captioning sponsored by cbs >> brennan: it's sunday, january 27th. i'm margaret brennan, and this is "face the nation." >> my fellow americans, i am very proud to announce today that we have reached a deal. >> brennan: but after the record 35-day partial shutdown, president trump's announcement was only partially good news. with just a three-week funding extension, the president's fight for his wall is far from over. >> if we don't get fair deal from congress, the government will either shut down on february 15th again, or i will use the powers afforded to me to address this emergency. >> brennan: house speaker nancy pelosi may this

first round. can she hold firm on the next? >> i have been very clear. >> brennan: we'll talk with acting white house chief of staff mick mulvaney, plus we'll hear from two moderate senators, maine republican susan collins and west virginia democrat joe manchin, on the prospect for a border funding deal. and more fallout from the mueller investigation as trump associate roger stone is indicted. charges against him outline incriminating details on how much trump campaign officials knew about wikileaks' efforts to undermine hillary clinton. we'll have plenty of announcements on all the news and look at the shutdown's economic impact in two key cities. it's all ahead on "face the nation." >> brennan: good morning and welcome to "face the nation." we begin today with the president's acting chief of staff, mick mulvaney. he joins us this morning from

charlotte, north carolina. welcome to "face the >>argaret, good morning. for ha. >> brennan: is the president really py is. keep in mind, he's willing to do whatever it takes to secure the border. he does take this very seriously. this is a serious humanitarian and security crisis, and as president of the united stating he takes the security of the nation as his highest priority. he doesn't want to shut the government down. let's make that very clear. he doesn't want to declare national emergency. what he wants to do is fix this the way things are supposed to get fixed with our government, which is through legislation. one of the reasons he agreed to open the government this week was to essentially take the democrats at their word. while their leadership have been telling us they were not interested in negotiating and taking thisinand hope the president gives up approach, many democrats, rank and file and some lower levels of leadership say, look, we happen the agree with you on border security.

>> brennan: which democrats?urnd we'll have some walls in the future. jim clyburn, my former colleague from south carolina, said if you could convince him the experts said we needed a border barrier, he would vote for that. so many, many democrats, dozens have come out over the last couple weeks to say, you know what, this crisis is real. let's figure out a way to do it properly, but we can't do with it the government closed. what you saw this week was the president take them at their word and say, okay. you all said you want to do this. let's give it a shot and see if over the next three weeks we can do this the right way and pass legislation to fund the government and secure the border. >> brennan: i think there is a difference versus what constitutes a wall and a barrier and language in the past on fencing. that may be what you're gesturing to with those democrats. >> you make a great point. that's what a lot of this is. thect example. it's not concrete. it's not 2,000 miles long. we have democrats with hair on

fire saying they'll never vote for a wall, but theyed money to build that exact wall. in fact, something very similar is being built today. they just voted for another $220 odd million for that same thing two days ago. so we need to get beyond this fight about what's a wall and what's a fence. >> brennan: why does the president think the outcome will be different in 21 days? democrats remained largely unified. it was republicans in the senate who broke ranks. >> because so many of us as i mentioned before, so many of them had come to us and said, you know what, we think you might be right on this barrier thing, but we cannot negotiate with you during a shutdown. we don't like the fact that a president might use a shutdown as a negotiating tool, so if you open the government up, we'll negotiate with you in good faith on a border barrier. now is their chance to do that. >> brennan: when will federal employees receive their pay for the work, the back pay, and what about all of those contractors who don't necessarily have job guarantees? are they going to be made full? >> the contractors will depend

on the contract, and let's talk about the employees for a second, because i know late bit more about that. a couple different payroll providers in the federal government, and how an employee gets paid or which payroll provider covers their agency will dictate how long it takes. some of them could be early this week. some of them may be later this week, but we hope by the end of this week all the back pay will be made up. of course, the next payroll will go out on time. >> brennan: s&p, the ratings agency, says this costs around $6 billion. it was a drain on the u.s. economy. looking at the numbers, you actually think this 35-day shutdown was worth it? what did you accomplish? you don't have money for the wall. you don't have a down payment for the wall. you say it's an emergency, but now we're waiting three more weeks before the president comes to a decision on how he's going to deal with it. >> is it worth it for the president to secure the nation? keep in mind, he's not making this up. there really is a humanitarian crisis on the border. there really is a security crisis on the border. i know that some people want to

stick their head in the sand and say that's not the case. we have data there are hundreds of known criminals in the next caravan that is coming up through mexico today. these are not made-up numbers. if you're the president of the united states and you know you have to defend the nation, do you want to shut the government down? no. do you want to declare a national emergency? no. but you do need and want to defend the nation. he's going to do that. i disagree with the concept that we don't have anything that we didn't have 35 days ago. now we have a bunch of democrats saying they're willing to work with us. 35 days ago all we had was nancy pelosi saying that under no circumstances would she ever give any money at all far walch that's clearly changed. i think things are moving in the right direction. negotiations are far from over. everyone wants to say the president loves. we're still in the middle of these negotiations. he just agreed to open the government while that was going on. the president takes this deadry deadry -- deadly seriously. it's his number-one priority to secure the nation. he'll do anything to do that. >> brennan: the president tweeted this morning and said

there are 26 million illegal immigrants in the united states right now, not the 11 million that the u.s. government has previously relied upon as the accurate figure. where did this number come from, and are you saying that government census data has just missed millions of people over the past few years? >> i think we million in previous interviews. i think that number was accurate a couple years ago. we know it's going up because we know that 60,000 new illegals are coming across each month for the last three months, again, a number that is not made up. that is a real number some we know the number has to be higher than 11 million. i've seen numbers as high as 30 or 40 million. i don't know where the president got that number. but he's trying to point out how silly this debate it. this is only enough money to build about 240 miles of wall, the very highest priority that customs and border patrol have told us they need in order to secure the border.

most of it in texas. i think he's trying to draw attention to the fact that while the democrats are dug in because they're apparently incapable of working with the president, incapable of giving the president any type of victory at all, that we're spending so much money on other things. it's qoot absurd. this should have been resolved a long time ago, and we do hope it guess resolved in the next 21 days. >> brennan: i want to ask you about the president's friend, roger stone, who was indicted this week. have you spoken to the president about this? >> no. in fact, i have never met roger stone. keep in mind, all the stuff you see happening with roger stone doesn't have anything to do with the white house. it doesn't have anything to do with the president, and certainly doesn't have anything to do with the staff at the white house, which is what i manage. so i'm dierl out of the loop on that one. >> brennan: so because you manage the staff can you say none of trump campaign officials named currently work at the white house? >> again, you're talking to someone who has nothing to do with the campaign, i do not know how to answer your question. >> brennan: so you don't know the answer to the question? >> yes, ma'am. >> brennan: do you think it's

a problem the lie the congress? that's one of the things roger stone is charged with? >> margaret, that's one of the easiest questions you've ever asked me. yes, i think it's bad to lie to congress. >> brennan: because the president's tweet seemed to inminimize that. he was tweeted about roger stone being indicted for lying to congress. he kind of... >> i think he was trying to draw attention, and republicans have talked about this for many years. i was in congress when james clapper flat out lied to congress and then admitted it and nothing happened to him. in fact, he's still featured on many networks, maybe even your own, as an expert on dealing with congress and an expert on various things having to deal with his area of expertise. that's absurd. it's in more right for him to do it than anybody else. the president is drawing attention to the double standard, that somehow the trump administration is held to a higher standard than the previous administrations.t's wri hope you would agree it's wrong, as well. every administration should be held to the exact same standard. >> brennan: all right. thank you very much.

mick mulvaney, for joining thus morning. >> thanks, margaret. >> brennan: we turn now to maine republican senator susan collins. senator, this 24-page indictment from the special counsel lays out written communication between roger stone and senior trump campaign officials. they seem to be coordinating the timing and the release of information from wikileaks, which had those hacked e-mails obtained by russia. what does this pattern tell you? >> well, i really don't think we can draw conclusions until the special counsel has finished his work. but what this indictment and many others have shown us is the importance of the special counsel being allowed to complete his investigation unimpeded. >> brennan: roger stone and others have dismissed this as process charges, but what's in the indictment lays out this connection with russian intelligence giving information to wikileaks.

mike pompeo, when he was c.i.a. director, called wikileaks a hostile intelligence service embedded by russia, do you think working with wikileaks should be considered a crime? >> you have to know the circumstances of it, but i have great faith in mr. mueller's ability to pursue a fair and thorough investigation. he's not yet reached conclusions, but there is a disturbing pattern of lying to congress that we're seeing in these indictments, and no one should be allowed to do that with impunity, so i'm very pleased that the special counsel is pursuing indictments where he believes individuals have lied to congress. >> brennan: one of those individual, michael cohen, another former trump adviser, also facing some jail time, accused of lying to congress. he admitted to it, to lying to your committee. he is being subpoenaed to testify. what is it that you need to hear

from him and when? >> well, we need to hear from him as soon as possible, but we need to ask him all the questions that he answered previously, because we now know that he was not truthful. and in this case, he has been convicted of lying to congress. so we invited him in to testify, and when a subpoena became necessary, it has been issued. >> brennan: i want to get to the shutdown. there is no immigration deal yet. there is no border wall, no partial funding either, and there is a $6 billion price tag according to s&p to the shutdown. what was actually accomplished? >> well, i would say absolutely nothing. shutdowns are never good policy ever. they are never to be used as a means to achieve any kind of goal, no matter how important that goal may seem to be. they are ineffective. they cause them does hard to

innocent federal employees and their families who are struggling to pay their bills without paychecks. they hurt those who depend on government services. we see the impact on air transportation just this past week on small businesses that have contracts with federal agencies, and ultimately they damage the economy. and that is why prior to the shutdown in a meeting with the white house, i conveyed to the president my belief that he should not pursue this route. >> brennan: was the white house and congress too slow to realize the kind of pain and impact you're talking about? your colleague lisa murkowski was stunned by elected members didn't feel the impact until they were delayed going through security at airports. >> brennan: it didn't come as a surprise to me back in 2013 when we had a 16-day-long shutdown. i led a bipartisan group that produced a plan the reopen government. i heard from mainers who worked

for federal agencies who told me of their personal hardships. and it was heartbreaking to hear that. so i don't know how any member of the administration or of congress could think that a shutdown was a worthy pursuit. it never is. >> brennan: director mulvaney, chief of staff mulvaney now, said there is opportunity created here, that's what was won. what's the best thing you can get in the next 21 days? >> the best agreement that we can get is an agreement on border security, but an agreement to fund federal government through the end of the fiscal year, which is september 30th. no more short-term stopgap funding measures, and we cannot have the threat of a government shutdown hanging over our people and our economy. i hope he will join us, i expect that he will, in working very hard during this next 21 days to

prevent us from being back in the same situation. this is urgent. >> brennan: a wall ultimately gets funded through is this? >> i think what will happen is the efforts to continue to build barriers, which have gone on in the last two administrations, will continue, but not to the degree that the president has requested. what we should do is ask the non-partisan experts and customs and border patrol, what are their biggest problems. it's going to be a combination of physical barriers, technology, more border patrol agents, more immigration judges, more censors. it's got to be an all-of-the-above approach. >> brennan: i want to ask you about a private matter that became public this week with your colleague senator joni ernst. she revealed she had been the victim of rape in college, and it became public that she had suffered a abuse at the hands of her now-ex-husband. i think many people see a lot of

resilience in her. why are we hearing more in from the party in terms of support for her? >> i reached out the joni as soon as i read the devastating news, and i will tell you that colleagues during our lunches came up to her. people on the floor. she is a strong and remarkable woman, and what she has endured has been just horrible. and i know that my heart goes out to her. and i believe that's the case of everybody, democrat or republican. >> brennan: senator, thank you for your time. >> thank you, margaret. >> brennan: up next, a central figure in the shutdown debate, west virginia democratic senator joe manchin. he'll be with us in one minute. that takes advantage of the skills you've gained while serving. you can now search with the phrase 'jobs for veterans' directly on google... ...and then enter your military occupational specialty code.

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word acted upon much these day, senator. >> not used much either. >> no, but the president says there is a really good chance you could see a keel before mid-february. what can you actually get con? >> well, i'm very hopeful. i always have been very hopeful reaching outs. first of all, we'll have to bring -- my good friend susan collins said you need to bring in professionals. there is a lack of trust and a lack of bloaf on both sides. no one believes that these figures are correct or this or that's going to happen or do we really need all $5.7 billion being spent on some kind of secured structure. on the other hand, you know, we know that a lot of our drugs and things that come across are coming through ports ofen try. that's going to be technology, krebsor, things of that sort. i think they can find a balance if you bring an outside special group in, unbiased, non-partisan. >> brennan: who? >> basically professionals, engineers. >> brennan: the secretary of homeland security has been talking to congress. >> the secretary of homeland security by democrats are believing she's being to

basically say what the white house wants her to say. so if you wanto g past that trust or belief, then you have to bring in an outside observer who has the professional ability to say, yes, that is needed. yes, this is going to be. people forget, in 2013 we did a major immigration overhaul bill. we voted for -- every democrat voted for $44 billion of border security. and we still believe border security is necessary. but there is a combination of not just -- >> brennan: how do you get language that democrats will sign off on? you hear from the administration, as you mentioned here, that time and again democrats have voted for barriers and fencing. how do you get what the president wants? >> we volted for that and offered, that but it takes more than that as far as the immigration problem. we have people that came to the country the wrong way for the right reason. they brought children in here that have been here and been productive. they're educated. they're in our military. they're in so many facets of our economy and doing a great job. don't they deserve an

opportunity to be a citizen of this great country? if the president or his hard right wing will look at that in a more compassionate way, i think it would break down the problems we have on the barriers. >> brennan: a path to citizenship in the next three weeks? >> that would be for dreamers and daca, he offered the daca the three years, we're saying, can't those people deserve a ten-year pathway? that would really help an awful lot in moving forward. now we're caught between them. the only way you will stop this from happening again, if one thing comes out of this three-week negotiation, we have a piece of legislation that says we'll never shut down again. and you know how you do that? if we basically ever inflict this pain on ourselves again, we don't get paid. the day the legislators do not get paid, i guarantee you, there will not be a shutdown. people in washington didn't feel the pain. it was the people outside of

washington, all the federal workers and all the millions of people, depending on those services. >> brennan: the president called you wonderful because you were i think the only democrat who signed on the a bill that went nowhere but included the $5.7 billion for his border wall. would you vote for a border wall as he describes it again? >> i have voted for and i will continue to vote for a structure that's in a holistic approach, not just by itself. when you talk about 2,100 miles of border, you're not talking about 2,100 miles of walls, fencing, or anything else. you're talking about smart technology, more agents that we need, more censors at points of entry, all of these things. but also a pathway forward to people here for the right reason. if you want to get rid of the people that created harm and the wrong reason, you got to be able to keep them out when you send them out. so an immigration reform has to be part of it. just putting money toward a structure is not going to do the job that needs to be done. >> brennan: you're trying to be reasonable here.

but as you've heard, there are threats overhanging this in the next three weeks. the chief of staff said the president would be willing to shut down the government again. he also said he doesn't really want to, but he could declare a national emergency. if he goes that route o o declaring a national emergency, does that ultimately backfire or does that get this done? >> brennan: >> here's what people fail to understand. we went through the process of going through appropriations. i'm on the appropriations committee. there are 12 appropriations as far as different issues that we work on and the funding. we passed five of them. there were seven left. the one in contention was basically homeland security. we met the request of $1.6 billion. that changed when it went to the house to $5 billion and came back. so they were going to put basically 30-day c.r. on that one and let the other six pass. that would have kept 90% of government open. that's what should have been done, and i have never seen people held hostage this many millions of people and the

economy of our united states being threatened because we have a disagreement on one issue. >> brennan: until recently you served on the intelligence committee. what do you make of roger stone's indictment? >> oh, i think we have all the confidence in robert mueller. i think he's doing his job. >> brennan: is there a pattern emerging? >> i would be very much concerned, all the people involved in that campaign and all the people that have been proven it's lied to congress. this cannot with tolerated. they should be prosecuted to the fullest amount that's allowed. >> brennan: you're on armed services. there are 14,000 u.s. troops in afghanistan. the secretary of state says there is really good progress and talks with the taliban. taliban says the u.s. may withdraw troops within 18 months. what do you make of that time line? >> well, the time line, i'm not sure about the time line they're talking about, but i think it's time to get out of afghanistan. i think syria is a complete different story. i don't think we should be leaving syria, but in afghanistan, i want to make sure

we keep an air force base. that's a main point()ú that part of the world. i hope we stay in that part, but not at 14,000 strong. we can do our job and do it well, but we have no more reason to be there. i think it is time the leave. >> brennan: thank you, senator. >> thank you, margaret. >> brennan: we'll be right back in a moment. milk, just without that annoying lactose. mmm, that's good. the follow up cat scan showed that it had gone to her liver. we needed a second opinion. that's when our journey began with cancer treatment centers of america. one of our questions was, how are we going to address my liver? so my doctor said i think we can do both surgeries together. i loved that. now my health is good. these people are saints. ha, they're saints. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. this is a tomato you can track

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