gad morning and welcome to mosaic i am ron swisher. it's privilege to host mosaic on behalf of elizabeth and my cohost, i want to that i elizabeth and the staff here for giving such a wonderful tribute to hugh burels last month. he was a long time host as well as producer over 30 years. i met him in the early 70s wh m oakland he was there at high street and i was elmhurst united methodist and we were involved in the east oakland clergy, the president was dr. jay alfred smith and he got us

involved in the city council and school board and and our interest on social justice began there and hugh was there and i was in richmond at eastern hill so we continued our ministries together. and then about 17 years ago, he elh being a host here and so i so we are grateful for the ministry and we want to thank gail his wife for the wonderful celebration of his life we hadat about 5 weeks ago in he will is a reado gleeing -- blessing to you and you family and all you contricked. you've been all over the world with hugh and your ministry to pakistan and many trips there i admired that and i preeshted that. so -- apreabt preeshted that. -- appreciated persons he admit mired as many of us have is

howard thurman the great spiritual religious giant among us. and when ever i would have this guest on he said make sure you allow time for this guest. and reverend dr. dorsey blakegreat to have you. >> thank you. great being here. i appreciate the invitation and opportunity to come to mosaic. >> you told me earlier you've been there how many years? >> 25 plus i first went to fellowship church in 1992. i was not installed until 1994. so that's 25 plus. so the actual celebration of 25 years will be next year. and we are going to have a major conference. it's not just the howard thurman we are expanding it 2 or throw days to look at where are we now and we have to do more than react to what is happening politically and socially. and we have to create something new. >> okay. >> create a world that works for more people. that's the focus next year. >> imbued. good.

>> and we hope to have it for 3 days hopefully. >> now the church. for the fellowship of all people. >> yes. >> is where? >> it's san francisco, 2041 larkin street between broadway and have a layo. and the church for the fellow of all people, as you know, was the nation's first intentionally interracial interfaith church. it was started in 1944 by dr. howard thurman and dr. alfred physical being who believed -- fisk who believed if people came together and had deep relingous experiences, that there would emerge nse of unity among them that would undercut the barriers diverse people live national race shall gender and we have been going on for 74 years. wi75. >> -- you are -- next year will bep 5 -- 57. >> you are talk -- 75.

>> row are talking about different races -- you are talking about different races. >> we have jewish folks in the congregation a couple buddhist. communist in the congregation. people who had no relingous back ground. but they have found this -- and dr. thurman attracted many of them. and some people said is this what this church is about? than i want to be part of it. so, it was a very powerful book. it's probably his most powerful -- most well recognized book. and was very influential in dr. howard and dr. king,. >> that's right. >> samuel proctor. >> and meeting with gandhi had tremendous influence. >> he met are gandhi in 1936 he was part of a pilgrimage he and his wife and two other people, the carols were chosen to go to berm ha and india in 1935. and it was not until 1936 that he actually met with gandhi.

and they discussed nonviolence. >> that's right. >> that's when gandhi said it could be through the negro the american kneeingo at that time that, nonviolence would have its greatest eggs poe ?ietion we will hear more about that because wouldn't things i thought of is why the howard thurman matter. this day. so let's come back to that. >> okay. >> thank you. >> plows join us as we -- please join us as we talk further about how spirituality and impact on all of us thank you for being with us.

welcome back to mosaic. we have been talking to reverend dorsey blake about the howard thurman and i asked him before the break, why does howard thurman matter. >> howard thurman believes in the search for common ground. and he believed he spent his lifetime for wanting me to be me and you to be you. >> and ifgi down deep inside of myself with my deep spirituality i will come up inside of you. he believed that were related.

spiritual related. and what hurt you hurt me. and he was always on what hecalled the scent to find the same thing in you in terms of the spirituality as i find in myself. he's important because especially today, because he, through the church and other plays, put together a model for people to come together. not to divide, but to come together. and he believed that when we are stripped to the literal substance of ourselves, we stand before god as neither male, female, black or white but a presence. there's a human soul that d that's nonegated ouidentityocu it's a way sayi that ersomeg g in ch person ithat ngs e nge

ourselves but with what he calls the all prevading presence. >> that's tremendous summary and that's touching the surface but that's wonderful the way you speak about him. one of my favorite quotes is that find the grain in your own wood. >> yes. that's what he told me when i was -- >> yes. >> he matters because his spirituality helped me to find my own spirituality. and to be comfortable in my search for my own spirituality i grew up baptist my father is a baptist minister. i have no problem with that at all, but as a young on, i nobe confined to that's why i say radical even the scriptures and found truth in poetry and truth elsewhere but i wondered does this violate my

baptist understanding. this is nonchristian i am reading somebody who's not a christian but the person speaks to me and dr. thurman told me it was okay. he said that what is true in religion is true because its true. it's not true because it's in that religion that. allowed me to explore the truth wherever in poitry and nature which is one of his foundation he loved the oak tree in his backyard. and he loved to hear the ocean. he liked to stay near waterch the ocean. but it was just kind of freeing of the human spirit to search for truth for every -- wherever you may find it and accept it as truth. >> that's really good. i mentioned helen keller recently. >> yes. >> and she said if she could see, she wanted to spend thday seeing nature. and the third day, to see new

york city. with all that energy and excitement. >> right: she was an extraordinary person. >> wasn't she. >> quite extraordinary. >> yeah. but you have touched on it. i mean, again, we -- you mentioned gandhi. let's go back there for a moment. gandhi's influence on him and the way he talked about nonviolence and the jesus in the disinherited. >> right. >> >> i remember the line what do you could when -- do when you have your head back againsts wall. >> that's why he rode wrote jesus disinherented and he said he couldn't find sermons preached by person with the their back against the wall. and look today with so many people with their backs against the call. who do not have control of this society who are could be sanityly crushed by the society, so his quest was how do you live in that kind of

situation and retain or maintain your integrity. would of the things when u you talk about the spiritual we are climbing jacob's ladder the question is how are you lived your life in the knowledge of your truth. so what he was trying to say is how do you carve out, how did you negotiate life and maintain your integrity in oppressive situations. and he said jesus did it. and here's some -- this is what jesus did. he made certain decisions about how he was going to live his life. and we all have to do that. and he dealt with the things that really oppressed the oppressed. fear, oppressed people are afraid. they don't know what this society is going to do to them. they are afraid wi fecarcertryig

ceive or wear mask or being hypocritical but his point was if you do that even though there could be justification for it. you don't want to tell people your business when you are trying to negotiate with people in power yu. don't want them to crush you. more you deceive the more likely you will become a deception yourself. >> that true. amen to that. >> he talks about hatred and haw that consumes a -- and u how that consumes you. hatred destroys your creativity and keeps you from being crow ative because your whole living, your whole thoughts goes towards hated obof your own life and moving forward. so, when you look -- that's -- we do a lot of ntrol of our ow and crow ate kind of world that needs -- create the kind

ofworld that needs to be he says we can do it but you have to be din disciplined and make choices and willing. >> commitment. >> commitment. face the consequences of that commitment or those choices. but we can do it. and one of the most radical things he says when you read that, at the very end e. said jesus did it and he talks about the religion of jesus and humanity of jesus and said because jesus was human being who made these decisions, and became an extraordinary person that we still talk p. he took away all of our excuse nice love that. i hate to stop it but we have to go to a break. but that's really great understanding of thurman. and jesus. thank you for that, dorsey. please come back. he know u be archingous

welcome back to mosaic if

you didn't know who howard thurman was you get an idea because of dorsey's intimacy with him knowing him and pastoring the church for a good 25 years and he knows his many, many books. but awed complication sometime ago. >> yes. >> every year we have howard thurman convocation in conjunction with the church's anniversary. >> okay. >> and this was just quite amazing. we had two extraordinary panelist reverend debra leaf and phil hutchins and talked about racism, immigration and collective liberation. and that's what thurman was about. collective liberation. if we do it to inoduce and commemorate thurman's life and work but to say let's move forward. >> okay. >> what are the issues facing us today and how do we inorida >> that's ght. >> in 1899. and he became there are many things about his childhood e

loved the ocean. he loved the darkness of the sky. he really loved nature. he 1936, he became copastor of the fellowship church in 1944 and then 1953 he became the first black man black person african american person to be deemed of a predominantly white theological seminary and that was boston university. >> that's right. >> so he was there 12 years before he was able -- so many things drama and church group dance and so on because berpses beg e my>> oh. >> so they always talk about that. >> john foster. >> yes. >> first minimums tar i worked with. he always talks about that time. he said that was so special. >> yes. >> and precious. >> yes, he. >> so that convocation is year.

>> every year, the third sunday in october. >> october. and that's great to have that. >> right. >> and lift him up. why do you think he influenced well dr. martin luther king junior and so many people, but why him? >> i would say if you read dr. thurman and read dr. kenning you will so the influence. in many ways king was the person who applied much of what thurman talked about in of social reality i think he influenced people. many of the people you action. d are people committed it is said that king carried a copy of jesus and disinherited and those involved with social actives saw this extraordinary understand from gandhi and putting together his spin on it a way forward for people to deal with the most critical issues in american society. racism and all kinds of

separation. so, he was -- than -- and then for king in particular the families knew each other. thurman knew dr. king's father. they were at morehouse together. >> that's right. >> and mrs. thurman knew martin luther kenning's mother because they were both daughters of baptist ministers and they met through baptist circles and so on and the families knew each other. so one of the things that was interesting is when dr. thurman was at boston university king was finishing his doctorate. >> i didn't know that. >> and he went over the world series. because they knew each other. >> how about that. >> it was at at point when he was there talking to dr. throughman mrs. thurman asked martin luther king about coming to san franciscos to to be pastor of fellowship church. >> isn't that something. >> my question is what if? >> what if?

>> what if he had come to san francisco instead of the montgomery because that's when she learned he had just decided to go to montgomery. what if he had come to san francisco. would there have been a civil rights movement at the level it was without king's leadership? >> provocative question. yes. that's very. >> and on the surface shall this is king, in san francisco on the surface it looked like a better place to be because coretta was a opera singer and didn't have discrimination. >> plus, he might have taught instead. because he -- he was offered so many positions. but i want to come back to if people were trying nt to commd of the books you think that gets the whole s tas role. >> owings, yes. >> let's not forget that. >> the robe. >> please come back in the last segment as we lesh more about howard thurman -- learn more about howard thurman.

look at you. you're at the top of your game. at work or at play, you're unstoppable. nothing can throw you off track. oh hey, she's cute. nice going man. things are going great for you. you've earned a night out. good drinks, good friends. yeah, we can go ahead and call this a good night. wait, is that your car? uh oh. not smart. yeah, i saw that coming. say goodbye to her. ouch! that will hurt your bank account. you'i hope you like incrseating frozen dinners. alone. let's try this again. smart move. because buzzed driving is drunk driving.

we have been with reverend dr. dorsey blake and he shared with us howard thurman a great deal and even in the few minutes i asked him about some of the books if you wanted to know more about thurman and a robe he is going to tell us about. tell us about the books first.

>> i think that the most critical book to read is jesus and the disinherited. that's the book that influenced king and so many others. then he has quite a few books of meditations. for people who are interested in racial issues and racial divide and how it came to be, the luminous darkness is a fabulous book. many people don't know of that book. >> i know that one. >> and dr. thurman's own choice of favorite book was the inward journey. i asked him. >> i like that. t's youravorite book and he said the inward journey and to get a better understanding i would rete read the autobiography with head and heart for those who like centering prayer the centering moment. so there are so many books that he wrote that speaks so deeply. the mood of christmas. >> i was going to mention that. he loved that. >> it has so much of his beautiful poetry. >> that's true. >> yeah. >> there's great ones. and we know one just came out

the pair alf jesus. >> i am glad you -- pairables of jesus -- patience of jesus. >> i am -- pairables of jesus. >> i am glad you told me about that. >> after you told me they are going to order copies. >> i think i got the last copy. >> you did. >> tell us about the robe. >> at my installation service in 1994, it was a very difficult time during my life because i lost my position at the center for black stot why -- studies. >> that's right. >> and what happened was at my installation service in may 94 mrs. thurman presented me with dr. thurman's robe and wiped an and there's clinging. i really. >> 81. >> this was in 94. >> oh. >> he died in 81. >> yes. >> so all the years no one wore it. she kept it and so she placed it on me and i was wiped out i couldn't speak actually.

i really couldn't. i couldn't. and i just toed there -- stood there and finally and lolita and loris came up and held me and so on. well, in the third sunday in january, which is martin luther king sunday, we will have eric williams, who is with the smithsonian institutes african american museum and i will present to him the howard thurman rope robe. >> wow. >> i've had it all that time. only one other person that have wornthat's my cominimumser to katherine benton but it's about therein and it's a little fragile and i thought that in might be an inspiration. i was contacted by them about , yes. so, we the robe of dr. fisk, the cofounder of the church. >> cofounder. >> yes. so we will be giving both of th

the robe of dr. thurman and robe of dr. fisk. >> that's wonderful and a wonderful museum. we can't go without mention the 139th psalms why did he love that so much. >> because it's so intimate. er is he of me and know me and know my down setting and uprising by understanding. the compass is my path. is that kind of the walk the walk with what he called the overbathing presence. and he talkout light >> both alik. >> the light and the darkness are both alike unto thee and he is dealing with for him we don't have the dichotomies and that's what happens too much in life. we have dichotomies. and he is saying no, even with the god the darkness and the light. >> yes. >> unity is there. >> you have to come back.

and you have over the years. >> appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> praise god. >> thank you. >> for continuing that tremendous work you are doing. >> thank you. >> we are learning from it. >> so much. >> i hope you will be with us continue with us next month. i am ron swisher.

live from the cbs bay area studios, this is kpix5 news. >> the man who escaped from san quentin is back in custody. just ahead a. look at how law enforcement tracked hem down. >> also ahead, is california's junior senator about to throw her hat in the ring for the biggest elected office in the nation? >> and can a company face charges of manslaughter and murder? san francisco bay pg&e may be put to the test it's 6 a.m. good morning thanks for joining us i am devin fehely in a i am melissa caen. >> we have a few low clouds this morning. and it is chilly. once again in fact look outside. temperatures in the 30s for most folks with the exception of san francisco