good morning. welcome to mosaic. it's always a privilege to host mosaic on behalf of our producer and cohost. today we have. he lives in the bay area. we had him as a guest last year when his book came out. now he has a new book out. we are fortunate to have him because he travels all over the

country and different parts of the world. dr. matthew fox. great to see you. >> good to be back. >> you just got back from mexico as well as south carolina. tell us about those trips. >> there was this marvelous conference in monterey mexico dedicated to value. it went on for three days. there were 6,000 in attendance plus 75,000 online, including prisoners. they did a good job organizing it. it was organized by an amazing woman. the theologian from brazil, he and i spoke the first morning and then we did a dialogue together. the last time i had seen him was 20 years ago when we had been silenced by the pope that year. i went to visit him and see what the communities were all about. it was wonderful seeing him. i was expelled from dominican

order by pope or cardinal and he left the francis can order the same year. he got married and my path was to become an anglican and work here in san francisco. >> right. >> reinvent forms of worship in young people's language like rave and so forth. >> cosmic mass. >> it was a beautiful experience to see these many people wrestling with issues of values in a very public way. the governor of the state was there. he introduced. that was interesting, brought politicians together with theologians. >> must have been something. what were some of the questions asked? >> one of the questions asked was is the catholic church losing out in south america? he said yes. but he didn't say he regretted

it much. we have to realize christianity comes in many expressions and always has of course beginning with the early church itself. we have four gospels and they all see the world in a different way. that's how humanity is. i think the catholic church is learning some humility in latin america and obviously humility is hard to learn. this new pope from south america, obviously he is very important to these people. father just wrote a book on the new book which is very positive. he talks about a new spring for christianity because of this pope. i hope he is right. i believe the pope is a very fine man. he has all i can give him. i think middle management has been appointed the last years

by the other popes. >> i think we feel about the pope, but maybe next day he can change things. but that doesn't seem to happen. >> no. it was a very human institution. with the close last week, there were progressive steps made in terms of divorce, talking about gay. then right wing organized and there is this backlash. it will go on again until they meet again. but at least it's on the table now. there are factions in catholicism. the extreme right wing has had full sail. they've been appointing bishops all over north and south america including the bishop of san francisco, extreme right

wing group. they're not really interested in theology or spirituality. >> i forgot where it was had. >> the bishop, he fired him. >> that's pretty outstanding. >> yes. then the fact that the pope has chosen not to live in the palace. >> quite an example. liberation with the poor. we will take a break and talk more in the next segment. please join us as we have dr. matthew fox, an activist as well as a mystic and great writer.

welcome back. we have been talking to dr. matthew fox. he has a new book out. tell us about it and why this matters today. >> he lived from 1260-39. people say well that's a long time ago. what does he have to say to us? lived during the time of the teaching of the jewish mystical tradition. >> that's right. >> so it's uncanny what he has

to say today. i have a chapter and yung says ek hart gave him key to the unconscious. that's a huge thing. dr. suzuki, the great buddhist philosopher says ek hart is the one zen thinker of the west. a hindu says the ultimate compliment. it's uncanny how though he lived in the 13th and early 14th century speaks to our time. we are rubbing elbows with buddhists, hindus, muslims. when i wrote my first book, i had a writing that ek hart is a sufy. he is explicit about indebtedness to islam when he gives creditness to the muslim

philosopher before him for his concept of spark of the soul. he talks a lot about spark of the soul. he was caught ek hart when he was a young man. thur man quotes him a lot. ek hart says this is the immoral part and it is a spark that can never go out. >> thur man would say life is alive. >> exactly. life is alive. that's the real miracle says thur man and the real revelation is there is a heart in the center of the universe in life. >> that's right. >> it's not alive neutrally. there is a heart there. the universe is caring. ek hart was all about justice. he says the person who understands what i say about justice understands everything i have to say. you can see why howard thur man

picked up on that. his spirituality is not a flight from the world. it's about engaging the world and creating new ways of relate and new forms. >> i have been reading it. it's been fantastic. i've almost completed it. i saw you at the book reading at barnes and noble. i picked it up again to read more. i had mentioned prayer. he said a lot about prayer too. >> definitely, yes. and about going deep. he talks about going down, talks about sinking. he says i pray god to rid me of god. part of it is letting go of projections on god and entering silence and stillness. you might say that's his buddhist side too. ek hart says god is super official darkness who has no name and will never be given a

name. he is trying to respect complete mystery of divinity far bigger than anything you can talk about. >> emphasis on gratitude also. >> absolutely. he says if the only thing you say is thank you, that will suffice. he has these phrases almost like a bumper sticker. they're profound. ordinary people understand him. he was condemned by the pope a week after he died. why? he supported the women's movement of his day in the middle ages and also supported the peasants. he was a first theologian to preach in german. german at that time was peasant dialect. he was stepping out of the privilege of being an intellectual and being with the poor, peasants and the women. >> that's why martin luther almost was killed when he

translated bible in german. >> that's true. and he came after ek hart. he owed him a lot indirectly. even luther did not know ek hart because he had been condemned. his student was a dominican also and he was not condemned. he liked him very much. luther was influenced by ek hart, john toller. >> i have you down as writer and activist. also a mystic. >> for me, the mystic is lover. we're all lovers. bill ever son, a california poet who was a dominican also as was i and ek hart, he used to say most people experience god and nature or experience god not at all.

the mystic is a lover and profit or warrior of course is busy defending what we love. today of course we have these crises of mother earth with climate change and everything. it's really a wake up call. how much in love with earth are we? are we in love with earth enough to stand up and take responsibility to defend it, change our ways with energy and all the rest? ek hart is a champion because he saw the sacredness in everything. he says every creature is a word of god and a book about god. >> beautiful. >> it's not just to a biblical text but to stone, force, oceans. >> the word. >> the word is all flesh. the word made flesh in so many marvelous ways. yes, we have to stand up. that's why he is so relevant.

he's brought forth the wisdom of many of these traditions without knowing them. he never met a buddhist. he never met a hindu. yet they claim him as their own because he dares to unveil the same kind of trues that they found. >> i came across a beautiful poem just recently. she says i am not the river, the mind, nor the rock, nor the sand that holds everything together. none of these meaningful things, not yet. >> not yet. yes. another song she wrote, at the river clarion. she says that the moss, the rock in the river, they are part of holiness too. for me that is a cosmic christ theology. all the beings are other christs. we are all other christ. that's what renders everything

sacred. >> you have a fascinating book to pope francis. >> yes. >> i want to look at that in the next segment. >> great. >> please join us with dr. matthew fox.

welcome back to mosaic. dr. matthew fox is author of nearly 40 books on spirituality. i was kidding with him, read not all of them but half of them at least. we have come across wonderful things in his latest book also last year, letters to pope francis. i was really captured by his fore path creation spirituality. tell us about the four paths. >> i think the architect, help name our deep spiritual journeys. it is latin language.

so it goes back a ways. positiva is gratitude, joy, wonder, awe. i think that opens the soul, awe and wonder. negative is a path of silence, meditation, also suffering, grief, pain. that too is spiritual journey and opens us up. the spirit of the darkness of the soul is real for a lot of people. life is not easy. then there is the creativity, the idea that the holy spirit is always about creativity. hovered over the waters of the beginning of creation. equinus says hovers over the mind of the artist at work. we are all artists. living is art. look at that beautiful shirt you are wearing. where would we be without music

and dance and ritual and all the arts? then there is the transformative path, the path of justice and compassion. >> i like that. >> that has to be the steering on our creativity. with creativity we can create gas ovens to enjoy the people we are scapegoating, can create more human missiles. human creativity can go either way. we have to steer it. that's what justice is all about. i think those four paths which are really at the heart. >> i love that point. you mention i think the four es. tell us about the four es. >> that's right. i end my book with the four es because i am trying to apply his principles to today's world. i think the four es help to name what's going on or should be going on. first, we need a new economics. have we learned anything from the collapse of wall street

eight years ago. now wall street is back to the usual gains and main street continues to stumble. no one is in jail. unbelievable. we need to develop economics that works for everyone on the planet, not just the two legged but the forests, oceans, four legged ones, the whole bit. are we capable? we are. humans have amazing capacity. david courten is a very important economist who i think has been doing that. that's one e. another is education. for 40 years i have been critical of the educational system in america because it is all left brain. it's all about clear distinct ideas. it's feeling. it has to include our hearts and guts where we feel injustice. >> feelings first. >> there we go. einstein said values do not

come from intellect. they come from feelings. that's missing so much. this is why young kids are dropping out of school. they're bored, especially kids from lower economic situations. i have been working with inner city kids. that's my activism. >> you do that a lot. >> i have seen creativity bring them alive and they experience the joy of learning. then they want to stay in school. before that, they don't see the connection. a third e is, religion needs to look at all. ek hart is a genius, almost a freak. there is no one like him being praised by all at the same time. >> 13th century. >> the fourth e is ecology, how we are treating the earth. climate change and all this is

staring us in the face. the governor of florida today, he says there is no climate change. i have a friend in miami who tells me if you walk streets of south miami there are six inches of water on the streets. florida is sinking and the governor is living in this bubble saying what climate change? it hasn't been proven. it's crazy. >> i can't understand that. >> this is human nature. we are capable of creating such a bubble. that trumps reality, science, truth. we have to start really getting strong about our responsibility and time is running out for us on the planet. we will not have much time to turn things around. there is not much left. the young people know this. the comfortable who are still running things including media think it is not important. but it is very important.

this can unite the human race, i think. if your air is foul and soil and rivers are poisoned, your kids will not be healthy. >> i was reading where science world as well as technology and medicine are more creative in doing the impossible than we who believe in the impossible. we don't believe in the impossible anymore. they do it. >> the word miracle comes from . i . at what engineers can do, building bridges and all the rest. the potential is there for us to do so much in terms of solar energy and thermal energy and different ways. in india, they invented a car that runs on compressed air. that's a pretty good deal, no pollution. air is still pretty cheap. >> there was no glass possible made for the iphone when steve

jobs started, i understand. "we are going to make it possible." he made it possible to have that. and we have iphone 6 and all this everywhere. millions of people buy it. >> exactly. >> we will come back in our last segment with dr. matthew fox. please stay with us. i hope you have been with us because we have had a great

discussion with dr. matthew fox. during break he mentioned he had a story about the engineering that was important. >> a professor of engineering came to my program a few years ago. he had been teaching 27 years, engineering in colorado. he said i am burned by engineering, academia. i don't know what's left. after a few of our courses he said i got my soul back. he went back to boulder and started engineers without borders. 14,000 members today. >> isn't that something? >> these engineers do marvels, go to haiti, amazon, african, afghanistan teaching people to create solar generated irrigation systems, all these miracles engineers can do. i saw him a few months ago and he said it all has come from the experience in your program. that's an example of good education that makes the soul

live again. humans do great things. engineers started engineers without borders. that's a story of hope. you can change a few people and they do what they're called to do and that's how things get changed. >> right. again, we think things are impossible. yet when people find their soul, their heart. >> anything is possible. >> yes, the creativity flows. >> holy spirit takes over. you can call it that too. can you say any of those es are more important than the other or are they equal? >> i think the ecology one is the one staring us in the face. if you are not breathing and your children aren't breathing good air and the beauty of the planet is disappearing, diversity is disappearing, seeds are disappearing, the food, we can kiss our species good-bye. >> that's right. >> i think that's the one that is telling us to wake up.

>> some of us have had that vision. why do you think others not. we need more people to catch the vision of how important our planet is. >> exactly. the media, education, politics, economics is so narcissistic, human centered. it doesn't think of the polar bears dying, elephants, whales, great beings that have been here far longer than us that are dying. if you have this narrow vision of the world all about humans, which i think is pure narcissism, then you can't break out of it. this is why we need more newer education that includes the heart. i think the young are clammerring with this. they can get facts on an iphone. they don't need facts. they need wisdom. they need creativity to come forward. >> spirituality as you say. >> creation and spirituality.

>> in a different sense of the world. it is the christ nature or buddha nature in all of us. bring that out especially when they're teens and their whole life is before them. >> thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >> i am glad we got a hold of you. you are all over the world. >> you are very persistent. >> we'll have you back when your new book comes out. next year, we'll have him. his autobiography is coming out. thank you for being with us. i am ron swisher. eople papay for r health insnsurance — no matter r what your r incom. how muchch is yours?s? julilie and bob b are paying $700 l less, everyry month. dee gogot comprehehensive covee fofor only $1 1 a month. anand the navavarros are p pg less than n $100 a mononth.

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and ususe less enenergy frfrom 4 to 9 9 pm when l less clean n energy is availabable. becacause that''s power r down . life from the cbs b area studios, this is kpix news. the bay area prepares to get back to normal. are people ready to ditch the strict rules? an uptick in scales is pushing the hiring spree. how long will it last when city is saying goodbye to green grass. how three counties are teaming up to help out. good morning. let's start with the quick check of our weather. doerun, the weather is