>> what happened behind the scenes of america's number-one news program during the past 50 years? find out new in the book "50 years of "60 minutes." get yours today. captioning funded by cbs and ford. we go further, so you can. >> wertheim: this evening behind the scenes of an intimate, top-secret documentary. pope francis as you've never seen him or heard him before. >> sense of humor. >> wertheim: in his own words, without a script, challenging catholic conventions and the world. we usually voice over foreign language speakers, but not tonight. >> pope francis ( translated ): and if today you ask me, for you, who is the poorest of the poorest of the poor, i would say: mother earth! we have plundered her!

>> stahl: animals with baby, always a sure-fire hit at the zoo. >> oh, look. >> stahl: it's what all living creaturers biologically programmed to do -- mate, rear young, and pass their genes on to the next generation. >> is he a boy? >> stahl: but it turns out behind every baby animal crowds flock to see and biologists want to protect, there is an elaborate mix of science, software. >> and that's a good pairing. >> stahl: genetic and moving vans. it's no longer the old-fashioned birds and the bees at the zoo these days. it's more like match.com. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl. >> i'm scott pelley. >> i'm anderson cooper. >> i'm jon wertheim. >> i'm bill whittaker. those stories tonight on this special edition of "60 minutes." -♪ he's got legs of lumber and arms of steel ♪

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>> wertheim: a german experimental filmmaker-- and a lapsed catholic at that-- is hardly the conventional choice for the vatican to hand-pick as the pope's documentarian. but pope francis has, you might say, ex-communicated convention. five years on the job, the 266th pope is both uncommonly popular, and uncommonly polarizing. he's taken on sweeping global issues: climate change, poverty, immigration; though some believe it's come at the expense of more traditional catholic concerns. this plays out in a film being

released this week directed by the auteur, wim wenders. we got an early look at the film, titled "pope francis: a man of his word," and can report that it's an intimate portrait of a new kind of pope. we usually voice-over foreign language speakers, but decided to keep the film's subtitles and musical score, so you can hear the pope in his native tongue, and at his natural pace, as he gives new zest to the word "pontificate."ural pace, as he >> pope francis ( translated ): the world today is mostly deaf. and i think that among ourselves, the priests, there are many deaf ones. i'm talking about getting involved in people's lives, i am talking about closeness. ten a t, say just enough, and always look

people in the eye. >> wertheim: it was pope francis himself who both greenlit this film and agreed to be the star. in a series of interviews, unprecedented in length and scope, he spoke spontaneously on matters both spiritual and material. entirely without notes, and largely without filter. >> pope francis ( translated ): the way to escape consumerism, this corruption, this competitiveness, this being enslaved to money, is the concreteness of day-to-day work, is tangible reality! >> wertheim: for this most unusual documentary, the vatican didn't go in-house. it went "art house." wim wenders' eclectic body of work includes "buena vista social club," an infectious documentary about a group of aging cuban musicians; and

"wings of desire," a fantasy feature about angels keeping watch over berlin, wenders' longtime home. a top vatican official, who just happened to be a movie buff, had the idea of commissioning wenders to make his next film with the sitting pope. >> wim wenders: i thought it was more intimidating than flattering. >> wertheim: you did? >> wenders: and you have carte blanche. >> wertheim: carte blanche? >> wenders: carte blanche. and you can even write the concept yourself with the pope, because i'm not interested in a biography of the man. he's too interesting for that. i really want the film to be about what he stands for, and that, he can only represent himself. so, i really want to make a film with him. i realize it was going to be one of a kind. but also, sleepless nights. >> wertheim: from those first plumes of smoke in 2013, signifiying francis' papacy,

vatican cameras began chronicling the pope's every move. >> pope francis ( translated ): good evening! >> wertheim: wenders was granted access not just to francis, but to an extraordinary video library. he was able to combine his interviews with rare vatican television footage. he oversaw months of editing, and added his own cinematic touches and writing, which he narrated himself. >> wenders: yes, here we are, all of us, with great expectations of the first pope from the americas, the first from the southern hemisphere, the first jesuit, but most of all, the first pope ever to choose the name of francis. >> wenders: saint francis stands for a lot. he stands for quite a radical solidarity with the poor. he stands for a whole new relation to nature. so to take this name was daring. >> wertheim: saint francis of

assisi is the patron saint of the environment. to honor his namesake, pope francis devoted his 2015 encyclical-- a 184-page letter to the church faithful-- to the technology, science and data behind climate change. this pope speaks openly of evolution, and says, "the biblical story of creation is a mythical form of expression." he likens the neglect of the earth to the neglect of the poor. >> pope francis ( translated ): they go together. and if today you ask me, for you, who is the poorest of the poorest of the poor, i would say: mother earth! we have plundered her! we have abused her! >> wertheim: the film depicts the extent of that abuse. pope francis punctuates it with a direct and unmistakable message.

>> pope francis ( translated ): and we are all responsible! no one can say: "i have nothing to do with this." >> wertheim: francis was elevated to his position when his predecessor, pope benedict, became the first pope in 600 years to resign, citing declining health. now 81, pope francis has appealed personally to hundreds of millions in dozens of countries. he often balances gravity with levity, as he did during this trip to philadelphia, where he visited a prison, and spoke at a conference celebrating the family. >> pope francis ( translated ): families have difficulties. families, we quarrel. sometimes plates can fly. ( laughs )

and children bring headaches. ( laughs ) i won't speak about mother-in- laws. ( laughs ) >> pope francis ( translated ): we live with the accelerator down from morning to night. this ruins mental health, spiritual health, and physical health. more so: it affects and destroys the family, and therefore society. "on the seventh day, he rested." what the jews followed and still observe, was to consider the sabbath as holy. on saturday you rest. one day of the week, that's the least!

out of gratitude, to worship god, to spend time with the family, to play, to do all these things. we are not machines! >> wertheim: did he realize how intimate this was going to look? >> wenders: oh yes. >> wertheim: he's staring right at you. >> wenders: he understood this whole system really well, and stuck to it, and did it perfectly. >> wertheim: the "system," first developed by the documentarian errol morris, entailed projecting wenders' face on a screen in front of the lens, so the pope could look the director face-to-face as they spoke. wenders took us into his edit room to show us some behind-the- scenes footage. >> wenders: he didn't want to have anybody else around. there was no makeup, there was no wardrobe, there was no props. he came, and we started to shoot. >> wertheim: no, no trailer. >> wenders: no trailer, no. ( laughs ) >> wertheim: the easiest subject you're ever going to work with. wenders interviewed the pope four times, for more than eight hours total.

they both agreed this spot in the vatican gardens was their favorite setting. but, it didn't come without challenges: >> wenders: and now, you already hear the bloody parrots. ( parrots ) >> wertheim: were you warned that the vatican's parrots might interrupt the shoot? >> wenders: no, even the vatican itself didn't know that they had these birds that were really loud. >> wertheim: they didn't know? was this project top secret? did people know this was-- >> wenders: i don't think anybody knew. we shot under the radar. >> wertheim: one possible reason: these are fraught times for the church. francis has been critical of the vatican's bloated bureaucracy, and traditionalists have pushed back, accusing him of neglecting his spiritual role. all this plays out amid the church's unrelenting sexual abuse scandals. when wenders inevitably raised the subject, it brought out a simmering rage. >> wenders: we saw this anger

once, really very strong. and it was almost physical, it was, the way it translated. and that was my question about pedophilia, and there he got so worked up. and there was a very angry man speaking into the camera. >> pope francis ( translated ): towards pedophilia, zero tolerance! and the church must punish such priests who have that problem, and bishops must remove from their priestly functions anyone with that disease, that tendency to pedophilia, and that includes to support the legal action by the parents before the civil courts.

there is no other way out of this! zero tolerance, because it's a crime-- no, worse! it's leaving them alive, but destroyed. >> wertheim: and yet on this point too, francis has his critics, who believe he could do more to confront the abuse. >> wertheim: you say he's not a politician, but he has a constituency. do you think he's influenced by or even aware of public opinion? >> wenders: i can say one thing: he is the most fearless man i ever met. >> wertheim: fearless? >> wenders: fearless. and he is not influenced by polls or whatever. i don't think he would ever consider any public opinion over something he means and he's convinced of. he's totally fearless, because he has a lot of opposition.

>> wertheim: do you think he's aware of that? >> wenders: i think he's totally aware of that. >> wertheim: that fearlessness was on display in the interviews. wenders could ask any question he thought apt. imagine asking the pope why god allows children to suffer. >> pope francis ( translated ): it's a question that we all ask ourselves. and if you ask me why children suffer, the only thing i can say is: "look at the child of god on a cross." i don't know what other answer to give you. but let's talk about why god allows it, which is the core of the question. quite simply, because he created us as persons, and as such: free! god is respectful of freedom.

he allowed his son to be killed on the cross. the game of human freedom: god risked a lot here! it would more dishonor man, if god could take away his freedom, than if man, with his freedom, committed a crime. >> wertheim: it's precisely this kind of candor- without dogma-- that wenders found so appealing. a filmmaker for more than 50 years, he says this project gratified him like no other. as for his star, he noticed that pope francis projects a quality that even the best actors can't fake: "presence." a rare combination of charisma and authenticity. but who knew that the sitting

pope could also moonlight as a screenwriter? >> wenders: in the last talk, i had told him, "we don't really have an ending for the film. i need a moment that will close the movie." and he nodded, and he looked. and then we started the interview. and at one moment, i realized, now he was on it. he was on it. and i realized it was consciously so, and it was what i had asked. but it came from a very different angle. >> pope francis ( translated ): an artist is an apostle of beauty, who helps others live. let's think of all the artists who achieved that. but also all of us! and if you ask me: "give me an example of beauty, simple everyday beauty, with which we can help others feel better and be happier," two things come to my mind. a smile, and a sense of humor.

>> wertheim: and in keeping with that, this shepherd of more than a billion catholics is happy to let the world in on a small secret. >> pope francis ( translated ): here i make a personal confession. every day, after my morning prayer, i recite saint thomas more. his "prayer for good humor." "sense of humor." it starts in a way that makes you laugh. give me, oh lord, a good digestion, but also something to digest." that's it.

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>> stahl: zoos have always been places where people come to marvel at, and connect with, the wonders of the animal world. but with more and more species endangered in their natural habitats, zoos have had to change their stripes. they have shifted their focus to conservation, and gone is the old practice of bringing in exotic animals from the wild. but without them, zoos today have to re-populate from within. and it's complicated. it turns out that behind every baby animal crowds flock to see, and biologists want to protect, there's an elaborate mix of science, software, genetics, and moving vans. it's no longer the old-fashioned

birds and bees at the modern zoo. it's more like match.com. >> look at the baby. >> stahl: animals with babies- always a sure-fire hit at the zoo. it's what all living creatures are biologically programmed to do: mate; rear young; and pass their genes on to the next generation. >> is he a boy? >> stahl: but you might be surprised to learn that long before the babies, and even long before the making of the babies, there is this... >> keith: we have three potential females that can move. >> stahl: ...a decidedly un-romantic meeting, in an unromantic-sounding place called "the population management center." >> amanda lawless: and that's a good pairing. >> stahl: in this conference room at lincoln park zoo in chicago, population biologists like amanda lawless use

computers to search out the best genetic matches for just about every zoo animal in north america. >> lawless: things like flamingos can have hundreds of animals. and, in a planning meeting, we are going to talk about every single animal in that population. so-- >> stahl: come on. you have-- if you have a meeting on flamingos-- >> lawless: yes. >> stahl: you're going to talk about every single individual flamingo in every zoo in the united states? >> lawless: so, some of these can take quite a long time. >> stahl: what this leads to is zoo animals traveling the country in search of love-- or at least a good genetic match. layla, the rhino in front, moved from kansas to chicago to mate with nakili, who seemed interested. >> hello. >> stahl: this marmoset monkey just flew in from omaha to meet her mate, and on the morning we visited, one of these warthogs was loaded into this crate for the nine-hour drive to his new home, and prospective love interest, waiting in maryland.

oh, they're eating! imagine transporting a polar bear... >> ron kagan: that's nuka. >> stahl: ...detroit zoo executive director and c.e.o. ron kagan can. >> stahl: so where did the male come from? >> kagan: he was born in denver, then went to pittsburgh, and then came here. >> stahl: did he go to pittsburgh to mate as well? >> kagan: yes. >> stahl: oh my goodness. he's-- a traveling-- swordsman. >> kagan: well, that's what we do. >> stahl: it began back in the 1970s, when zoos largely stopped getting animals from the wild and had to learn to manage their populations themselves. they came to realize that one major risk in a closed system, says geneticist bob lacy at the chicago zoological society, is inbreeding. >> bob lacy: the simple thing to do if we were breeding animals would be, for example, to have 100 giraffes in zoos and just let them breed on their own. the problem with that is if we did that, probably five or ten of the males would be good breeders, and they would exclude the other males from breeding, and we would very rapidly have a population where everyone is closely related to everybody else, and therefore we would lose diversity.

>> stahl: lose diversity, meaning genetic diversity, since all the other giraffes' genes would be lost. so lacy and a few colleagues developed software now used worldwide to assess animals' lineages and calculate ideal couplings, to make sure all genetic lines remain in the mix. can i call you the father of computerized animal dating? >> lacy: ( laughs ) >> stahl: but it is computerized dating, and we smile about it-- >> lacy: it is, yes-- yes, it is. >> stahl: --but it really is. that's-- that's what you're involved in-- >> lacy: and in ways-- well, i don't know much about human computerized dating, but in ways that are probably comparable, that we have to look at a lot of different factors. not only inbreeding, but social compatibility, age differences, how far away they would have to move. >> lawless: so we'll have those three transfers... >> stahl: lawless and her team use lacy's software every day. she gave us a mini-tutorial... can we look at gorillas? >> lawless: yes. >> stahl: ...starting with a list of every gorilla in an

accredited zoo in north america. louisville, atlanta, milwaukee, cincinnati. for each gorilla, there is basic information. >> lawless: so, that's its parents. >> stahl: the father, the mother, birthday. a complete family tree, tracing its ancestry all the way back to the wild. oh, that's so interesting. and most importantly, this genetic ranking, done by an algorithm, with males on the left, females on the right, that rates each animal by how rare its genes are, and therefore how desirable. >> lawless: so you can see little rock has the fourth most valuable female. >> stahl: it then tells you the genetic value of any pair of animals you choose, on a scale of one to six. >> lawless: so you can see, when we pair these two animals, that they're getting a one. so number one is the most valuable. two is still valuable. >> stahl: all the way down to sixes, which she says should never breed. can i try? >> lawless: yes. so all you have to do is click anywhere... >> stahl: i have to say it was oddly thrilling to be a gorilla matchmaker.

look what i just did. i found you a one. ( laughs ) >> lawless: so, yes-- >> stahl: my pair was a male from dallas, and a female from columbus. it seemed to be very promising. i'm feeling so good about this. ( laughs ) but she said we still had to check a few details. >> lawless: okay, the age. we didn't just pair up a two- year-old with a 20-year-old, did we?" and we didn't. so she's 17, he's 21. >> stahl: next, we'd have to check on their temperaments and compatibility. will they get along? >> lawless: will they get along. >> stahl: if so, they could end up here, in what are called breeding and transfer plans-- species-by-species reports the population management center sends to every zoo... oh, and here are the rhinos. oh, what are these, beetles? >> lawless: yeah, so that's-- >> stahl: you have a whole book for beetles? >> lawless: yes. >> stahl: ...telling them literally what every single one of their animals should do, with whom. >> lawless: so, we want 2735 to breed with 2764, because that's a genetically valuable pair. >> stahl: valuable not because their genes are special somehow,

but because they're less common. but what about species that live all together in big groups-- like penguins, or flamingos-- so zoo managers can't control who pairs up with whom? well, there's a system for that, too, says lincoln park zoo's executive vice president megan ross. >> megan ross: what we do is we put together a grid where the females are on one side, and the males are on the other. and then, for each pair that could possibly happen in that flock, we have a recommendation. >> stahl: again, "one" for the best genetic matches, down to "six" for the worst. so what happens if the pair that's six, wants to breed, or tries to breed? >> ross: we might do egg management, where we might take the egg and replace it with a dummy egg so that their eggs would not hatch. >> stahl: you actually go in and take their egg and replace it with a fake egg? >> ross: we do.

>> stahl: we witnessed "egg management" in action. the keeper, creeping in with a basket of dummy eggs, and notes on which birds have partnered up. she checks to see which pairs laid eggs overnight, then makes a switch. when you take an egg away and put in that dummy egg, are they not aware that the dummy egg is not their egg? >> ross: as far as i know, they do not realize that we have swapped their eggs out. >> stahl: they sure didn't seem to notice. and how's this for egg management? this pair of european white storks used to get high genetic ratings, but they've had so many babies, their genes are now too common. so when they laid another egg last year, the zoo took it, and gave them someone else's-- the egg of a genetically valuable but inexperienced pair of storks from cleveland.

>> ross: the stork parents at cleveland metropark zoo were not really attending to the nest in a way that we thought they were going to be good parents. so they sent their egg to us, and we swapped out the eggs. >> stahl: you brought a fertilized egg here to chicago from cleveland? >> ross: we did. >> stahl: it hatched last may. >> ross: and now this pair is actually rearing another pair's chick. >> stahl: do they know it's not theirs? >> ross: i don't think so. >> stahl: so, stork foster parents. >> ross: you probably thought they just delivered the babies. >> stahl: ( laughs ) your program-- to create this genetic diversity, requires an enormous amount of cooperation. and i was under the impression that zoos compete. they compete for the panda, they compete for exotic animals. >> lacy: yeah. >> stahl: are zoos not competing any more? >> lacy: zoos are still competing. you know, zoos compete for audience, for publicity.

for all kinds of things. but someone gave me a good example the other day of baseball teams. obviously, baseball teams compete, but a single baseball team on its own is pointless. it can't do anything. >> stahl: yeah, you need a league. >> lacy: the same thing's true of zoos. if zoos were all independently operating and not willing to work together, we would all sink. our populations would die out on us. they would become highly inbred. so we do compete in a sense, but we recognize that we will all succeed in conservation together or not. and zoos are now working on conservation with wildlife agencies as well, to rescue wild species in distress, like the mexican gray wolf. these wolves once lived across the southwest, but were viewed as predators and killed off. >> lacy: so, by 1980, they were gone from the wild-- >> stahl: i mean, seriously gone? >> lacy: they were gone. >> stahl: the u.s. fish and wildlife service brought the last remaining wolves to zoos, to see if they could pull off a miracle and bring the species back from just seven, what biologists call "founding," animals. >> lacy: so we used the computer analyses to decide exactly which animals should be bred each

year, how many to breed, so we didn't lose any of those seven lineages. >> stahl: and it worked. is that a pup? oh yeah, okay, i see it. >> lacy: and from those seven, they've increased numbers up to, now, about 250. and they've been releasing them in the wild for about the last 20 years. >> stahl: wow. but zoo geneticists are still at it. last spring, when litters of puppies were born here at chicago's brookfield zoo and in the wild, zoo staff took two of the newborns from here and switched them with two from the wild pack. to make sure the mothers wouldn't reject them, the staff coated the pups with dirt and urine from the dens they were going to. the mothers in both packs are now raising the exchanged pups as their own. we saw, with storks, that they swap the eggs-- >> lacy: right. >> stahl: but you're actually swapping the actual pups. >> lacy: the pups. because the wild has so few

animals, that if we didn't do some swapping, they wouldn't have any appropriate mates. so we swap between zoos and the wild just the way we swap between zoos. >> stahl: but zoo genetic matchmaking isn't just success stories. there are dilemmas and moral quandaries. how do you stop animals with "do not breed" recommendations from mating? and what happens when animals breed too well, and zoos don't have enough space? they can't just make them disappear... or can they? that's where our story takes a surprising, some would say darker turn, when we come back. mcdonald's new fresh beef quarter pounder has left nathan speechless. so here is john goodman to speak for him. that there is 100% fresh beef. yumoroonie. and that cheese is so melty man my mouth is like woah there buddy. i'm entering a world of flavor cooked right when ordered.

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>> stahl: zoos around the world have adopted genetic breeding programs similar to the one in the u.s. as a result, many species are breeding better in captivity than ever before. but that success has brought challenges, and differences of opinion. case in point: how to manage animals that don't get a breeding recommendation-- animals whose genes are already well-represented in zoos? one radical solution: culling them-- killing them. that's what the copenhagen zoo in denmark did a few years ago with a healthy, two-year-old giraffe named marius, and it caused an international uproar. a warning: this part of our story contains some difficult images that young children may not want to see. but first, the preferred american solution for zoo animals who aren't supposed to breed.

>> see one? gorilla! >> stahl: bahati is a 27-year- old gorilla at the lincoln park zoo in chicago. every afternoon, she and the other gorillas here get a snack. being gorillas, they don't bother to unwrap it. but unbeknownst to bahati, hers has something special mixed in. bahati is on the pill. >> ross: our gorillas take the birth control pills every single day. >> stahl: the same stuff we take? >> ross: the exact same stuff that we do. >> stahl: come on. >> they all have their packets. >> mike adkesson: so ours actually come from walgreens. >> stahl: no. >> adkesson: yeah, same 28-day pack. >> stahl: mike adkesson is the chief veterinarian at chicago's brookfield zoo. >> stahl: for all what-- the gorillas? chimps? >> adkesson: gorillas, chimps, orangutans, our gibbons. >> stahl: look, walgreens. >> adkesson: walgreens. >> stahl: look at that. who knew? >> adkesson: yeah. >> stahl: aww, look! and that was just the beginning. turns out, all kinds of zoo animals use all kinds of

contraception. she got a "no breed" recommendation? >> adkesson: she got a "no breed" recommendation. >> stahl: this monkey, anesthetized for her annual physical, was getting a birth control implant between her shoulders. >> vet in detroit: her dose is two, because she's big. >> stahl: at the detroit zoo, there was an aardvark getting a birth control implant in her leg. now there's a sentence one never expects to say. and then there was dr. adkesson's next patient... oh, my! hello. what a strange-looking creature you are. ...a furry fellow called a rock hyrax, who dr. adkesson says is somehow related to an elephant. >> stahl: what? >> adkesson: yes. from an evolutionary standpoint, closest relative is the elephant. >> stahl: no. elephant or not, he too was getting a contraceptive implant. >> adkesson: it's about the size of a grain of rice. and this plunger's just going to push it out under the skin. >> stahl: but not everyone thinks putting zoo animals on contraceptives is a good idea.

look at those eyes. they're huge. at the copenhagen zoo, which participates in a european genetic breeding program, they have a different philosophy. here, as bengt holst, director of research and conservation told us, they're against birth control. they think animals should be allowed to breed and raise their young, just as they would in the wild. do you think that there's an ethical issue when it comes to not allowing animals to breed? >> bengt holst: yeah, i think so. >> stahl: to raise their babies? you think it's ethical? >> holst: yeah, i think-- i think it's ethical, because that's actually a big part of their-- their normal behavior. parental behavior is a 24-hours job for one year, two years, three or four years, depending on the species. and we should not take that away. >> stahl: but that means offspring, who need new homes in other zoos once they reach adolescence, and it gets tricky. >> holst: the female cannot grow up here in this zoo, because then she will mate with her father. >> stahl: so the father would mate with his own child?

>> holst: if she stayed here until she got mature, then he will start mating her. >> stahl: it's not that difficult to place young female giraffes in other zoos, because giraffes live in harem groups, where one dominant male lives and breeds with several females. but for young males, it's tough, particularly for ones whose parents have bred well, so their genes are not considered valuable in the breeding program. that's what happened to marius-- and this is where our story takes that dark turn. born at the copenhagen zoo six years ago, marius needed to move when he reached the age of two and did what adolescent male giraffes do-- start challenging their fathers, trying to take over the harem. >> holst: we could see that they had started fighting. and-- i mean, at the beginning, it's just a little bit pushing around. but then at-- at some stage, he started getting scratches on the side, because the father had pushed him up against a tree and had really hit him hard. and if we have left him with the father, he would have killed him, i'm sure.

>> stahl: in the wild, this is when marius would strike out on his own, a time when in nature, many animals are killed by predators. but in the zoo, there was nowhere for him to go, and with no spots for him in the european breeding program, the zoo thought their only choice might be to euthanize him. you did have suggestions of what to do, short of killing this beautiful animal. some people said, "why not just release him in the wild?" >> holst: yeah, we cannot just release a giraffe into the wild. it would be killed immediately, because all space is occupied by other giraffes. >> stahl: i know there was a very wealthy american who offered to take marius. >> holst: but for what reason? he will keep a single giraffe, which is a social animal. that will be really bad welfare for this giraffe. we will never send an animal to a place where it won't have a good life. >> stahl: so on a cold february morning, the zoo went ahead and ended marius' life.

>> he was shot dead yesterday by a veterinarian. >> stahl: marius' death got worldwide attention, and condemnation. >> judge jeannine pirro: you should all be ashamed of yourselves! >> stahl: here you tell us that zoos are there to save the animals and protect animals. and then the zoo kills an animal. >> holst: but that's exactly what we do. we protect animals. we protect animal populations. and in order to protect animal populations and make sure that they are healthy, also far into the future, we need sometimes to take some animals out of this population. normally, we have nothing against killing healthy animals in the wild. i mean, in america, you hunt deer. in denmark, we hunt-- >> stahl: well, some people hunt deer... >> holst: some-- yes, but you eat meat. most people eat meat. and meat comes from live animals. >> stahl: if it's killing or contraception, isn't the contraception better than the killing? >> holst: no, i don't think so, because contraception-- by contracepting the animals, you take away a huge amount of their natural behavior. >> stahl: as opposed to their life. >> holst: decreasing their

welfare. we need to give an animal a good life. no animal has an expectation of, "i can become 20 years old or ten years old or two years old." animals live in the present. the important thing must be to have a good life as long as they live, be it two months or 20 years, doesn't matter. >> kagan: killing a healthy animal is killing. it's not euthanasia. >> stahl: ron kagan, from the detroit zoo, adamantly opposes culling. he says the focus on genetics and saving species shouldn't outweigh compassion. >> kagan: we have assumed 100% responsibility for the life of those animals that live here. so, for us, we're concerned with individual welfare, not just conservation. >> stahl: under pressure from animal rights activists, and those who think animals shouldn't be locked up at all, zoos have tried to improve the quality of life of their animals, and kagan's been a leader in that effort. back in 2004, detroit was the first american zoo to give up

its elephants for ethical reasons, when kagan says it became clear they were suffering in the cold climate. and he's worked to create larger and more natural habitats for the animals. >> kagan: i want every individual animal that lives here to have a great life. >> stahl: but he would say the same thing. >> kagan: well, you-- it's pretty hard-- >> stahl: and the good life includes pregnancy and-- >> kagan: right. >> stahl: --giving birth and so forth. >> kagan: well, the idea that you say you should be able to have a baby, but then you're going to kill it. i honestly, that-- it's very hard for me to see how that works on any level. i don't want to kill healthy animals. >> stahl: how about dissect them? the day marius was killed, the zoo conducted a public autopsy-- considered educational in denmark-- then fed what was left of his body to the zoo's lions. the autopsy. done before the public, with little kids standing right there.

now, you got a lot of criticism for that. >> holst: yeah, that's right. you have to realize, first of all, that this is normal in denmark. that we do open dissections of animals. it's because we believe that animals are fascinating, but not only when they are wandering around on the savannah, but also if you open them up, because then suddenly you can explain some of the biology. for example, why is the heart of a giraffe that big, whereas yours and mine is just like a little apple, or big apple? that's of course because the heart has to pump the blood five meter up in the air. you cannot do that just by looking in a book. there was a big crowd watching. it was bitterly cold that day, but they stayed because they were so fascinated by it. and the kids, they really-- i would claim they loved it. >> stahl: you fed marius to the lions. >> holst: after we did the autopsy, we have a little bit more than 200 kilo of meat left. should we just throw out this meat and then kill a cow in order to feed the lions? so we take another good life? or should we use the meat that

was there already and feed it to the lions? >> stahl: why was that done before the public? >> holst: why not public? because we have nothing to hide. this is just natural that an-- lions eat meat, and lions eat giraffes. >> stahl: because you want the public to support not only your zoo, but other zoos. and people don't want to know-- >> holst: yes, they do. people want to see these things, because that's normal and that's natural. and i think if we hide it, we do a really wrong thing, because then we show people a wrong picture of what nature is really about. >> stahl: while not all european zoos practice culling, it is permitted under european zoo association rules, which call it "one of a range of scientifically valid solutions to the sustainability of animal populations in human care." >> how do they sleep? >> stahl: so what about zoos on this side of the atlantic? the a.z.a., the association of

zoos and aquariums, do they ban culling in the united sta-- it's not banned? >> kagan: no. >> stahl: is it done in the united states? >> kagan: we don't do it. >> stahl: i know you don't do it, but do other accredited zoos? >> kagan: i don't know. >> stahl: it's possible? >> kagan: it's possible. >> stahl: it's a touchy subject, but it is being discussed. two published papers in the journal "zoo biology" explore possible advantages to selective culling, and point out problems with widespread use of contraception. birth control long-term can have harmful side effects, and keeping animals from breeding can cause fertility problems later on, if their genes are needed in the mix. >> stahl: so in other words, it's all a trade-off. >> kagan: i think that's exactly right. life is filled with compromises. it's filled with compromises in the wild, and it's also true in a captive environment. so for instance, we want animals to have as much control and choice as possible in their daily lives. having said that, they obviously don't have the choice to leave the zoo. and we don't let our tigers kill living animals.

and that's a trade-off. >> stahl: speaking of trade- offs, we noticed that the detroit zoo has a young male giraffe over the age of two who is still living with his family, because a transfer plan had fallen through. so why isn't he fighting with his father? well, get this: so what was your solution? >> kagan: so he was castrated. >> stahl: was castrated. >> kagan: right. so, that way he can stay with the group. and he's perfectly healthy and happy, just like people's dogs and cats that, you know, are spayed and neutered. is it ideal? no. >> stahl: back in copenhagen, there are now two young giraffes-- a half-sister and brother to marius. we couldn't help but wonder about their future. is it possible that one or both will have to be culled? >> holst: for the male, it may be an option, yes. >> stahl: marius ii.

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