captioning funded by cbs and ford. we go further, so you can. >> this is an industry that's-- that's out of control. if they don't follow the law, in drug supply, people die. that's just it. people die. >> joe rannazzisi ran the office of diversion control at the d.e.a. and tonight, in a joint "60 minutes"/"washington post" investigation, this high-ranking whistleblower says the opioid epidemic spread because congress was influenced by the drug industry and washington lobbyists. you know the implication of what you're saying: that these big companies knew that they were pumping drugs into american communities that were killing people. >> that's not an implication, that's a fact.

>> this is the 75th year of the hunger games. >> donald sutherland has been described as one of the greatest actors never to have been nominated for an oscar. >> always with the negative waves. >> he's been in more than 150 movies and tv shows, but still agonizes over each character he plays, and is still plagued by self-consciousness about how he looks. ( whistles ) >> its not easy, anderson. it's not easy to know that you're an ugly man, in a business like i'm in. >> i'm steve kroft. >> i'm lesley stahl. >> i'm scott pelley. >> i'm anderson cooper. >> i'm bill whitaker. those stories, tonight, on "60 minutes."

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>> whitaker: in the midst of the worst drug epidemic in american history, the u.s. drug enforcement administration's ability to keep addictive opioids off u.s. streets was derailed; that, according to joe rannazzisi, one of the most important whistleblowers ever interviewed by "60 minutes." rannazzisi ran the d.e.a.'s office of diversion control, the division that regulates and investigates the pharmaceutical industry. as we first reported last october, in a joint investigation by "60 minutes" and the "washington post," rannazzisi tells the inside story of how, he says, the opioid crisis was allowed to spread... aided by congress, lobbyists, and a drug distribution industry that shipped, almost unchecked,

hundreds of millions of pills to rogue pharmacies and pain clinics, providing the rocket fuel for a crisis that, over the last two decades, has claimed more than 200,000 lives. >> joe rannazzisi: this is an industry that's-- that's out of control. what they want to do is, do what they want to do, and not worry about what the law is. and if they don't follow the law in drug supply, people die. that's just it. people die. >> whitaker: joe rannazzisi is a tough, blunt former d.e.a. deputy assistant administrator with a law degree, a pharmacy degree, and a smoldering rage at the unrelenting death toll from opioids. his greatest ire is reserved for the distributors-- some of them multi-billion dollar, fortune 500 companies. they are the middlemen that ship the pain pills from manufacturers like purdue pharma and johnson & johnson to drug stores all over the country.

rannazzisi accuses the distributors of fueling the opioid epidemic by turning a blind eye to pain pills being diverted to illicit use. >> rannazzisi: this is an industry that allowed millions and millions of drugs to go into bad pharmacies and doctors' offices, that distributed them out to people who had no legitimate need for those drugs. >> whitaker: who are these distributors? >> rannazzisi: the three largest distributors are cardinal health, mckesson, and amerisourcebergen. they control probably 85% or 90% of the drugs going downstream. >> whitaker: you know the implication of what you're saying, that these big companies knew that they were pumping drugs into american communities that were killing people. >> rannazzisi: that's not an implication, that's a fact. that's exactly what they did.

>> whitaker: in the late 1990s, opioids like oxycodone and hydrocodone became a routine medical treatment for chronic pain. drug companies assured doctors and congressional investigators, as in this 2001 hearing, that the pain medications were effective and safe. >> addiction is not common. addiction is rare in the pain patient who is properly managed. >> whitaker: with many doctors convinced the drugs posed few risks, prescriptions skyrocketed... and so did addiction. many people who'd become addicted to pain killers turned to shady pill mills-- pain clinics with rogue doctors to write fraudulent prescriptions, and complicit pharmacists to fill them. one-stop shopping for controlled narcotics. >> rannazzisi: pain clinics overnight popping up, off an entrance ramp, or an exit ramp on an interstate. and all of a sudden, there's a pain clinic there. >> whitaker: had you ever seen anything like that before? >> rannazzisi: never.

in fact, it was my opinion that this made the whole crack epidemic look like nothing. these weren't kids slinging crack on the corner. these were professionals who were doing it. they were just drug dealers in lab coats. >> whitaker: you know what a chilling picture that paints? >> rannazzisi: i do, because i watched them get arrested, and i was the one who approved the cases. >> whitaker: despite arrests of unscrupulous purveyors, opioids kept flooding the black market. the death toll kept rising. this map shows the u.s. death rate from drug overdose in 1999. by 2015, the map looked like this. most of these deaths were opioid related. joe rannazzisi told us prosecuting crooked doctors and pharmacists wasn't stemming the epidemic, so he decided to move up the food chain.

>> rannazzisi: there had to be a choke point. and the choke point was the distributors. >> whitaker: what took you so long to go to that choke point of the distributors? >> rannazzisi: this was all new to us. we weren't seeing just some security violations, and a few bad orders. we were seeing hundreds of bad orders that involved millions and millions of tablets. that's when we started going after the distributors. >> whitaker: a distributors' representative told us the problem is not distributors, but doctors who over-prescribe pain medication. but, the distributors know exactly how many pills go to every drug store they supply, and they are required under the controlled substances act to report and stop what the d.e.a. calls "suspicious orders," such as unusually large or frequent shipments of opioids. but d.e.a. investigators say many distributors ignored that requirement. >> jim geldhof: they had a business plan. their plan was to sell a lot of pills and make a lot of money. and they did both of those very well.

>> whitaker: jim geldhof, a 40-year d.e.a. veteran, ran pharmaceutical investigations from d.e.a.'s detroit field office. frank younker supervised the agency's operations in cincinnati. joe rannazzisi was their supervisor. they saw distributors shipping thousands of suspicious orders. one example: a pharmacy in kermit, west virginia, a town of just 392 people, ordered nine million hydrocodone pills over two years. >> geldhof: all we were looking for is a good faith effort by these companies to do the right thing. and there was no good faith effort. greed always trumped compliance. it did every time. but don't sit here and tell me that, "well, we're not sure what a suspicious order is." really? i mean this-- this co-- this pharmacy just bought 50 times an amount that a normal pharmacy purchases, and they are in a town of 5,000 people. you don't know that that's suspicious? i mean, at some point, you're just turning a blind eye to it. >> whitaker: these companies are

a big reason for this epidemic? >> geldhof: yeah, absolutely, they are. and i can tell you with 100% accuracy that we were in there on multiple occasions, trying to get them to change their behavior. and they just flat-out ignored us. >> whitaker: in 2008, the d.e.a. slapped mckesson, the country's largest drug distributor, with a $13.2 million fine. that same year, cardinal health pa both companies were penalized by the d.e.a. for filling hundreds of suspicious orders-- millions of pills. over the last seven years, distributors' fines have totaled more than $341 million. the companies cried foul and complained to congress that d.e.a. regulations were vague and the agency was treating them like a foreign drug cartel. in a letter, the healthcare distribution alliance, which represents distributors, told us they wanted to work with the d.e.a.

"effective enforcement," they wrote, "must be a two-way street." frank, you said you were tough but fair. the industry says you guys were unfair, that you were taking unfair hits at them. >> frank younker: tell that to the people who lost their sons and daughters. see how fair they think it is. >> whitaker: in 2011, more than 17,000 americans died from opioid prescription overdoses. that same year, cardinal health, the second largest distributor, started pushing back at joe rannazzisi. the companies' attorneys went over his head and called his bosses at the justice department, who called in rannazzisi to have him explain his tactics. >> rannazzisi: and it infuriated me that i was over there, trying to explain what my motives were, or, why i was going after these corporations? and when i went back to the

office, and i sat down with my staff, i basically said, "you know, i just got questioned on why we're doing-- why we're doing what we're doing. this is-- this-- this is-- now, this is war. we're going after these people and we're not going to stop." >> whitaker: do you really think you were getting this pushback because you were going after big companies, fortune 500 companies? >> rannazzisi: i have no doubt in my mind. so the question is, why would it be any different for these companies, as compared to the small mom-and-pops that we had done hundreds of times before? >> whitaker: what's the difference? >> rannazzisi: the difference is, is they have a lot of money, and a lot of influence. and that's the difference. >> whitaker: rannazzisi says the inuencrepstry used that money lawyers at the d.e.a. to take a softer approach. former d.e.a. attorney jonathan novak said it divided the litigation office.

he said in 2013, he noticed a sea change in the way prosecutions of big distributors were handled. cases his supervisors once would have easily approved, now weren't good enough. >> jonathan novak: we had been achieving incredible success in an almost unstoppable wave. and then suddenly, it stopped. >> whitaker: novak prosecuted cases brought to him by joe rannazzisi's investigators. he said his case load started to slow down dramatically. >> novak: these were not cases where it was black-- where it was grey. these were cases where the evidence was crystal clear that there was wrngoingn. >> whitaker: he said his bosses started to bog down the system, demanding ever more evidence. >> novak: but now, three undercovers by four officers over three months, that wouldn't be enough. maybe we need an expert to explain how recording equipment works.

maybe we need an expert to explain the system for prescribing. what's a prescription? it-- it-- it felt-- it felt, honestly, confusing, and almost insane. where-- where was this coming from? >> whitaker: jim geldhof says his investigations were getting bogged down, too. he was looking into one mid- sized distributor that had shipped more than 28 million pain pills to pharmacies in west virginia over five years. about 11 million of those pills wound up in mingo county, population 25,000. suddenly, he said, he ran into roadblocks from one of attorney jonathan novak's bosses. >> geldhof: i spent a year working on this case. i sent it down there, and it's never good enough. every time i talked to this guy, he wants something else. and i get it for them, and that's still not good enough. you know? and this goes on and on and on. when this-- these roadblocks keep-- get thrown up in your

face, at that point, you know they just don't want the case. >> whitaker: but this is the d.e.a. that's what you're supposed to do. >> younker: yeah. >> geldhof: you would think. >> whitaker: the d.e.a.'s toughest sanction is to freeze distributors shipments of narcotics, a step which they have only attempted once in more than two years. >> novak: i mean, there's no denying the numbers. at the height of the opioid epidemic, inexplicably, they slowed down. >> whitaker: he said one big reason for the slowdown: d.c.'s notorious revolving door. novak said he saw a parade of d.e.a. lawyers switch sides and jump to high-paying jobs defending the drug industry. once they'd made the leap, they lobbied their former colleagues, novak's bosses, and argued the d.e.a.'s cases were weak and ultimately would lose in court. it had a chilling effect on d.e.a. litigators. >> novak: some of the best and

brightest former d.e.a. attorneys are now on the other side, and know all of the-- the weak points. their fingerprints are on memos and policy and-- and-- and emails going out, where you see this concoction of what they might argue in the future. >> whitaker: you and the other attorneys had been winning these cases. >> novak: all of the time. >> whitaker: the justice department is the agency that oversees the d.e.a. a senior attorney at the department at the time, told us in a statement, "department of justice leadership was not advised that d.e.a. had changed enforcement strategies. any significant policy shift should have been brought to our attention." >> younker: there was a lot of pills, a lot of people dying, and-- and we had tools in our toolbox to try to use and stem that flow. but it seemed, down in headquarters, that that toolbox was shut off. >> whitaker: you're watching an

out-of-control epidemic, and yet you both feel that at the height of this epidemic, your-- your-- your hands were being tied? >> younker: yeah, if it's a war on drugs, then treat it like a war. >> rannazzisi: addiction rate was still increasing. the amount of people seeking treatment was still increasing. it was all increasing. still, the amount of prescriptions were increasing. and we started slowing down. >> whitaker: as cases nearly ground to a halt at d.e.a., the drug industry began lobbying congress for legislation that would destroy d.e.a.'s enforcement powers. that part of the story, when we return.

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talk to your doctor today about getting vaccinated against whooping cough. because dangers don't just exist in fairytales. >> whitaker: in 2013, joe rannazzisi and his d.e.a. investigators were trying to crack down on big drug distributors that ship drugs to pharmacies across the country. he accused them of turning a blind eye as millions of prescription pain pills ended up on the black market. then, a new threat surfaced on capitol hill. with the help of members of congress, the drug industry began to quietly pave the way for legislation that essentially would strip the d.e.a. of its most potent tool in fighting the

spread of dangerous narcotics. >> rannazzisi: if i was going to write a book about how to harm the-- the united states with pharmaceuticals, the only thing i could think of that would immediately harm is to take the authority away from the, the, the, the investigative agency that is trying to enforce the controlled substances act and the s-- and the regulations implemented under the act. and that's what this bill did. >> whitaker: the bill, introduced in the house by pennsylvania congressman tom marino and congresswoman marsha blackburn of tennessee, was promoted as a way to ensure that patients had access to the pain medication they needed. jonathan novak, who worked in the d.e.a.'s legal office, says what the bill really did was strip the agency of its ability to immediately freeze suspicious shipments of prescription narcotics to keep drugs off u.s. streets-- what the d.e.a. calls diversion.

>> novak: you're not going to be able to hold anyone higher up the food chain accountable. >> whitaker: because of this law? >> novak: because of this law. >> whitaker: how hard does it make your job in going after the wholesale distributors? >> novak: i-- i-- i would say it makes it nearly impossible. >> whitaker: this 2015 justice department memo we obtained supports that. it states the bill "could actually result in increased diversion, abuse, and public health and safety consequences." >> novak: they are toothless. i don't-- i don't know how they stop this now. it's a very sad state of affairs. >> whitaker: who drafted the legislation that would have such a dire effect? the answer came in another internal justice department email released to "60 minutes" and the "washington post" under the freedom of information act: "linden barber used to work for the d.e.a. he wrote the marino bill." >> linden barber: hi, my name is linden barber. i'm the director of the d.e.a. litigation and compliance practice at quarles and brady's health law group. >> whitaker: barber went through the revolving door.

he left his job as associate chief counsel of the d.e.a. and within a month, joined a law firm where he lobbied congress on behalf of drug companies, and wrote legislation. he advertised what he could offer a client facing d.e.a. scrutiny. >> barber: if you have a d.e.a. compliance issue, or you're facing a government investigation, or you're having administrative or civil litigation involving the controlled substances act, i'd be happy to hear from you. >> novak: it's not surprising that this-- this bill, that has intimate knowledge of the way that d.e.a., you know, regulations are enforced, the way that those laws work, was written by someone who spent a lot of time there, charged a lot of cases there. >> whitaker: knew the workings? >> novak: very much so. >> whitaker: eric holder was the attorney general at the time. he warned the new law would undermine law enforcement efforts to "prevent communities and families from falling prey to dangerous drugs." the major drug companies--

distributors, chain drug stores and pharmaceutical manufacturers-- mobilized, too. according to federal filings, during the two years the legislation was considered and amended, they spent $106 million lobbying congress on the bill and other legislation, claiming the d.e.a. was out of control, making it harder for patients to get needed medication. a particular thorn for the drug industry and the bill's sponsors was joe rannazzisi. he had been a witness before congress more than 30 times, and was called on again to testify about this bill. >> rannazzisi: 16,651 people in 2010 died of opiate overdose. okay. opiate-associated overdose. this is not a game. we are not playing a game. >> marsha blackburn: nobody is saying it is a game, sir. we're just trying to craft some legislation. let me ask you... >> whitaker: rannazzisi, who admits to having a temper, felt so strongly about the damage the bill could do, he lashed out at marino's committee staffers.

>> tom marino: it is my understanding that joe rannazzisi, a senior d.e.a. official, has publicly accused we sponsors of the bill of "supporting criminals." this offends me immensely. >> whitaker: congressman marino from pennsylvania said that you accused him of helping criminals. >> rannazzisi: i've never accused congressman marino of helping criminals. i said that this bill is going to protect defendants that we have under investigation. and if congressman marino thinks i accused him of something, i don't know what to tell you. >> whitaker: but a week after the hearing on legislation that would hobble the d.e.a.'s enforcement authority, marino and blackburn wrote the inspector general for the justice department, demanding

that rannazzisi be investigated for trying to "intimidate the united states congress." >> matt murphy: there were people in industry that didn't care much for joe rannazzisi, wanted him silenced, or wanted him out of the way. basically, unceremoniously kick him to the curb. >> whitaker: after almost 30 years with the d.e.a., matt murphy, rannazzisi's lieutenant, became a consultant for the drug industry, an industry with which he's now disillusioned. he said he was shocked at the animosity he witnessed toward his friend and former boss. >> murphy: my theory is that, you know, the industry, through lobbying groups, donated a certain amount of money to politicians to get a law passed that, that favored the industry. and also maybe-- maybe using those political ties to-- to have joe removed. >> whitaker: congress launched an investigation of him? >> murphy: right. >> whitaker: and he was out?

>> murphy: yeah, pressure was put on for him to be moved out. i'm pretty confident of that. there was no reason to take the guy who was the most qualified person in d.e.a. to run the office of diversion control, out of the office of diversion control. >> whitaker: the investigation requested by congressman marino against rannazzisi went nowhere, but soon after, rannazzisi was stripped of his responsibilities. he says he went from supervising 600 people to supervising none. so, he resigned. >> rannazzisi: we were totally focused on all these people dying and all these drugs being diverted. and-- and we were not really looking at our flanks, waiting for somebody to come after us. so maybe that was my fault. and i just never realized that that was something that would have occurred.th the d.e.a. signed of t version of the "marino bill." a senior d.e.a. representative

told us the agency fought hard to stop it, but in the face of growing pressure from congress and industry lobbyists, was forced to accept a deal it did not want. the bill was presented to the senate in march of 2016. >> whitaker: majority leader mitch mcconnell brought the bill to the senate floor, where it passed through unanimous consent, with no objections and no recorded votes. >> without objections... >> whitaker: it passed the house the same way, with members of congress chatting away on the floor. >> for that objection, the bill is read a third time and passed. >> whitaker: a week later, with no objections from congress or the d.e.a., president barack obama signed it into law, without ceremony or the usual bill-signing photo-op. marino issued a press release the next day, claiming credit for the legislation.

the drug distributors declared victory and told us the new law would in no way limit d.e.a.'s enforcement abilities. but d.e.a. chief administrative law judge, john j. mulrooney, who must adjudicate the law, wrote in a "marquette law review" article that the new legislation "would make it all but impossible" to prosecute unscrupulous distributors. >> rannazzisi: i just don't understand why congress would pass a bill that strips us of our authority, in the height of an opioid epidemic in places like congressman marino's district, and congresswoman blackburn's district. why are these people sponsoring bills, when people in their backyards are dying from drugs that are coming from the same people that these bills are protecting? >> whitaker: why do you think that is? >> rannazzisi: because i think that the drug industry-- the manufacturers, wholesalers, distributors and chain drugstores-- have an influence over congress that has never been seen before.

and these people came in with their influence and their money, and got a whole statute changed, because they didn't like it. >> whitaker: seven months after the bill became law, congressman marino's point man on the legislation, his chief of staff bill tighe, became a lobbyist for the national association of chain drug stores. since the crackdown on the distributors began, the pharmaceutical industry and law firms that represent them have hired at least 46 investigators, attorneys, and supervisors from the d.e.a., including 32 directly from the division that regulates the drug industry. mike gill, chief of staff for the d.e.a. administrator, was hired by h.d.j.n., one of the country's largest healthcare law firms. and most recently, jason hadges, a senior d.e.a. attorney overseeing enforcement cases during the slowdown, joined the pharmaceutical and regulatory division of d.c.-based law firm hogan lovells.

he declined to speak with us. amerisourcebergen and mckesson declined our requests to appear on camera. so did cardinal health, which hired the author of the bill, linden barber, as senior vice president. with scott higham and lenny bernstein of the "washington post," we called the head of public relations of cardinal and asked to speak with barber: this is bill whitaker. i'm a correspondent with "60 minutes." i was calling to see if we could speak with linden barber? we were told the company would not make him available. we also tried for several months to speak to congressman marino. finally, we went to his d.c. office. hello. i'm bill whitaker with "60 minutes." >> staffer: yes. >> whitaker: and we'd like to speak with congressman marino, if we could. >> staffer: i'm going to have to refer you to our chief of staff. >> whitaker: we were told he was not available. >> chief of staff: okay, can you please turn the camera off? and we have to ask the camera to leave the office.

>> whitaker: his staff then called the capitol hill police on us. >> capitol police: just accept the un-invite and leave the area. >> whitaker: when joe rannazzisi looks back, he has one regret. >> rannazzisi: you know all these people that died, happened under my watch. the one thing i wanted to do, the one thing that i just thought would have the most impact, is to lock up, arrest, one of these corporate officers. you arrest a corporate officer. you arrest somebody that's-- that's involved in the decision process, knowing what the law is. if you make that arrest, then everybody sits up and takes notice, because three-piece-suit guys just don't do well in prison. they don't. >> whitaker: after our story aired, the justice department urged congress to rewrite the law that stripped the d.e.a. of its enforcement powers. despite some proposals to repeal or replace it, congress has taken no action.

joe rannazzissi now consults with state attorneys general who have filed suit against distributors for their role in the opioid crisis. tennessee congresswoman marsha blackburn is now running for the senate. as for congressman marino, he was nominated to be president donald trump's drug czar, but two days after we broadcast our story, he withdrew his nomination. he is now running for reelection to congress. the update is brought to you by the lincoln mode company. hello everyone and happy father's day day. one over par the winner of an event become the first back-to-back champion of tournament since 1989, in the people the costa rica, mexico

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>> cooper: donald sutherland has been called one of the greatest actors never to be nominated for an oscar. he's appeared in more than 150 films and tv shows: "mash," "klute," "ordinary people," "the hunger games," just to name a few. you may recognize his name. you've definitely seen his face. but you probably don't know much about donald sutherland, the man. at 82, he's still one of the hardest-working actors around. and as we first reported in december, he's still agonizing over each character he plays, and still plagued by self- consciousness about how he looks. he's never forgotten what happened after his very first film audition more than 50 years ago, when the writer, director, and producer of the movie he tried out for called him on the phone. >> donald sutherland: the writer said, "you did such a terrific job." and the producer said, "we thought you were really wonderful, and we all wanted to call you together, to explain to you why we weren't casting you."

i mean, we have to-- the reason why we're not casting you is because we've always thought of this fellow as a kind of-- a guy next door, sort of guy. and to be absolutely truthful, we don't think you look like you ever lived next door to anybody." ( laughs ) no. but it's the story of my life, you know? >> cooper: that's the story of your life? >> sutherland: yeah. >> jane fonda: who is it? >> cooper: donald sutherland may not look like the guy next door... >> sutherland: i'm an investigator; i'd like to ask you some questions. >> cooper: ...but that hasn't stopped him from carving out one of the longest-lasting and most unconventional careers in the film business. he's played leading men... >> sutherland: i guess the whole of life's nothing but an accident, is it? what happens to you. >> cooper: ...and all manner of misfits. >> sutherland: ( yelling ). >> cooper: he's turned up in army field hospitals: >> sutherland: scratch my nose, there. yeah, a little harder, please. >> cooper: english country estates: >> sutherland: i could not have parted with you, my lizzy, to anyone less worthy.

>> cooper: and the toniest corners of upper manhattan. >> sutherland: money! this is the 75th year of the hunger games. >> cooper: he's had a particular soft spot for bad guys. >> sutherland: did your mother make these? >> cooper: and over the years, he's played a lot of them. >> sutherland: don't lie! you promised. >> cooper: a lot of the roles you take on, though, are not always sympathetic. >> sutherland: they're not sympathetic to you. but they're sympathetic to me. >> cooper: they are? >> sutherland: yeah. sometimes they don't feel very good about what they've done. >> cooper: even if it's a pyromaniac in "backdraft"? ( laughs ) your eyes light up like a pyromaniac, right now. >> sutherland: i'm sorry, but i mean, he was so excited, you know? got the whole place going like hell. my hair was on fire, my hands. everything. i was dead. >> cooper: to prepare for these roles, he spends months immersing himself in the script, poring over the parts as he conjures the characters to life.

you try to find something in the role, that-- >> sutherland: i don't find it. it finds me. i mean, i will read it, and suddenly, it starts churning around inside me. and then, it gets violent. and then, it gets loving. and the-- the-- the-- it's-- it's an extraordinary thing. it gets more and more and more exciting. it's delicious. it's-- ( laughs ) but, it is, it is! >> cooper: when we first met sutherland, he was shooting a scene in italy for the fx series "trust," in which he plays the oil magnate j. paul getty. when he's filming, sutherland says he needs, more than anything else, an intimate, creative relationship with his director. he describes his experience working with the legendary italian director federico fellini as a love affair. >> cooper: why do you see it in romantic terms? >> sutherland: because it is. >> cooper: there's that intimacy? >> sutherland: yeah. and sometimes it's rejected. and sometimes it's accepted and embraced. >> cooper: and when the film is done, the affair is over? >> sutherland: it's gone.

>> cooper: do you have a cigarette after? >> sutherland: ( laughs ) no, but you have regret. >> cooper: if there's a slight sadness about sutherland, it may be because his childhood in canada wasn't easy. he survived polio as a toddler and spent all of fourth grade at home with rheumatic fever. he was an awkward kid. tall, with big ears. at school they called him dumbo. when he was 16, he had a question for his mother. >> sutherland: and i went to her and i said, "mother, am i good looking?" and my mother looked at me and went... "your face has character, donald." and i went and hid in my room for at least a day.

>> cooper: did what she say stay with you? >> sutherland: not really. just-- just for-- 65, 66 years. ( laughter ) it's not easy, anderson. it's not easy-- to know that you're an-- an ugly man, in the business like i'm in. >> cooper: do you think of yourself as an ugly man? >> sutherland: unattractive is a gentler way of putting it. >> cooper: his insecurities didn't stop him from acting in plays in college. in the early 1960s, he started picking up work in television and b-movies, like "castle of the living dead." you'd be forgiven if you've never heard of it. that's sutherland playing the part of a soldier and a witch in the same scene. >> sutherland: you all right? >> cooper: the early years were a struggle. sutherland had twins, including his son kiefer, then three more children with his wife of 45 years, the actress francine racette. his big break came in the "dirty dozen," and it happened entirely by chance.

sutherland only had a bit part, until one of the lead actors told the film's director, bob aldrich, he didn't want to appear in this scene. >> sutherland: and bob aldrich looked at him, like that. then, he went, "you with the big ears, you do it." ( laughs ) i don't think he knew my name. but i, you know, it changed my life. where are you from, son? >> soldier: madison city, missouri, sir! >> sutherland: never heard of it. >> cooper: hollywood producers saw star power in that brief role. ♪ ♪ he was offered a lead in "mash," then played a hippy tank commander in "kelly's heroes," earning a place in hollywood as an oddball icon of the early '70s counterculture. >> sutherland: there you go, more negative waves. have a little faith, baby! >> cooper: as his career took off, something happened that sutherland still doesn't quite believe.

the guy who grew up thinking he was ugly, became a sex symbol. >> sutherland: now tell me about frank ligourin. >> cooper: in 1971, he played the enigmatic private detective in the hit "klute," alongside his then-girlfriend, jane fonda. >> sutherland: would you mind not doing that? >> cooper: fonda won an oscar for her performance. sutherland wasn't nominated. we were surprised to learn, sutherland's never watched "klute" all the way through, and he says he rarely sees any of the movies he stars in. his main interest, he says, is his performance. how the film ends up being put together is out of his hands. one of the nice things about the job i'm doing is-- i have a fair amount of control over the finished product. >> sutherland: you do? >> cooper: yeah, and that's not something, as an actor, you have much control over. >> sutherland: excuse me. you used the wrong word. you used the word "much." the operative word is "any." >> cooper: you have no control over it? >> sutherland: none. none, except in performance. >> cooper: that may be a polite way of saying, if the film is a

clunker, don't blame sutherland. one critic about a television show you were in said, "the question is not just what a class actor like sutherland is doing in trash like this, but whether sutherland is actually in a different show entirely." >> sutherland: what was the show? >> cooper: "dirty, sexy, money." >> sutherland: oh, excuse me! that's not trash. that was a really, really good show. oh, i'm offended! it's such an extravagant accusation to make. >> cooper: is that something you ended up watching? >> sutherland: huh? >> cooper: did you watch it? >> sutherland: ah, no. ( laughs ) but-- but-- >> cooper: what do you mean, you didn't-- you didn't see it? >> sutherland: no. >> cooper: so how do you know it was good? >> sutherland: because i was in it. i don't mean it was good because i was in it. i mean, i-- because-- because doing it, you knew it was good. and you knew from the response of people on the street. >> cooper: wwere sin sutherland at his lakeside estate in southern quebec, where he steals time between film shoots.

in an old pumphouse by the water... >> sutherland: i had vertigo, and i'm climbing that goddamn thing. >> cooper: ...we set up a makeshift screening room to watch some of his most iconic performances. it quickly became clear to us that, decades after he's finished a film, the character he's created stays with him. in this scene from the 1973 thriller "don't look now," his character discovers his daughter's body in a pond. >> sutherland: ( crying ) oh, this is going to be a hard day for me. >> cooper: so even now, the character comes back to you. the character's still there? >> sutherland: yeah. yeah. it's interesting, i-- i never thought of that. they must all have their little niche somewhere in my-- in my person or in my soul or something, yeah. yeah. >> cooper: sutherland insists he's never given much thoughto the trajectory of his own career, or viewed it as a climb to stardom. >> cooper: a lot of actors, they want to take on roles where

they're-- >> sutherland: because they're vertically organized. >> cooper: what does that mean? >> sutherland: it's actors who say, "okay, i've done this." is a correct character to play to do this, to do this, to do this. >> cooper: to kind of a career ladder. >> sutherland: yeah. >> cooper: i've done a dramatic role. now, i'm going to do a comedic role, this or a romantic lead. >> sutherland: yeah. and mine is, like, a great, big wooden platter of fruits and pasta and chicken salad and a soup and-- a banana, you know. it's a whole bunch of different things. you might not like everything on the thing, but you can go and grab something and peel it and eat it and like it. >> cooper: that may explain in part why sutherland has never gotten an oscar nomination. that, and his style of acting, which is subtle and restrained, never showy. the 1980 film "ordinary people," won best picture, best director and an oscar for the screenplay. >> sutherland: because i don't know if i love you anymore. and i don't know what i'm going to do without that.

>> mary tyler moore: come on, give me the camera. >> timothy hutton: dad, give her the camera. >> sutherland: i want a really good picture of the two of you, okay? >> cooper: mary tyler moore was nominated for an oscar for her role in "ordinary people." >> sutherland: not until i get a picture. >> cooper: timothy hutton won one. >> hutton: give her the goddamn camera! >> cooper: sutherland was ignored. now, at a stage in life when peers half his age are slowing down, sutherland seems to be speeding up. after shooting one week in italy, we met him again on a soundstage in los angeles where he was filming scenes for an upcoming science fiction movie. and, he has a new film coming out, "the leisure seeker"... >> sutherland: let me make you a cup of coffee. >> cooper: ...in which he plays an aging professor, alongside helen mirren, who embarks on a road trip as he grapples with old age and dementia. >> helen mirren: john, what's happening? >> sutherland: where are we? he may be the nicest man i've ever played.

who was losing his mind. and totally and utterly in love with his wife. >> cooper: it's very bittersweet about, things slipping away, about love and aging and-- did-- did it resonate? >> sutherland: what do you think, anderson? ( laughs ) just look at me! sure, you know, all of it. every bit of it. are we there yet? >> mirren: almost. >> cooper: donald sutherland didn't end up getting an oscar nomination for "the leisure seeker," but last fall, he finally did get that little golden statue which has eluded him for so long. a lifetime achievement award, presented to him by his "hunger games" co-star jennifer lawrence, in a special ceremony in hollywood. his family, almost all of whom are in the film business, was there to cheer him on. >> sutherland: i finally found peace in the words of the great

benjamin kubelsky, who is also known as jack benny, when he said, as i say to you now: "i don't deserve this, but i have arthritis and i don't deserve that either." ( laughter ) thank you. >> donald sutherland says he left this interview with an utter sense of failure. >> no, i don't view this as a failure. i view me as a failure in it. >> go to 60minutesovertime.com. ! not much. just stopped paying too much at verizon and switched to sprint's unlimited 55+ (vo) the new unlimited 55+ from sprint. for people with hearing loss, two lines for only $35 per month per line. visit sprintrelay.com tnow introducing aleve back and muscle pain. only aleve targets tough pain

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>> whitaker: i'm bill whitaker. we'll be back next week with

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previously on instinct: i want to go see a friend who may be able to help. wait. i'll drive. he works undercover. (rings doorbell) dylan: i'll take whatever you can get on the victims. who are you? where did you find out all this? does it matter? of... it matters if i want to get a warrant to back up these rumors. you know things you're not telling me, but these are my cases. ♪ (quiet chatter) (explosion) (people screaming, frantic chatter)