, and i think people are missing the historical nature of, this we are taking one entitlement that is going bankrupt, medicaid ands where lower income people don't get access to a doctor and giving it backs to the states so they are experiment and innovate

and make it better for low-income statement. >> we are taking another entitlement, obamacare which is crashing and hurting our fiscal situation and equalizing the extreme, tax stream of healthcare and gives more choice and freedom, that means lower costs across the board so you can improve access. >> dickerson: i will talk about some of that in a minute. the president has said there will be a bloodbath in 2018 if this a isn't passed in the senate -- >> i believe if we don't keep our word to the people who sent us here, i believe, yes. look, the most important thing for a person like myself who runs for office and tells the people that we are asking to hire if i get elected. and then if you don't do that, you are breaking your word. >> dickerson: you said you are working hand in glove with the president on selling this new healthcare plan. but move the weekend, before you were going to launch this sales campaign the president sends out four tweets about his predecessor wiretapping him, did that help or hurt him? >> that wasn't really part of

the healthcare marketing campaign. >> dickerson: yes. >> how much off course did that take you? >> like i said this is going to be an unconventional presidency and i think he was just upset about -- >> dickerson: there is upset and then really off into new territory. >> look, this is part of what the intelligence committee is investigating. both the house intelligence committee and the senate intelligence committee are going through all of this. that is the proper place for this. and by the way, we have been presented with no evidence that anybody, any american was in collusion with the russian with meddling with our election, we knew that before the election and said so. >> dickerson: you and i have talked about the importance of public figures making a case, you doing it right now with healthcare, to the public base odd ten set of facts, you make your argument about your facts, the other person makes their argument and the people make a decision. how can that happen in a situation where you have a president who is saying things that, where the director of the fbi, the former dni -- >> there has been a lot of reporting about this, and

remember there was an investigation by the intelligence committee -- >> dickerson: on the wiretap of donald trump -- >> that's what the intelligence committee is going to report. there has been a lot of reporting about this all over the place. get to the bottom and make sure is intelligence committee investigates these things and i think when we get through all of the investigation i think we will discover they didn't do those things but russia tried to meddle with our election. >> dickerson: there is a serious charge, the president is saying the predecessor put illegal wiretaps on him, that is not a basket of charges that have been discussed in the paper before, that is a new thing and i wonder if you feel like senate graham does when a president makes this kind of a bombshell charge that you can't just wait for the committees to kind of get to the work. this isn't something you want to just linger out there. do you -- what do you feel about that? >> well, that is outside of my control what is tweeted or what isn't tweeted. we are focused on healthcare and the president is focused on healthcare. i think he is frustrated with this whole thing about russia and i think he is frustrated

with what selective leaks coming from parts of government that malign his campaign. >> the reason we think are the intelligence committees to do this, the last thing we want to do is compromise the sources and methods of our intelligence gathering so that we get to the bottom of all of this. but, yes, there has been a lot of selective leaking, i think in many ways meant to malign the presidency and meant to get him off to a bad start and he is pressing that frustration. >> dickerson: you are in the so-called gang of eight, the top leaders who get this information. have you seen anything to suggest there are wiretaps a? >> no. >> dickerson: could you clear up this question of -- >> again, i don' i don't want tt ahead of the intelligence committee so i don't want to get ahead of the intelligence committee and their thorough investigation. >> dickerson: and now we will get some answers soon after the intelligence asked the justice department to turn over any specific evidence they have related to any possible wiretaps at trump tower, and we will have more questions and get some more answers from speaker ryan later in our broadcast. right now we turn to the critics of the new plan, yesterday vice

president traveled to kentucky perhaps to put a little pressure on one of the bill's most vocal opponents, republican senator rand paul who is with us now, welcome, senator, what is is wrg with this bill? >> i think it is basically obamacare light. it keeps the subsidies, keeps the taxings for a year, then keeps the cadillac tax forever, the tax on good insurance. it keeps the individual mandate, interestingly, republicans have complained for years and we didn't like the government was going to make you pay a meant, well now instead of paying the penalty to the government you pay the meant to the insurance industry. there is also in the insurance industries, the one primary thing that is wrong with obamacare, this is what everybody, is that premiums are rising and -- through the roof, soing in the individual market. that will happen under the ryan plan as well because it does nothing to fix the fundamental problem. what. >> dickerson: what paul brian is saying you are missing the forest for the trees which you are missing this is changing medicaid fundamentally and

making it something that goes back to the state and getting rid of the obama care entitlement and getting health savings accounts which republicans -- >> let's start with the medicaid expansion, it may be fundamentally changing it or not. built into medicaid, they are going to block grant it with a fixed amount of money and go up about five percent a year it goes up at cpi, an indicator of inflation in the medical community, which is going up at about four percent, plus one, so it is going to go up at about five percent a year, the question is that a lot slower than what medicaid is going up now? is it quicker? i think it is still building in the growth of an entitlement program that really isn't paid for. under obamacare i think it was dishonest accounting, it says the federal government will pay for medicaid, 100 percent of it but we have no money, we dole a million dollars a minute on a trillion-dollar debt, it is dishonest, it sounds good, give stuff for free, free healthcare but it is not free, we are borrowing it from china which really threatens our country from within. >> dickerson: you say it

retains the individual mandate. the argument is that if you don't have something to get healthy people into the insurance market, it will end up just being sicker and older people and that's why proposes go up. >> that's right, the fundamental premise of obamacare we have to have healthy people buy it so give them a mandate. hoo search is the interesting thing, left and right people are really looking at this, it is going to get worse. the individual that's correct will get worse when you get rid of the individual mandate and make it an insurance mandate sway slightly lesser penalty and so more and more stick people will be in the pool and let's say you lost your job and you lost your insurance. do you have any incentive to get back in and pay the penalty? no, the people say it is a disincentive to buy insurance, why don't you wait until you are sick? so really you can't have an insurance model where people wait until they are sick to get insurance. it doesn't work and here is the problem with ryan's plan. he keeps that fundamental aspect of obamacare. he doesn't change it. >> dickerson: you say that speaker ryan is pulling the wool

over the eyes of the president. really? mulling the wool? >> i think there is a separation between the two. i have talked to the president, i think three types on obamacare and i hear from him he is willing to negotiate. i hear from paul ryan? it is a binary choice, young man, but what is a binary choice 19? his way or the highway. >> dickerson: his argument would be, binary choice you do this now through reconciliation, a senate process that is kind of a pain and then you have a second piece of legislation -- >> what we are hearing is a binary choice, it is ryan plan or the status quo. and what he rammed through his committee is his without any amendments and that's a question. if we get what we have got from ryan, obamacare light, he will not have the votes and we have to get to that point before true negotiations begin. right now, i think there is a charm offensive going on, everybody is being nice to everybody, because they want us to vote for this but we are not going to vote for it. >> you talked, toly get to the senate in a second but you say you spoke with the president, where do you think he is willing to negotiate on these issues you have highlighted? >> i don't think the president is rigid in his support of the

house bill, i think he is open to seeing ho how we can get consensus and what i told the president and what i am telling everybody, we are united on repeal, not so much on replacement. we do not free with the fundamental three or four things that ryan has, subsidies, taxes, mandates, insurance bailout, that is obama care, we don't want that. if you take that off, what do you have? you have got repeal. now what do you do help -- >> dickerson: just repeal by itself? >> i would do replacement in a separate bill buzz what i would do in replacement, there are two things you have to do to fix the individual market, you have to tell people that they can buy any kind of insurance they want. >> dickerson: so you get on the mandates of what goes into insurance but also allow for people to join a buying group. if people join a healthcare association or a coop, that drives down -- it is not in obamacare light -- but the reason it has to be discussed at the at the same time is, they are going to come out and say a lot of people are not covered so how will we cover them? i would cover them with

something much better than obamacare, and that would be joining a coop to drive down proos prices but also to get guaranteed issue where you won't get dropped. >> dickerson: you said there is a room perhaps for negotiation with the president but mike members is in your, mike pence is in your state to repeal and replace obamacare for, we need every republican in congress, that sound like he is talking to you. >> i think that is the prenegotiation, we are still in the prenegotiation period, when the negotiation period comes and i promise this is the way it works, we will get obamacare light, ryan's plan and there are enough conservatives in the house to say no, if there are enough to say no when they start voting on the rules of debate, if they bring down the rule, if they stop him in the racks, then true negotiations begin, no negotiation right now -- until they determine to have enough votes to stop obamacare light. >> dickerson: let me ask you a question on wiretapping because i know that is an issue you care a lot about. there are your colleagues lindsey graham and senator -- who said this claim the president made about being

wiretapped as a candidate by president obama, they say it is too incendiary to wait for the committees to adjudication and they should bring forth any evidence they have. does that bother you? >> i think the first thing to realize, i think everybody is getting the story wrong, i doubt trump was a sorry target directly but i am not saying it didn't happen. it may have. i don't have any special information but the way it works the guy is a court through section 702 wiretaps foreigners and then listens to americans. it is a back door search of americans, and because they have so much data, they can tap -- type donald trump into their vast resources of people that are tapping overseas and they get all of these phone calls, and so they did -- president obama, 1,227 times eavesdropped on president obama's phone calls and then they mask him, but here is the problem, and general hayden said this the other day, he said even low level employees can unmask the caller, that is probably what happened to flynn,

they are not targeting americans, they are targeting foreigners, but they are doing it purposefully to get to americans. >> dickerson: okay. so your point is the president would have been call -- excuse me, a candidate trump calling -- >> or one of his associates but it is very dangerous, because they are revealing that now to the public. >> dickerson: thank you, senator we ran out of time. next a much different view from bernie sandersers. >> it's off to work we go! woman: on the gulf coast, new exxonmobil projects are expected to create over 45,000 jobs. and each job created by the energy industry supports two others in the community. altogether, the industry supports over 9 million jobs nationwide. these are jobs that natural gas is helping make happen, all while reducing america's emissions. energy lives here.

we are joined by vermont senator bernie sanders who is in burlington this morning. senator sanders, house speaker paul ryan thinks that his legislation can get 51 votes in the senate. what do you think? >> well, i sure hope not, john. it is an absolute disaster. it is a disgrace, and by the way, this really has nothing to do with healthcare. what, but this has everything to do with a massive shift of

wealth from working people, low income people to the very richest people of this country. it is a $275 billion tax break for the top two percent, millionaires will get about $50,000 a year in tax breaks while at the same time some five to 10 million people are going to lose their health insurance, premiums are going to soar taarp says that if you are 64 years of age and you make about 25,000 a year you are going to pay up to $7,000 more for your health insurance, they are going to defund planned parenthood, deny over 2 million women the right to choose the healthcare they need and designate medicaid which is why the american medical association, the ama and the american hospital association are opposing it, in addition to the aarp. this is a disgrace and by the way they are so cowardly that they want to go forward before the cbo even

gives an estimate as to how much it will cost and ho how many pee will lose their insurance. >> dickerson: the sbo will be given the accountant, their score on monday, so it will, they will be able to to be a part of the debate. but let me ask you this question about how many people will lose coverage. what speaker ryan says it is an unfair comparison because the people that have coverage now have coverage in a rickety system that is getting worse, premiums are going up, insurance companies are dropping out of the system. so it is unfair to compare the people who have it now, because the system is falling apart. >> oh, really? well, five to 10 million people are going to have more health insurance, no health insurance at all. nobody has suggested the affordable care act, obamacare was perfect, but it did put 20 million people into the ranks of the insured. in my view, and what the american people want is an improvement on obamacare, not

the decimation of obamacare and throwing so many people off health insurance and raising premiums substantially. it is very hard for ryan or anybody else not to deny that what never bringing forth is far, far, far worse than obamacare and that its primary purpose is massive tax breaks for the very wealthiest people in this country. >> dickerson: there has been a lot of criticism from some senators about what the house is putting together. i wonder if you see an opportunity to use the opposition against the house bill to do something that is closer to what you want. >> well, sure, that is a very fair question, but as i understand it, this bill is so outrageous that not only do the republicans move forward in the house without the cbo score, they want to move forward in the senate without any hearings whatsoever. if you realize, this bill is going to impact 10s and 10s of

millions of people, and to the best of my knowledge they want to bring it right to the floor of the senate, i am a member of the health education committee, but, when obamacare was being debated we had hearing after hearing, meeting after meeting that never ended. and you guys want to take a bill so significant, to so many people and just shove it through because they don't have the guts to hold hearings. they don't want the american people to know what is going on. >> dickerson: they say, though, there will be a multistep process here. this is one step and then there will be future legislation, so what you might want would be in that future legislation which would also have a 60 vote threshold. this one has only a 50 vote threshold because of the way it is going through. >> well, they can say what they want, john, but it is impossible for any serious legislator to defend a process by which a bill is coming through the senate without one hearing before the vote takes place. and i think it has caught everybody. to move, they are going to move

as quickly as they can and they are embarrassed about the product and let's not forget, that president trump who now i guess today at least supports it, we don't know what he will say attorney, but trump was the guy who said to the american people when he ran for president, oh, don't worry we have a terrific idea. we are going to provide healthcare to all people. well, this is far from it. this is throwing five to 10 million people off the health insurance they currently have. >> dickerson: all right, senator standards we, senatorsk sanders thanks for being with us. we will have to leave it there. we will have to leave it there. >> thank you a. >> dickerson: thank you. and we will be back in a moment. >> i'm from all nations. i would look at forms now and wonder what do i mark? because i'm everything. and i marked other. discover the story only your dna can tell. order your kit now at ancestrydna.com.

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