captioning sponsored by cbs >> brennan: i'm margaret brennan in washington, and this week on "face the nation," the tension between sa and saving american lives intensifies. and president trump's wishful thinking is stopped short by reality. the numbers continue to stagger, close to 54,000 dead in the u.s. from covid-19, with over 940,000 confirmed cases. that's more than four times the number of cases than any other country in the world. the economy continues its freefall. congress passed another half trillion dollar package of aid for small businesses. health care providers and virus testing. but it is likely to run out quickly. on top of that, the

nation's governors say they need another $500 billion of help for their state, but senate republicans are resisting. one in six in the american workforce are now unemployed. plus president trump's speculation backfired badly this week as administration's efforts to soften warnings about a second wave of coronavirus in the fall were shot down by their own medical doctors. >> i think by memorial day weekend, we will largely have this coronavirus epidemic behind us. >> president trump: it is also possible it doesn't come back at all. >> doctor: there will be coronavirus in the fall. >> brennan: the f.d.a. issued a safety warning. a top federal vaccine expert was reassigned after voicing concerns about its use, too. he filed a whistle-blower complaint. then came mr. trump's shocking suggestion that

doctors should try injecting disinfectant into humans to affect the virus, and he later said he was being sarcastic. >> president trump: i see the disinfectant knocks it out in a minute. is there a way we can do something like that? by injection inside or almost a cleaning? >> brennan: across america it is sinking in, there is no end in sight, and if there is, normal is going to look very different. >> somebody said to me, i can't do this anymore. i get it. i really do fundamentally get it. this has been a god-awful situation on many, many levels. >> you have to deal with it. and it's hard. but on the other hand, it makes us who we are, right? you get shaped by your experiences. 56 days of all of this inconvenience. think of it this way: what you're doing is actually

saving lives. >> brennan: we'll talk with maryland republican governor larry hogan, and san francisco mayor london breed, and scott gottlieb. and we'll tak talk with brian moynihan. it's all just ahead on "face the nation." ♪ >> brennan: welcome to "face the nation." how can america safely reopen before there is a proven cure for covid-19?first up this morns mark strasman in atlanta. >> georgia's reopening a couple of days ago got most of the spotlight and most of the criticisms.

but it is only one state. like the virus, the push to get back to business is contagious across the country. what contagion? covid america is reopening. weekend warriors in wisconsin, coloring away the gray in atlanta, sipping margaritas in dallas. >> we have to start looking at the hard facts. and the hard facts support the fact we need to open up the economy. >> reporter: one hard fact: the american economy's covid fever runs dangerously high. square that against another hard fact: some epidemiological models predict by late may, the covid death total to date could double, 100,000 americans, and no one wants people dying for a spring break. >> we're finally relieved, but with everybody out, will they becomear?

when careless, things start happening again. >> reporter: every governor will decide when and how much to ease restrictions. in five states, some businesses have already partially reopened on site to costumers. over the next 10days, at least five more will phase in reopenings, with a warning about risks. >> social distancing works, and it absolutely must continue if we're going to reopen our economy safely. >> reporter: discipline is key to stopping talk of a second-rate depression. do costumers think it is safe? do you? >> we've got a cleaning log on the door, to make sure people know we're cleaning door handling and surfaces. >> reporter: but white house guidelines expect more. to reopen safely, states must first show a two-week downward trend of new documented cases. by our read of the data, no state can do that. georgia's movie theaters are allowed to reopen tomorrow, but like many business people here, the

owner of this one thinks it is too soon. he told us he is taking his guidance from health experts, not politicians. margaret? >> brennan: mark, thank you. there was a starting warning from the world health organization saturday, there is not evidence that a person who has recovered from the coronavirus is immune from a second infection. several countries in the rest of the world are wrestling with how and when to reopen. we turn to senior correspondent elizabeth palmer in london. >> reporter: the w.h.o. has told the governments not to issue so-called immunity passports to people who have recovered because nobody knows yet how long they'll be protected from covid. as life starts to return to normal, like in spain, where children under 14 were allowed out for the first time in six weeks, the danger is that immunity passports would give people false confidence, when it might

turn out they could catch covid again. but the pressure to ease up is huge in countries past the peak, like australia. so this week sydney's beaches reopened, supposedly only for exercise. >> we will have to close the bay. >> reporter: and then closed again when people just reverted to pre-covid fun in the sun. social distancing will be part of the new normal, and so might gadgets, like the thermal helmet cameras the police in dubai are using to detect high temperatures. and, of course, there are masks. but south africa's president had a little trouble putting his on. but, in fact, his government has been hugely successful containing the virus, thanks to a strict lockdown and a big network of public health nurses. some countries, though, are at the other end of the deadly covid curve, notably ecuador.

bodies lay in the streets in the largest city, and cemeteries are full. from oxford university there was hopeful news on a covid vaccine. human trials began on thursday. and the researchers say if all goes well, they're aiming to have a million doses ready this fall. meanwhile, the holiest site in the islamic world, the caba as mecca, would normally be packed full. instead, just a scattering of employees were allowed in, as millions of muslims around the world began ramadan isolated and under lockdown. here in the u.k., we're hoping that tomorrow we may get some information about how we get beyond our lockdown when prime minister boris johnson returns to work three weeks after he was admited tadmitted to hospital with coronavirus. >> brennan: we go now to annapolis and the governor, la larry hogan.

they that their highest number of deaths in just a single day. i'm sorry to hear that, governor. good morning. >> glrng. thangood morning, thankyou. >> brennan: this week the president contradicted his three medical advisers when they said the virus may come back in the fall, overlapped with flu season and be even more difficult. and we had the administration remove a top scientist who had been working on vaccines because of what he claims is retaliation for warnings about hydroxychloroquine. and then the president suggested potentially ingesting disinfectant, an idea to try to kill the virus. when you hear thikind of misinformation, how dangerous do you think it is, particularly when it comes from the white house? >> well, i think it is always critically important to -- for a leader to put out the facts and to be as open and honest an transparent

as possible. that's what i tried to do as the governor of my state, particularly in the middle of this crisis. i think it is critical that the president of the united states, when people are really scared and in the middle of this worldwide pandemic, that in these press conferences that we really get the facts out there. unfortunately, some of the messaging has not been great. i mean, the mixed messaging -- i've raised concerns multiple times about conflicting messages. we had hundreds of calls in our hotline here in maryland about people asking about injecting or ingesting these disinfectants, which is hard to imagine that people thought that that was serious. but people actually were thinking about this. was this something you could do to protect yourself? look, i've been trying to do my very best from the beginning of this crisis. we pulled together a coronavirus response team made up of the smartest epidemiologists and public

health doctors in the world to advice us every step of the way, and we've been trying to base all of our decisions on that information and the facts, and to try to get those facts out to the public so they know exactly what is going on. >> brennan: as you said, your state had to warn residents not to ingest disinfectants. should the president stop these briefings? >> governor: well, i think having briefings to inform the public of what is going on is important. and i think his coronavirus team has really been doing a good job. and there are some really smart folks on there that are providing valuable information. i would hate to see that stop. i think you saw a different briefing yesterday, where the president didn't take questions. we didn't have a two-hour long press conference that went off into different topics. perhaps that is indicating a different strategy, and i think maybe some of his advisers are suggesting

that maybe a different communication policy might be more helpful. >> brennan: i want to ask you about this region of the country. dr. birx said that the d.c. metro area is still having a problem with infections. why? what is trivin driving this? >> governor: well, so we took some of the earliest and most aggressive actions in america. the very first case that we had here, i declared a state of emergency. we were the first to close the schools. we were one of the first in america to close bars and restaurants, one of the first to close non-essential businesses. so the whole talk we've been hearing about for more than a month now is about trying to flatten and lengthen that curve. so you don't have the big spikes. that's exactly what we've been really successful in doing here in this region. that's why we're about a couple of weeks behind places like new york and new orleans and other

places. we have dramatically flattened and lengthened that curve and lowered the numbers, but, unfortunately, that means we're also a little bit behind, and now those numbers are coming up. we can't stop the virus, but we've, at least up until now, stopped the overflow of our health care system, the overburdening of the i.c.u. beds and ventilators and things like that. our hospitalizations and i.c.u. beds are start ten to flatten, but our deaths and infections are, unfortunately, are going up. >> brennan: you said the number one problem now is testing. your wife placed a call to south korea and had them send kits. governor cuomo said he talked to the president about it this week, and on a global supply chain he has asked for federal help. is that what you think the federal government should be doing with testing, the supply chain?

>> governor: so i'm the chairman of the national governors association, and governor cuomo is my vice chairman. we've been focusing on a number of things we've been pushing at the federal level, testing being one of the most important. the president said over and over -- yes, we should have more assistance from the federal government on testing. i think we finally have driven that message home. just yesterday we had another call with the vice president and his team, and they've made some progress on making some more labs available on trying to ramp up production of tests here in america. for quite a while the president has been saying over and over again, testing is a local thing. governors should get their own tests. we spent about a month, with my wife, getting thousands of tests from south korea. i'm not sure it should have been that difficult. >> brennan: new jersey's governor said today that his state is going to have to gut the living daylights out of educators and first respon responders if

congress don't provide a $500 billion of what you say you need? why not have strings attached? why do you need flexibility? >> governor: the governors have been pushing for this. we pushed to try to get it in the third stimulus package and the $3.5 billion package. nearly every governor in america supports it, both republicans and democrats. we've had numerous conversations, with the vice president and pred, president, and muchin. the vice president has helped. secretary ma mnuchin. they hope to get it through with the help of the administration. because we're on the front lines. we can't provide services to the people in our

states and help us get out of this economic problem without that assistance. >> brennan: understood, governor. thank you. we'll be back to talk about the economy with entrepreneur barry dillard. stay with us. steven mnuchin consider protected lifetime income from an annuity as part of your retirement plan. this can help cover your essential monthly expenses. learn more at protectedincome.org ["under pressure" by queen ♪ pressure pushing down on me ♪ pressing down on you, no man ask for ♪ ♪ it's the terror of knowing what the world is about. ♪ ♪ watching some good friends screaming 'let me out' ♪ ♪ this is ourselves

♪ under pressure ♪ >> brennan: we're back with barry dillard, the chairman of i.b.c., the largest online travel company, and he invests in a well-known firms you know of, match.com, and tinder. i want to ask you, mr. dillard, about your view of the overall economy. the white house says the jobless rate is likely close to 16%. but then they say at the same time, the economy is about to bounce back as soon as this summer. what's the reality you see? >> there is no chance. i mean, certainly this summer. i think the summer is kind of going to be a petrie dish of all sorts of things. petrie is probably a terrible word to use right now. there will be all sorts of experimenting going on, experimenting with what

does social distancing mean, when there is no real distancing, certainly in the cities. it will be a period of where it will be a big mess. and by september, probably, i believe, you'll see things -- some things -- economically return. i think people will be going back to work. in -- certainly by labor day. and i think that this -- anyone who thinks that this economy is going to bounce, you'd have to have the idea of a rubber ball not in existence to think it is going to bounce high. it can't. the damage is being done and it is catastrophic. >> brennan: catastrophic, what do you think that means? are you talking about widespread bankruptcies? do you have a handle on how much -- >> sorry. you have to have widespread bankruptcies because have you no revenue, essentially, for an enormous number of businesses. i think that established businesses -- expedia,

which had basically a $10 billion cost base, went from a day when it would have $250 million in sales to basically zero. what expedia did and many other companies, we tapped the private markets, for close to $4 billion, which can get us through, we think, almost any worst-case scenario. of course you're going to have a massive amount of businesses that can't return, businesses that go bankrupt. it is inevitable. and hopefully the government will, so to speak, pick up the tab because this is an expedential crisis. it ought to be sloppy to get that money out to everybody who needs it. >> brennan: you have heard from travel companies, you've heard from united airlines talk about having flight attendants wear masks and

having people sit every other seat, these experiments, which is crazy -- >> the idea that you can take the middle seat out of an airplane and have any kind of, quote, "social distancing," work, it can't. social distancing works when it is complete. there are some things you can do when you're not in tight urban areas or in tight capsules, like a plane. that ensure some more safety. what i would like to know, do masks work, giving it or getting it. because if masks work, then that is at least something. but the idea you can make these small areas or theaters or whatever, or restaurants, tables six feet apart? what about coming in and going out. what about the waiters wh yi tht makes any sense. but, you know, you can't

believe that the concept of trying -- cleaning places better, yes, that would be good anyways. but sore sob social distancing n these kinds of arenas is a myth. >> brennan: who needs to tell you that? do you need to hear it from the federal government? do you think consumers won't get on the planes until the federal government says you have to wear a mask? >> absolutely. we're going to have to go through a new kind of -- let's call it risk calculation. that is going to be based upon levels of what we believe is safe and not safe. and we're going to have to be told. unfortunately, we have a witch doctor as a president and he ain't going to tell us. and the science part of it, i think that has to be translated into more practical solutions. so somebody is going to have to say, yes, you must

wear masks, period. or, no, take your chances, but the chances are pretty good. there will be a teething period where we'll kind of get used to this. i think the next couple of months, as people who aren't going to do it anyway -- because they ain't going to stay in their houses or apartments, are going to get out there, and we'll learn some stuff. i think with the mistakes that will be made, and hopefully some authorities telling us what we can and can't do, we'll, by labor day, we'll be out of it. yes, i do not believe that life has ever changed. at some point i think this is going to be over, and we humans are going to get back to the life that we had made for ourselves. now, maybe we say in some

cases it went too fast, environmental issues, etc., but basically we're all going to get together again. so...whatever. >> brennan: well, thank you for your analysis, you're reality check. you see a lot of consumer businesses, so it is an important counterpoint to what we are being told right now. mr. dillard, thank you very much for your time. we will be right back. untry. stick with it. ♪

and what we do here is very important to people's lives every single day. with the current situation that we're in, it's not going to stop us. we continue to deliver medical supplies and equipment to our hospitals. we'll continue to deliver essential goods to our stores. and it takes great teamwork. and i feel very fortunate to have that here. strength. what we deliver by delivering. step by step, we're going toto figure this out. we're gonna find a way through this.wo'rrk, our nurses, our techs, all the docs. it's about staggering when people get sick so that the hospitals can cope. we're gonna go through an awful lot of these. all across puget sound, people have been stepping up and donating personal protective equipment.

we stay at work. for you. you stay at home for us. just know we're all with you. thank you, thank you so much. thank you doctors & nurses. >> brennan: recently dr. anthone would like brad pitt to play him on "saturday night live". and that's what happened. >> tonight i would like to explain what the president was trying to say. >> it is like the miracle, it will disappear. >> a miracle would be great. who doesn't love miracles. but miracles shouldn't be

plan "a." >> president trump: anybody that needs a test gets a test. >> when he said everyone can get a test, what he meant was...almost no one. >> president trump: i see the disinfectant knocks it out in a minute, one minute. and is there a way we can do something like that? by injection. supposing we hit the body with a tremendous -- whether it is ultra violet or just very powerful light. >> i know i shouldn't be touching my face. >> to the real dr. fauci, thank you for your calm and your clarity in this unnerving time. >> brennan: and we'll be right back.

♪

>> brennan: we'll be right back with a look at lifelines for small businesses, with the bank of america c.e.o. brian moynihan, and san francisco mayor london breed, and former f.d.a. commissioner scott gottlieb. stay with us. mrs. walker. michael vasquez! come over here.

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>> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." we now go to the ahead of america's second largest bank, bank of america's c.e.o. brian moynihan. good to have you with us again. >> it's good to be here, margaret. >> brennan: may 1st is friday, that means a lot of bills is coming due for americans, including. >> marisa: , including mortgage payments. last time you said costumers could call and defer those payments. how long is that going to be sustainable for? >> margaret, let's back up. it was five weeks or so when we were together. you have to think about -- it seems we were talking about, number one, there were only 3,000 cases in

the united states, the social distancing and shutdowns weren't in place then, but we knew they were coming. and we talked about the need to win the health care battle, win the war against the virus, and it took all people to do it. our industry actually helped the way it was supposed to. whether it is through the regular way of lending we all did in the first quarter, which was $500 billion, $70 billion and to $2 billion to small businesses, whether it is the work we did through the customer assistance program that you're referring to. we have a million and a quarter costumers, 1.25million costumers have deferment of payments, that will go on into the fall. and we engaged in the government programs, the p.p.p., and $300 billion went out. the program is only three weeks old, and another $3 billion is ready to go out. or whether it is the

checks that have been issued to people, and we've been cashing with no fees, even if they're not a customer. and we're not charging any fees and letting all the $1200 go out to them. and the work we do in society at large, which is to help our teammates be safe, with $100 million in charitable giving. and $350 million in the charitable institutes. >> brennan: i want to mention the small business program you just mentioned. that money were you was quickly depleted. there is a new round that goes into affect as soon as tomorrow. when will bank of america get that money out? and will small mom and pop shops get that money? >> the money, in our case, the first piece is pretty much all out the door, and it went largely to small businesses. if you think about the

statistics of who we're going to put in the process next, 80% of businesses have less than 10 employees total. 95% have less than 100 employees. these are small businesses. as long as the program continues to be funded, all of those people get funded. the difference between this program and unemployment, if you qualify for this program, it is like getting unemployment authorization and then have to win a foot race to the office. we need to take away the first come/first serve says aspects and make sure it is fully funded because at the end of the day, it is going to where it is needed, small businesses, businesses with small numbers of employees, and we just have to finish the funding and finish the work. we have thousands of teammates that have been working with the hundreds of thousands of applications. >> brennan: is that money already tapped out? >> well, the first batch is. >> brennan: it went in two weeks. because of the demand, is

the money that has been allocated this time -- do you already have more applications than expected? >> well, we don't. i mean, our portion is roughly around $50 billion of applications. not all of those get funded because some will withdraw and things like that. there is a great debate about how much this will ultimately take, but this is another healthy piece we'll ultimately put to work. but we need to get all of these funded and not make this a foot race. get the work done and get everybody through. the work has to be done in a way that supports the american taxpayers who ultimately pay for this and also gets the small businesses the money and has them pay their employees, which is the goal of the program. >> brennan: so when we spoke five weeks ago, as we mentioned, it was a different environment. since that time, your analysts at bank of america have changed some of your own projections. now the prediction is 16 million to 20 million

jobs could be cut in this country, the recession will be deeper and much more prolonged than initially expected. the job cuts, if we're around 16% unemployment right now, which the white house says we're likely at, do you believe we're now at the peak of this? >> well, i think there are two things to think about. first of all, the base assumptions from five weeks ago changed pretty dramatically. it was a slow growth u.s. to now negative 6% in our case, our experts' estimates, and plus 6% in '21. the key is to understand the quarterly flow of that. a deep recession environment in the second quarter, a less deep in the third quarter, and growth in the fourth quarter. minus 30 and minus nine plus 30, and gross next year, double digits, and works its way down to single digits. there is a great debate on how that works. but our experts think it

is late next year when the economy gets back to the same size it was prior to this. what we've seen in our consumer spending is kind of interesting, it reflects this question of unemployment and cash flow in the household. so far the spending by sour consumers, if you took from january to this week, it's actually flat to last year. but obviously that is a tale of two pieces of time. first it was plus 10, and then it went down about 25% and leveled off there. the month of april is down about 20%, 25%, but it has leveled off. and it is starting to grow in certain areas. one earlier guess is the entertainment business, which is still very far down, but other businesses are starting to come on after the first round of activity. you're seeing that level out. that actually provides some hope, that the economy opens up in pieces, and safely you'll see that consumer spending continue to grow, which will help fuel the u.s. economy. that's the second piece to keep aware. first the economic

projection, and secondly, the p.p.p p. and unemployment. all those things are going into the economy and we're starting to see the effects of those. >> brennan: brian moynihan, thank you very much. we'll be right back. >> thank you, margaret. i know that every single time that i suit up, there is a chance that that's the last time. 300 miles an hour, that's where i feel normal. i might be crazy but i'm not stupid. having an annuity tells that i amrotected. during turbulent times,

consider protected lifetime income from an annuity as part of your retirement plan. this can help cover your essential monthly expenses. learn more at protectedincome.org step by step, we're going to figure this out. we're gonna find a way through this. we're working really, really hard in hospitals, our nurses, our techs, all the docs. it's about staggering when people get sick so that the hospitals can cope. we're gonna go through an awful lot of these. all across puget sound, people have been stepping up and donating personal protective equipment. we stay at work. for you. you stay at home for us. just know we're all with you. thank you, thank you so much.

thank you doctors & nurses. >> brennan: we go now to san francisco, the first metro area to issue a shelter-in-place order. a city now on day 41, and the order may be extended past early may. we're joined by mayor london breed. good morning. >> mayor: good morning. >> brennan: as we said, san francisco acted first. and you have also, since, mandated masks being worn. i'm wondering, what is it that you are seeing that other leaders around the country have not? >> mayor: well, i think the biggest challenge we have is we need to make sure that we are looking at the facts and the data from our public health experts, so that we can

make good decisions to protect public health. the challenges that we face still around p.p.e., around testing kits, is absolutely insane. we have known that this crisis was coming to our country for a long time now. and the fact that as of april, we're still having the same conversations about the challenges, i know that most cities are seeing the same data that i'm seeing, if we do absolutely nothing, it gets worse. and so that's really why we have been really a lot more aggressive maybe than other areas, because we wanted to make sure that it doesn't. when you think about san francisco, we have the university of california san francisco, we have a number of other hospitals, and the fact is if we did absolutely nothing and there was a surge, we wouldn't have enough hospital beds, enough i.c.u. rooms, enough

ventilators to serve the population if we did absolutely nothing, which should alarm any mayor in any city. >> brennan: you said you had a hard time getting protective gear, and i have read some of that is diverted to china. why do you have a hard time getting it? >> mayor: there was a shipment on its way that was diverted from china to france. fema has the ability to confiscate some of the p.p.e. at the border, which has occurred. and sometimes getting things through customs or needing to use a ship rather than a plane, and so we have been resourceful. we are lucky to have incredible people, like mark benioff, who has really helped to work with the university of california san francisco to get p.p.e. and to bring it to the hospitals. and we've shared our resources with one another. but the fact is, this should be a federal

coordinated effort. we should not still be having these conversations. which is a big reason why we have to put these shelter-in-place orders because we don't have the resources that we need to keep people safe, especially around testing. >> brennan: one of the things we learned this week was that the c.d.c. had confirmed that the first death from covid-19 was far earlier and in a different place than that labor previously reported. it was in the bay area, february 6th, where a woman passed away. what do you know about how long this virus was actually circulating in your area? >> mayor: it gives us an indication. i know that the governor has asked to do more testing of people who passed away during earlier periods, before we had cases, in order to determine whether or not they were covid-positive. in fact, one of our first cases of someone who passed away, who we declared who passed away

from covid actually passed away from a heart attack. once we found out their mom, in the same household, was diagnosed with covid-19, we went back and tested this individual and discovered they had it as well. so i think it had been in the community for some time, but, again, the lack of test and resources available made it difficult to really get the facts around who was actually -- who had actually contracted covid-19 before we started to noun announce the numbers. >> brennan: there is a lot of travel from asia into your area, and how much did the president's ban help and how much did it hurt that there wasn't a simultaneous one for europe. >> mayor: i don't know how much of an impact it had because i will say we were already focused on trying to prepare for what

we expected would happen in san francisco. we were monitoring the situation since september of last year. we set in place a declaration of emergency back in february. we operated our emergency operations center because of those relationships between people who live in san francisco, and their relatives and friends in various parts of china. we had experienced, sadly, a lot of xenophobia against our chinese community early on. basically chinatown was a ghost town in the month of january. so we had been keeping an eye on this and making adjustments in order to prepare our city for what we knew was actually p>> brennan: okay. >> mayor: and i'm not certain really what -- yes. okay. >> brennan: thank you very much, mayor, for joining us this morning and telling your story. >> mayor: thank you. >> brennan: joining us now from westport, connecticut, is former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. good morning to you. >> doctor: good morning.

>> brennan: what do you make of what the mayor described with this very early case of col of covid-19 on february 6th. what does that shift of the timeline indicate to you? >> doctor: not much that we don't already know. we knw there were imported cases on the west coast from mid-january to late january. we know that from trevor bedford. and it is not surprising that there were cases in parts of california. there was a lot of travel from china into that region. and the cases that got into the west coast were probably cases from china that got in before the travel restrictions were put into place. it shows they had earlier clusters, but it is not inconsistent with what we already assumed. the seating on the east coast is from europe, mostly italy, and the seating on the west coast is primarily from china. >> brennan: are those different strains of the virus? >> doctor: therfferenai, it appears to be two predominant strains in the

u.s., both on the east coast and west coast. there is no reason at this time to believe that the different strains have different infecttivity, but that is something being looked at in people trying to correlate the sequence of the strains, with outcomes, to see if people who have one kind of strain are getting infected at higher rates. >> brennan: parts of the country are opening up, georgia is getting a lot of attention for how much they've opened up and so quickly. what does that do to the rest of the country? does it up the risk of infection? >> doctor: it does up the risk of infection. georgia is certainly not out of the woods. they're only testing about 1% of their total population. they have 23,000 cases. they may have plateaued in their epidemic, bute cruing new cases. and they're not coming down in the terms of the number of cases. the slope up in terms of cases that got us to the

point of this epidemic was a rapid slope, a rapid progression. the slope down is going to be far more gradual. in china, the slope down was symmetric with the slope up. in italy, they rapidly grew the number of cases, and they're very slowly coming down. we're likely to look a lot more like italy. it will take some time until we see sustained decline in cases and get to the point where there is a low enough spread in the country that we can feel comfortable about opening up parts of the country. it will be mid-may, and maybe late may in parts of this nation. georgia is jumping the gun, getting started too early relative to where they are in the epidemic. >> brennan: i want to ask about rick barr, and they were working on a vaccine. he says he is going to file a whistle-blower complaint, and it stems back to some concerns he had raised about the

president's public touting of hydroxychloroquine. do you think this person has an impact on america's ability to quickly develop a vaccine? >> doctor: it is hard to say it doesn't. i knew rick well, i testified alongside of him before congress. he was very affective in that role. we worked on an ebola vaccine and a treatment for smallpox. people knew him. he was affective, and he was a vaccine expert. and i was sorry to see him go. changing that position is certainly going to set us back. and also make businesses, companies that need to clap bratecollaborate with bardo collaborate. i was sorry to see that happen. >> brennan: what about the concerns regarding hydroxychloroquine. the f.d.a. put out a warning it could have a negative impact for your heart if you take it as a treatment.

should doctors continue to try it? >> doctor: i don't think doctors should be using it outside of protocols at this point, given the fact we have accruing evidence demonstrating really no den fit, an fit -- benefit it could be causing harm. i think we should conduct clinical studies. and we haven't turned over a card that has shown that the drug is affective. this drug has been used very widely in new york city and in italy. i think a lot of doctors i talked to in new york city are starting to pull back from using it right now, given the fact they really haven't seen an indication it has a robust treatment effect. >> brennan: you're a doctor and a scientist, what was your reaction when you heard the president say he wants to explore using disinfetant on the lungs, quote, "almost a cleaning of them." what did you think? >> doctor: well, look,

this is a constant concern, that people do try disinfectants as agents. there is a perception out there, sometimes amongst some people, that they could be affective. there is no affective use of a disinfectant internally. we should be very clear about that. nobody should be using a disinfectant as an agent, ingesting it, or eating it in any fashion. these are deadly agents. we see thousands of calls to poison control each year. we need to be very clear that nobody should be consuming a dis, i disinfectant, and they don't work for the treatment of anything, let alone coronavirus. >> brennan: that's a fairly clear: do not do this. thank you. >> doctor: that's right. >> brennan: thank you, dr. gottlieb. we'll be right back.

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y3uzvy yi0y >> brennan: we leave you with a look at our democracy, on how during these troubled times we are increasingly looking to ourselves for leadership. america's two fundamental powers, as general jim matties tells us, are inspiration and

intimidation. but lately the world has been left hungry for a strong dose of the first. america is being humbled by this invisible enemy, it is a stress test on our democracy. the virus exploits the cracks in our econic, and racialsoc disparities that define who is most vulnerable. the u.s. has the world's highest number of covid-19 infections and reported deaths. the white house says that statistic does not reflect the large size of the u.s. population and the compare comparitively low recovery rate. >> president trump: we were at the top, and nobody wrote it. >> brennan: but arguing over relative death rates seems at best, morbid bid. 57% of americans say the u.s. effort to deal with coronavirus is going badly. and more than half think day-to-day life in this nation will be permanently

changed, according to the latest cbs poll. images of the wealthiest countries in the world facing food bank lines and digging potter's graves is shocking for those who view america as an aspiration, one that has long boasted of its leading medical and technological research. south korea has become the gold standard for public help. massachusetts looked there treatments that his own medical advisers reject. >> president trump: supposing you brought the light inside the body, that you can do through the skin or in some other way. and i see a disinfectant knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something

like that? by injection inside or almost a cleaning. deborah, have you ever heard of the heat and the light relative to certain viruses, yes, but relative to this virus? >> doctor: not as a treatment. certainly fever -- it's a good thing when you have a fever, it helps your body respond. >> president trump: i think it is a great thing to look at. >> brennan: the call for global leadership has so far gone unanswered at the u.n. the leadership america needs may come from the ground up. from people like these pennsylvania workers, who labored for 28 straight days, even sleeping in the factory, in order to produce protective gear. from these georgia business owners, who are defying the governor's calls to reopen. >> you can't bring people

back to life, but you can start a business again. >> brennan: ultimately, it will be up to the american people to decide when they feel safe enough to emerge, and to make the unthinkable calculation of what an acceptable death rate is. and who is essential in america? the grocers, delivery men, electric grid operators, and, of course, the herowick front line workers. and this democracy may ultimately rest with we the people. we'll be right back. e unprecedented times... we are delivering. medical supplies, test kits... and the things you need every day. helping the world move forward - together.

strength. what we deliver by delivering.

>> brennan: earlier in this broadcast, i said the president had suggested potentially ingesting disinfectant. he suggesting injecting disinfectant. that's it for us today. thank you for watching. until next week, for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan. ♪ captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org (male announcer) the following is a paid program for crepe erase.

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