the 7pm news, weeknights on kpix 5. captioning sponsored by cbs >> dickerson: i'm john dickerson in washington. this week on "face the nation," a surprisingly weak jobs report makes it clear we're still digging or economy out of the deep hole created by covid-19. experts were predicting a flood of new jobs in april, one million or more. when the numbers came in, they were a dismal quarter of that, just 266,000. >> biden: we knew this wouldn't be a sprint. it would be a marathon. we're still digging out of an economic collapse that cost us 22 million jobs. >> dickerson: but with some sectors of the economy desperate for new

hires -- >> our restaurants are getting busier, and we're finding it harder to find staff. >> there is definitely a glut of jobs and a lack of hands to fill positions. >> dickerson: -- why are americans still is stallstruggling to get back into it's workplace. we'll talk with commerce secretary gina raimondo and neel kashkari. and as we slowly turn the corner in the coronavirus pandemic, should public health be moving the country to move to normal more quickly. we'll talk with dr. scott gottlieb. plus, with the republican party in fresh turmoil over president trump and the big lie about the 2020 election, will believers be able to roll over the non-believers. we'll talk with illinois republican congressman adam kinzinger. and we'll hear from author michael lewis. his new book is "the prem

premonition: the pandemic story." and our salute to a special group of moms. it is all ahead on "face the nation." ♪ >> dickerson: good morning, and welcome to "face the nation." margaret is on maternity leave. the country appears to finally be turning the corner on the pandemic, and there is good news to report. one-third of american adults have been fully vaccinated. children between 12 and 16, will likely be able to receive the pfizer vaccine soon. there are drops in every way, now cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. but we're still having trouble rounding the bend with the economy. and that disappointing jobs report made for sobering headlines on saturday, and reminded us that the road to recovery is going to be a long and winding one. we're going to begin with

former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. he joins us from west port, connecticut. good morning. >> doctor: good morning. >> dickerson: every time we talk, we talk about where things are. and you tell us where things are going to be. you said a few weeks ago, they should change the mask restrictions for outdoors. you think the masks should be lifted for indoors? >> doctor: covid won't disappear, we're going to have to live with it. but the result of immunity that people have required there prior infection and vaccinations, i think we can start lifting these precautions. people have to decide what their own individual risk is based on their circumstances. we have always said from a public health standpoint we would set as a me metric

maybe when we get down to 10 peopl people per 100,000 people, and we're there. probably by this week a quarter of the states will be at 5 people in 100,000. certainly outdoors we shouldn't be putting limits on gatherings anymore. we should be encouraging people to go outside. in the states where prevalence is low, and we're identifying infections, i think we can start lifting these restrictions indoors as well on a case-by-case basis. >> dickerson: one of the things we've seen in the economic numbers on friday is that people are still scared. help people understand how they should think through making their own risk calculations after more than a year of kind of stabbing at trying to get some clarity to decide how to keep themselves safe. >> doctor: look, i think part of the hesitation right now is cultural. we have spent a year

apart, and to stay away from people and wear masks. i think it will take some time to get back into the normal swing of things and get that socialization back. but if you've been vaccinated with the mrna, or the j & j, your risk of getting an asymptomatic infection that you can spread is low. so we can base our public health advice on that. there is one model that is out that says if your 65and above your risk of succumbing to covid if you were infected by it is one is 100, and now it predicts one in 20,000, if you're fully vaccinated. so the risk of substantially reducing -- you can probably conclude probably your risk from covid is comparable, and maybe less than your risk from flu in older individuals. so you can start resuming

older activity. the only risk for someone is fully vaccinated, could you have a risk you don't know about, and you still want to be careful, and you always want to be careful in those circumstances because you don't want to spread an infection. >> dickerson: if i've been vaccinated twice, even if i'm in an elderly vaccination, essentially the risk for me -- i shouldn't think about it as a new thing, but the way it would be with the regular old flu. where we are now is comparable to something we know before, in compared to the risks we would take when we operated in regular life? >> doctor: i think that is right. people get uncomfortable when you start comparing the rate of death and the risk of covid to flu, because so of some of the comparisons made in the past, but i think that is a fair assessment. if you're fully vaccinated against covid with one of

the western vaccines, your risk of having a bad outcome to covid is about comparable to flu and maybe less because the covid vaccines are more comparable than flu. the only residual concern a fully vaccinated person is are they, themselves, immuno-compromised, and you would know that. and are you going to be around people who are immuno-compromised. that's where i would exercise some caution. but outside of that, i think we can get back to doing normal things. i talked in the outset about 10 cases per 100,000, or five cases in 100,000, and we're dropping every few days. by the end of the next few weeks, most states are going to be bow about five. >> dickerson: when you look at the map of places

not having a lot of places not getting vaccinated, do you expect those may be the places where we might see some occasional flarflare-ups between now and the next big stages? >> i think that is probably right. i think we'll have to look at the data closely, how much of a decline you get in protection. we're worry about that in the fall and the winter. i think we'll have to contend with covid and have to reimplement mask ordinances, or even close some schools in certain settings. but i think we'll put public measures in place based on the spread. i think we need to start lifting these things as the situation improves, also, to demonstrate that we can do that, and that we maintain our integrity to reimplement these things when we have to. the public has to feel that they'll lift the

restrictions when things improve. that is partially what is holding back the economy. not because of the benefits, but also because they're being told they still have to wear masks and exercise precautions. in san francisco, very good testing and they don't need mask ordinances indoors anymore, and certainly not outside. >> dickerson: dr. scott gottlieb is, we really appreciate you. >> doctor: thank you. >> dickerson: we turn to jobs and the economy, and commerce secretary gina raimondo. good morning and happy mother's day. >> good morning, and happy mother's day to all of the mothers and grandmothers out there. >> dickerson: i want to start is with the jobs report. the number came in at 266,000. what do you think happened? >> i think we have a long way to go to recover from the pandemic.

it's -- there are so many americans still struggling. eight million fewer jobs than there were pre-pandemic. so, you know, we are working very hard. in fact, we had a meeting with the president on friday. and that was his direction to us, which is: we're making bold moves, but there is a long way to go. and we have to be there to help americans find jobs. >> dickerson: did he say do "x," "y," or "z" to speed this up? >> we're working with congress to get the president's job package passed and his families package. the reality is we have fallen behind with our investments in the economy, and people are still struggling. women in particular are still struggling to find affordable child care, to break down some of the barriers necessary to find a job, to access to the skills they need to get a good job. >> dickerson: women in

particular, tween three betweene and four million lost jobs -- ir shoulders because in most families women bear the pandemic more than any others. is there a particular friction with regard to women getting back into the work force, that you've seen, that makes this recovery particularly difficult for women? >> yes, absolutely. first of all, women are clustered in the industries that were hit the most, waitresses, working at hotels. and we all know that those industries were hit the hardest, so women were put out of work in greater numbers. but the reality is, as you say, women are more likely to be the caretakers, so lack of affordable child care hits women the hardest. the fact that schools were closed, and many still remain closed, hits women harder. >> dickerson: on unemployment, there are a lot of people who believe

that the unemployment relief people are getting is hurting the job market. essentially, people are keeping on unemployment instead of going to work. is there any discussion in the administration about tweaking that or anything to remove that as a barrier to jobs? >> obviously, we're monitoring that. but at this point there is nothing in the data which would suggest that that is the reason people are out of work. by the way, we have to remember that when the president moved to make this happen, this unemployment insurance has been a lifeline, a survival lifeline for so many americans. the number one reason now that people aren't going back to work is what you said, fear or they can't find child care or schools are still closed. we'll monitor it as necessary. but right now we didn't believe that is the reason people aren't going back to new york. >> dickerson: in

montana, they're getting rid of unemployment they feel people aren't going back to work. it seems that a lot of people out there think this really is an impediment -- that unemployment benefits are an impediment to getting people to go look for work. so it does seem that there is some evidence out there? >> it is certainly anecdotal evidence. and it is regional. the governors would respond to what is going on in their regional labor market. wages aren't going up. and people are still telling us the number one reason people aren't going back to work is fear, due to the virus. and more people were looking for work last month than the month before. so i am engaged with businesses constantly, listening, monitoring, but at the moment, it doesn't seem to be that that is the major impediment. >> dickerson: in conversations with businesses, one of the reasons the numbers were down this last month is

that so-called supply chain, the manufacturers couldn't get the materials needed to make what they need. how much of a worry is that to you? and how long might that delay a robust economic recovery? >> it is a significant factor. it is a significant worry. you see supply chains having been disrupted across the board. an area i'm particular focused on is the semi conductor industry. for decades, we allowed america to fall behind, and we don't produce enough semiconductors in america. we want to reshore that supply chain so we're less vulnerable. semiconductors are the building blocks of a future economy. so it is a tough priority and something we're working aggressively to address. >> dickerson: but the timeline on that is very long.

the intel c.e.o. says he expects the supply change -- for the shortage to last for a couple of years. this is something that looks like it is going to be with us for a while. it seems to me that the president has offered a $50 billion plan on semiconductors over five years. but the taiwanese manufacturer of chips is spending $28 billion a year. so this seems like a long-term plan and maybe not enough. >> well, the $50 billion that the president is calling for has to be matched by the private sector. it is my hope that the $50 billion would be matched by another $50 billion or $100 billion by the private sector. the point is we're finally taking action. i've had many, many discussions with senators. we have to get going. as you say, this will take years. we're behind, and it is time to take action and get going on the plan now.

>> dickerson: as the administration's liaison to business, i wonder what you're hearing about the president's proposed tax increases on corporations jamjamie diamond said those tax increases were a little crazy. what have you heard in conversations about the future of their taxes being increased? >> in this regard, i have been actually pleasantly surprised. i talked to nearly 100 c.e.o.s personally, and what they all agree on is they support the president's calls for bold, big infrastructure investments, which are necessary for their competitiveness. they all agree we need investments in broadband, so every american has broadband. major investments in roads and bridges and child care. the question, of course, is how do you pay for it? and the reality is they

knew increased corporate taxes were coming. and i have been very pleased by how many c.e.o.s have come out to support the president's plan. listen, there will be room for compromise for sure, and the president will be meeting with members of congress this week, hoping to find compromise. but businesses need these investments to be competitive, and that's why there is no time to waste. >> dickerson: i want to ask you about a piece of news on the colonial pipeline that was hit with a cyber attack. it supplies nearly 45% of the gas to the east coast. (a) do you think it will have an economic impact? (b) what do businesses now have to worry about? because this isn't the first business to be hit piby a ransomwear attack. >> i will be working very

closely with ali miorkas with this. we have to work in partnership with business to secure networks to defend ourselves against these attacks. the president was briefed yesterday iar with regards to colonial, and we're working with state and local officials to make sure they get back up to normal operations as quickly as possible and there aren't disruptions in supply. >> dickerson: secretary gina raimondo, thank you gina raimondo, thank you so much for beingng with h us. anand happy momother's daay. and wewe'll b be bacck withh neel kasashkari. ststay with usus. botox® i is right fofor you,

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help us understand what it means about that specific report and then what you think can be determined, if anything, about the larger state of the economy? >> well, johnny i t john, i thie shouldn't overreact to any one report. but i think the bottom line is we are still somewhere between eight and 10 million jobs before where we were before the pandemic. roughly eight to 10 million americans ought to be working right now if the covid crisis had not happened. so we're still in a deep hole and we need to do everything we can to put those folks back to work more quickly. i'll give you one example: when the financial crisis hit in 2008, it took 10 years to rebuild the labor market and put the economy fully back together. that is far too long. we at the federal reserve are doing everything we can to accelerate that job market recovery because it is good for the economy and good for families all

across the country. >> dickerson: well, that spector of a slow-plotting 10-year recovery is what has everybody worried. speaking of worried, individual risk perception, we see that people have more money than they seem to be spending. give us your understanding of personal risk choices that people are making, and can that really be changed? and if so, how? >> i think, you know, your discussions with dr. gottlieb and the commerce secretary were exactly right. it wasn't simply the lockdowns from the government that put a damper on the economy. it was each of us, each of your viewers, each family taking actions to protect themselves. yesterday for the first time in over a year, i got back on an airplane because my wife and i have been vaccinated and we felt comfortable. but it is going to take time for that psychology to change. i do think there is some truth to the unemployment benefits maybe being a disincentive, i see that in the data and as we talk

to people. i think child care shortages are a big impediment for people coming back in with schools being partially closed. and i think that fear, the risk of, hey, i don't want to get back on a crowded bus if that's what it is going to take to go to my job. the good news is over the next three or four months, each of those factors should get better as the vaccine continues to pen straighpenetrate and the virus slows down, which should lead to stronger growth in the second part of the year and a stronger labor economy, i hope. >> dickerson: it seems like you're telling us to look to september, when school re-starts and federal benefits will go away. maybe a little sluggish until we get into september, and people are more prodded to work because they're no longer getting unemployment benefits, and those who are worried about having kids at home, well, the kids will be off at school? >> i think those two

factors, and i'm assuming vaccine penetration will give all of us more confidence. my wife and i vaccinated. where are we going to be go into a crowded restaurant where we might be around other people who may not be vaccinated. that gives me somewhat of a pause. as the vaccine penetration goes up, i'm going to feel more confident. i think all three of the factors will trebd trend in a better direction over the next three months. the trend is obviously very good, which should boost confidence. >> dickerson: we have 30 seconds before the break, any numbers in the job reports that stood out to you? >> well, women continue to be disproportionately affected by the pandemic. the data went down for women, actually. there was no job growth. i don't want to overreact to one month, but the child care issues continue to be paramount, and that's why getting schools fully reopened and getting

kids vaccinated will be key to fully restoring our economy. >> dickerson: we're going to take a break really fast right now. but, neel kashkari, stay with us. we're going to talk to you on the other side of the break. we'll be right back. thatat's great, , carl. but we neeeed somethining bet. ththat's easilily adjustabae has no penenalties oror advisory y fee. anand we can m monitor to seeee that we'r're on tra. lilike schwab b intelligenent . schwab!! inintroducing g schwab intelligenent income. a simpmple, modernrn way to y yourseself from yoyour portfo. oh, thatat's cool... i meanan, we don't't have thatat. schwabab. a modernrn approach h to wealthth managemenent. [typining sounds]] [music f fades in] [voioice of femamale] mymy husband b ben and i o opd beben's chilili bowl the e very same e year that t we married.d. that's s 1958. over t the years,, ben'n's becameme a gatheriringe for this community.

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watch cbs in bay area with the kpix 5 news app. ♪ >> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation." we continue our conversation with minneapolis fed president neel kashkari. i want to underscore what you said when we started, which was don't overdo it looking at one month report. however, the projections were that there would be a million jobs in this one month. so that's an enormous miss. what i wonder is, is there something about this response to the pandemic, coming out of it, that has kind of thrown off all of our abilities to measure economic activity and to project what the economic

activity will be? >> absolutely. this is unlike any other economic shock in any of our lifetimes. this is very different than the financial crisis. and as we talked about earlier, before the break, a lot of this is being driven by people's only feelings of personal safety, their own health for themselves and their families. it is very hard to model that out and to know. dr. gottlieb talked about we spent a year conditioning all of us to wear a mask, be safe, and be cautious. and now we have to get people to change how they feel inside. so we can put out economic forecasts of how people are going to respond to different incentives, but it is really uncertain. it is still the virus, and -- te virus and people feeling safe about the virus that will drive this economic recovery. the hope is congress has been so aggressive in the past year, and the federal reserve has been so aggressive, we positioned the economy for a fast

recovery, not a 10 year recovery. and how we're all feeling and the confidence that ultimately we need to have to fully restore the economy. >> dickerson: what does the recovery look like, actually? if it is not 10 years, how many years are we talking about? is it just replacing the eight million or the 10 million we would have if we hadn't been hit by this pandemic? >> for me, it is the 10 million because our population continues to grow. and so those are new people potentially entering the workforce, hopefully entering the workforce. if the pandemic that not hit, we estimate there will would be 10 million more americans working, those who already had jobs and new entrants in the labor force. at the federal reserve, wewe're focused on achieving what weigh call maximum employment and contributing to our economy. i'm looking at when do we recover those 10 million

jobs? i think it will take a few years before we can get fully back to that place. but two years is much better than 10 years. if we can do it faster, so much the better. >> dickerson: the fed thinks about maximum employment and prices. tell us in this strange world we're in right now, what we should think about inflation and prices, when we should be nervous, and when we should not remember stories from the 1970s and overreact? >> yeah, well, we aim for an average of 2% inflation over time. for 10 years we've been under shooting that target. we know based on math, in the next fo few months, the inflammation ninflation numbersl look high. the oil prices plummetted last year. so just based on math, we know the inflation numbers are going to look high in

the next few months. and we know there are short-term supply chain disruptions, that you talked about with the semiconductors. are these short-term mathematical supply-chain issues that should resolve themselves? or are they longer-term inflation issues? for me, i'm susceptible that we've have sustained inflation if we still have five or 10 million americans out of work. we think the labor market will drive inflation over the long-term. right now i'm not concerned about a repeat of the 1970s. i do think inflation is going to pop in the near term, but it is likely going to be transitory. if we're wrong and high inflation comes because of a lot of government spending over the next few years, the federal reserve has the tools to make sure that we do not have a repeat of the 1970s. that is not my base-case scenario. but if that were to happen, we know how to deal with that. >> dickerson: neel kashkari, thank you so much for putting it all

into perspective for us. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> dickerson: former president trump continues to be the central figure in the ongoing drama over the future of the republican party. this week house republicans are expected to remove congresswoman liz cheney from her leadership position. she has been consistently critical of mr. trump for perpetuating the lie that the election had been stolen from him and inciting the riots on january 6th. adam kinzinger is one of the few republican members supporting cheney and joins us from his district in illinois. good morning, congressman. >> good morning. how are you? >> dickerson: before we get to the republican party, i want to ask you about colonial pipeline. you are on the energy and commerce committee. what do you know about this attack and how important is it? >> it's really important in terms of, you know, understanding the role that cyber is playing in the future. things like critical

infrastructure, energy. i don't know much more than what you all know. maybe i will this week when i get back to d.c. but it needs to redouble our country and focus on things like critical infrastructure in the future because this is only going to continue to happen more often if we're not careful. >> dickerson: speaking of internal divisions, the republican party in the house, it looks like liz cheney on the republican side is no longer going to hold that number three position. what is that debate about? >> yeah, look. it is incredible. liz cheney is saying exactly what kevin mccarthy said the day of the insurrection. she has just consistently being saying it. a few weeks later kevin mccarthy changed to attacking other people. i think what the reality is, as a party, we need to have an internal look and a full accounting as to what led to january 6th.

right now it is basically the titanic. we're in the middle of this slow sink. we have a band playing on the deck, telling everybody it is fine, and donald trump is running around trying to get on the first life boat. we are saying, guys, this is not good, not just for the good of this party, but for the future of this country. we're four months after january 6th, an insurrection, something that was unthinkable in this country, and the message from people who want to get rid of liz cheney are saying this is just time to look at the future and move on, like this was 10yea is years ago. this was an insurrection led by the president of the united states, well-deserving of a few accounting from republicans. >> dickerson: but if you're a leader of a party, and 70% of your party thinks the last election was stolen, though they're wrong about that, you're a leader of

that party, you can't change the party you're the leader of. so why should a person be a leader of a party that is fundamentally at odds with what liz cheney believes? >> because truth matters. right now -- and we have to look and understand why. yes, 70% of the base believes that the election was stolen because they've been told it was. they've been told by the president of the united states. they've been told, in many cases, by republican leaders. or at least republican leaders have not counted it, on something to vastly crazy, as the election is stolen. and this is why you have this real battle right now in the party. this idea of let's just put our differences aside and be unified. you cannot unify truth with lies. the lie is that the election was stolen. the truth is joe biden beat donald trump. i'm sorry that 74 million people voted for donald trump. they were simply outnumbered. and as a party, let's

focus on now how do we go out and win more people. that's why, actually, i started the "country first" movement, just to say tell people the truth and quit pedaling in conspiracy. they're going to get rid of liz cheney because they much rather contend that the conspiracy is real than to actually confront it and take the temporary locks to save this party and this country. >> dickerson: you and liz cheney and maybe mitt romney and the senate are outnumbered by the current republican party. it is donald trump's republican party. the numbers are on their side. so why stay in it? >> well, look, i was a republican far longer than donald trump, and i'm only 43 years old. he became a republican just a few years ago, and tried to change the whole definition of conservatism. so i think it is worth a fight. the reality is over time, we're going to see who wins this battle. and then there will be a

lot of decisions to make everywhere as we see parties realign and change. for me, i'm a conservative. i'm going to fight for the soul of this party. but every member, not just leadership, but every congressman, every state representative, every member of the party in the primary has to decide, are we going to exist on lies or the truth? and everybody who grew up in sunday school, like me, who thinks maybe accepting a lie is better -- the jesus i know never says anything about it is okay to lie to the people as long as the end state is the same. truth matters, and that's what this party has to come to grips with no matter the cost. >> dickerson: do you think donald trump's power is his ability to grow the electorate, reach out to new members, or because members are scared of crossing him? >> i think it is the latter. in the beginning, he was

able to reach to people who were struggling o make ends meet. but donald trump was done after january 6th. when kevin mccarthy said, this is donald trump's fault, make no mistake. he was done. he went to mar-a-lago, didn't even go to the inauguration. two weeks later, when you look at the financial side of it, and there is an election in two years, and we want the majority, kevin mccarthy went and put the paddles on donald trump and resurrected him in the party. and that's what empowered him, and everybody went quiet. that's why the "country first" movement is trying to push back, because we have to fight for the soul of this party and country. >> dickerson: all right, adam kinzinger, the fight continues. thank you so much for being with us. and we'll be right back.

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deaths around the world were reported last week. according to the world health organization. cbs news foreign correspondent chris livstay reports from india. >> reporter: the death toll shows no signs of slowing. new dehli is extending the check points like these for another week as cases creep throughout the country, and even across india's borders. the river gangee is revered as a goddess, ushering the dead to paradise. but in recent months, it was a gateway to india's inferno.o. this was thought to be the biggest super spreader event ever, due to religious gatherings and letting down its guard, india is now surpassing 400,000 daily infections

for days in a row, says this epidemiologist. >> there is still a huge underestimate where they are. and every death is a tragedy because these are all avoidable deaths for the most part. >> reporter: the virus shows terrifying signs of catching fire in rural areas, where 75% of indians live. hidden cameras show a hospital in this holy city, and relatives, not doctors, look after the sick, mixed among patients with other ailments. had my wife gotten the right medicines and treatment, she might have survived, but she didn't get it here. >> they need to restrict the movements and gatherings in those places. >> reporter: but the nation has ruled out a nationwide lockdown. india is one of the worlds biggest producers of vaccines, but only about 3% of indians have been vaccinated, prompting the government to ban exports. and causing a crisis in

africa. kenya says it will run out of vaccine within days at the continent braces for a second wave. the cases are also beginning to spike and neighboring countries like pakistan and ne nepal. here in new dehli, a leading epidemiologist says the local lockdown is too little, too late. >> dickerson: chris livstay reporting from india. we'll be right back.

>> dickerson: we go to michael lewis, author of a new book, "the premonition: the pandemic story." and he joins us from berkeley, california. good morning, michael. >> good morning, john. >> dickerson: i want to start with a quote from bill parsel, the nfl football coach, you are what your record says you are, and you quote that in your book, to explain your view on the american record on the coronavirus. why is that, quote, important? >> the starting point for this book is, look, we were sitting at a little more than 4% of the world's population with 20% of the world's death. before the season, before

the pandemic, we were rated by experts as most prepared for this sort of risk. but the games get played, and as bill parsels said after a losing season, you can point fingers at whoever you want to point fingers at, but all of it is avoid looking in the mirror because you are what your record says you are. our record is appalling and it is a deep negligence of our population. >> dickerson: you went into this project looking for the roots of that negligence, and you chose a number of different characters to illume nat something. what were you trying to illuminate? >> a system. i was really worried because of a book i had written about the federal government. that the take-away from this whole event, like

losing a sports game, let's point the finger at the quarterback or the coach or whoever. and people would think if we just changed a person or two here, it is all going to be better. when, in fact, the characters in the story that i tell, you could tell by the shape of their frustration. there were these extraordinary people who had gone to unbelievable lengths to prevent just this thing from happening, and you could tell by how they fail that this is a bigger problem. we've got these systematic things we need to address. >> dickerson: and one of th big things you identify as a systematic problem is that the people who know aren't able to get their information to the heads of the people who can act, either because they're not heard or because they're not listened to? >> that's part of it. that's part of it. we had, you know, very persuasive evidence. carter mesher, one of the

main characters in the book, could have sat you down on january 20th and persuaded you really pretty quickly that what would happen is going to happen. that is a month before the centers for disease control acknowledges this is a risk to american lives. and in that month, you know, the delay of the response cost thousands and thousands of lives. so part of it is -- part of it is that. yes, the wrong people are being listened to. but part of it is, the system was designed for them never to get there. we have built -- especially at the federal level -- a government that operates in a defensive route, and punishes error but doesn't punish inaction in the same way. so anybody who has got, you know, wisdom, news, insight that implies action and implies taking

some risk is naturally going to be shunned because the government really doesn't want to do that. >> dickerson: i want to linger on this important point that you're making. what your characters all have is a risk-taking muscle. they have been in this fight for their whole careers. they have, the title of the book, a premonition beause it is informed. and yet the political instinct in politics is at odds with that. is that a fair way to think about this? >> it is a totally fair way to think about it. and then you think about what does that mean? what does it mean especially when you're facing this sort of risk? a disease risk requires you to get out in front of it in ways that are kind of unnatural to the infrastuctstructures that we ha. because by the time you have proof, data, that this is a deadly thing that is going to kill hundreds of thousands of americans, it is too late.

the disease is moving among you. you have to almost be clar voiclairvoyant, and you have to explain to people why you're doing them that doesn't seem obvious. yeah, there is this thing in wuhan, but actually it is effectively here. all of n my characters, they're amazing people, but they prefer to commit a sin of co-mission than omission. they default to action. >> dickerson: i want to go back to a point you're making earlier, which is, if it is a systemic poblem -- >> it is not to led donald trump off the hook. that's not really the pointer. the point is no matter how you feel about him, even if you despise him, if your mind comes to rest at

oh, it was all his fault, we are never going to address the underlying problem that actually drove our response. and we are never going -- we're going to be similarly at risk the next time this happens. and every single one of the characters in the book make a very persuasive case this was a dry run. that this could have been much worse. it could have killed children. it could have been more lethal, and we are fools if we think this isn't going to happen again. so to just point a finger -- like a losing football team, to point a finger at a single person involved and say that's what we lost, that's catastrophic. it's not how you fix the team, right? >> dickerson: that's right. michael, we're out of time. we really appreciate it. thank you so much for being with us. and this programming note: michelle obama sits down with gayle king for an

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>> dickerson: for some number of ions, on a show like this, happy mother's day was something the moderator might have wished others to have. no more. we're full of mothers at "face the nation." margaret brennan just had her second child, our executive producer, senior producer, booking producer, digital producer, operations manager, associate directors, graphics operator, editor, and teleprompter operators, mothers all. and my mother, nancy

dickerson worked on the first broadcast, and today i'll see my mother-in-law for the first time in 15 months. she adopted my favorite mother of all, ann dickerson, my wife. that's it for us today. thanks for watching. until next week, for "face the nation," i'm john dickerson. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org it's beauty,, - [m[macaw vo] p pretty bo. - or t the beast..

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