captioning sponsored by cbs >> dickerson: item john dickerson in washington, and this week on "face the nation," the police reformers press their case, has their mission found its moment. after almost a year of unprecedented protests, derek chauvin's conviction for the murder of george floyd brought a sigh of relief and renewed purpose. >> biden: we can and we must do more to reduce the likelihood that a tragedy like this will ever happen or occur again. this takes acknowledging and confronting head-on systemic racism, and the racism disparities that exist in policing and our criminal justice system

more broadly. >> dickerson: but even as president biden spoke, a new tragedy and a new protest. this time in columbus, ohio, after a police officer shot and killed 16-year-old ma'khia bryant, who was armed with a knife during a fight with another teenager. >> regardless of the circumstances associated with this, a 16-year-old girl lost her life yesterday. i wish it hadn't happened. >> dickerson: we'll get the latest on that case and more from ohio governor mike dewine. plus, the house passed a sweeping police reform bill last month. can supporters push it through the senate? we'll ask a leading proponent, florida congresswoman andor fmer police chief val demmings. troy finner is the current chief of police in houston, and we'll hear from him as well. and we'll talk with the president of the naacp legal defense fund, sherrilyn ifill. and then a key covid vaccine is back in circulation, with a warning about rare blood clots after a safety

review. as cases decline and the number of vaccinations does, too, we'll check in with former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. it's all just ahead on "face the nation." ♪ ♪ >> dickerson: good morning, and welcome to "face the nation." we are at the point now where the supply of covid-19 vaccines may soon outpace demand. in part because some are hesitant to get vaccinated. and we have some new findings from a cbs poll on that issue. but we want to begin this morning on the topic of police reform. senior national correspondent mark strassmann is in atlanta with this report. [yelling] >> reporter: again this weekend, intertwined demands for racial justice... [yelling] >> reporter: ...and police reform. and american movement sparked by an american moment. george floyd dying

facedown on a minneapolis street. >> there has been a systemic problem that has persisted for a long time, that has covered up murders at the hands of police in the twin cities and across the nation. >> reporter: former officer derek chauvin was convicted of murdering floyd. >> justice, for the moment, was served. we have a long way to go. >> dickerson: but communities of color everywhere say they're tired of the knee on their neck. and week after week, outraged by police killing more people of color. like 16-year-old ma'khia bryant in columbus, ohio. 1-year-old adam toledo in chicago. >> we are not playing games. charge the officer now! >> reporter: daunte wright, shot by a cop in a minneapolis suburb. and andrew brown, jr. in elizabeth city, north carolina. deputies serving brown a warrant last wednesday shot him in the back.

after protests every day since, city officials announced saturday they've started the process to release the body camera footage. >> it is a mike cosem of what is going on across the nation. >> reporter: gins george >> reporter: since george floyd's death, at least 30 states have passed reform laws. it will expose bad cops. but there is also backlash in red-state america, fueled by episodic violence during protests over the last year, and in a sense, the left has lost it. a handful of states have passed new laws intended to curb street protests. >> this bill actually prevents against local governments defunding law enforcement. >> reporter: governor ron desantis called florida's new law anti-riot. [yelling] >> reporter: but to critics, that reaction proves any progress feels

precarious, and that black lives matter remains a call for action instead of an american reality. >> if we're going to change our culture, it is going to be because the community demands it. >> reporter: mark st mark strassmann reporting in ohio. >> dickerson: we go to governor mike dewine. >> good morning. >> dickerson: you said george floyd's death laid bear some of the deepest divisions in our country. and there is a lot for us to learn. what is there to learn? >> i think there is a pathway to police reform. i think there are things we all can come together on, democratic or republican. we have a bill in front of the state legislature that calls for a lot more police training, more uniformed police training. we have 900 or more police deartments in ohio. many states have small departments, and many times because of resources, they don't get

the training that they need. body cameras, the tragedy of a 16-year-old child that was killed in columbus. the mayor made the absolute correct decision. within six hours, they had that out to the news media. but not every police department in this country has body cameras because of the cost. we presented a bill to the legislature that would provide funding for body cameras for police departments. another pathway clearly is there, and that is to treat police as professionals. what do i mean by that? well, we have state licensing boards for doctors, for lawyers, for nurses. we should do the same thing for police, so that when there is a complaint against a police officer, a state licensing board can deal with that. these are common-sense things that we can do, should not be controversial, that we can all get behind. >> dickerson: you

mentioned the ma'khia bryant case. you support the release of the video. when you were attorney general, you called for an outside prosecutor in these kinds of instances. should there be one in this case? >> governor: they already have an outside investigator, b.c.i.. i think in most cases, this is certainly called for. >> dickerson: should it be automatic in these cases? >> governor: yeah, i think it should be automatic. automatic outside someone come in to do the investigation. you also have the prosecution, the prosecution itself. and it is not that the local prosecutor can't do it or the local police can't investigate themselves, but particularly with the police investigating themselves, there is the appearance -- there is always the appearance that that was not a fair investigation. so i think getting rid of that feeling, getting rid of that appearance, making sure it is an outside agency that is doing the investigation. b.c. i. in ohio do a great

job. they're the ones that the mayor has asked to come in and do the investigation in columbus. >> dickerson: you talked about training, and i want to talk about the ma'khia bryant case. there has been a lot of people looking at it, and because the video is out there, a lot of people making judgments. what a lot of people in the black community see is a situation in which young assailants, young black men, after committing mayhem, are taken into custody. there is a shooting, a use of force. and they see a wide disparity in terms of the discretion used by officers. do you understand that feeling? >> governor: well, i certainly understand the feeling. i also understand the feeling of the police officer. i have not been a police officer, but i was a prosecuting attorney. they've got a tough job. they have to make split-second decisions. and in this particular case, for example, you're watching the same thing i'm watching, you know the same thing i'm seeing, but

that's what the police officer saw. so that's why one reason, frankly, to have the video cameras and get that out to the public so everybody can take a look at that. yes, i understand how they feel. it is one of the reasons teaching them implicit bias, more police training, how you defuse a situation, how you deal with someone, for example, who has a mental health problem, how you deal with someone who is autistic -- all of these things we know how to do now. it is just getting that training out to every police officer in the country. >> dickerson: let me ask you about that question of implicit bias. because what you see in the figures is you're twice as likely, if you're black, to get shot in one of these instances. also in columbus, there was a study that showed even though black residents are 28% of the city, they're involved in half of the use of force cases. so it is not just a feeling. the numbers back it up. i wonder if you can be very specific in this

training about basically the implicit views of race that get embedded one way or another into police that cause these types of outcomes. >> governor: this is state-of-the-art training today, john. this is what professionals want. i've never met a police officer who didn't want more training. this is part of that training, absolutely. this is something that i did when i was attorney general. it is something we want to spread out with more police training, continuous police training every single year, even the smallest department. that's what we should have. >> dickerson: let me ask you about qualify immunity. some people say it shields police officers who do wrong-doing. others say it allows them to make a good faith effort in these splitk split-second moments. will ohio do anything to change qualified immunity, do you think? >> governor: john, we have not really had discussions about it. i'll take a look at it, but i have not looked at that to see what impact

that does have. >> dickerson: and you don't have a view one way or another whether it should or shouldn't? >> governor: no. >> dickerson: there is a lot of vaccine hesitancy out there. "a," how worried are you about it? one of the things we found in our polling is 49% of republicans either aren't going to get it at all or are very hesitant. how worried are you, and what would you say to fellow republicans? >> governor: i'm worried, john. we've seen our vaccination rate go down about half of what it was three weeks ago, so that's a concern. but we've vaccinated about 40% -- at least for the first shot -- 40% of our total population. we just need to continue to move forward. if you look at those 65 and ov over, we're over 75%. but the game is not over yet. i'm concerned about it. i know one of the things that we're doing is now

we're reaching out to businesses and providing for vaccinations directly in businesses. we're doing the same thing in our colleges. and the same thing in our high schools. we've got to be more aggressive. >> dickerson: all right. governor. thank you. i've got to be aggressive and move on. thank you, governor. we appreciate it. we go now to congresswoman val demmings of florida, who is also the former police chief of orlando. good morning, congresswoman. >> good morning, john. >> dickerson: george floyd justice in policing act, it has passed the house. the president wants it to move in the senate. i read in the papers there is progress. is there any progress? >> well, i do believe that every day gives us an opportunity for progress, john. and, also, i am hopeful that the senate will meet this moment. we know that informal discussions are going on. i think we're closer than a lot of people realize. i know one of the sticking points centers around qualified immunity.

but i do believe that we can do just about anything that we have the political will to do. and i do believe that we can meet this moment. >> dickerson: you mentioned qualified immunity, it's the two words we hear a lot. senator scott, who has been running this issue for republicans, says that he is trying to float a new idea, and the idea would be that in civil suits, you wouldn't go after the individual police officers, but that the department would be on the hook for an incident. do you think there is any chance that that might get some agreement among democrats? >> well, you know, as i said, john, i think we're closer than a lot of people realize. one thing that we all need to remember is that everybody counts, but everybody's accountable. we do have to look at the inappropriate behavior of some officers, how egregious it is, how inhumane it is.

i do think there are opportunities to sue those individuals on a personal level. the department is always -- or can always be held accountable. i am hoping that senator scott will lead his delegation, if you will, or the republican members in the senate, to sit down at the table, finish the negotiations, and let's get this done. george floyd justice in policing act is not perfect, but it is a major step in the right direction. let's get this done. we need it. the american people need it. >> dickerson: let me ask you about the george floyd policing act and this awful incident, ma'khia bryant, in ohio. under the legislation, federal officials, police officers, they would be restrained from using excessive force unless a third party was in danger and unless they couldn't de-escalate. those seems to be the facts in the case and the bryant case, which means

under the standard set in the floyd policing act, seems that the officer seemed to have acted in the way they were trained and supposed to. >> you know, john, when i served as a police chief, what i prayed for daily was that my police officers would respond as they are trained to do. now, after every incident we would have to go back and look at our policies and make sure that the policies met the moment. but, look, i worked as a social worker with foster care children. so this is a sad moment for me. but i also was a patrol officer who was out there on the street, having to make those slit-second decisions. now, everybody has the benefit of slowing the video down and seizing the perfect moment. the officer on the street does not have that ability. he or she has to make those slit-second decisions and they're tough. but the limited

information that i know and viewing the video, it appears that the officer responded as he was trained to do, with the main thought of preventing a tragedy and a loss of life of the person who was about to be assaulted. >> dickerson: you mentioned your experience. it's always nice in politics to have people who have done something that is being talked about on capitol hill. do you have any advice for your colleagues, republicans and democrats, about how to think this through, given the fact that you have experience as a police officer? >> well, i think it does help to talk to those members of congress on both sides of the aisle who have actually been out there doing the job. but my main advice, john, would be let's don't make this a political issue. when we look at historically throughout our history, even though there has always been two strong political parties, they always seemed, in most instances, to be able to lay down their

political difference and rise to meet that significant moment. this is such a time. so i'm hoping that we will put politics aside and come together because we need to get this done. our communities around the nation need it. our good police officers need it. and, quite frankly, the american people need it. we, in congress, in both chambers, can meet this moment as well, if we have the political will to do so. >> dickerson: while i'm asking you about advice, congresswoman, what would you say to your former colleagues, to police officers who feel like they're being -- they are getting scrutinized more than they deserve, that they're being all thrown into one barrel. how would you talk to them about the efforts to achieve accountability given what you know about the work they do? >> well, john -- and i have talked to some of them, and what i remind them of is that they wear the badge -- and i used to

do this as a chief -- over their heart because they have to have the heart for the job. we want them to have the mind for the job, so that they will make good decisions, but we want them to have the heart for the job as well. and i also remind them: remember, you are well-trained. utilize the training that you have. but, also, remember that it is human beings you're dealing with, and always have compassion for the community in which you represent. and, you know, the overwhelming majority of law enforcement officers in this nation are good people, who go to work every day to protect those, to protect and serve our community. i remind them of that: always stand on the right side, speak up, and be professional, and do the job that you're paid to do. >> dickerson: congresswoman demmingngs, thankk you s so much foror being with h us. "face ththe nation" " will be

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>> dickerson: we turn to our cbs news elections and survey director, anthony salvanto, who has president biden's 100 day mark. he joins us from westchester county, new york. good morning, anthony. >> good morning, john. good to talk with you. >> dickerson: before we get to president biden, you asked some questions in the wake of the derek chauvin verdict. what did you find? >> big majorities, john, 75%, feel that the jury in the case reached the right verdict, based on what they, themselves heard. i should point out that is true for big majorities of both white and black americans, and look at that bipartisanship, like so many things today, and we find a little bit of difference. there are majorities of dems, of independents, who think it was the right verdict, the majority of republicans, too, though a sizable portion of republicans feeling like it was the wrong one. on balance, though, big

balances feeling that the verdict reached the right decision. >> dickerson: 100 days is coming up, and the president is going to speak to congress. where does president biden's approval rating stand at this moment? >> he is at 58%. for context, we go back 20 years, and that's about where george w. bush was in his first 100 days was. it is lower than where president obama was, and higher than where donald trump was. for context, you want to really note that back 10, 20 years ago, there was actually a little more partisan cross-over, at least initially for presidents, where opponents would give them a little bit of a better breathing room. but that really started to change during the obama administration, and donald trump almost never got any democratic support, and that's where we find joe biden right now, where this is built primarily on

getting a lot of democrats and also independents, john. >> dickerson: we used to have actual honeymoons, and now people approve or disis appdisapprove and what jey the president wears. so why is president biden getting relatively good approval ratings and good approval ratings from independents? >> a big part of this is two-thirds of americans think that joe biden is doing a good job handling the coronavirus outbreak. even more specifically, a lot of people feel he is doing a good job of vaccine distribution. this is really important because this administration had set out success for that as a marker in the first 100 days, and he is meeting it. a kind of classic transactional politics. set out a goal and people feel like you've achieved it. on the personal front, majorities describe joe biden as presidential, as competent, as focused, all things people want from a leader in a crisis. this is something that is

in your wheel-house, as you've written about. and these are things that are accruing to those overall approval numbers, john. >> dickerson: that is how he is doing on the promises he made in the campaign. what about the ground he wants to plow going forward. what does the immediate future look like? >> one of the promises, john, was to the bipartisan. people think on balance he is trying to work with congressional republicans. but, of course, there are some hurtles there. one is that the rank-and-file republicans in the country still will not say that joe biden is the legitimate winner of the 2020 election. that puts pressure, of course, on the republican delegation there. and though on policy matters he has some popular policies. notably as he heads into this speech, talking about infrastructure. in principle, if you ask people about bridges, you get support. but joe biden's

infrastructure plan still gets majority support, 58% right now. if you do popular things, you're numbers can at least be decent. >> dickerson: we'll see if the politics get in the way. thanks so much, anthony. we'll be right back with aa lot more "face the nation." stay with us. opdivovo plus yervrvoy is f for adults s newly diagagd wiwith non-smamall cell lung canancer that has spread, tests posisitive for p pd-l1 and d does not h have an abnormal e egfr or alklk gen. opdivo p plus yervoyoy is thehe only fda-approvoved combinanation ofof two immununotherapiess opdivovo plus yeyervoy equals... a chchance for more statarry nightsts. more sparkrkly days. more bigig notes. more smamall treasurures. morere family didinners. more pririvate desseserts. opdivo andnd yervoy cacan cause e your immunune system to harm hehealthy partrts of y your body duriring and aftfter treatmem.

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>> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation." we want to continue our conversation with police chief troy finner. >> good morning, john. >> dickerson: what was the reaction in the force about the verdict in the derek chauvin case? >> john, let me just say this: it is a message to everyone that no one is above the law. if you raise your hand and you take a oath of office to protect and serve and uphold constitutional rights and you do what he did, it is a message that

no one is above the law. it is a message to everybody in our nation, including our citizens, that, you know what, everyone is going to be held accountable. so i think that the jury spoke, the judge spoke, and we need to move forward. but we also need to have deep, honest communications. >> dickerson: minneapolis, the pretingt commprecinctcommander said: "soh is being thrown at us as law enforcement officials. we not sure how we're going to police in the future." i hear anxiety in that statement. do you hear or get a sense of anxiety in your force? >> no, john. i do have concerns with our troops on the frontlines, but you have to remind them, what did they sign up for? they signed up to protect and serve. and you also have to remind them that the majority of citizens in houston and around the nation respect and honor police officers. have you to remind them,

don't get caught up in the negative noise. understand what is going on. understand that people of color, communities of color, are hurting. we have to be honest with them. we have to give value to their perceptions, to their life experiences, but their perception is their reality. our perception is our reality. it is not until you slow down and give value to that, start to communicate and talk about those tough things, and it's when you do that, that's when you build bridges. that's what we need to be doing in our nation. get away from the negative, and understand there is a problem, and we have to address it. and we're going to address it together as a nation. >> dickerson: so what are you doing in your force to try to address those problems, to build those bridges, have those conversations? >> well, i've been in my community for 31yea years as a police officer, so i have deep-rooted respect and relationships. so reaching out to everybody, and non-traditional people. we've got to reach out to former gang members, we've

got to reach out to hip-hop. everybody needs to be in the fight. but what do we do in terms of training and making sure that we are de-escalating every chance that we can, making sure that the officers are slowing down. a lot of the officer-involved shooting scenes, you find out one thing: sometimes the officers rush in. okay? slow them down, gain cover when you can, but also take a critical look at everything that led up to the shooting incident. did we slow down? did we do everything we could? and you've got to put it into the officer's heart and in their mind, sanctity of life is the most important thing. it is important for everybody to go home, not only our police officers, but our general public. so you just got to drill that in every day. and people ask about training. training is just not something you do once a year.

training is every day. it has to be psychological. we talk about touching the hearts and minds of citizens every day. what about our police officers? and then you have to reassure them, look, we've got 800,000 police officers, 18,000 police agencies in our nation. the majority of them do great work. >> dickerson: do you ever worry, chief, that, you know, one of the ways that we get change, one of the ways there is reform, is when there is a lot of public talk and a lot of demonstration. that is necessary in the american story. on the other hand, what i wonder from you is if all of this talk about reform and the police officers who have done bad things changes the level of trust that is absolutely required for public safety and for what the members of your force have to do? >> if you allow it to. it's a two-way street in this. and let's be honest. i'm a man who speaks the truth.

i'm to the point. there are problems, okay? too many unarmed african-american males, or males of color, young males, are being shot in our nation. so we have to address that. but at the same time, let's talk about all of the good work. and when i go out to the community -- because i'm from this community, and i can only speak in terms of houston. people ask me, you know what, chief, why don't we have more black or latino officers in this area? i never want to discount the caucasian officers who have been in our communities, the african-american and latino communities for 25, 35 years, you know, and retired, never shot anyone, never had a complaint. so we have to speak the honest truth. but remember what i said, we also have to give value to a group of people when they're hurting, when they have lost a loved one in a police officer-involved

shooting that probably wasn't justified. we have to just come together and really communicate. >> dickerson: what do you think, chief -- and i know you've paid attention to the ma'khia bryant case, and they released the footage very quickly. is that something you think is a good idea? >> you have to release that footage. mayor turner is getting ready to announce some of the reform that is coming because of the result of his task force on policing. we're going to have a press conference next week. and i don't want to get ahead of him. but you're going to see departments around the nation -- it is a thing of transparency. you can't just talk transparency and not be transparent. the public needs to know. and the quicker you put those body camera footage out, the better off everybody is going to be. >> dickerson: finally in

20 seconds, chief, what would you advice americans watching this footage, because we're going to see more of it, how they should process it? not just in the ma'khia bryant case, but every case. >> look at every case on its own individual mert. merit. don't put all police officers in one pot. just as police shouldn't put a particular community in one pot. because when we do that, guess who wins? the criminals and the bad police officer. we need to have a laser focus on those police officers who are violating people's rights and also the suspects that are out there and are doing wrong. let's have the conversations and love one another in our nation. >> dickerson: thank you, chief, for being with us. we go to the president and director council of the naacp legal defense and educational fund, sherrilyn ifill. she joins us from

baltimore. good morning. >> good morning. >> dickerson: sherrilyn, there is a long history of protests and reform and struggle that has been in american life since the '60s. but something changed with george floyd's murder. i wonder with the conviction this week what you think change and what you think did not change? >> well, i think what has changed since george floyd was killed last summer is that people who have been in this fight for a long time -- and let's be clear, many have been in this fight for decades -- the issue of police violence against unarmed nrchafrican-americans is an issue of the 20th century. we can go all the way back to the 20th century and find these incidences and unrest. it is a signature issue of the unrest in the country during the 1960s.

we emerged with the civil rights act of 1964, the voting rights act of 1964, and the fair housing act of 1968, but we haven't gained on racing in policing. i think where we are now, john, is people are fed up. and that's a good thing. because it is time for a fundamental change. if you can recall, we've been in these conversations for the last seven years, since mike brown was killed in ferguson, missouri. and there has been some tinkering around the edges. there has been some movement. the most powerful movement is that the conversation has shifted away from tinkering around the edges to radical changes and a radical envisioning of what public safety needs to become in this country. >> dickerson: what's an example of what your talking about, in other words, not tinkering but real reform? >> well, you look at places like the city of berkeley that has decided

that armed officers will no longer be involved in traffic stops or mental health calls, or the experiment happening in itheca, where the entire police department is being sent down for a new community and public safety core. it will include some armed law enforcement officers, but it is focusing on the root causes of crime. it is shifting re resources to mental health, to homelessness services and youth services. and what is it that you actually need armed police officers to do, to deal with the most violent of circumstances. but it is a reenvisioning of what public safety needs to be. do we need officers of an arm constabulary to come out and address the possibility that someone is passing a bad $20 check. do we need armed officers to come out and address a homeless person who won't leave your front stoop. we need to think about what public safety is

supposed to mean, and being bold. what we've been doing, john, is something akin to all deliberate speed. you'll remember the ad minnesota of the supreme court in the second brown case, which actually slowed down desegregation. we've been moving at a snail's pace. even mo for myself, i've been involved in this work for quite some time. we realize that reform around the edges is not going to do it. we're looking at elizabeth city, sylvania county, where there have been additional cigz. killings. we the killings to stop. >> dickerson: i wonder if you think there is could be some common cause with the police officer, who say, we're in a system where these communities we work in have been failed by education, by the jobs system, there are guns everywhere, and we're being asked to go in there and sort of face all of these problems on our backs. and that requires a broader lens, too.

would you agree? >> i agree. i'm so glad you said that, john. this is the place -- when people talk about making common cause with existing police officers, it is not about having a pancake breakfast or playing basketball. it is about some real honest talk. police officers need to be begin to be honest about the fact that open-carry laws and concealed-carry laws actually make them nervous. it endangers them. they don't like people having guns on the street and having concealed carry. it makes them nervous. but you don't hear police organizations or law enforcement organizations telling the truth, the things they'll say about how they feel about these gun laws. rather than actually solve the problems of our community, problems of education, problems of poverty, problems of homelessness, we have shifted all of the resources to deal with those problems into our criminal justice system, and we've used the criminal justice system as a holding pen for resolving the core

problems that any healthy democracy has to solve. and that's the conversation we need to be having now. we're now in a moment where we should be able to look squarely in the face the issues that have to be addressed that relate to our young people, that relate to jobs, that relate to homelessness, that relate to the mental health crisis happening across the country, and that covid will only exacerbate. we need to be putting our resources and attention to those problems, and not shunting them off to the criminal justice system and asking police officers, armed officers, to address issues that we have been too cowardly to address as a democracy. >> dickerson: as we're running out of time, i wanted to ask you about the justice department decision his week to open a pattern and practice investigation into minneapolis. how do you think things will be different under the biden administration in dealing with these issues? >> well, i think it will be night and day from bill barr, for sure. i think judge garland -- that's an opening stalvo.

barr was asked if he would open an investigation into minneapolis, and he blankly said no. it was important for judge garland to say that this day. i think this will be the first of many, and one of the things that needs to happen is the reupping of those investigations into unconstitutional policing, and pleaing forces to bear to show we're serious about it. >> dickersrson: sherrililyn ifill, thahank you so o much for being g with us.. we'l'll be righht back. ose e le, so youou can enjoyoy movie nig. and knknowing yourur baby is g g ththe nutritioion he needsd, nono matter hohow you choose to o feed him.. at abbbbott, we fifight for these e moments, developiping life-chchanging technologigies. becaususe dignity demands it. ♪ ♪ oh, , i've traveveled alall over thehe country.. talking g about saving witith geico. but that's's the imporortant b, innit?t? showing upup, saying " “hell! fancy a a nice chat?t?”

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mamabel here i isn't a reaeal. and she e really hatates tha. >> dickerson: we go now to former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. he sits on the board of pfizer, as well as alumina, and he joins us from west port, connecticut. good morning. >> doctor: good morning. >> dickerson: dr. gottlieb, the c.d.c. director said there was a drop in cases that suggested a hopeful trend, do you share that hope? >> doctor: yeah. cases are clearly declining mg the, and hospitalizations are falling as well, which is

a good indication. and even in hard-hit areas, like michigan, you're seeing cases start to come down. i think whereas the past trends, when we saw cases start to decline, we were somewhat skeptical because we knew a lot of the declines were as behavioral changes, and as soon as we sort of let our guard down, we saw cases surge again. right now the declines are being driven by vaccinations and greater levels of population-wide immunity, not just from vaccination, but from immunity. >> dickerson: so when we hear numbers, what you're suggesting is kind of a mindset change in the way we process these numbers when they come in. what other ways should we be thinking in the vaccine world, when we still hear numbers of the kind we've heard in the past year? how should our mindset change and the way we process these numbers? >> doctor: i think we need to think about the

overall vulnerability of the population, and not just the cases we're accruing on a daily basis. the vulnerability of the population has been reduced substantially because of vaccinations. people who are most vulnerable to covid, who are most likely to be the hospitalized or succumb to the disease have been now protected by the vaccine. 10,000 cases now is a lot different from 10,000 cases a year ago, when the most vulnerable americans had no protection from thes diseas the this disease. there is going to be outbreaks in summer camps, there is going to be sporadic infections. we'll have 100 to 1 to 20 0 infections a day, but they'll probably represent much less disease, much less death because most of the most vulnerable americans will have been protected through vaccination. i think we should focus more on hospitalizations as well. that will probably be the

best measure of the overall impact of the coronavirus on society. >> dickerson: if we should change or mindset, should we change the policies and practices that have ben put in place by the states and federal government on how we behave? >> doctor: look, i think a lot of the sacrifices we have made, and americans have made substantial sacrifices over the last year, the things we've asked people to do were based on mutual consent, that people understood we were doing these things to try to protect the country. but as the situation improved, we would pull them back. sometimes we're quicker to implement these pro cautions than we are to lift them. i think we need to lean more aggressively forward and look at ways to relax some of the provisions that don't make as much sense. probably the ones that we should be looking at are things done outside. i think we should be lifting mask ordinances outside, and limiting gatherings outside. and trying to encourage people to go outside, now that the weather is

warming, and do more activities outside. i think the declines we're seeing are really locked in at this point. i don't think we need to be as worried that as we take our foot off the brake that thinks are going to surge. b117 is an epidemic across the country and we're still not being big surges, and that's a good indication. >> dickerson: how concerned are you about those who don't want to get the vaccine, including the second shot some people aren't doing? how concerned are you and what do you think can be done? >> doctor: i think we need to break this down a little more. there are people who are clearly vaccine he hesitant. they worry about the safety of vaccines. i think some portion of those people we can reach with better education and getting the vaccines in the hands of people they trust, like their local physicians. but i think there is also a large group of people for whom getting a vaccine isn't convenient, people who work all day and take care of families. we need to create more

24-hour vaccination sites. we need to encourage businesses to give people time off to get vaccinated. and there is softer demand. there are marginal costumers, like there are for any other product. there are people who say, i'll get vaccinated, but they're not as anxiety as those 65 and 70-year-olds who lined back up in january. and we need to put vaccines in the hands of pharmacies that now how to market it. maybe pay pharmacies a little more, give them an extra $20 bonus to get people vaccinated, to get more information out to those marginal costumers. the rate of vaccine is going to slow. that's not a bad thing, but we need to recognize it. >> dickerson: 20 seconds left, your view on stopping the pause on the johnson & johnson vaccination? >> doctor: well, look, they -- i think they should have stopped the pause on the johnson & johnson vaccinations. this is a safe and affective vaccination. they paused it to try to see if there was going to

be more cases that surfaced. they surfaced some additional cases, but i think the risk benefit of this vaccine looks favorable. >> dickerson: dr. gottlieb, sorry to cut you off, but we're out of time. we're back in a moment.

>> dickerson: walter mondale died last week at 83. ce pvisident of the united states, and the democratic presidential nominee in 1984. it is an impressive resume. but it was not the resume that made people who never knew him meet in the middle of the day. joe trippy posted a story on twitter about working for mondale in the '84 democratic primary. during one of his early conversations with the candidate, trippy mentioned he had been estranged from his father for five years. trippy's dad, an italian immigrant, wanted him to go into the family flower business, but he had gone into politics instead. he was good at it. he helped mondale win iowa. months later, he helped him win pennsylvania, clinching the nomination. before the victory celebration, mondale called trippy to his room. as the aide walked in, he

saw the candidate talking to an old italian man, telling him that his son was in an honorable profession, fighting for peopl who were down and hurting. he is making a difference, mondale said. i count on him, and you need to know that. the response to this story from republicans, democrats, humans all, included words like character, merri mench, decency, honorable, words we'd all like attached to us at the end of our lives. well, my time has come, mondale wrote his former staffers just before his death, and he says he looks forward to rejoining his wife and late daughter. before i go, i wanted to let you know how much you mean to me, he wrote. i always knew it would be okay if i arrived some place and was greeted by one of you. gratitude and thinking of others, both at moments of triumph and at the final moment, when your behavior writes your eulogy, you've gone out pretty well.

>> just trying to help others and be decent neighbors and friends. >> dickerson: few us of will ever have a resume like mondale's but to leave with your heart and gratitude and grace, that life is available to each of us. and we'll be right back. [typing sosounds] [m[music fadeses in] [voice of f female] my husbaband ben andnd i b ben's s chili bowlwl the e very same e year that t we married.d. that's 1958. [voice o of male] the chili i bowl realllly has nr closeded in our hihistory. when the pandemic hit, we had to pivot.

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it coverers your entntire busis in j just one popolicy. becacause small l business o os have enougugh on theirir hand. soso go with t three anand leave ththose old popols in the d dust. sawdust. t technicallyly. don't t interruptt the spspokespersonon. this commemercial is n now ov. logo. three. n no nonsensese. justst common sesense. >> dickerson: that's it for us today. thanks so much for watching. jucome join us next week. we'll be here at "face the nation." for "face the nation," i'm john dickerson. ♪ captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org presentationg is a paid

by the international fellowship of christians and jews. jews have faced persecution after persecution for centuries. tragically today, elderly jews in the former soviet union still face antisemitism and abject poverty. god calls us to defend the oppressed. as christians, we must not stand idly by watching history repeat itself. it was right here where a very dark chapter in jewish history was written. much of the city today is very close to what it was like