captioning sponsored by cbs >> brennan: i'm margaret brennan in washington, and this week on "face the nation," there is a new dilemma dividing the country. is it worth risking the health and potentially the lives of americans in order to jump-start or paralyzed economy? with signs that social distancing and mitigation are slowing the rate of new cases, the trump administration issued new guidelines this week. to allow some states to start loosening restrictions on residents. but with a death toll of over 34,000 and rising, the u.s. has reported close to three-quarters of a million case so far.

the back to work argument has its own set of jaw-dropping statistics. 13% of the labor force is out of work. lines at food banks are getting longer. and as for small businesses looking for loan assistance, that money has run out. that struggle is dividing america even further. >> how does this situation get worse? and get worse quickly? if you politicize all that emotion. we cannot go there. >> brennan: last week president trump said he has full authority when it came to reopening the country. >> president trump: the president of the united states calls the shots. >> brennan: three days later, he told governors it is every state for itself. >> president trump: you're going to call your own shots. >> brennan: then on friday, he urged residents in three states, all with democratic governors, to take matters into their own hands. as for governors, they're

desperate for financial aid and a national testing plan from the federal government. will they get the help they need? we'll talk with republican governor charlie baker of massachusetts, plus take a look at the critical role testing plays in reopening the country for business, with the administration's coronavirus coordinator, dr. deborah birx. and we'll talk to scott gottlieb. all that and more is just ahead on "face the nation." ♪ >> brennan: welcome to "face the nation." as america continues to suffer in these troubling times, it is hard to find the right words to begin this broadcast. today we thought we would borrow from one of the country's most prolific writers, wall street journal columnist peggy nunan who wrote this is before a never-before-seen

level of national economic calamity. history doesn't get bigger than this. sobering words, but true. first up this morning is cbs news national correspondent mark strassman, and he is in atlanta. >> good morning, margaret. now comes the tricky part: reversing the great american lockdown. but as job losses mount, so does the pressure to reopen america. >> open our city! we want to work! >> reporter: it is america's coronavirus revolt, protestoring storming the gates of powering. backlash in virginia, in texas, in california. they've lost jobs. they're fed up with stay-at-home orders. they worry america in lockdown peters on a second great depression. 22 million jobs lost in four weeks. >> you can't keep healthy people locked in their houses and watch the economy just go down. >> reporter: michigan is

torn between dollar signs and vital signs. it ranks third nationally in covid-19 deaths, fifth in overall cases, and no state has bled more jobs. almost one in four workers in the last four weeks. by may 1st, governor gretchen whitmer promises to review her stay-at-home restrictions. >> i'm frustrated, too. >> reporter: but lifting those restrictions prematurely could spread the virus. south dakota is one of seven states without a stay-at-home mandate. this now closed pork processing plant became america's hottest spot for the virus, 769-related cases. in this county, cases nearly tripled in one week. more than 100 mayors pleaded with the governor for a stay-home order. >> i'm not going to do that. i don't believe it is appropriate. >> reporter: consider the 43 states with stay-at-home orders.

23have restrictions that extend to may 1st. 20 others will continue into may or indefinitely. one major issue: testing. who is safe to be around? ♪ >> reporter: and nothing will return soon to the way it was, like saturdays commencement at the air force academy, graduates sitting apart, the stadium empty, but they celebrated progress: the event wasn't canceled. america's reopened economy will have winners and many losers, and thousands of small businesses were counting on the government's loan program, and now it has run out of money. margaret? >> brennan: mark, thank you. we want to go now to cbs news senior foreign correspondent, elizabeth palmer, in london. >> reporter: margaret gret, from china to denmark, we're seeing governments around the world starting to ease restrictions as they think

they have the virus under control, but there are other countries, slower to react, that are getting hammered, notably, russia. at midnight in moscow's cathedral, the great bell told to mark orthodox easter. but it was a solemn service. the kremlin's strict lockdown only imposed in early april came too late. the line of ambulances waiting to get patients into the hospital tells a grim story: 10,000 confirmed new cases this weekend alone. by contrast, greeks, who also celebrated orthodox easter from the safety of their living rooms, are giving thanks. swift government action there achieved some of the lowest infection and death rates in europe. iran's outbreak, one of the most severe anywhere, swamped its hospitals. this wek the powerful revolutionary guards claimed they invented a magnetic device to detect

the virus at 100 yards. health officials quickly poured cold water on the idea, but it left iranians weary, worried, and with even less confidence in their government. and finally, a story to warm hearts everywhere: world war ii veteran, captain tom moore, set out to mark his 100path 100th birthday by crossing his garden 100 times. his goal to raise 1,200-dollar for health programs. by the time capitan tom was finished with a military honor guard, he had raised more than $16 million. here in the u.k., we've had our fairly comprehensive lockdown extended until at least the 7th of may, but here and there across europe, governments are taking the

first attempts to reopen businesses, everything from construction sites to hair salons. >> brennan: raymond has been reporting on this story from asia since the first cases in wuhan. he reports now from tokyo. >> reporter: on china's border with russia, this new 600-bed hospital is prepped for a surge of imported cases. 90% of china's infections have been citizens returning home from abroad. many through this now locked down border town. u.s. political pressure on china is also rising. president trump saying he'll freeze funding to the world health organization. >> president trump: we're paying them more than -- more than 10times more than china, and they are very, very china-centric. >> they are reviewing the impact of our work, of any withdrawal of u.s. funding... >> reporter: in terms of a second surge, are you

nervous right now? >> i am nervous. it is like putting out a fire. there will be embers that are glowing or smoking, you want to stamp those out before the fire starts again. >> reporter: with drive-through testing and a decisive government, south korea has been praised as the global gold standard. social distancing at the polls was the normal on wednesday, with temperature checks, hand sanitizer, and plastic gloves all part of the process. the ruling party won an historic majority for flattening the curve. but in the opposite, in japan, where tokyo's business industries have gone quiet. shinzo abe declared the whole state under emergency. japan is now scrambling to expand testing with

drive-through facilities. and contact tracing is a major concern, too. here in the capital, more than 70% of all infections are of unknown origin. >> brennan: thank you. we turn now to dr. deborah birx. dr. birx, good morning to you and thank you for making time for us. >> good morning. >> brennan: here in the u.s., what is the next area you are concerned about? >> doctor: we watch every single metro county in a very granular way because you have to look at it that way. we're a series of small epidemics across the united states. we're still very much focused on boston and across massachusetts, where the epidemics continue to spread across massachusetts, as well as in boston. and we're watching very closely chicago. and then we watch every single outbreak that occurs in different states around the united states, including the most recent

one in ohio. >> brennan: here in washington, there are projections that the virus can peak until june. obviously, this is the heart of the nation's government. what is your projection for what the impact here will be? >> doctor: it is very interesting. we're a series of independent curves. we all know that the new york metro area had the most cases, the most explosive experience with the virus. and then we look to seattle, which has been containing the virus and contact tracing, and having that first nursing home outbreak really helped them put in public health measures and it kept their curve very low. so when the curves are low, it is much more difficult to predict when the curves are going to fully decline. we're learning a lot about -- in explosive epidemics, when you look at new orleans, who went up very high and quickly back down.

and we're trying to learn from each of the areas in the country so we can do the prediction you're asking for. >> brennan: all right. we'll watch for that. policy-wise, doctor, why isn't there a national strategy for both testing and tracing? why not provide those guidelines to governors? >> doctor: so we did do that through the new guidelines. and it clearly shows there are three ways we want to monitor this virus community by community. the first way is really understanding e.r. visits and the symptoms associated with covid-19, and we're tracking and tracing those every day all across the country. the second way is really understanding influenza-like illness, and converting that entire surveillance program to covid-19-like illness, which we can throughout the summer because we don't have the flu. and the third critical leg wth those other two legs is testing. but testing needs to be focused where you start to

see early evidence. because no test is 100% specific and 100% sensitive. so if you test and overtest in areas where there isn't virus, you can end up with false positives and false negatives. >> brennan: i'm sure you know that governors, including the governor of new york, said they need more guidance from the federal government for completing those tests. the vice president said today there are about 150,000 tests being conducted right now in the united states. harvard projects you need 500,000 to 700,000 a day to reopen by mid-may. how long before we get there? >> doctor: so i think, because you're linking national numbers with epidemics that are smaller, each of the epidemics will have a different testing need. that's what we're calculating now. the numbers originally said we only needed 750,000 tests a week, we've long since passed that. the new number coming from harvard is the half

million a day. what we're trying to do is look at this in a very data-driven, granular, scientific methodologys to predict testing that is needed. at the same time working with every laboratory director across the country that have these multiple platforms to really understand and find solutions for them on their issues related to supplies. >> brennan: two weeks ago you said americans still shouldn't go to the pharmacy or grocery store. and you said we shouldn't have dinner parties still. what is the moment we're in? what is safe? >> doctor: again, this has to be looked at as a community by community. i'm trying to really drive americans to a website that i think is quite extraordinary. if you go to the florida public health website on covid-19, they've been able to show their communities' cases and tests, district by district, county by county, zip code by zip code. that's the kind of knowledge and power we need to put into the hands of the american people, so

they can see where the virus is, where the cases are, and make decisions. one thing i've been so impressed with is, if you give americans knowledge, they will translate that into protective language and protect themselves and their community. we have to get them information in a much more granular way than a national way or even a state way. it needs to be down to the communities, so that the communities can see what happens in their communities and make decisions with the local and health officials and the state officials, what can be opened and what needs to remain closed. >> brennan: doctor, scientifically speaking, could this outbreak just be the result of a lab accident? >> doctor: you know, any time we have a new virus, it is important to figure out its origins. and i think we're still a long way from forgetting forgivt out. it took us decades to figure out h.i.v. and ebola. it will take us a long

time to get the scientific evidence of where this virus originated. we know it originated in china. we just don't know specifically how and where. >> brennan: it sounds like you're saying it could have been? >> doctor: i don't have evidence that was a laboratory accident. i also don't know precisely where it originated. so until we have the concrete evidence, which we struggled with with other pandemic and other zooanotic cientes, because theevents.right now the general consensus is animals to human. >> brennan: does the fact that south korea is starting to see a bit of a resurgence mean that that could happen in the u.s., that if you get this virus, you are not immune? >> doctor: you know, that's a different question. that's why these studies that are going on with plasma and giving plasma

to sick patients to see if the antibody confers protect immunity to individuals who are sick, as well as doing studies with vaccines, and looking and seeing if the antibodies produced are affective, these are questions we still have scientifically. i will tell you in most infectious diseases, except for h.i.v., we know when you get sick and you recover, and you develop antibodies, that that antibody often confers immunity. we just don't know if it is immunity for months, or for six years. >> brennan: dr. birx, thank you so much. >> doctor: thank you. >> brennan: we'll be right back with massachusetts governor charlie baker. stay with us.

♪we all need somebody to lean on♪ ♪ and other money managers don't understand why. because our way works great for us! but not for your clients. that's why we're a fiduciary, obligated to put clients first. so, what do you provide? cookie cutter portfolios? nope. we tailor portfolios to our client's needs. but you do sell investments that earn you high commissions, right? we don't have those. so, what's in it for you? our fees are structured so we do better when you do better. at fisher investments we're clearly different. >> brennan: we go now to boston and massachusetts republican governor charlie baker. good morning. >> governor: good morning. how are you? >> brennan: very well. as we just heard from dr. birx, she is very

kilometers per hour about concerned about what is happening in your state. i want to ask you about how states are working with the federal government. because the president said he has the ultimate authority to make the decision to reopen. that same day you and a number of governors throughout the northeast announced you're going to come up with your own regional strategy, and the white house has said, okay, you're in charge of it. do these mixed messages impact your planning? do you, as a governor, need more federal guidance? >> governor: i guess the first thing i would say is part of the region we chose to join that collaborative is $i there is a tremendous amount of cross-border activity that takes place among the northeast. we have people who work in these states, and people who live in those states and work in massachusetts. we have tons of companies the do business back and forth. i think us thinking about this regionally is an important element because i don't want massachusetts

to do something that makes life incredibly complicated for new york or new jersey o or new hampshire or new york. and i don't want them to do something that creates problems in massachusetts. i think generally the biggest thing we're interested in guidance from the feds on is a the lof the stuff that comes out of the c.d.c. and f.d.a., which we take into our own guidance and advisories. i know that is true for many other states. i also think that the other issue that is important from the feds is they approve and drive a lot of the policy, and what ultimately becomes sort of the facts on the ground with respect to testing and treatments. and in a state where there are a number of companies that are deeply invested in either the development of treatments or vaccines or have hospitals or are involved in clinical trials associated with

treatments for covid-19, the federal government's role with respect to treatments is enormously important. on the testing piece -- >> brennan: do you need a national strategy? >> governor: pardon me? >> brennan: do you need that national strategy for testing? >> governor: i think governors appreciate the fact that the feds have acknowledged that the surge is in dist state different states at different times. in massachusetts, we're right in the middle of the surge. i certainly believe that the more guidance, and especially the ability to put the foot on the accelerator with respect to advances in testing, everything associated with testing has to be approved by the c.d.c. and the f.d.a., as it should be. the states shouldn't be making their own decisions on that stuff. >> brennan: one decision you have made in your state is to launch contact tracing. you're getting that program up and running. you're doing it with phone calls. you're about to hire about a thousand people to do it.

explain what the idea is. >> governor: so there is an organization in massachusetts called "partners in health," which has been doing work in developing countries around public health for years. and they are, in my opinion, kind of the gold standard around contact tracing generally, and they've been doing it in places where ebola and zika have become horrible epidemics and outbreaks. they started talking to us about creating a contract tracing program in massachusetts. first of all, it is not theatrical. they have done it before, they know how to do it. secondly, i absolutely believe that in massachusetts, anyway, for us to get back on our feet and start thinking about reopening, we have got to have better knowledge and better understanding and support for people who are dealing with this virus and those that come in close contact with them. this is going to be a big initiative. >> brennan: why not do it the old-fashioned way of phone calls -- could it happen more quickly if you did it digitally?

>> governor: i certainly think there will be a role for a variety of digital interventions to support this. i don't think it is either/or. just based on the stuff we're doing already, there is tremendous value in having conversations with people who are covid-19 positive. not just in terms of who they've been in contact with, but also what it is going to take to help them stay isolated and, you know, manage their way through the virus themselves. and when we have a thousand people working this -- and there may be more than that over time -- the goal here is to push back on the virus, the same way they did in south korea, to contain it, understand where it is, and control it. and i think it is going to be critical for every state that wants to get open and back to something like a new normal, to put some kind of mechanism like this in place. >> brennan: right now there is this struggle in congress and with the white house about how much money to give to states, and if it should be included in this upcoming

package. does massachusetts need more federal funding? i know governors and a bipartisan group said they need about $500 billion in unrestricted aid. >> governor: well, the big issue for states is not dissim labor to the ondissimilar for the oneyou seer municipalities, if you shut down the economy, you shut down the revenue stream, but it does not mean you're not in the business of providing health care, you're not going to get out of the public safety business or the environmental protection business or the transportation business, but i think every state in the country is struggling with what the hit to their economy has done to their balance sheet and to their budgets. if the feds are interested in sort of reopening the economy, and they've certainly talked about the importance of stimulating the economy going forward, for states to be able to support that initiative, obviously it is important for the feds to support

our effort to fund the stuff we do. if we're laying off tens of thousands of people at exactly the time they want to reopen the economy, we're going to be swimming against the current they're trying to create. >> brennan: exactly. we'll be watching for that, governor. thank you for your time. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. >> governor: thank you.

["under pressure" by queen ♪ pressure pushing down on me ♪ pressing down on you, no man ask for ♪ ♪ it's the terror of knowing what the world is about. ♪ ♪ watching some good friends screaming 'let me out' ♪ ♪ this is ourselves ♪ under pressure ♪

♪ >> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." joining us now to help us educate our viewers about new covid-19 developments is former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. he joins us from his home in connecticut. good morning to you. >> doctor: good morning. >> brennan: we heard from dr. birx, and then we heard from the governor of massachusetts. i know you've also been advising him. there is sa lot o is a lot of cn about boston and chicago. what are the other areas of the country you still see as very worrisome? >> doctor: well, i think when you look at the southeast and the sunbelt, you still need to be worried. you haven't seen cases

spike in texas or georgia. but there are parts of the states that are hotspots. parts of the panhandle in florida, you see cases growing very quickly. so the parts of the country that entered later i think are still going to come out of it later and you have to be concerned about that. and any part of the country is vulnerable. even rural parts of the country, such as south dakota. once you have people tightly packed indoors, it can spread very quickly. so i don't think anyone is out of the woods right now. >> brennan: but you are seeing some governors started talking about opening up things like beaches in florida, in parts of that state. you heard dr. birx say there is a national strategy for testing. do you think that strategy is adequate? >> doctor: well, look, i think it is a loose strategy. i think states are largely on their own, trying to get testing resources into their states. one of the things they should be doing is trying

to work together, at least on a regional basis, to move around samples to take advantage of testing that exists in a location in the country. where we need a national strategy first and foremost is on the testing supplies. like the swabs and the reagents, and we've been talking about this for weeks now, they are all in short supplies. we don't have shortages, but whatever is getting produced is getting consumed. if you have the government more engaged in trying to manage the supply chains, getting it to the states that need it most, and looking fortunate way for ways o increase manufacturing. a lot of states have testing capacity within the states. it is the components to run those tests that they're having trouble getting their hands on. >> brennan: and dr. birx said there is an attempt to try to help the states. what's missing there? what kind of coordination does there need to be between states and labs and the federal

government? >> doctor: well, i think the federal government has more capacity to try to tug on that global supply chain, get more supplies into the country. and look at how we ramp up manufacturing and these components. they're low-commodity components, they could be 3d printed. there may be ways to increase manufacturing in the united states, something we should be looking at trying to do, iif we can bring on manufacturing. right now the swing capacity in the market, if we're going to see dramatic increases in may and june, it will be from new systems coming into the market. the point of care diagnostics, like the abbott machine we've seen, and those companies will increase their supply of the machines they have available. there are a couple of other companies awaiting approval from the f.d.a. to come into the market. that will be the inflection point, if we're likely to see one, at least in may and june. >> brennan: you said employers should look at

on-site testing before their employees come back to work. what corporation is going to spend the money unless they're required to do so? >> doctor: i don't think it should be a mandate because there are a lot of corporations where there would be difficulty. i think the government should help subsidize this, so we can make sure is available to also shop floors and factories, or helping small businesses come together and put machines in local communities. because they're going to have hard time doing this. you'll see a lot of office-space jobs bring testing onsite. i'm talking to a lot of companies that are already working on this right now. and they'll provide those facilities to companies. what i worry about it is not going to be available to all employees. and employees who are most as risk because they can't naturally social distance are the ones that won't have access to these fass. facilities. >> brennan: does that

mean expanding the health care requirements, the paid-leave policies that expire under current legislation in december? brrm>> doctor: yeah, look. i have a letter i'm working on with a bunch of public health officials, making recommendations to congress to look at ways to provide paid sick leave for people with diagnosed covid-19, so they can self-isolate at home. you don't want getting a positive covid-19 test result to be punitive. you don't want to tell them they have to self-isolate at home, and, oh, by the way, they're going to lose wages. so you don't want to make it a financial inducement, you also don't want to make it punitive. and we have to find that happy medium. maybe providing a stipen, the same as we do with jury duty.

>> brennan: very quickly, how close are we to some kind of treatment or vaccine, and is china going to beat us there? >> doctor: there is a risk that china may get to a vaccine first. i don't think their vaccine is very good, but they may get it to the market before we do. i think that is a concern. in terms of a vaccine in the united states, we may have hundreds of thousands of doses available in the fall for testing, and if there is a big outbreak in an american city, i think it would be made available in the city, and so we would have it available in the setting of an outbreak. we may have one or more treatments by the fall. i don't think anyone is going to be a homerun, but we may have something that can help. >> brennan: dr. gottlieb, thank you very much for your insight. >> doctor: thanks a lot. >> brennan: we'll be right back to look at the financial fallout from the coronavirus crisis.

>> brennan: we turn now to the economy and the continued financial fallout from the coronavirus. suzanne clark is the president of the chamber

of commerce based here in washington. good morning. >> good morning. >> brennan: the volume, the amount of demand that small businesses had for emergency aid was so great that that $350 billion ran out on thursday. we know from congressional leaders and the treasury they expect some kind of deal to replenish those funds. is $250 billion enough? >> well, we know that the small businesses out there are really hurting, and every hour and day that goes by without this assistance is really hurting them. so we know it is a really good start. and it is part of why we're working on a path forward on how you reopen businesses so that they can get back in some kind of gradual, phased-in way to work. >> brennan: a senior staff official i spoke to this week said even the $250 billion, on top of the $350 billion may not be enough because small

businesses are in such acute pain and they make up such an important part of the u.s. economy. what's the timeline? >> i think the $250 billion is just another really important step of getting aid to the frontlines as quick as possible. i do think it will get done this week. what we believe is these businesses, and getting paychecks in the hands of americans at some point requires getting back to work, of course safely and sustainably, when the public health officials say it is okay to do so. >> brennan: when it comes to your members, how many of them had a hard time getting access to the money? cbs has found that many of the smaller businesses didn't get their applications through. >> we know that there was great demand because we know that there is great pain out there. we know that the banks -- this didn't make different banking regulations go away, so they had to deal with the people they do

business with, and they had to deal with anti-money laundering rules. but we now as other non-traditional lendering get into this space, they are ready to give the money and make it easier for small businesses to access as soon as that fund is replenished. >> brennan: do you expect it to function better this time? >> yes. >> brennan: the chamber released a poll showing at the beginning of april that one out of 10 members say they are less than one month away from permanently going out of business. what are your projections on bankruptcies and closures? >> it is really terrifying, these numbers. you had something like 50% of small businesses say that they were eight weeks away from closing forever. that's why these bridge programs are so important and why it is so important we start to think about reopening in a gradual, phased-in way. there were regions that were hit harder than

others. we know that certain sectors will have a harder time coming back, but there are other sectors that may be other to open. so the faster we can get people back to work -- we know what a job means to a community and a family, and the faster we can get paychecks into their hands and get these businesses to open, the sharper and faster the recovery will be. >> brennan: what is the cost to a small business owner in trying to provide, and what is the legal policy for them to provide protective equipment to their employees. are you asking them to go after their governors and mayors, or is that the business' job? >> the chamber is about gathering all of the questions and concerns that small, medium, and large businesses across the country have, and helping to develop a framework for policy-makers and businesses, so when we get the yellow light to reopen, they're ready. and you're right, that it is part tracing and testing, and also part which equipment and how do you train, and then there

are the best practices and guidelines. are we asking employers to check whether you've been tested? are we creating some kind of immune registry? there are a lot of regulatory and legal questions that small business owners and big business owners want to know. they want to know if they take a risk in an imperfect information situation that they're going to be protected. >> brennan: and who is answering those questions? is that the federal government? >> it is really a coordinated approach. you have federal guidelines that have to be implemented on a state and local level because the conditions vary so much by zip code. >> brennan: all right. well, very quickly, before we leave, can i get you to clarify: do you expect the requirement to provide health care coverage, paid leave, to happen? because it currently expires in december. >> i don't know what the congress will end up deciding. what i expect is that companies and communities are going to do the right thing by their people. we don't want sick people in the workplace.

we can't get back to work until we get back to health. i expect that the government and business will work together to figure that out. >> brennan: a lot of big questions still unanswered. thank you very much, suzanne clark. >> thank you. >> brennan: we'll be back in a moment. z3urmz zi0z y3urmy yi0y

>> brennan: of the population's most vulnerable to a covid-19 outbreak, the world's 26 million refugees are at the top of that risk. they often live in close quarters. an outbreak of the virus could be devastating. the country of jordan is home to at least 3.5 million refugees and the largest syrian refugee camps. we're joined now by the king of jordan, king abdullah ii. good morning, your magesty. >> good morning, margaret. >> brennan: how do you plan to limit the spread? >> well, we acted quite early on, and that helped us flatten the curve quite well. and we created, obviously,

some top measures in lokdown and quarantines over the whole country, although we're in the process of opening that up slightly. the challenge with the refugees, ther they are about 20% of our population, and the majority are not in refugee camps, so that is a challenge that we sort of treat every person inside of our borders, whether you're a jordian citizen our a refugee. testing has helped us figure out what our challenges are, but definitely a country with 20% of its population with refugees is a major challenge as we go into the future. >> brennan: given that not all refugees give in camps, what kind of sense do you have as to the degree with which the virus has penetrated that community? >> we do random and targeted testing throughout the whole country. refugee camps, because obviously people are much closer together in living conditions, was something we looked at earlier on. so there is a lot of

testing. the lockdown on the quarantine has helped jordan sort of flatten the curve quite quickly. the cases that we've had over the past week are under 10 people every day. we average 15, give or take, on a weekly basis. so it seems that we've got things under control, or within the capabilities of our medical and health establishments. but, again, there is always that question out there: is there a gap in society that you don't know of? so, again, testing at a massive scale is how we're relying on and hopefully getting the right figures. >> brennan: this pandemic is global and the u.n. has called for a global response, but europe is struggling, the united states is, and the u.s. president just cut funding or froze it, at least, to the world health organization. who do you see actually leading a global response? >> well, i think this is a challenge that took

everybody by surprise, by the impact and the magnitude of this pandemic. and i think the question is, nobody is going to get a perfect score on this issue. different countries have different ways of handling it, and what their country faces. the question i think you're alluding to is: where are we four months, six months, a year from now? do we understand this is a new world that we're living in? this is a disease that -- or a virus that crosses borders, it is an invisible enemy. it will target developed countries, undeveloped countries, whatever your religion, creed, color or race, unless we work together. unless we work together, we will not be able to overcome this in the way we need to. so our enemies of yesterday, or those that were not friendly countries, whether we like it or not nee need to work

together. it is not just covid-19 that we're worried about, but what does it bring for the world in 2021, '22, '23, and are we going to be prepared for the next wave of this? >> brennan: the i.m.f. said if countries don't handle this right, that the virus could destabilize countries. are you worried that this could be exploited by extremist groups? >> i think all over the world extremist groups and the usual suspects will obviously try to take advantage of that. we, as a country, that have come out with the massive refugees that we have, and being a poor country on a very strict program with the i.m.f., in trying to get the economy back and running, obviously this is a major concern. having said that, we have seen areas of our society where actually we can be

supporters for the region, but it is, i think, a challenge that all countries are facing, whether or not we get the economics right. so here is a risk. obviously, we are now slowly gradually opening up, understanding that it could really move us back a couple of paces, but with this type of challenge, we've got to be very light on our feet. mistakes that are made yesterday, as long as we get them right today and keep our institutions and our people flexible enough to be able to take on the challenges we may not have foreseen tomorrow. >> brennan: have you spoken to the president of china or asked him for help? >> no, i have not. i have been in touch with leaders around the world. at the beginning, a leader in the united emirates got in touch with me. jack marr of alibaba gave

us test kits that almost tripled our capability. and many countries have helped us, as we have, in turn, been helping them. this is the flavor i hope they give. are we smart enough as a race and a people to understand we've got to get this right? and do we now serve humanity in the right way, to be able to make sure that everybody is looked after? because those that have not are going to suffer as much as those that have. and if we don't reach out to those who are in need, even though we may have limited resources, it is, at this stage, doing what is right to help all of us because we're all in the same boat. >> brennan: you're magesty, thank you for your time. >> thank you very much, margaret. >> brennan: we'll be >> brennan: we'll be right back.

>> brennan: finally today, with the nation's governors becoming familiar faces to all of us, regardless of where we live, thanks to technology, we asked 60 minutes correspondent john dickerson for his thoughts on the crucial role they're playing in this crisis. >> reporter: while the medical laboratories search for a coronavirus cure, the laboratories of democracy are also hard at work. that's the phrase supreme court justice phyllis grandis used to describe the 50 american states.

the political scientists are the governors, facing the toughest issues of the virus. from overburdened hospitals to equipment shortages -- >> our first responders, our health care workers, everybody deserves to have that gear. we're killing ourselves trying to make it happen. >> reporter: to exploding unemployment. >> the state of our character has never been stronger. >> reporter: in their response, they have reminded us what leadership looks like, where its limits are, and how generously citizens respond to grace under pressure. in a crisis where there is no end date, people crave specificity and plain speaking, even if it is tough medicine. >> what's the penalty for a young person going out to a restaurant or hanging in a social get-together, the penalty is you might kill your grandparent. >> reporter: voters in a state may know their governor, usually the rest of the country only tunes

in when a disaster hits. then the governor is the one in a windbreaker, standing behind the president surveying the damage. nw governors are center stage because the disaster in one state is the disaster facing every state. >> all of these patients are here. >> reporter: when governors remind their constituents, they also remind the country, they we are all connected. >> we have to pull together, and ultimately, it is going to be the small acts, what seems small, of each and every american that truly is going to make all of the difference in the world. [applause] >> reporter: in an age of finger pointing, blame-shifting, it can be bracing to simply hear a leader take responsibility. >> if you are upset by what we have done, be upset at me, my judgment is do whatever is necessary to contain this virus. and then we will manage the consequences afterwards.

the old expression: the buck stops on my desk -- the buck stops on my desk. your local mayor did not close your restaurants, gyms, or schools. i did. >> reporter: voters notice when leaders step up. polls show that the governors in the states of california, new york, ohio and arkansas, have approval ratings in the 70s and 80s. state laboratories also showed the limits of what works. in michigan, governor whitmer has rallied the public, but recent stay-at-home orders caused a backlash, which in its responsible form reminded us that leadering ca leaders cay do so much through coercion. leaders identify a problem and make a plan and follow through. three sets of governors formed groups to think through the next phase in covid-19 response that may boost economic output, relying on evidence, consultation and persuasion.

there is much work ahead. because even when the medical laboratories find a solution, these laboratories will have to keep working. >> brennan: and we'll keep working, too. that's it for us today. thank you for watching. until next week for "face the nation," i'm margaret brendon. ♪ captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

(upbeat music) - [announcer] game time. with boomer esiason. this week's guest is the new york giants' all-time leader in rushing and all-purpose yards, three-time pro bowler and best-selling author tiki barber. presented by geico. - at the university of virginia this high school valedictorian had a 4.0 grade point average and called himself a nerd. that's his words, not my words. a business major who just happened to play football, well he just happened to break every rushing record for the cavaliers, and when he played for the new york giants from 1997 to 2006, every team record