>> brennan: this past week the parade of witnesses for democrats' impeachment investigation continued. picking up momentum with some key testimony from state department officials. >> ambassador bill taylor testified and gave the most sweeping and devastating testimony about president trump's efforts to shake down the ukrainian government. >> brennan: that was democrat jamie raskin. taylor's testimony was explosive, implicating president trump as being part of an effort to withhold a meeting and military aid to ukraine until president zelensky would

announce an investigation into former vice president biden's son and his business dealings in ukraine. president trump urged republicans to get tougher and praise democrats, saying: >> they stick together and they're vicious. they don't have a mitt romney in their midst. >> brennan: we go now to former republican congressman trey gowdy, he used to lead the main investigative committee in the house of representatives, and he joins us this morning from greenville, south carolina. good to have you back on "face the nation." >> yes, ma'am. thank you. >> brennan: you told me earlier that you had agreed to work for the white house earlier this month as outside counsel to the president on the impeachment proceeding, but you didn't, and that's because, as you describe it, a restriction on former members of congress in firms of communicating with an intent to influence for about a year after leaving office. >> yes, ma'am. >> brennan: so when that year ends, will you be joining the white house fight?

>> i have no idea. i don't represent the president as of today. i don't know what if anything will exist in january. it may be over. my sense is the president needs folks that can represent him now, before the house, the senate, and indirectly through television shows and print media, but one year, i can't talk to the house or senate, and my reading of that statute, and it's a restrictive reading i'll grant you, but my reading is i can't even commute kate indirectly on behalf of a person with the intent to persuade, so i could not come on your show and give advice to house republicans or house democrats on how they ought to run their investigation if i were working for the president. so i don't even know if i'm going to be alive in january. if dallas doesn't start playing better, i won't be alive in jab. so i don't know who i will be representing. >> brennan: it surprised a lot of people to hear you talk about coming back the washington.

you told us you were so sick and tired of washington and you're going to dive into one of the most divisive, vitriolic arguments that could be had. >> my wife asked me a lot of those same questions. to me impeachment is a political death penalty. there is a reason our country has never removed anyone from office. i look at it as a lawyer. what process is someone entitled to if you were seeking to remove him or her from office and assign to them a stigma that will echo through the halls of history. how much process is due. >> brennan: you're talking about process there, and that's very specific here in terms of some of the criticisms from republicans of this democrat-led investigation. you have said to me on this program in april in 2018 the following: >> well, our private hearing was much more constructive than the public hearing. i mean, public hearings are a circus, margaret. that's why i don't like to do

them. i don't do many of them. i mean, it's a freak show. >> brennan: do you till believe that? >> 100%. >> brennan: so these hearings should remain -- these depositions should remain private? >> well, you can't pick and choose which aspects of due process you're going to use. it's not just the privacy. the reason we respect executive branch investigations isn't because they're behind closed doors, it's because there are no leaks. john durham, you have no idea what john durham has been doing. you have no idea what michael horwitz is going to say in his fisa report. there were no leaks with robert mueller. contrast that with the fact that robert mueller has had more press conferences this weekend hand those three men have had in their lives. he uses an opening statement to give a parody, he lies about a whistleblower. i prefer executive branch investigations because you wait until the end to draw conclusions and there are no leaks. so i do understand the republican frustration with the current investigation. my bias has always been toward

investigations that wait until the end before they share their conclusions. it's just not fair to do it on an hour-by-hour basis. one other point, margaret. there is a reason in courtrooms the judge tells the jury, you can't even begin the make up your mind until the last witness has testified and the last piece of evidence has been introduced. if it's good enough for the justice system, why shouldn't it also not be good enough for the political system? >> brennan: so in other words, the storming of the classified area by some republicans was a bit of a political stunt and you think that what is being revealed behind closed doors should be heard out before judgments are made on whether or not the president should be impeached? >> i think two things. i'm a rule follower. i threw a republican out of a hearing because he was not a member of the committee. i didn't take pictures on the house floor, even though i was in the minority. i'm a rule follower. so i think if you're going to have private investigations with unlimited time for questioning

and cross examining witness, that's a good thing. what's not a good thing to have selective leaks where you pick sentence out of an eight-hour deposition run to a bank of microphones and try to prejudice the outcome of an investigation. again, horwitz doesn't do it. durham doesn't do it. mueller didn't do it. all three of those investigations we have respect for. >> brennan: you're talking about justice department investigations versus the political process? >> absolutely. absolutely. yes, ma'am. >> brennan: but when it comes to the political process here with impeachment and those depositions behind closed doors and about 47 republicans are permitted to be in there for those depositions alongside democrats who are the majority, of course, we heard something this week that was viewed as pretty significant from bill taylor, the top u.s. diplomat in ukraine. he was about the fourth u.s. official to substantiate in his detail, he said from notes that president trump's aid to ukraine

in his conversation with the president, all of this was predicated on the investigations of barisma, the ukrainian gas company hunter biden served on the board of, and alleged ukrainian interference in the u.s. elections. those are two quotes. does that sound appropriate to you? >> well, let's take them separately. is it an impeachable offense to condition aid on cooperating with the 2016 election. are we going to remove a president from office if he conditioned aid on figuring out who tried to interfere in our 2016 elections. i don't think so. >> brennan: congress gets to decide, but "conditioning" sounds a lot like quid pro quo. >> that means something for something. i need to know what both of those somethings. if the something is we're not going to give you aid until you help us figure out who tried to interfere with the will evers of democracy in 2016, margaret, i can tell you, if a democrat did that, we'd be adding something to mount rut mosh.

we spent two years as a country trying to figure white house tried to interfere with our elections, so clearly it can't be an impeachable offense. it can't be an impeachable offense to ask for the server because jim comey wanted the server. so i need to know what's the something. >> brennan: to be clear, on the server, you're talking about the national committee's computer server. are you saying it's hidden in ukraine? >> i have no idea. i have no clue. >> brennan: the president has said that. so it's a theory that's been debunked. >> well, this is a theory that has not been debunked. jim comey wanted the server. i don't think it's an impeachable offense for bill barr to also want the server. i don't have any idea where it is, but i don't think it's an impeachable offense to say, if you know where it is, tell us. there was a point in time that we all wanted to know about that. so what's the statute of

limitations on interfere with with our 2016 elections. i don't know. i've read taylor's opening statement, but i would need to follow up with questions. i would need to also watch what other members ask and significantly what the cross-examination would have looked like before i could draw any conclusions. >> brennan: all right, trey gowdy, thank you for your time today. >> yes, ma'am. >> brennan: when you humble yourself under the mighty hand of god, in due time he will

exalt you. hi, i'm joel osteen. i'm excited about being with you every week. i hope you'll tune in. you'll be inspired, you'll be encouraged. i'm looking forward to seeing you right here. you are fully loaded and completely equipped for the race that's been designed for you.

>> brennan: we're now joined by minnesota senator and 2020 democratic presidential candidate amy klobuchar. good morning, senator. >> good morning. thanks for having me on, margaret. >> brennan: thanks for braving the rain today. i want to ask you about the news of the day, the death of isis leader abu bakr al-baghdadi. >> well, this was a takedown of a very, very dangerous terrorist, and so we have to take this moment to thank those that put themselves in danger, the decision was a good one. and this is a guy that was responsible for the death of so many americans, so many member people. but as susan rice just said a few minutes ago, this doesn't mean that isis is not still there. we still have of course over 100 of the isis fighters that the defense secretary has said got out recently of their confinement. then we have others that are in a prison, and it's unclear who is going to be guarding that

prison some there are problems not just in syria and all over the world. that's what concerns me overall about this president's decision making and about what he has done in terms of breaking down our alliance, leaving the kurds, who gave us intelligence of this operation, leaving them for slaughter. >> brennan: you rightly thank the u.s. military and intelligence for this. president trump signed off on this. >> he did. >> brennan: this is a political win for him. you're trying run against him. isn't this going the make it harder to run against him when he can say, who is the guy who has got baghdadi. >> i have in the past, when the president made the decision to respond to assad's use of sarin gas. i commanded him for that decision. just because you make some decisions, and you must as a commander-in-chief, and you must make those decisions for the security of this country, doesn't mean that his foreign policy overall has not been a disaster. the decision to get out of the iranian nuclear agreement, which

has allowed iran to now bust the caps to enrich uranium, the decision to get out of the russian nuclear weapons agreement, the decision to get out of the climate change agreement at a time when our world is warming, sea levels are rising and we're seeing floods and fires all over the world, those were very bad decisions. >> brennan: so unlike other democratic candidates, would you pledge to keep u.s. troops in syria? >> i would not have removed those 150 troops. i would not have given in to erdogan. >> brennan: so you would keep them? >> i would have kept them there. this never would have happened. but now this damage has been done, so the question is, what do you do now? well, you keep eyeing trying to use your leverage to do everything too defeat isis and you try to do all you can for humanitarian aid. and you certainly try the use the leverage we have remaining to help the kurds. >> brennan: you sit on the

senate judiciary committee, meaning you have some oversight there of the justice department. do you think those isis leaders who are responsible for the deaths of americans all should be extradited for prosecution here to the united states? >> yes. i think that we should go after those leaders. but the pilot of this is not really exactly what we're going to do now. the question is what do we do going forward when the american people have a decision to make. do they want the keep a president in that has been so divisive in this moment where this morning we are unified behind getting rid of terrorists. that's for sure. but every morning, probably tomorrow and the next day, he wakes up and he starts going after immigrants, going after people of color, dividing people, and then not having people's backs when it comes to bringing down pharmaceutical prices or doing something about infrastructure. or doing something to help our farmers who a trade war has left devastated in so many parts of the country. so i think the american people can come together and say, yes, we want to we -- defeat a

terrorist. then they look at what he does every single day in this country, and they want new leadership. >> brennan: you have criticized your fellow democrats for overpromising in terms of providing free services like free college education and the like, but you are now offering two-year college and technical school. how are you going to pay for that, and who gets hit with the tax if there is one? >> i have always supported that. these are the fastest-rising degrees right now in terms of the number of jobs we're going to have. 74,000 openings for lech tripses. nearly that many for plumbers, for medical tech people, for home care workers. >> brennan: what is the cost of that? >> the: 00, my education plan costs approximately $500 billion. i would pay for it by taking the capital gains rate, which has been a ripoff for average americans, and changing that to the personal income rate. i have shown everything, margaret, how i'm going to pay for it, because i think we have a president that has added up

debt, trillions of dollars, hasn't shown. i want to make college more affordable, double the programs and do this in a smart way instead of paying for rich kids to go to college, which is sadly what my opponents plans do. >> brennan: >> so in you make $400,000 a year or so, your tacks will go up? >> on my plan, yes. >> brennan: so you believe the whistleblower should testify, is that correct? >> i think it would be good to have the whistleblower testify. i don't know that it is necessary to have the whistleblower testify, because we have people like ambassador taylor that have come forward with firsthand knowledge. the wiflt consistent was simply reporting on something he had heard from others. i think what's most important is to keep getting the testimony of people that were actually there on the scene. that ambassador taylor testimony was devastating. it showed that this was not just one phone call, that this had been a plan for a long time for the president to put the interests of america behind his

own personal interests to get dirt on an opponent. it's a pattern. he does it for his business. he does it for his partisan interests. he does it every single day. >> brennan: nor, i know we have the leave it there, but i want to thank you for braving the weather, but also you had to be somewhere for a campaign event. >> well, this is an important day. >> brennan: thank you. we will be right back in a moment. when the engines failed on the plane i was flying, i knew what to do to save my passengers. but when my father sank into depression, i didn't know how to help him. when he ultimately shot himself, he left our family devastated. don't let this happen to you. if you or a loved one is suicidal, call the national suicide prevention lifeline.

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and exactly what to do when they hear a smoke alarm. go to ready.gov/firedrill and learn how to prepare your family for home fires. >> brennan: for more now on the impact of baghdadi's on the war against terror, we are joined by james winnefeld and gentleman, thank you. it was extraordinary to hear the president detail what this looked like. mike, i want to know, is it dangerous to have so much

revealed? >> i'll let sandy answer the operational military questions, but to me, this is a great day. we should be really thankful that baghdadi is gone, and clearly the intelligence community and the u.s. military did an amazing job and the president made exactly the right decision. >> brennan: and the president clinton thanked gina haspel, the c.i.a. director. >> absolutely. i this i well eel learn more in the days ahead about what the intelligence was and how we got it and thank even more people. it bothered me a little bit some of what the president did in providing detail about taking back to the united states pieces of baghdadi's body. it bothered me a little bit hearing the president talk about some of that searian oil being ours. that's what inspires some extremists. you know, the oil comment, margaret, really validate at least it sounds like it validates 40 to 50 years of conspiracy theories about what

american foreign policy is all about, and it's not. a great, great day, but i think the president could have handled the press conference a little bit better. >> brennan: >> margaret, we do these operations all the time. this difference in this one is the prominence of the target. you're always worried about operational security. we rarely have a problem before the raid, because they know what the stakes are. they don't want anyone to get hurt, but after the raid, there's usually a race to the microphone because people want others to know that they had hand in it. >> brennan: the obama administration was harshly criticized for oversharing. >> you want to be very careful with that. there are operational details that we protect, sensitive techniques and that sort of thing. notwithstanding what michael said, from the operational side, i didn't see anything that the president said that was of concern to me. there are a lot of other things he could have said that might have been problematic. >> brennan: i want to play a sound bite from some of what he shared when he addressed the nation from the diplomatic room earlier today. >> we were in the compound for

approximately two hours, and after the mission was accomplished, we took highly sensitive material and information from the raid, much having to do with isis, origin, future plans, things that we very much want. >> brennan: mike, what are you looking for in that trove? >> you're first looking for current plots. right? is there anything they're plotting today against any western target or in iraq or in syria that we need the move to defend against. that's first thing you're looking for. the second thing you're looking for is how is isis thinking about where it is today and where what are its strategic prance and intenses. that's the second thing. i think the third thing you're looking for, particularly with regard to baghdadi, is how involved was he in the day-to-day operations. >> brennan: how involved was he? >> so we don't really know, but i would say this, when we went in to get bin laden, we didn't

think he was involved in day-to-day operations. when we brought all those materials back and went through them, we learned he was heavily involved in day-to-day operations. so you really don't know until you get your hands on that material and look at it. >> brennan: it was notable the vice president indicated there was some direct knowledge of events from baghdadi. that stood out to me. >> and this may answer a question some of your viewers, why don't you just bomb him and kill him if you know where he is. instead we put people at risk to go on the ground, because we like the capture him if we can, but this is a real treasure trove. it will tell you about what michael said but their networks, how they get their finance, how they communicate with each other, all very important from a important, strategic, and operational level. >> brennan: the president said these were u.s. special forces. david martin reported it was red by delta force in particular, twu president thanked a number of different countries. he repeatedly thanked russia. he thanked turkey for alouing the use of its air space.

he said there was some kurdish help as well. did his detail and who he thanked stand out to you? was that sort of standard? >> actually, one of the complexities of these operations is they do involve other countries. for example, if you're going to rescue a hostage, and that hostage has somebody with them who who is from another country, you want to consult with that country. there are overflight rights, there are basing rights, and a number of other countries. i think it was appropriate in the wake of the operation for him to thank some of those people. some of those are characters we don't necessarily like very much, so that was concerning, but it was well done i thought. >> the kurdish thank you stood out to me because thatting ised perhaps that's where the intelligence came from. >> brennan: you were concerned about losing that intelligence that might be getting shared. the president also said in his remarks that he planned or wanted to release some video of those last few moments of baghdadi's life that he repeatedly characterized, called

him a dog, whimpering, trying, he wanted isis' followers to see him like that. would you advise this? >> this is piling on. one part of the president's remarks that did bother me was this continual piling on of humiliation, a little bit of that is appropriate, but you're sending a signal to some of his followers around the world that could cause them to lash out possibly more harshly in the wake. >> you don't want a locker room kind of feel to this. that was the one thing we worked really hard on after the bin laden raid. don't make those statements because it does inspire other people. >> brennan: you said specifically body parts stood out the you in terms of how the president described how they were handled. you mean describe or explain what you mean by that in terms of some of how this resonates. >> i think it's all right to say we used d.n.a. matching to figure out that it was him. but to actually talk about body parts and actually bringing them back with us, right, so that we

have them here with us i think is going too far. >> one of the things, margaret, that this fight is all about is religious freedom. it's about respect for otherling johns, and if you look back to the bin laden raider as much as we detested that man and as much harm as he did to our nation, we treated his body with respect that is due under islam and this was a little bit tough. hey there, california residents on medicare. it may come as a surprise... but medicare doesn't pay for everything. so help bridge the gap with a medigap insurance plan, like an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. medigap plans help pay some of what medicare doesn't, reducing your out-of-pocket costs. there are also zero networks and zero referrals needed. call or click now to connect with unitedhealthcare insurance company. find out about the range of aarp medicare supplement plans and rates available...

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so connect with unitedhealthcare today... ♪... >> brennan: on this historic day, we also want the remember the family of isis victims, james foley, peter cassock and kayla muller and the thousands whose names we don't know. from jones day law firm, this is "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

tonight -- president trump takes a victory lap. u.s. special forces hunt down the leader of isis. the notorious abu bakr al baghdadi. >> he died like a dog. he died like a coward. >> also tonight -- wildfires. it's now a statewide emergency in california as a historic wind storm fans the flames and the danger. >> firefighters have already cleared this scene but the hot spots like this just keep popping up. a gunman opens fire at an off-campus party near a texas college. two are dead. a dozen hurt. plus, high gas prices are driving california drivers mad. who is to blame for their pain at the pump? and the