>> dickerson: and now for the administration's take on the budget and healthcare, joining us now is white house budget director mick mulvaney. welcome, mr. director, i want to start with something the president told tucker carlson on fox about the healthcare plan. he acknowledged that the people who voted for him and sent him to washington bear the brunt of a lot of these changes in the healthcare bill panned he said, quote, we need to take care of our people -- meaning the bill, how will he take care of his bill without fundamentally changing the bill? >> the same way we have taken people for a long time in this country which is through competition, i think it is one thing that doesn't get heavily reported is that part of the problem with obamacare right now, and i discovered this first time, i live in south carolina, we are down to one provider, you can imagine what that does to price competition on costs, it doesn't do anything, but increase the costs, and one, the key points of the plan that is in the republican house right now is it is going to encourage

more competition, which will lower the cost for everybody, not just trump voters. >> dickerson: but the president's remarks here were having taken all of that into account, knowing there is competition in the bill, what he is responding to are studies that showed the tax credits go to the wealthy and that there are tax breaks i should say and the tax credit doesn't really help people who are just above medicaid and he was saying that part of this is being negotiated in this interview with tucker carlson, he says that is part of the negotiation, i so so i am wondering if this is part of the negotiation what is he asking for to make it better for the people -- >> your first comment about how the wealthy get all of the tax cuts, we promised, the president promised to repeal all of obamacare and that's what we were taxed at the beginning, so i keep wondering why folks just want to focus on who gets a little bit of a tax benefit instead of focusing on the fact we are replacing truly broken system. but to your point about what we are trying to do is to make sure the folks that various options available to them, they are going to get the tax credit, we are going to have hsas that don't exist anymore and lower their net costs on an after-tax

basis and also introduce this competition, so the president knows, belief me, we know who his voters are and we are going to take care of them, there is no question about that, but it doesn't mean we are leaving obamacare in place because that would hurt them dramatically. >> i guess the president, if i am in the middle and a working class person, you know, and i voted for president trump, what am i getting out of this? just as a political thing, what am i get something. >> you are getting something which you don't get right now which is care you can afford. and that is important. the affordable care act was. really obamacare, it wasn't really the affordable care act, it was the affordable coverage act. of an those people that just, you just described could afford to buy insurance but they couldn't afford to go too the doctor because the deductibles were so high. >> dickerson: but what are the studies that show 64-year-old, his premiums going from 1,700 to 14,000? that is not affordable. >> does, it doesn't take into consideration, first of all the other things we will be doing, keep in mind the reports you mentioned don't deal with any of the regulatory reform that tom price at hhs is trying to put in place and doesn't take into

account any of the other the what we call the phase three programs that we are trying to push through congress, such as medical malpractice reform, sales the across interstate line and it also doesn't include a couple of the amendments we agreed to in the last couple of meets, the estimates are not reflecting the true bill. >> dickerson: so in terms of this first phase, the president is basically going to have to, isn't going to take care of those, those states aren't being taken care of now but they hope through legislation they will get the relief the president is asking for. >> i disagree, i think those folks will immediately be better off, because again you are focusing on what it costs to buy a health insurance policy, coverage. but that doesn't allow you to go to the doctor. so the real question is, when you get sick, whether you be able to go get care? and i think without exception, those folks would be better off under the new plan than they are under obamacare. >> dickerson: you mentioned a new plan. the president said as a candidate, about healthcare there was a philosophy in some

circles if you can't pay for it you don't get it, meaning healthcare, that is not going to happen. with us. he said he meant universal care there. you are not going to have universal care -- >> the only way to have universal care, that, if you stop to think about it, is to force people to buy it under penalty of law. so what we are replacing, what you have now is we are forcing to, we are forcing people to bye-bye it under penalty of law and people are looking for a way not to buy it so the government mandate doesn't work, the better function is what we are trying to do now which is to encourage people and enable them to buy a policy they want and can afford. >> dickerson: but universal care a was not really a promise he could -- >> the only way to get true universal care is to throw people in jail if they don't get it and we are not going to do it. >> dickerson: talking about the bunt, one of your guiding principles was when you start looking at places where we reduce spending one of the questions we ask was, can we really continue to ask a coal

miner in or a car work never detroit and the answer is no, that a is a good starting technique, what about the president's vacation when he goes down to mar-a-lago? as president trump, obama's vacations, now people are bringing that back to the president. what does a, does a coal miner or single mom say about the trips down to florida. >> you always attack a budget for being political, keep in mind who the president wrote the budget for. people who, he wrote the budget for everybody, we hear a lot of criticism, for example, habit different line items in the budget blueprint from members of congress. that is to be expected. i used to be a member of congress. i used t to represent 700,000 peoe and my first job was to represent their best interests. we have special interests at play on the hill, we have lobbyists that play on the hill. the president wrote this budget without consideration for those things, without being beholden to anybody except the people and that's who this budget is written for. >> dickerson: if you have think about a coal miner and single mom, savings begin at home, there are things the president can do to cut back on

his own, using that test. >> the coal miner doesn't get to fly down to mar-a-lago either. >> i don't have a business card to give you because the in the office of not guilty and punishment we have to pay for our own business cards and it starts at home. >> dickerson: entitlements he says he doesn't want to touch medicare but he seems to be revising his thinking on that. >> the promise was he wouldn't affect anybody and we haven't with this budget. keep in mind what this budget is. this is just a discretionary spending part of the budget, which was a necessary first. i look at future retirement, future medicare -- >> dickerson: let me ask you a question, do you think social security disability insurance is what people think of when they think of social security? i don't think so, it is the fastest growing program, it brew tremendously under president obama and a very wasteful program and we are going to try to fix that. >> dickerson: thank you so much, mr. director for being with us and we will be back in a moment. >> thank you. >> assed relief. it's 24 hour, non-drowsy and prescription strength. free yourself with clarispray, from the makers of claritin.

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it can seem like triggers pop up everywhere. luckily there's powerful, 24-hour, non-drowsy claritin. it provides relief of symptoms that can be triggered by over 200 different allergens. live claritin clear. >> and we are back with our political panel. kim 0 voluntaries sell is a columnist for the "wall street journal" and sits on the journal editorial board. jeffrey goldberg is the editor in chief of the atlantic. we are it is joined by ruth marcus, columnist and deputy editorial page editor at the "washington post". and ed o'keefe covers politics for the post, kim i want to start with you. where do things stand on the american healthcare act? in congress? >> uncertain, but moving ahead. i think. look, what we are witnessing here is the return to old-fashioned politics, and nobody is used to this anymore, in that we had for six years

opposition politics, republicans saying no to everything, the president largely ruling from his virtual white house this is a big fat, beautiful negotiation, and i think it is very important, you have ted cruz on, he said he wants to get to yes. this is from a guy who was part of the hell no brigade for years, so he wants to get there, the freedom caucus, you are having all of these negotiations. and at the same time, paul ryan is very ruthlessly marching this on a schedule through the house to try to impose some deadlines and i think we will get a lot more clarity this week when we possibly have a amendment that tries to fix some of the concerns of some of the conservatives. >> dickerson: do you think, the senator cruz said he was trying to make it better and working with the white house on this, and this president, who he had some serious disagreements in the primary but will he get all of the stuff he wants? the senate said it is technically impossible. he also is asking for things that others have asked for and haven't gotten yet. >> yes. i would say we have returned to old school legislating but i

don't know that we have returned to old school politics. i mean, i think the fact that he said i want to get to yes and is willing to work with the white house. the question will be, whether he gets to a point, guys like cruz where maybe they got 80 percent of what they want, will they in the past stand firm and hold things up or will they go along to achieve party's big goal? that is the question and that is something we won't sort out until this thursday when they potentially vote on bail in the house that will have changes, but we don't entirely yet know what those changes are. and then down the road, when all of these things get merged together and they decide whether or not certain things get in or not. remember, this isn't just the most diehard conservative republicans who cause sod much trouble for leadership in the last few years. the other guys represent mike pence, suburban philadelphia, suburban chicago and the areas that could be under the gun next year in the elections when suburban voters stand up and say, you know, i actually didn't have that big of a problem or

not as many problems with my healthcare system. you are not trying to dramatically redo it, you look at the numbers that suggest 10s of millions of people will lose their coverage and that's what gives them pause. we will see, but it is encouraging, yes, that there is some wheeling and dealing going on between both ends of the street. the question will be what happens when they don't get everything they want. >> dickerson: let me ask you this, question, ruth, in the senate, the political dynamic will change if something passes out of the house, it is out of the house and comes to the senate, are you really going to be the republican senator who stands in the way of repealing obamacare this isn't that going to be -- i mean ted cruz mentioned, was very clear to say, nobody hates obamacare more than i do, but in tend, isn't he -- is he really going to stand against obamacare? >> maybe. and there is a long way between getting past the house and getting past the senate, because the senate is going to change what the house does and that will change from where it is now. and then i spoke to one of the smartest legislators tacticians i know who gave this about a

50-50 chance in a conference committee. because you have to satisfy -- the dynamics of this have really changed. there are moderate senators that you have to satisfy in your own party and moderate house members, people who are in 20 something who are in districts that hillary clinton won. they all have issues. they all have people who are demonstrably going to be potentially hurt here. that all has to be staffed and then you have the freedom caucus types who have ted cruz joining his line in the, drawing his line in the sand, while he says he wants to get to yes he also undercut a very major argument that the trump administration officials are making this weekend. but there is this third phase that will somehow magically happen, ted cruz said ain't going to happen. he is right. so -- and the stakes here, if it is 50-50, that is a huge thing, because this is not like bill clinton's attempt to launch healthcare or george w. bush's attempt to do social security reform after he was re-elected.

this is a central promise of congressional republicans for years now, of president trump during his campaign, if it doesn't get done it has serious ramifications for his governing going forward. >> dickerson: knows how to put a name on the thing to make it popular, what do you make of the pickle, what he has to face here, which is i mean the idea of a three part plan which the president talked about, but ted cruz says, you know, not going to happen. >> i actually will step back even further, going, going back to the roots, i don't even understand why they are doing this now. and if you are donald trump, you know that your infrastructure plan, your idea to rebuild america, bridges, tunnels, airports, this is a sure winner because you are daring republicans not to go with you, and the democrats are all with you. i simply don't understand why they have phased this the way they have phased it. i understand it was a core

promise, i get it, but infrastructure has core -- >> when you have the -- for six years -- >> i am just questioning. as a marketing question, it seems to me that one of the things you would want to do is put as many right male high school educated americans to work as quickly as possible, so i am not sure that -- i think when to the history of this is written, i am not sure this is going to be seen as a genius political move. >> dickerson: let me ask you this. sort of building on that. there have been the studies and the president acknowledged it it in his interview with tucker carlson that say the trump coalition working class folks are not getting the sides of the tax break that the upper end get, that the tax credit, part of the healthcare doesn't really help them as much as obamacare did. so to jeffrey's point, if i voted for the president, wouldn't bit better to have an infrrehat has got jobs associated with it, where this, you are getting a theory that

hopefully will play out and work in practice? >> look, obamacare obviously affects many different people in many different ways, but there are many, many self-employed people out there, anyone on the individual exchange for whom this is a big hurt at the moment, and it is something republicans ran on. for six years. and whether or not it was the correct decision to move on at first, if they fail in this now, it potentially derails everything else that they want to do, whether it is infrastructure or tax reform and i think the other thing that gets missed here, there needs to be some fixes to this bill, it is not by any means a perfect bill, and especially in ways thathat will reduce premiums, bt when you step back, this is the largest entitlement reform that has ever been contemplated in this country, it will save one t$1.2 trillion, cutting out $900 billion of taxes that are going to be imposed so there are some economic benefits to this, and just some wide philosophical principled points here that are

also making it a worthwhile endeavor for republicans. >> dickerson: and medicare in there too -- >> what she calls entitlement reform i would call somebody something that could hurt trump core voters, if you are a lower income voters, an older voter who voted for donald trump, this plan is not for you. and you could hear president trump in some interviews this week recognizing that that was true. i would keep an eye on the amount of credit that is going to older people -- when i say older people between 50 and 64, some of us may be there. i think -- >> dickerson: actually -- >> -- very well could be increased, i, it is an effort not just to get it through the senate but the house. they need to do that and that -- and then you put in some work requirements for medicaid, that copies down a different group of people. but there are clear core trump voters who are going to be hurt

by this, as laid out -- >> that is clear. >> if you believe the cbo -- >> right. obviously if you believe the cbo -- >> look at logic. if you reduce -- if you allow insurance companies to charge other people more, if you reduce the credits to them, if you allow people in rural areas to be charged more rather than making the credits, change amounts based on where you are geographically, then it is simple logic and arithmetic that there are going to be these people who are hurt. >> well, not necessarily, the insurers are allowed to have plans that don't include all of these mandates and you give people more flexibility to -- anyway -- >> it will be very disinteresting -- >> that number there is a lot of

discussion this week about congressional budget office, they have been off in the past, but 24 million is still as a political matter a number that floats out there, a huge problem for a lot of -- again the more moderate republicans that will be in ricky erases next year and a few senate candidates and a few republicans could face reelection. nevada has said i can't do it because of that. all right. we are going to take a break here and be back with our panel, so stay with us. >> ,,,,,,,,,,,,

>> dickerson: and we are back with more from our panel, i will start with you. monday, the director of the fbi is going to testify in the house on the question of russian meddling in the election. nancy pelosi wants him to come out and up to bed this wiretapping claim. the president in the press conference on friday, on angela her kel says they shared a common bond of being wiretapped by the obama administration. what. >> let's say she doesn't feel like calming down on donald trump for anything. and dash breathing organisms breathing air. >> dickerson: in the conversation, what dot you make of where we are now with the president on this claim? >> the thing about our

conversation, is part of our conversation is about the normal political course in washington, talking about cbo scoring, and then there is this other part of washington now, which is this kind, what is a nice word, nonlogical part that is going on that,ed is not rooted in fact and observable reality, you asked the question, will comey be able to, will the fbi director be able to put this to bed? no, he won't be able to put this to bed because people believe it and apparently the president of the united states still believes this or at least won't back down from what he has said. i would note that in this sort of whirlwind week that the president managed to alienate two treaty allies anew. i mean he already alienated other treaty allies, but his discussions with angela merkel seem semi disastrously and he gratuitously, he completely gratuitously or his administration, put out this idea that the british are, our

closest ally are somehow involved in spying on him on behalf of barack obama. >> his administration in the terms of trump tower, he chose a press conference with angela merkel to reaffirm it, further inflaming it, it just shows the president is doing a lot of very diligent horse trading, getting to yes work on the budget, like -- i mean not on the budget, on healthcare, like a regular president would, in some ways better than his predecessor in terms of his dealings with members of congress. and then we have crazy town, which is saying things -- >> that is another term. >> i will, i am going to go there. saying something that has no basis in fact before you check it, and then as donald trump has shown us for months now, refusing to back down even when you are demonstrably wrong. >> we do know two things. that our factsness, so far, at

least exhausted by the house and senate intelligence committees, which are, one they couldn't find any evidence of actual wiretapping of trump tower. does that mean that trump was surveilled in some other way? we don't know that yet, and they will continue their investigation. we also now had james clap whore used to be head of intelligence for the obama administration and devin nunes who runs the intelligence committee just today say there is no evidence of collusion between the trump team and the russians with regards to the election. so i think those are important things to get out there. we are learning something. they will continue the investigation. and it is going to go into a lot of other things that don't get as much coverage, for instance who has been going the leaking throughout? >> dickerson: all right. >> well, president trump, as president trump and before he was candidate pushed certain lists, that was offensive but doesn't, it wasn't damaging. here we have an accusation that is damaging on a lot of levels. first of all, it is accusing whether the wiretapping is in or out of quotes it is accusing his

predecessor of a major violation of federal law, and then it is causing these problems with a major ally, with britain gratuitously and -- >> dickerson: i want to get a to a couple -- you spent a lot of time talking to the judiciary committee about the gorsuch nomination, which if any conservatives are worried about the wiretapping claim they are very happy about judge gorsuch. >> yes, and credibly so, i spent the bulk of last week talking, cruz, the most transparent supreme court process in recent times. he had differences with trump. jeff flakes who never endorsed trump said he is inspiring and a good pick. mike lee who is sparring with the white house on healthcare, i don't think he could have done any better and lindsey graham who spars with the president any day of the week calls gorsuch a a plus and the single best thing trump has done is pick gorsuch. the republicans are in lockstep with the president on this and they are excited about it. they are thrilled about how well the

rollout has gone so far and they are confident that gorsuch will sail through this week. what has been most interesting to watch is democrats toiling among themselves about how to react, do you block him? do you throw everything you at him or do you perhaps hold back a little bit, because inevitably another vacancy will come and get to pick that person and it could be more conservative than gorsuch. >> dickerson: we have a short time, jeffrey i don't want to the leave without the rollout to overseas rex tillerson. >> he didn't travel with the press. he said some new things about north korea, give us your sense of that in 30 seconds. >> well, i think there was some innovations he is talk about all options bonn table. he put out there could be a preemptive u.s. attack on north korea, i can't of course north korea has been a problem for decades, the crisis is generated by north korean extremism and ill logic, but i come back to this general conversation about the way the trump administration does things. on some levels, on

gorsuch, it is smooth, on healthcare they are having a reasonable debate, but the question is, on matters of life and death i am not confident yet that these guys can and a crisis, because remember nothing really has happened yet in the trump administration. there has been no terror attacks, nothing both north korean magnitude so remains to be seen. >> dickerson: we will have toned there. thanks to all of you and we will be right back in a ne moment. >> ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪

>> dickerson: that's it for us today. see you next week. >> ,,

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