good morning, welcome back to mosaic. we're revisiting science and religion topic with a good friend on this september sunday dr. robert russell the natural sciences located part of the graduate union in berkeley. >> thanks for inviting e many. >> science and religion. let's talk about it. founded a little center for study 30 years later seems to be going right along.

>> it's doing great. the natural sciences ctn 30 years this year. in the beginning i was raised in the church did a dissipation in physics. i went to seminary and found they weren't talking there either. it became this is my calling. so i became a profess forof theology and science and have had dozens of great students and we begin to have a worldwide impact through major grants. >> so you sit down 30 years ago and you get religious types around the table and some of them are theologians and scientists. what are the questions you start with. >> pretty straightforward. in an age when science and religion are seen as separate or in conflict, what's an alternative. >> the new way was the dialogue through mutual respect and sense

that there's value added. scientists and pastors can benefit. the questions are pretty straightforward. how can god act in a world governed by laws of nature and what is humanity about. how did we come here through evolution and what makes us unique in god's image and what's our role in the world. how much are we shaped by inheritance. how much is left for human freedom and moral responsibility and how do we understand the future. what is the purpose of this whole thing. we have a great tradition of the res recollection of christ. how do we understand that in the light of science, koz molg and the open universe. yeah, so 30 years you have been at that. and do you remember at the very start how did the people begin

to talk with one another at the table? was awkward. very hard because maybe you used the word cause in physics and theology but it means a different thing. if you say good caused this event in my life. do you mean like a force? of course not. but in physics you have forces so it's really mistermed and using the same word in the both sides. took a long tomb to begin a vocabulary and common language where you can talk about science and theology and bring them together. it was a struggle but once you get people of good will together and they begin to bear on these questions a lot of exciting results arise. >> who was in the initial conversation? >> well, ian barber really from carlton college is the genius, the pioneer who began this whole field in the 50s and 60s and i had gone to carlson and worked with him with ordained work in

the chapel there and used his work as a bridge. he was able to make those connections and say okay, here's what theological language means in a wider contexted used in philosophy and history and how it connects to science. his work has always been a bridge building work for the center and in fact, now we have a chair named after him. to thank him and honor his work. but there were a number of others. my own students lots of great people and lots of events conferences and doctoral courses that takes a lot of work. >> i believe that. we're talking with dr. bob russell the founding director for the center of natural sciences in berkeley. good friend and when he comes back, we'll talk more about science and religion and questions that may interest you.

. one of the great resources in san francisco bay area the center for theology and natural sciences, lots of places in the country people still think of religion and science as knocking heads. but not so by dr. bob russell of ctns leading in the discussions in the interaction between science and religion and how they can be compatible and think together 30 years. you have a celebration coming up

quickly. >> we do. on the 14th we're going to have a book launch from my new book, time and eternity. >> a modest title. we'll get back to that. and for the 30-year kick off of celebrations celebrating ten years of our journal with a picture of the golden gate bridge on the cover signifying this bridge of two worlds. keeping them separate and respecting their differences but finding commerce. >> super. let's get your website out there. ctns.org. >> that's it. with the www up front. >> okay and the celebration this coming friday. >> right, the 14th. >> do people want to drop in. >> 2:30 to 4:30 come on by. we're an affiliate of the graduate union and i created

this because of its incredible intellectual spiritual environment. >> it's seminaries put together, a great resource. >> that's right and the programs in jewish studies and muslim and buddhist studies. great interreligious as well as an environment for conversation that is are really huge. >> just on the side have you been able to involve and invite buddhists and jewish community into this. >> absolutely. and we'll look towards the future the role of science will become more important. and that's an exciting piece. so if you get someone who is jewish and muslim and someone who is buddhist and someone who is like yourself protestant and sit down together and what is happening? what is the state of the dialogue? >> well, to what extent are

jewish christians and muslims concerned or excited about the big bang universe began 13.7 billion years ago in which a moment you can't go behind. is that significant? spiritually significant and does it increase your wonder and a of a god who would make a universe out of nothing or is that just not really important to you? i think people differ on that but it's a good conversation. all three of these faiths are mono theistic and we believe in the same god. it's interesting to see differences in protestant and roman catholic and jewish orthodox liberal jewish perspectives on questions like science. beginning of time. what do you think about that. yeah. or the sheer existence of the universe. the fact that there's anything and not nothing, is that the basis for a profound spirituality and sense of the

mystery of nature and its needen be and therefore there must be a source of it who is being is necessary and that's what christians and yous and muslims have thought philosophically about god. it's a necessary cause so we're here. >> and so i'll be interested to see how the buddhists are getting involved in this. if it's all an illusion but i would think involving the southern baptists and evangelical christians would be a great challenge. >> it would because the dividing line isn't so much the religion. it's whether or not you're a fundamentallyist and how you read scripture. is it literal and if you take it literally you have problems whether you're a jew, christian or muslim. if you do biblical scholarship around the text you can see the

genesis one story is a rediscovery of faith. you can talk about the universe in six or seven days. >> so one of the first things if someone is watching there and wants to get involved with these dialogues to realize if i understand what you're saying that you go back to your sacred text and you begin to read them in a different way and you are lifting up genesis as compatible even theological description that is not out of line with the science. >> exactly. augustine said that the bible doesn't teach how the he vans go. by the bobof gesistuo toaven. loan yan koz molg and we don't take that serious. >> just give us a pinnacle of it. >> the days of creation and the

same creator by god's divine word. you take that view ouft context, put it into big bang evolution and these are the ways god creates. the evolution is how god creates life and complexity. big bang points to aing beginning of all things and therefore a god who in the beginning created heaven and earth. so in fact you're retreating and celebrating the faith that we have had for 2,000 years but you're using contemporary culture to express it which is always the call of christians. they hd since peter and paul discussed it. >> dr. russell is giving us we talk about science and religion coming together. let's go back to your book for a moment. you said it took a long time. how long does it take to write a book? >> well, that was 12 years but

i've had a day job. title again time in eternity. publisher notre dame press. >> and what do you say walk us into the book. >> basically a question of what we have as our own experience of time. you think about the past and you have hopes about the future and how does that relate to god's trinity? is god timeless or not and according to many contemporary theologians our memory of the past is now participation in god's eternity. so eternity is god taking up our life whole clause reseeming it and giving it eternal meeting so it's time in eternity. >> okay.

so the future is now? >> well the future is the future buttsre we'll be right back. l and as u please. we'll be right back.

welcome back. this september morning we're talking with dr. bob res sell

the founding director for natural sciences basically we are trying to say here in the world that bob is bringing us into that science and religion are not an thet cal, sometimes they run parallel and there's a lot of room to get involved in the dialogue with them each. in my experience most recently in american southwest with evan jell ka cals science doesn't have anything to say to religion and the scientists in berkeley don't want to talk to presbyterian clergy so it's parallel tracks. again, what is the dialogue and how do you get people talking together all of that approach and what are you hopeful about? >> that's a great question. one of our programs we got a grant you can imagine from the national institute of health

about the human gee gnome project. to find cures. >> how many genes do we have? >> 300,000. >> so any case this project was to look at the theological implications of the project and it's a good example saying it's not just ethical questions. but when people say well, god created me this is my body and yet, my own cells and genes are producing a disease that could kill me. where is god in all of that? does god love and work with me and through those diseases. how do i understand the devine intimacy. these are spiritual questions

that go beyond the ethical questions whether you inform the family and employer and different issues. the feedback to the scientists would be again i'm using this model of a bridge traffic going both ways between science. maybe there's interesting questions that citizens could ask if theology makes sense about god being eternal and present to us and time being really important to divine life. in this book time and eternity, get it now. in this book, i actual lu have suggestions for the kinds of questions and physics research that could come out of this more complex view of time that christians and like you and i share. coming from the newcr into the h the res recollection of christ that time is more complicated than day by day sequence and the fact that a lot of research does suggest time branchs and it can go backwards. lots of interesting hints that in fact there are things that

would be of interest to the scientists from theological conversations. if they want to. no mandate but it might be interesting especially for scientists like myself with a foot in both sides and are thinking about these questions. >> so koz molg is from the christian standpoint of what's going on in the universe, these ideas of physics and discoveries of time change our understanding of the nature of god? >> they could. they might enhance it. all of our understanding is just written in human language. all viable up for grabs all though our central faith convictions the res recollection of jesus those aren't up for grabs but the way we talkbo them might be. >> they sort of are. but there's a balance between what is central and how we explore the way we talk about

it. >> theology is the second order study of the language used in church and faith. thy will be done. does that mean that god makes a difference in the world. if science portrays the world as closed but god created us so why would god want to break it? if you think the nature is open that natural causes don't determine everything that happens in nature and you and si really are free morally responsible agencies god may act in that way to the openness of nature without having to break the natural laws so i call this nonintervention divine action. >> this is really new stuff. the point this dialogue which you have been one of the leaders in as you look at the center now and a couple more questions that excite you and excite your

colleagues and people who participated, there's some very heavy questions about stem cell issues and human nature being predisposed by genetics and how you should handle that. should you at herb human genes and in some ways recognize limitations on freedom and human experience? >> well, it's a discussion if you have a gene and you can look at it and know that's predisposed to some sort of disease. so you're talking part of the discussion is do you have ethically can you go in and change something in that? >> well, i think the broader question is how does science inform the ethical landscape? and the theological landscape under it. we can't think about human nature and experience without

bringing into the account that the discoveries and all the work in genetics is being done in the biological fields. but at the same time christians and muslims have their systems and they ethically as a responsible person. so our center doesn't take a position ethically on the issues but simply tries to bring the conversation into dialogue with the sciences and ways that otherwise would have done. when i went to seminary 34 years ago, these conversations weren't happening. science wasn't part of the picture. you read carl barter or anybody else and you can't find science whether it's physics or koz molg or evolution. you simply don't find that in the system. now y do. >> so you have doctoral students coming up and what are some of the passionate questions that bring out the passion for them, not the ones you started with

but the ones saying it. >> well, one very passionate question is what does it mean to be created in the image of god. you have to ask is that about characteristics that humans share or pure lu a define gift? our capacity for rationality and reason and our capacitity for morality and empathy or about our capacity for envisioning the future, our culture. of the four or five species that were around 100,000 years ago they all had them. not just us. >> reasoning and intellect. >> yes. and so why are we here and why are they here? >> yeah exactly. >> so you can debate it how long ago they were here but the point is when we say sapien, we're in the image of god why weren't they? a really important question

a tiger and elephant. >> yeah, yeah how far back do you want to push it. >> a doctoral student who is a catholic ey can usehe mr image gnition as a test for capacity for revelation and communication. you need a sense of self-to be able to receive god's love and revelation. >> got to know it's me in the mirror. that's a key capacity needed and dolphins and whales share that and dogs don't, should we be radical and say there's something really salecs and then to god and then once you say that they're profound questions about how you treat them. >> he left out the image of god looking like us. natural science stay with us

we'll be back to wrap up.

center for theology we have been talking this half hour about human genes and the big bang and the image of god in creatures. ctns.org celebrating its 30th year in the bay area in dialogue and religion. bob russell, where did you grow up? >> grew up in la and came to stanford. went to seminary and met my wife charlotte. >> she's in the studio. >> she is a pastor at first congress church in berkeley and then did a phd came back here in 81 and 82 and began teaching in the g-2 so that's where i'm a

professor. >> what do you like to do when you're not teaching or reading or writing? >> when is that? >> okay, that's what i thought. >> notre dame press, new book. name again? >> time in eternity. >> if you want to get in touch you have a journal tell us about that. >> we do. this is a mep ship organization. you can go online and sign up as a member. we have members worldwide and you get our referee journal online and in print called theology of science not surprisingly. picture of the golden gate >> e mattic and publiforums durp conference people can sign up for. a lot of stuff going especially this fall. >> great resource for the bay area. thanks to dr. robert russell for being in the studio.

we'll be back next month for john swisher and myself if you think that science and religion are an thet cal and not really true, find a way to get involved, i'm hugh burrows see you again for mosaic next month. watch cbs in bay area with the kpix 5 news app.

live from the cbs b

studios, this is kpix5 news. today is the day that it starts to feel better, although were not out of the heat with just yet. i will show you the difference coming up. what is being done to make sure that you can keep the lights on in your air conditioners running. a deadly shooting in east oakland. it happened just hours after a stop the violence rally. we begin with the live look across the bay area. triple digit temperatures cooked parts of the bay area yesterday. let's take a look