captioning sponsored by cbs >> dickerson: i'm john dickerson in washington, and this week on "face the nation," back from his trip abroad, president biden returns home to face familiar problems. the symbolically neutral switzerland was the site of the first summit between a u.s. president and a russian leader in almost three years. the scenery, spectacular. the atmosphere, chilly. president biden says he did what he came to do, put putin on notice about russia's escalating aggression, particularly with what is increasingly turning into a new cold war. >> biden: we have significant cyber-capability, and he

knows it. he doesn't know exactly what it is, but it is significant. if in fact they violate the basic norms, we will respond. >> dickerson: we'll talk to the chairman of the house intelligence committee, adam schiff, and we'll hear from fiona hill, the former national security council official who was present at the last meeting between u.s. and russian leaders. then as we plunge into summer, the country is reopening, but closing down the virus in some regions remains a struggle. >> biden: unfortunately, cases and hospitalizations are not going down in many places, and the lower vaccination rate states. >> dickerson: with more than 600,000 americans now dead from covid-19, new mutations on the rise, and the vaccine rate slowing, what does this mean for the return to normal? we'll check in with former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. plus, is it time to go back to the office? or is remote work here to stay? we'll talk with author

daniel pink. finally, a look at gathering history as it happens. >> history is not about yesterday, but it is about today and tomorrow. >> dickerson: with the head of the smithsonian museum's lonnie g. bunch iii, and he'll tell us why it is important to collect now for the sake of later. it is all just ahead on "face the nation." ♪ >> dickerson: good morning and welcome to "face the nation." we begin today with the chairman of the house intelligence committee, congressman adam schiff. good to have you here in person. >> yes. thank you. >> dickerson: it is a rarity, but hopefully one that won't be so rare in the future. let's start with cyber-attacks. there has been a lot of cyber-activity, recently the colonial pipeline, the largest meat producer -- hw good is our intelligence in understanding and knowing the scope of these

threats? >> i intelligence is very good, but it is not predictive. so we seldom have insight on who is going to attack us. but we're pretty good at developing attribution, but that doesn't prevent the injury from taking place. i do think a lot of these hacking groups, operating on russian soil, some operating on chinese or iranian soil, they have a sisinergistic relationship with the united states. >> dickerson: the relationship that you talk about might be the pretext for retaliatory action. how well do we know this is i emanateing from russia and china? >> well enough to disrupt the attacks, the financing of the attacks, and the remuneration they earn, but also to hold these nations accountable. i think we need to develop an international rule of

the road, where if a nation doesn't take action against cyber-groups operating on its soil, we hold that nation responsible, which means we sanction that nation. which means we use that nation's resources to indemnify against any losses. >> dickerson: so it is not credible for president putin to say i don't know. >> no, it is not at all credible. and it is not credible for him to suggest even if he knew they were operating on his soil that he was powerless to do something about it. these criminal actors don't go after the russian oligarchs because they know they were end up in a gulog somewhere. >> dickerson: so they have easier local targets, but they don't hit them. >> absolutely. >> dickerson: in the meeting with president putin, he asked the russians to imagine what would happen if a ransomware actor took action against a russian pipeline. it sounds like the president was saying,

that's a nice pipeline you have there, a shame if something happened to it. >> i'm not sure if that is what he was saying. but i think putin understunderstands he was sendig a message that he will protect our government. i think the purpose of the summit was for biden to say, here are some of my red lines, and don't expect to get a pass. >> dickerson: as you look at the entire effort to stop these cyber-attacks, you mention we have pretty good ability to tell who did them or to chase after the person who did them, and the president has asked companies to harden their target. is there a way in which intelligence has to go on the offense even more than it has in this area? and if the u.s. is on offense in the cyber-relmrealms, does that think we're entering -- >> i think we have to go more on the offense. that means when we're working in conjunction

with foreign states, that we treat them at arm's length. and we use our cyber-capability to destroy the infrastructure they're using, and to raid whatever funds they're accumulating from these attacks. does that yield to greater instability? very possibly because we'd be taking action against foreign parties. but, look, this is happening, and it has been happening for years and years. and what we've been doing thus far hasn't worked. one of the hospitals in my district was ransomware attacked years and years ago, and it was a paltry amount, but since then the amounts have gone up, the sophistication of these groups have increased, and unless we get more serious both about our defense and also our offense, we're going to see more of this. >> dickerson: going back to a conversation we used to talk about, which was another way in which russia was destabilizing the united states, which

was misinformation, update us on are they still meddling in our media, with propaganda? >> they are still meddling. they still trying to sow division and discord. i think they may have been disdeterred somewhat from crossing lines during the last presidential election because they realized were joe biden to be elected, they would have to pay a price, and they have. that doesn't mean they wouldn't intervene in the necks electio next election. they can use certain tactics, like social media, to help favored candidates. but when it comes to overt things, like hacking institutions, dumping documents, they have to know that would prompt a very serious response from this president, unlike what we have had over the last four years. >> bish >> dickerson: speaking of elections, there was a new one in iran.

what did you make of that outcome? >> the outcome was predetermined. but what struck me was this was the lowest turnout in an iranian election perhaps in history. iranians voted with their feet by not showing up at the polls. and millions who showed up at the polls cast white ballots. it was a protest vote to say you have essentially stripped us of any choice of a more moderate leader. and instead it just ratifying who the supreme leader wants. that to me was significant. it was a protest vote. >> dickerson: do you think it will have any impact on our relationships with iran? >> i think we have an opportunity to re-enter the j.o.c.p.a. there are advantages to iran and raisi. if it goes well, raisi can take credit. if it goes badly, they can

blame it on the prior regime. in the future, it looks like hard-line iranian politics and world positioning for the foreseeable future. >> dickerson: in the last minute or so we have left, the department of justice under the trump administration subpoenaed your e-mail records. what's the latest on that? >> this is something i found out from apple a month ago. that is one issue, and i had to hear from apple, and not the justice department, what had gone on in the last four years. the inspector general is doing an investigation. i talked with the attorney general about going beyond that. he needs to do a wholesale review of the last four years. what happened to our committee and the members of the press, that is just a sub-set. the direct intervention bite the president and the attorney general, implicating the president like that, of roger stone, one of his aides, whose

sentence was reduced before he was partnered, michael flynn, whose case was made to completely go away, these are gross abuses of the independence of the justice department. we don't know how far they run. and our new attorney general has to find out. >> dickerson: congress schiff, we're out of time. thank you so much for being with us. we'll be back in 60 secondnds with h dr. scottt gottlilieb and a l lot moree "face e the nationon." ststay with usus. h cocough), which cacan permanenently dadamage my lulungs. my lungsgs need prototection against flflare-ups. so it's time to o get real.. becaususe in the r real world. ...our lunungs deserveves the l protecection of brbreztri. brezeztri gives s you bebetter breatathing, sympmptom improvovement, and flare-e-up protectction. itit's the e first and d ony cocopd medicinine prproven to rereduce flflare-ups byby 52%. breztri i won't rereplace a rescueue inhaler

for sudddden breathihing prob. itit is not fofor asthma.. tell y your doctoror if you he a a heart condndition or h high blood d pressure beforere taking itit. dodon't takeke breztri m me than prescscribed. brbreztri may y increase y yourk of thrusush, pneumononia, anand osteopororosis. call y your doctoror if worsed breaeathing, chehest pain, momouth or tonongue swellil, proboblems urinanating, visn chchanges, or r eye pain o o. for r real protetection ask yoyour doctor r about bre. >> dickerson: the u.s. passed a grim milestone this week: 600,00,000 lives lost due to covid-19. and with the dangerous delta variant on he rise, experts say getting vaccinated is more important than ever. our senior nation correspondent mark strassmann reports from atlanta. >> reporter: no, no, never. vaccine hesitancy, vaccine

hostility. on summer's first day, every state reports plunging rates of first shots, like louisiana, with america's second lowest overall vaccination rate. the delta variant, now identified in 41 states, looks menacing. it is the most contagious corona strain. sometime next month it could become america's dominant covid variant. >> the variant could win this race if we do not increase the proportion of people in this state who are fully vaccinated more quickly. >> reporter: especially in states like south carolina. its vaccination rate ranks in america's become 10. dr. verna drexler. >> when the temperatures warm up -- everybody needs to be vaccinated. >> reporter: 70% of

ameriamerican adults with at least one shot by july 4th. but unless the pace doubles every day until then, we're not going to make it. another sign: help wanted. as america reopens, employers can't find help. america has 9.3 million open jobs. one reason: nearly four million people quit their jobs in april. the highest quit rate in 20 years. >> it is hard to hire people. you can interview people, but they're not coming back. >> reporter: smaller staffs has meant smaller recipes. >> telling guests we're out of chicken, it is a sentence i thought we'd never say. >> reporter: this weekend eight more states caught off extra jobless benefits, hoping to fill some of those open jobs. health officials like to say that covid should not be about politics, but vaccine resistance is both political and personal. here in georgia, the vaccination rate is well

below the national average. and the two groups who most say no to shots: people of color and white republican men. john? >> dickerson: mark strassmann, thank you. we turn now to former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. he is on the board of pfizer and author of an upcoming book: "uncontrolled spread: why covid-19 crushed us and how we can defeat the next pandemic." he joins us from westport, connecticut. good morning. >> doctor: good morning. >> dickerson: let's start with that goal, president biden said 70% of adults by july 4th. he will miss that. is it important that he missed that? >> doctor: if the administration set a goal and missed it by a little, it is not going to have an impact if we hit 68% or 70%. the reality is we're vaccinating a large portion of the american population. we have to remember where we started and where we are right now. it took us a full month to fully vaccinate the 1.4

million residence of nursing homes. and we delivered 300 million vaccines. it is a substantial achievement. right now we're on sort of 1.0 in terms of making vaccines accessible. the goal was to make it accessible in the community for people who wanted to go get vaccinated. they can go to a point and access the vaccine. now we need to think about pushing it into community sites, where people can get it to them through doctors, offices, schools, places of employment. to get the people who are still reluctant or who still face challenges getting into the access sites. i think the vaccine administration is going to declined over the summer. people aren't going to be seeking out a vaccine in july and august. but as people contemplate going back to school and work in the fall, they will be seeking out vaccines, and that's when we need to think about the 2.0 campaign. >> dickerson: if the 2.0

campaign has to meet people where they are, if they've been reluctant, that's one part the of it, is another part of it the delta variant, in that it appears to be hitting in areas, not surprisingly, inareas where people have not been vaccinated? >> doctor: i think that is right. this variant is probably 40% to 60% more infect tifinfectivethan the u.k. varia. it doesn't necessarily appear more pathogenic, meaning more dangerous, but it is infecting people more easily. it is starting to become more prevalent in the u.k. in areas that are unvaccinated. when we look across the united states, we see wide variance among vaccines. some states have 80%, and other states are struggling to get to 50%. when you look at what ep

epidemiologist say we face in the fall, we will have a 60% more transmissible variant, they show an up surge in infection, and reaching the peak of 20% of the infection we reached last winter. so about 20% of the peak in january we'll hit in the fall at some point. i think that is probably an aggressive estimate. i don't think it will be quite that dire. but when you look at the estimates, you see it varies widely between states. connecticut shows no up surge, but mississippi, alabama, arkansas, shows up surge. it is based on how much population-wide immunity you have based on vaccination. >> dickerson: another reason to get vaccinated is what we're learning about the long-term effects of covid, the u.k. and they're struggling with the delta variant.

there was a u.k. study about brain tissue. what did that show this week? >> doctor: right. so the u.k. does very good perspective studies of people. they have a biobank where they follow people over time. and they take blood sam psamples and do m.r.i.s, to go back and look and say were there things we could have seen in an m.r.i. or a blood test that could have predicted an outcome five or 10years later. so they went back to the biobank and looked at people who had m.r.i.scans of their brains and looked at how many people developed co covid, and when they compared those individuals who developed covid against matched controls, they saw a pretty pe persistent -- certain areas of their brain showed a shrinkage of parts of their brain.

it is not clear in the virus caused that or if it was a direct affect on the brain, but it is very concerning because it suggests that the virus could have an effect on certain portions of the brain. if parts of the brain that show shrinkage, like taste and smell, the kind of complaints that people reporting after having the virus, they're complaining about taste and smell. the balance of the information that we're accruing does indicate that covid is a disease that could create persistent symptoms. some people clearly have persistent symptoms after recovery. and it appears to affect boning both the brain and -- you see people with persistent heart rates, and that could be damaged. the bottom line is we have the tools to avoid it

through vaccination. >> dickerson: in the last 40 seconds, another tool that might be online, the biden administration annoyed a $3.2 million investment in experimental antiviral drugs to treat covid-19. what do you think about that? >> doctor: that's right. i think this could be a real game-changer. this is a virus we should be able to drug. the machinery this various uses to replicate are things we've drugged beore. it is not a virus that should evade our drug development tools. i think we will have a drug that will inhibit the viral replication. pfizer is working on one, merck is working on another one. there are a number of other companies also engaged in this pursuit. i think we'll get a drug that inhibits viral replication. it is basically like a tamiflu for the flu. to prevent the progression of the disease. >> dickerson: dr. scott gottlieb, we're very grateful that you're here.

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when bipipolar i oveverwhelm, vrayaylar helps s smooth the ups anand downs. >> dickerson: this summer american companies and their employees are thinking about and making plans to return to the office. to help us understand what that process might look like, we're joined by best-selling author daniel pink, who writes about business and human behavior. good morning. >> good morning, john. >> dickerson: dan, i want to start with -- it feels like there is kind of a blank sheet of paper that businesses and employees have after this pandemic. what do you think employers and employees should be thinking about the new work world as we come out of the pandemic? >> well, and i think the paper is somewhat blank, john, but i think we have some initial scribblings on it. for years companies said we can't have widespread remote work. why, because technology

won't work and people will sherk. and then in four days people converted to that model, and productivity went up. i think what we're going to see coming out of this is not a return to 2019, but a fundamentally new configuration of work, even a new configuration of what an office looks like. >> dickerson: what did we learn about remote work that we were wrong about when they previously thought people couldn't handle it? >> we were completely wrong about productivity and about trust. it turns out that most people in the workforce you can trust. i think that's an enduring lesson of this. and i think if we go back, and say it is a funny little experiment, but you better be back in the office or else you're going to get fired, i think that is tone deaf and a misreading of the market. so we learned about trust. and we learned that is

face-to-face interaction is essential, but not face to face every day. what i think we're going to end up with on the other side is an enduring form of hybrid work. >> dickerson: at morgan stanley, the c.e.o. said if you can go to a restaurant in new york city, you can come into the office? an we want you in the office. is that going to stick? or might some people who work at morgan stanley say i'm going to go somewhere else? >> that kind of comment from the c.e.o. of morgan stanley, i think in honor of father's day it will earn him a massive eye roll. for a finance c.e.o., it is a massive misreading of the market. we have 5.8% unemployment rate, and 3% unemployment rate for college-educated workers.

as your earlier package said, we've got the highest quit rate in this entire century. and so i think when a lot of talented workers hear that kind of comment, they're going to say, okay, bomber, i'm going to go work for citi or some other bank. >> dickerson: thank you, dan. we're goining to take a commercial, and we'll be er say . right back, boomer, with dan pink. stay with us. s... - ...prevented nearly 100% of hospitalizations and deaths due to covid. - thank you for loving me that much. - thanks. ready to shine fromom the insidide out? try nanature's bouounty h, skin a and nails g gummi. the numberer one brandnd o susupport beauautiful hai, glowowing skin,, and hehealthy nailils. anand introducucing jelly y s

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♪ >> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation." and our conversation with author daniel pink. so, dan, we were talking about what was discovered about work during the pandemic for those who could work at home. what is your read on the essential workers who couldn't work at home, who had to go into the office? >> yeah. i mean, i think we have to really, as a country, both

as consumers, as businesses, and as leaders, pa off on that word "essential." we pay lip service to it, but one of the most important things we can do coming out of this pandemic is focus on the dignity of work. and dignity means decent wages, save conditions, and dignity means an opportunity to grow. i feel like that among the enduring lessons of this pandemic is that we have a two-tier workplace. that is morally indefensible and it is economically unsustainable. >> dickerson: and in who hands do you think that moral obligation rests? >> we see so much of what is happening in washington, but do you see any businesses, and is it in their interests to answer some of the needs raised by the pandemic? >> i think there are some. i think it is a collective issue, john. i don't think it is the job of any single institution or person. i think part of it comes to us as consumers and as -- for instance, simply treattreating essential workers well, saying thank you, but that is not enough. you have some companies moving to hire wages, and you have some companies,

not a lot, moving towards subsidizing daycare. because four million american women dropped out of the workplace, and we only have about half of them coming back to the workplace right now. one of the interesting things about this moment, and i think we should consider it a moment, it reflects the turning of a page of this country. and we have the opportunity to write the story afresh. the most important story we can write in the u.s. work force is ensuring that every job has dignity, decent wages and an opportunity to grow. >> dickerson: to the extent that workers are moving around, and we hear stories about people just saying i want a better quality of life, do american employers have to be become more entrepreneurial about selling themselves because they're going to be going into this new workforce? >> that's a good point. at some level, a lot of the risk and responsibility has gone from organizations to

individuals. we're now responsible for navigating our careers. we're increasingly responsible for managing our education and training. certainly the world of retirement savings has put more of an onus on people. i do think it is smart for most workers to think of themselves as entrepreneurs, as navigators of their own career. now, that is easier for some people; harder for other people. which is why we need to give everybody a platform where they can flourish. >> dickerson: when you and i last spoke, your book had come out, and it sounds like with so many people working from home, every day felt like tuesday. that figuring out the time you spent during the day was a challenge for all of us. did you learn anything about timing° this timing durins pandemic? >> i think there are two important lessons there. one of them is that structure can be liberating. itends up being true. when we have a lot of autonomy and freedom to

configure our scebl schedules, it helps to have some amount of structure. when you look at some of the numbers about burnout or depression or anxiety, there is the importance of breaks. we have a huge amount of evidence that breaks should be part of our performance rather than a deviation from performance. if we start encouraging people to take more breaks, i think people will be happier and more prodoductive. >> dicickerson: anand, dan, wewe have to t take a brreakak now.w. ththank you soso much forr beining with uss. and we'l'll be rightht back. my lungsgs need prototection against flflare-ups. so it's time to o get real.. becaususe in the r real world. ...our lunungs deserveves the l protecection of brbreztri. brezeztri gives s you bebetter breatathing, sympmptom improvovement, and flare-e-up protectction. itit's the e first and d ony cocopd medicinine

prproven to rereduce flflare-ups byby 52%. breztri i won't rereplace a rescueue inhaler for sudddden breathihing prob. itit is not fofor asthma.. tell y your doctoror if you he a a heart condndition or h high blood d pressure beforere taking itit. dodon't takeke breztri m me than prescscribed. brbreztri may y increase y yourk of thrusush, pneumononia, anand osteopororosis. call y your doctoror if worsed breaeathing, chehest pain, momouth or tonongue swellil, proboblems urinanating, visn chchanges, or r eye pain o o. for r real protetection ask yoyour doctor r about bre. [typing sosounds] [m[music fadeses in] [voice of f female] my husbaband ben andnd i opened b ben's chchili bowl the vevery same yeyear that wewe mamarried. that''s 1958.. [voice o of male] the chili i bowl realllly has nr closed in our history. when the pandemic hit, we had to pivot. anand it's s been realllly hel to k keep people updated o on googogle. we wouldn'n't bebe here withthor wonderful l customers.s. we''re realllly thankfulul for f them.. [femalale voices s soulfully s g "“come on n in”]

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raisi may be a newcomer on the stage, but inside iran he is already a well-known figure. last night his supporters came out to celebrate his victory, raisi talks the talk of a veteran regime insider. i thank almighty god for the people's trust, he said. but it wasn't so much people's trust that got him elected, rather a stage-managed process that virtually guaranteed he would win. it looked legit, with tv ads reassuring people that the polling stages would be safe. raisi was a shoo-in. but turnout was the lowest in history. laila won't tell me who she voted for. you won't tell me? >> no. >> reporter: but like so many people, she is fed up with the grind of life under u.s. sanctions and

sees better relations with america as a way out. so you would like to see mr. biden and mr. raisi connect. >> why not? >> reporter: here is why not. raisi who is under a trump-sanctioned for human rights abuses. also in command of the iranian navy boats that harass u.s. war ships in the persian gulf. but there is one area of probable cooperations: a revived nuclear deal with the u.s. and its allies. raisi has said he will respect it. in part because he'll benefit politically if iran's battered economy gets a boost from the lifting of american sanctions. negotiators have been working on the final wording of a deal that the iran side says could come in a matter of weeks. john? >> dickerson: lis pump

liz palmerin iran, thank you. fiona hill was the national security council's senior director for european and russian affairs during the trump administration. good morning. >> good morning, john. >> dickerson: dr. hill, i want to start with the u.s. is preparing new sanctions against russia over the poisoning of alexei navalny. what do you make of that? >> navalny was poisoned with the same substance that was used in a different form against sergei and his daughter back in 2018, which some people might recall. and on that same occasion, it also triggered a similar set of sanctions and other responses. the russians then took to actually destroy all of the stockpiles, but as

discovered, they kept a lot of the novel agents. probably betting on the fact that they were so secret that nobody would ever actually get to the bottom of the use of the substance, but they were called out when they used the same thing against sergei in salisbury. >> dickerson: is this something that president biden would have brought up in the meeting with putin, or is it outside of their exchange of carrots and sticks? >> i don't think it is outside of the exchange. president biden, by his own account, did raise up navalny, not just the poisoning, but the fact he is now in jail after recovering in germany. the russians have been put on notice that the death of navalny would be seen a a really serious event that would basically get some responses as well. so i think, you know, the

russians are certainly forewarned and probably weren't aware that these sanctions were coming. >> dickerson: president biden presented president putin with a list of 16 areas in infrastructure. and said they were off-limits. the president said this, i pointed out we have significant cyber security, and if they violate these basic norms, we will respond with cyber. was essentially president biden saying that's a red line, cross it and we retaliate? >> absolutely he was. we have made those red lines in the past to russia on a number of fronts, not just in cyber-, but also in the military realm. and when the russians have crossed them, we have responded. an important point is to make that response credible. so it is not so much we're telegraphing it publicly, but that some response happens behind the scenes, and there is a clear message sent to the russians and they understand this. i think the dilemma is not

being entirely comprehensive in your list of what is off-limits. because the russians are very much testing the guardrails at this point, so testing the limits. we can also expect there might be some covert actions that might go beyond the 16are areas that are off-limits, and then we're going to have to go back to them with additional list of things that are off-limits as well. this is going to be a back and forth, i suspect. >> dickerson: speaking of covert information, do you think that president biden would have said to president putin privately, given him some evidence of what the u.s. knows, and proof that the u.s. has not only about what russia has been doing, but about how far our reach of retaliation could have been? privately would he have shared that kind of information to back up his threats? >> i don't think that he would have said something quite explicit because there is a real concern that the russians can get ahead of everything we

want them to do. that's why people are very cautious about talking to the media because putin is the master preemption. he'll get ahead of it or head something off or did something that would require some other different form of retaliation. our militaries have been very effective at this. we've had a long-standing channel between the chairman joint chiefs of staff with their counterpart. and we're very clear if something happens in the military realm, we will responds. and that did happen in syria in 2018, when they were pretending to be syrian rebels, and shot, and there were very heavy responses. that's the kind of message you send. you do it privately. it can be at the professional level with the intelligence, or envoys of our military offices, and then they see the response and then the message is reinforced. so, again, it has to be

very carefully calibrated. but i think that president biden, by sitting opposite president putin, looking him in the face, as he said, and being very clear about what the red lines are, is setting the tone for the next sets of meetings. >> dickerson: the word "cold war" gets thrown around a lot. can you characterize if that is applicable with respect to this cyber-dance that is going on? or how should we really think about that conflict? >> the cyber-wall is a hot wall because actions are already happening, right? we know that the russians have this massive penetration of our systems, the solar winds hack. they have interfered in our elections, trying to get on to critical systems. we've seen the ransomware attacks, which many suspect are criminals for hired, or at least not reined in by russia, certainly allowing attacks

to take place on everything from pipeline to hospitals and other systems. in terms of information, we know that the russians have been out using social media platforms. so we're already there. what we're trying to do is trying to rail that back and to basically -- to basically rail that back and get some kind of restraint here. so we're basically with the dilemma of how do we do that? can we get a comprehensive cyber-agreement, like we did in the nuclear weapons realm? is that going to be too difficult? >> dickerson: all right. we'll have to leave it there. fiona hill, thank you for being h3re. >> thanks, john, for having me. >> dickerson: and we'll be back in a moment.

>> dickerson: late thursday president biden signed a bill that made june 19th a federal holiday. juneteenth is the day in 1865 that the last slaves were notified they had been freed under the emancipation proclamation, which had been signed two and a half years earlier. the process of making juneteenth a holiday followed a similar timeline, long advocated for and privately celebrated, but the final stage was brisk. we asked the secretary of

the smithsonian institution, lonnie bunch, to reflect on the importance of juneteenth. >> juneteenth is really a special moment. it is a moment that is really the first hole day holidaythat we have that celebrates freedom. it is really about helping us understand the fragility of freedom, the importance of freedom, and the struggle for freedom. there has always been this moment, but to suddenly say this is really about helping a nation remember something that it often doesn't want to remember, and helping a nation honor those people who were enslaved, but they believed in an america that didn't believe in them. this is very emotional. i'm very emotional about juneteenth. >> dickerson: you have dealt with the federal government. are you surprised how fast this happened in the end? >> i'm always surprised when things move fast with the government. i think what it tells us is the impact of the last year. people recognizing that issues of race are not

owned by a single community, but, rather, they shape us all. i think there was a profound sense it was important to remember that america as a nation has grappled with some of its most difficult moments and has made affective change. this is both a celebration of change. a celebration of freedom. a celebration of a community. ad for historia, it is a wonderful embrace of the importance of history. >> dickerson: there is a grappling with how to tell, and how much of the story to tell, about slavery that was knit into the very beginning of the country. how do you look at that debate and where it stands? >> i believe strongly you cannot understand america without understanding slavery. that our notions of freedom, our notions of liberty, or juxtaposed with our notions of enslavement. so i think that it is not about pointing blame.

it is not about remembering difficult moments just to hurt. what it is about is to say a great nation understands itself, understands itself in a complex way. and by not grappling with slavery, we are really not telling not only a true history, but we're not telling a true story of ourselves. the debates show that history is not about yesterday, but it is about today and tomorrow. and so what i'm grateful, as an historian, is the opportunity to teach, to share these stories, to share these histories. because i have to be honest, when you look at the story of slavery, one of the things that has always struck me, there were people in many communities didn't want to talk about it, were embarrassed about it. but i wish i was as strong as my enslaved ancestors. so i want us to honor that strength by remembering and telling their stories. >> dickerson: because a truer story is a more

nourishing story. >> it helps us do a couple of things. it helps us as a nation embrace ambiguity. we far too often look for simple answers to complex problems. and slavery is complex. and it is a way to understand notions of where people crossed racial lines to try to help the country live up to its ideals. you had people who sort of struggled for generations but believed that freedom was important. what always struck me as i did research on slavery, they would always say that in the quarters, in the small cabins, they were always talking about freedom. it really was the sort of thing people believed in when they shouldn't have believed in it. >> dickerson: let me move now to the present day. what are the museums here collecting today for tomorrow? >> what i think is important for the smithsonian is to recognize that we have to make sure that america remembers. and one of the ways to do that is to collect these stories, to collect these

important artifacts, so that maybe we won't even use them for the next 20 years, but somehow a curator or historian will be able to really look and any january 6th is important. we recognize to have what i call the rapid response team, to really think about are there issues that are really important that we should collect. so whether it was january 6th, having people out there collecting posters and banners that people put together, and later collecting broken bits of furniture, things that reflect the damage, because i think that is an important story. >> dickerson: how fast did that rapid response team get out there? >> oh, they were out there within a day. it was really important to do that. what we were able to do is to bring people together and both collect rapidly, but to collect in a way that was cognizant of the people we were dealing with. for example, we collected a lot of the demonstrations around black lives matter that happened here in

washington in lafayette square. but rather than just go in and take everything, we worked with the community. we talked to people who were leading these demonstrations and said, we want to make sure we collect stories that reflect your points of view. so we left things out. we didn't just go in and just take. because we wanted to be a fair partner. and then we did the same thing with the pandemic. we knew that this notion of obviously america being shut down over a virus is crucially important. i remember seeing pictures of the flu epidemic in 1918 and thinking, we need to make sure we document that. so the brilliant staff collected amazing things. the first vial where the vaccine was given in new york city. they have that. one of thehe early n nurseses that got o one of the early shots, wee haave her scrubs anand her vacccine card. dr. fauci gave us a model of the coronavirus that he used. the key is to think about

how do you document today so that people who don't know this story will be able to understand it two or three generations from now. >> dickerson: is the goal not just to get an artifact, but to curate something that has embedded in it the meaning of thing itself? >> artifacts don't speak by themselves. so if you collect the stories and work with community to understand why certain posters were so important to people, i think that gives you a richness that allows you to engage people, to bring history to life. we need to make sure that we're telling stories from multiple points of view. >> dickerson: it used to be with historians that you had to wait 50 years. george w. bush used to say, i don't care, history will figure it out after i'm dead. where does that fit with the museum collectors?

>> i became a better historian when i began to talk to a living community. it made me realize if we collected things today and talked to the community, there is a richness that that has, there are documents and facts that that has. so while i think there is something very powerful about having distance, i think it is also important to make sure that you have the stuff, you've collected the oral interviews that somebody could then use 50 years from now with their own distance. but for me, it is about making sure that we collect today for tomorrow. >> dickerson: has something changed about collection? because we now have in our hands in these smartphones that are turning us all into curators and collectors, i think particularly, of course, of george floyd, the video of that, how did that chap shape and change the job of the museum? >> it makes you realize

there are a lot of historians out there. a lot of people who can capture images and help us think about things in different ways. i think this new technology has challenged us to be more flexible and nimble, but it also allowed us to have more interaction with a variety of communities because they're not thinking about how this is going to be written in 50 years. they're thinking about what happened right that moment. it is powerful to have that. >> dickerson: secretary bunch, thank you so much. you can watch our full interview with secretary bunch on facethenation.com. we'll be right back.

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>> dickerson: that's it for us today. happy father's day to all of the fathers and the grateful children making them dinner. we're seal see you next week.

(energetic music plays) - get ready to travel across the country for the future stars in the sports world. we'll travel to california to see how some football prospects are getting some work in despite the pandemic. we'll also hear from an award-winning football player in dallas. the recruiting trail will stop in georgia to meet one of the best girl's basketball prospects in america, and boston celtics guard marcus smart is the subject of this week's journey to greatness. those stories and more are coming up next. (upbeat music plays)