♪ >> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." we are continuing our conversation now with dr. scott gottlieb. you just heard that sound byte from bob woodward. there has been a lot of scrutiny about the president's response to covid-19 given the revelations in bob woodward's book. any president, their very first responsibility is to protect the american public. do you think the critical failing here was one of public messaging or was it operational? >> doctor: well, look, the public messaging wasn't clear and consistent in the outset and could have been better at all levels of government. if you look back in february, the biggest failing over that month

was that we were situationally blind. we had no idea where this virus was and wasn't spreading. so when it came down to shutting down cities, rather than shutting down cities like new york city, we went for a shutdown across the whole country, which was unnecessary in retrospect. we could have focused on mitigation. we had no diagnostic test in the field to screen people. what c.d.c. officials were relying on and telling the coronavirus task force was there was no spread of coronavirus spread, because they were looking at the influence-like surveillance, who is presentering tpresenting to hoss with flu-like symptoms, and therefore the coronavirus may not be spreading. i was talking to officials over this time, and they were adamant about that, and i suppose the president was also being

told that the virus wasn't spreading. and that may have affected his willingness to maybe talk it down a little bit. that really was the tragic mistake, not just that we didn't have the information that we were so confident in drawing conclusions off of what proved to be faulty information and incomplete information. >> brennan: are you saying he was failed by health officials? are you letting him off the hook? >> doctor: i think in this respect, the white house leadership was failed by health officials. we did fot have a diagnostic in the field, so we couldn't screen for it. we should have started working on that in july. and we overrelied on a system that was meant for flu, and the two viruses spread very differently. those were two critical failings. you could say, well, the president put those people in place, he is responsible. you can make second-order

arguments around that, but ultimately, the white house did not have the information they need to make decisions. the white house didn't have aconveronthwhhouse er concerned it was spreading, and they were telling me over and over they were hearing from top officials from the agencies that they were pretty confident it wasn't spreading here. i think when history looks back, that is going to be a key moment. that is what was going on over february. >> brennan: all right. dr. go scott gottlieb, always good to have your analysis. we want to turn to sue gordon, and she joins us this morning from sea island, georgia. good morning to you. >> good morning, margaret. >> brennan: you've got nearly 40 years of intelligence at the c.i.a. and other agencies.

and you argued that election interference is a grave and persistent threat. th a of us as a country are talking about election security. you said it has diversionery and unhelpful and we're doing our enemies work for them. what do you mean by that? >> i think three things, margaret. the first is, i believe the most significant strategic threat to america is if we end up not believing in ourselves. and i've shared this with our president. almost everything else we can overcome. but stopping to believe in the way we govern and act would be devastating. and we know our adversaries are attacking our elections, there is little doubt on it. they continue to and they have in the past. and that is the bedrock of our democracy. but i think we're so

focused on the elections themselves that we're forgetting that their intention is to achieve various interests. in the case of russia, it is to undermine democracy. in the case of china, it is to create an economic advantage, and down the line. and when we don't understand the intention, when we don't understand the intention is to make us weak. and what we do is create a conversation that shows distrust in our leaders and our institutions, and then we've done their work for them. what i wanted to do is provide some clarity around what we know, what we don't, what we're doing well, and what we need to do better. >> brennan: i hear you, and i also hear you putting blame in a lot of places for contributing to this. >> yes. >> brennan: i want to point out something -- what the president said from the white house podium, he again said his campaign was spied on. last night at a campaign rally, he said this about the 2020 elections...

>> president trump: and it's democrats, they're trying to rig this election. if you go to new jersey, if you go to virginia, if you go to pennsylvania, if you go to california, look at some of these races! every one of these races was a fraud, missing ballots. >> brennan: is this undermining of institutions you're talking about coming from the top? >> yes yeah, i'm going to always hold the president more responsible than anybody else because he is, well, the president. and his voice carries further, speaks louder, and so i think he always carries disproportionate responsibility. and that message that you can't trust our system, that you can't trust the vote, that you can't trust the other party, that you can't trust is exactly what the russians

particularly hope to achieve. and their aim would be to sow division, and to get americans say, it's not worth it, i can't trust it, so we're not going to vote. but he is not the only one. when the other party says that a difference in policy means he is malfeasant or evil, that, too, is undermining it. so his is the biggest voice, but there are others. >> brennan: this week the u.s. put sanctions on a russian organization that wanted to denigrate joe biden. when you were in office, was it the intelligence community's conclusion that russia was trying to help president trump win? >> so, again, go back to the interests of russia. russia is going to support anything that advances its

interest. if they believe that president trump's policies are ones that advantage them, then they will. and that's what you see. it doesn't mean that they prefer the human. it means that they're talking about the policies. and remember that russia is a very capable adversary. they've been at this for a long time. they've been at this since the cold war. and they will use humans, and they will use digital means in order to advance their interests. i think that is the thing i would stress. when our adversaries attack us, they are doing it for their purpose. and when we don't respond properly, we are serving their aims. >> brennan: do you believe our election infrastructure, where you go to vote, how you go to vote, that it is adequately protected? >> yeah, i'm really proud of the work both the government has done to

organize efforts, not only at the federal level, but all the way down to state and local, to protect the physical infrastructure around voting. and companies have leapt into the trade to try to protect the infrastructure. so i would never say it is impenetrable because we have this glorious, open nation -- >> brennan: and we know there was russian malware installed in election systems in florida. >> what we're talking about more is the systems around the election, not the election infrastructure itself. so i think our infrastructure is as well-protected as it has ever b even though we can do better on that front. but, remember, half of t information that is being amplified and the misinformation that is going through our social media, we probably have more work to do on that front to ensure that i

inauthentic messaging that would sow divisions is more protected. so we have more work to do that. but as far as the infrastructure itself, even though it can never be 100%, we're in pretty good sted on that. >> brennan: how do people at home protect themselves from being manipulated, by what you're describing? >> so two ways. i would say for every individual, stop forwarding and sending messages that you don't not the origin. we know that on everything from covid to mail fraud, our adversaries are amplifying, putting messages in that look auhentic. and if citizens just keep sending that out, we're g a ptty good jo stofying messages and forwarding messages that you don't know their origin. and the second is, start doing some critical thinking when you receive information. it is someone telling you

what to think are that you can't believe, do some research on your own. and pay attention to cyber hygiene. it will save a lot of heartache. >> brennan: and you said twitter is of concern to you in particular, and social media. sue gordon, it is great to get your insight. we're going to have to leave it there. >> thank you, margaret. >> brennan: we hope to have you back. and for all of us here at "face the nation," we'll be back in a moment. even though he knows i prefer rye! there's never been a better time to save with geico. switch by october seventh for an extra 15% on car and motorcycle insurance. hey, next time let's do a face call! come on in, we're open.

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everybody has a coogan's. and almost half those small businesses, they could close if people don't do something. we have to keep our communities together. that's how we get through this. ♪ >> brennan: the airline industry is one of the hardest hit due to the coronavirus. we want to go to the c.e.o. of united airlines, scott kirby. good morning to you. >> good morning, margaret, thanks for having me this morning. >> brennan: sure. the u.s. taxpayer provided united and other airlines with emergency relief. united took about $5 billion in cash and loans. the deal expires october 1st. that's just two and a half

weeks away. do you still expect to have to layoff roughly 16,000 people? >> yeah, so, first i want to say what the administration, the congress, both houses, both parties -- it is a remarkable bipartisan response, really a rescue from the aviation industry, but to the whole economy back in march. but this is lasting longer and is deeper than most people thought back then. our revenue is going to be down 85% in the third quarter. in a world like that, united airlines and others, come october 1st, we have to have the cares act. we're hopeful that it will be before october 1st. we'll be forced to layoff people just to survive. getting through a crisis where revenue is down 85% is not sustainable for an industry like aviation or almost any business for that matter. >> brennan: how many people will be laid off? >> at the moment it is

16,000, though we continue to work with our unions. our unions have been fantastic partners. in a world where revenue is down that much, the layoffs are far smaller than otherwise they would have been. we got a deal last week that would save 3,000 jobs of the pilots.t bus without ele economy there will be more layoffs to come across the economy. >> brennan: i understand you're saying you hope more federal assistance is coming, but talks are stalled in congress. why can't you go to the private markets for that money? what specifically do you need from the federal government? >> so at united we have gone to the private markets. we've raised about $18 billion since this started, in capital, to get through the crisis. but in a world where we're still burning $25 million a day, you can't go forever on that. our view is, demand is not coming back, people are not going to get back and travel like they did before until there is a

vaccine that has been ibut available a largee at hpens sooner, but our guess is that's the end of next year. so you've got to survive those losses through that time and be ready to bounce back. and we'll be prepared to bounce back and bounce back quickly, but really without government support for an industry that is as critical and an economic point for the whole economy -- we drive economic activity not just for ourselves but for the communities we serve. >> brennan: you said you don't think business will be able to come back until there is a vaccine widely distributed. there is a perception, particularly among some conservatives, that the economy can come back while the virus continues to circulate. but you run an international airline, and right now americans are not allowed into europe, not allowed inta, not allowed into china. your international revenue was down 96% year after

year in the last quarter. >> right. >> brennan: you can't do both at the same time. the virus needs to be under control. >> right. there are some parts of the economy that can recover and are doing well. but there are large parts of the economy -- aviation is one of the most obvious. but anything to do with leisure, hospitality, services, restaurants, they're all hurting, and, frankly, are near depression levels. and borders, as you say, are closed around the world, and that is 50% of our revenue. business travel is almost nonexistent as people are doing things like this as they get through the pandemic. even leisure travel is down significantly from where it was before. that's just the reality. in a business like ours, demand is not going to come back until people feel safe being around other people, and that's going to take a vaccine. that's just the reality.!֎?t some

allow for travel to open. >> what i would say is the administration and both parties, by the wayes ann on both sides of the aisle are vy sutive of aviat both trying to find ways to open up borders through testing, and also through the extension of the payroll support system. we just need to get a bigger deal done. there are bigger nova scotia goinnegotiations going on washington. we just seem to be tied up in the larger washington discussions about the future. but there is significant support. >> brennan: very quickly, why do you think it is safe to fly? >> look, anited airlines, we've been a leader in safety from the beginning of this. we're very proud of it.

we created a partnership with clorox and a clinic that has helped us innovate and find ways to keep people safe, whether it is electrically spraying the planes. but the least understood is the air flow on airlines. it is designed to have it come out and refilter through hepa grade filters every two to three minutes. there is no safer place. we've been doing some studies that will help demonstrate how safe aircraft really are. >> brennan: mr. kirby, good luck to you. thank you for your time. we'll be back in a moment.

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>> brennan: president trump heads to arizona to campaign tomorrow, and both candidates will be in minnesota later this week. both of those states are on the target list for the campaign. our cbs news battleground tracker shows vice president biden with an edge in both. in arizona he is up three points, and in minnesota, a state that president trump lost in 2016 by just

1.5 points, now mr. biden is up by a 9-point margin. anthony salvanto joins us with more from his poll. good morning. >> good morning, margaret. how are you? >> brennan: i'm well. it was tight, but now biden has pulled ahead. what accounts for that? >> we saw this start to move over the summer with the concern over the coronavirus and high the administration is handling it. that is still a huge factor. we find that people who are still concerned about the virus are less likely to vote for the president, and we find joe biden with a lead on people's perception on who would handle the outbreak better. but we wanted to understand more about why. people tell us looking back, they're more inclined to give the administration blamed for how this was handled than to give them credit for perhaps mitigating the effects of the outbreak. the president, as you

noted, is still very much in play here, is in the mix. and one of the reasons for that is continued strong support fromhis base, his republican base. they are still with him. and they also see this very differently when we ask them to look back. they're more inclined to see the president as having staved off what could have been a worse outbreak by doing what he did. i think that underscores the fact that it is how people evaluate things, not just what they evaluate, and the framework that they use that really matters. >> brennan: a key point. wat about on the issue of pocketbooks. what about the economy? >> the president does relatively best on the economic issues, and has a little bit of an edge over joe biden on it. particularly for the president's supporters, even if they've been financially hit by the

impact of the outbreak, they still give the president credit and still think that his policies are going to make things better. >> brennan: tell me what is happening i minnesota. because the[ base has eroded. but they think the president is better on the economy, especially on manufacturing, agriculture, industries that may be important to them. but going the opposite way, joe biden is gaining in this state, as he is in many states, with, in particular, college-degree-holding voters, college-degree-holding women. there is a reason for that. they say they're voting for joe biden to oppose the president. they feel in even larger numbers that they don't

like how the president handles himself personally. if there is one key group you want to watch it is the college-degree-holding women. >> brennan: minnesota was the state where the social justice movement has really erupted out of following the death of george floyd. what were the persceptions pe ps that you found there in terms of what is actually going on with the protest. >> we wanted to understand how people could see this so differently. we know folks on the left and right have very different views of the protest. the folks on the left emphasize seeing the protestors as intending to raise awareness of racial discrimination, trying to change policing policies. but for folks on the right, they look at it and they see protestors as intending to destroy property and be violent and looting and also as perhaps even trying to

overflow the government. what i think this underscores is that different groups of folks can look at the same thing and come away focusing on ect. and thyeo very different views. i think, margaret, i would add that is a thread running through this entire race. which is to say, voters are very locked in. we see more than nine in ten people who say they have already made up their minds. >> brennan: a key point. anthony salvanto, thank you very much for your analysis. we'll be right back.

>> brennan: that's it for us today. thanks for watching. until next week, for "face the nation," i'm margaret captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org when you humble yourself under the mighty hand of god, in due time he will

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. unpress debited destruction. tens of thousands of firefighters battle more that were 60 large fires in california, washington, and oregon. millions of acres torched. the death toll mounting. dozens still missing. oregon officials say several large fires there could burn into the winters. >> this is truly the bell weather for climate change. >> also the 19th named storm now bearing down on the gulf coast. ambushed. the cold blooded shooting of two sheriff's deputies, the suspect on the run. president trump campaigns in the west where he will get a firsthand look at firefighters. he'll celebrate firefighters. >> it is about