good morning and welcome to mosaic. it is always a privilege to host mosaic. i want to thank elizabeth and the staff for giving a tribute to you last month. he was a longtime host and producer for over 30 years. i met him back in the early 70s when i began a ministry. he was there at the presbyterian church. i was at the united methodist church. we were involved in the clergy.

alfred smith got us involved in the city council, the school board and our emphasis was on social justice. then he ended up being a pastor while i was a pastor at easter hill. we continued our ministries together. about 17 years ago he asked me to host here. i was mentored along with elizabeth and we are grateful for all of this ministry. we want to thank his wife for the wonderful celebration of his life that we had about five weeks ago. blessings to you gail and your family and all that you have contributed. you have been all over the world with you. your ministries to pakistan. have always admired and appreciated that. i am grateful for all he is done. one person he admired deeply,

as many of us have was howard thurman. whenever i would have this guest on he would say make sure you allow time this guest. reverend doctor dorsey blake. glad to have you. >> it's great to be here. i always appreciate the opportunity. >> you told me earlier that you have been there how many years? >> 25+. i first went in 1992. so 25+. the actual celebration will be next year. we are also going to have a conferen we are expanding it hopefully to 2 to 3 days. we have to do more than what is react -- what is just a reaction. we have to create a world that works for more people.>> we

hope to have this for 3 days. >> the church for this fellowship is where? >> market street between broadway and blair. as you know, this was the first interracial church. it was started by two doctors who believed that if people came together and had deep religious experiences that they would have a sense of unity people li. >> we have been going on for wo >> sewed different races and

creeds and -- >> we have jewish folks and buddhists. we have communist. >> we have people with no religious background. they found this.>> doctor thurman attracted many of them. so it was a very full -- powerful book and probably his most recognized. many other people added to this book. >> he met with gandhi. >> he met with him in 1936. he was part of a pilgrimage. they were chosen to go to india in 1935.

it was not until 1936 that he actually met gandhi. they discussed nonviolence. gandhi said it could be through the [ null ] that nonviolence would have his great x position. >> we will hear more about that.>> let's come back to that. >> thank you. >> please, join us as we talk further about the spirituality and his impact. thank you for being with us.

welcome back. we have been talking to the reverend, dorsey blake. i asked him before the break, why does her -- howard thurman matter? >> he believes in the search for common ground. it is -- he has spent his whole lifetime wanting me to meet -- me to be me and you to be you. if i go deep inside myself i will look at you. he believed that we were related. spiritually related. what hurt you hurt me.

he was always one the scent to find the same thing in you in terms of this territoriality as i find within myself. it is important, especially today because, through the church and other places, he put together a model for people to come together, not to divide. he believed that where we are stripped to the substance of ourselves, we stand before god, male, female, black or white, wiest and as a soul. that does not negate our identity. it is a way of saying that there is something within each person that is and longs for the hunger of the heart and the

connection with ourselves and the all pervading presence. >> that is a tremendous summary. that is only touching the surface. that is wonderful, the way you speak about him. >> find the grain in your wood. >> that is what he told me when i was younger man. >> he matters because his spirituality helped me to find my own spirituality. i am comfortable in my search with my own spirituality. i grew up baptist. i have no problem with that at all. as a young person,d to the scri i found truth and -- in pro -- poetry and elsewhere. i often wondered, does this

violate my christian background? he told me it was okay. he said what is true in religion is true because it's true. it is not true because it is in the religion. that allows me to explore poetry and nature. he loved to hear the ocean. he liked to stay near water. the ocean. it was freeing. i could search for truth and accept it as true. >> that is really good. i mentioned helen keller recently. she said if she could see she wanted to spend three days. the first day see her friends the

second ac york city. >> she wanted to see the energy and excitement. she was an extraordinary port -- person. >> you have touched on it. you mentioned gandhi. let's go back there. gandhi's influence on him and the way he talked about nonviolence and jesus and the disinherited. i remember the ride, what do you do when your back is against the wall. >> he said he could not find many sermons. what about the person with their back to the wall? look today. so many people have their back against the wall. they don't have control of society who is constantly crushed by society. his quest was, how do you live

in that kind of situation and maintain your own integrity? one thing -- when you talk about spirituals, he said we were climbing jacobs ladder. so what he was trying to say was , how do you carve out and negotiate life and maintain your integrity in oppressive situations. jesus did it. this is what jesus did. he made decisions about how he was going to live his life. we all have to do that. he dealt with those things that really oppressed the oppress -- oppressed. they are afraid to have certain encounters with people. their fear keeps them incarcerated. people survive by trying to

deceive or wear a mask or by being hypocritical. if you do that, even though there could be some justification for that, you don't want to tell people this and you try to negotiate with people in power. the more you deceive, the more likely it is that you will become an exception yourself. >> that is so true. >> then he talks about hatred and how that consumes a person. that person's control -- in control of you. the hatred destroys all of your creativity. he keeps you from being creative because your whole living, your whole thought goes toward the hated object or person. instead, you should take control of your own life and move forward. >> that is needed today. we do a lot of reaction to what is going on. how do we take control of our

own lives and create the kind of world that there needs to be. he says we can do it but you have to make choices and be willing to commit. face the consequences of those choices. we can do it. one of the most radical things, when you read that is that jesus did it. he talks about the vision of jesus and the humanity of jesus. he said because jesus was a human being who laid -- made these decisions and became an extraordinary person that we still talk about, all of us can do it. he took away our excuses. >> i love that. i hate to stop it right there. we have to go to a break. that is really a great understanding. >> thank you for that. >> please come back. i know you want to hear more in our next segment with the

reverend doctor dorsey blake. we'll be right back with more news, weather and sports. you're watching kpix.

welcome back. if you did not know who howard thurman was, you could 9 pm because of doctor dorsey. he has been pastor of the church for 25 years. you have a complication. >> yes. >> every year we have holly thurman. we do that in conjunction with the church's anniversary. this one was quite amazing. we had extraordinary panelists. we talked about racism, immigration and collective liberation. we do this to introduce and commemorate thurman's life and work but to say, let's move

forward. what are the issues facing us today and what do we do to deal with those. >> he was born in florida and 18 89. he became -- he loved the ocean and the darkness of the sky. he loved nature. he met with gandhi in 1936. he became go pastor in 1944. then in 1953, he became the first black person to be deemed and ordained. he also expanded. he did this inof dance and want in service. surprises g ake.

>> mentors of mine were there. they talk about that. yes. >> the first minute or -- minister i work with talks about that time. he says it was so special and precious. >> so then you have that every year? >> yes. the third sunday in october yearly. >> why do you think he influenced martin luther king jr. and so many people? why him? >> i would say, if you read doctor thurman and doctor king, you will see the influence. king the person who applied much of what ia reality. i to influence people. many people were interested in social action. king carried a copy of jesus

and the disinherited. people solve social actions in his writings. it created a way forward to deal with critical issues and separation. he was -- for king in particular, the families knew each other. thurman new doctor king's father. >> mrs. thurmond new martin luther king's mother because they were daughters of ministers and they met through baptists circles. the families knew each other. when doctor thurman was at boston university, king was there finishing his doctorate. >> i hewent thurmato watce ries. they kw >> at that point when he was

there talking to doctor thurman francisco to be pastor of the fellowship church. >> isn't that something. my question is what if he had come to sanford let's go in that of going? that is when she learned that he had just decided to go to montgomery. what if he had come. would there have been a civil rights movement without kings leadership>> that is a very interesting question. >> on the surface, mrs. king, san francisco looked like a better place to be. caretta was an opera singer and he may have taught in that. he was offered positions. >> i want to come back to, people were trying to read thurman. i want to recommend

some of the books to get the whole of him. with talk about his role. >> yes let's not forget that. please come back for our last segment as we learn more about howard thurman.

we have been with reverend doctor dorsey blake. he has shared with us how thurman influence. tell bout the book series. >> the most critical book to read is jesus and the disinherited. it is a book that influenced king and so many others.

he has quite a few books of meditation. for people interested in racial issues and how that came to be, the darkness is a fabulous book . many people don't know about that. >> doctors -- doctor thurman's own favorite book was the inward journey. i asked them that personally. >> i would read his auto -- autobiography. for those who like social prayer, the central moment. >> there are so many books that he's peeks of -- the mood of chrisman. -- christmas. that has beautiful poetry. >> another one just came out, the perils of jesus. >> up

i am fascinated by this. >> i got the last copy. >> you did. >> all right. at my installation service in 1990 or, it was a difficult time in my life. what happened was, at my installation service mrs. thurmond presented me with doctor thurman's robe. she said this robe has not been worn since howard's death and it resonated. >> she placed it on me and i was wiped out. i could not. i really could not. >> i couldn't. i stood there and finally lolita came and

held me. on the third sunday in january, martin luther king sunday, we will have eric williams who is with the smithsonian is to african-american museum and i will present that robe to him. i have had it all this time. only one other person has ever worn that. it is fragile. i thought that it might be an inspiration. i was contacted by the alabama group about that his robe? >> we also have thegiving those smithsonian.>> that is

wonderful. what do we have one minute. we have to mention the 139 psalms why did he love that so much>> it is so intimate. dad -- val knows me. it is that kind of, the wall. he talks about the dark and the lightness. both are alike. he is dealing with, we don't have these dichotomies. that happens too much in life. he said no, even with the darkness of light there is ity . >> you have to come back. you have over the years. i always appreciate it. >> praise god. >> thank you.

>> can -- continue your work. >> i hope you will continue with us next month.

♪ ♪ ♪ the holidays begin here at the disneyland resort.

things can be replaced. kids can't." they left with nothing but their lives.. live. this is kpix news. i've lost a lot. >> they escaped the camp fire. others were not so lucky. the number of deaths have doubled. >> today is november 11. >> good morning. old red flag warning. firefighters are still battling the camp fire. the number of deaths have jumped from nine to 23. >> we are trying to identify the remains and make contact with the next of kin. my heart goes out to those people.