captioning sponsored by cbs >> dickerson: i'm joke johndickerson in washington. this week on "face the nation." , as the delta variant runs, tempers flare. the delta's southern swing appears to be the peaking. america's anger is spreading, too. >> we will not comply! >> dickerson: this time there is an alarming rise in cases among those who don't even have a choice when it comes to getting a vaccine: kidsment. kids.>> i don't think the virus is targeting kids, necessarily, i think there is a firestorm under way and kids are getting swept up in it.

>> dickerson: the government is considering limiting federal money that goes to states unless they improve their vaccination rates. >> biden: i say to these governors, please help. if you're not going to help, please get out of the way of people trying to do the right thing. >> dickerson: florida republican governor ron desantis is threatening to withhold some funding to those school systems who do require masks. >> if you're trying to deny kids a proper in-person education, i'm going to stand in you're way. >> dickerson: we'll talk with miguel cardona about the challenges facing the school systems. and we'll ask alberto carvalho how his district plans to handle the governor's threat. and we'll talk with arkansas republican governor asa hutchinson, who says he now regrets signing a law banning state mask mandates, and

is confronting vaccine hesitation head on. and we'll check in with former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. plus, we'll preview cbs this morning and the albany time's union interview with brittany camesso. she is speaking for the first time about why she filed a criminal sexual harassment complaint against new york governor andrew cuomo. >> what he did to me is a crime. >> dickerson: plus, we'll sit down with author amanda ripley, and her new book explores how we can find out w our way back to roductive conversations. it is all coming up on "face the nation." ♪ >> dickerson: good morning, and welcome to "face the nation." we thought we were done with that feeling in our fight against covid-19

that one step forward could be followed by two steps back. but we're not done. the u.s. is now reporting an average of 100,000 new cases a day, up from 15,000 a day just a bl health officials expect that number to go a lot higher before it begins to drop. what is different, though, is that during this time of backslide, there is something we could only hope for during previous ones: a vaccine. but 100 million americans who are eligible for the vaccine have not gotten it. we begin with mark strassmann in georgia. >> reporter: cajun country versus covid, it is not a fair fight. lose hlouisiana has one of the lowest vaccination rates. covid hospitalizations are hate times higher than they were eight weeks ago. >> people are younger and sicker, and we're intubating and losing

people that are my age and younger. >> reporter: in two weeks, 1% of louisiana's entire population has caught the virus. >> we have no reason to believe in our data that we have reached the peak or that we're coming down. we have more children sick with covid-19 than at any other time during the pandemic. >> reporter: across america, 71,000 kids tested positive in the last week of july. one in five new cases. as the delta variant stalks the unvaccinated of all ages. >> the level of sick visits that we've seen this summer, june, july, and now august, i've never seen in 20 years of practices here in houston. >> reporter: another negative: surging positivity rates. 20 states are over 10%. more alarming, idaho, oklahoma, and mississippi, over 40%. two states, texas and florida, make up nearly one-third of america's covid cases.

both governors oppose universal masking. >> we can either have a free society or we can have a biomedical security state. i can tell you florida is. >> we have it everywhere, in both is sides of unit. >> reporter: on friday, the state set a daily record, nearly 24,000 new cases. deaths have doubled. despite the run-away spread, covid's culture war is unrelenting. more schools opened this week; more parents will square off about protecting kids. >> you can't mask the kids. it is unconstitutional. it is child abuse, and everybody knows it. >> reporter: ain ante anti maskers. >> you have lost your minds. >> the only way to fight against it, we get the shot. >> reporter: urgency

drives vaccination compaigns, and right behind the delta variant variant lurks the lambda variant. a lot of companies have a policy, get it or get gone. here in georgia, the number of new cases is at its highest level before the vaccine was made available. hundreds of kids, and they tested positive during the first week of school. john? >> dickerson: mark strassmann in atlanta, thank you. we go to the arkansas governor, ag asa hutchinson. >> gordon: good to be here. >> dickerson: we want to go to the issue of masks, because in schools, those under 12 can't get vaccinated. you signed a bill that was against mask mandates, and you changed your position,

why? >> facts change, and leaders have to adjust to the new facts and the reality of what you have to deal with. whenever i signed that law, the cases were low, and we were hoping that the whole thing was gone, but it roared back with the delta variant. we are pushing the vaccines out, but those under 12 cannot get vaccinated in the schools. so i realized we needed to have more options to our local school districts to protect those children. so i asked the legislature to redo the law that prohibited those requirements or those options for the school districts to protect the children. and so it was an error to sign that law. i admit that. thank goodness because if the legislature did not act this week, which they didn't, the court stepped in and held that as unconstitutional, and now we have that local flexibility for schools to make their decision to protect the children based

upon the unique circumstances of their district. >> dickerson: when you say facts changed, did you see something in the last few weeks, particularly with respect to those under 12, who are in hospitals, who are getting covid -- did you see and learn more about the way in which the delta variant is affecting that specific part of your community? >> governor: we have, and part of it is that the delta variant is so transmissible that it affects every population. the higher age group populations have been vaccinated, so we're seeing 40-year-olds in the hospital and on vents. and then it goes down. and while the children are less susceptible to it and have less risk, still, a small number of children find themselves in the hospital. we've had over 24 24 in our children's hospital. we have had three

adolescents die -- they couldn't be vaccinated. i look at that and i say we've got to do everything we can to protect those children. everybody else can be vaccinated, and i'm pushing those vaccinations. we don't need other stringent measures there because the vaccine is their solution. but for those under 12, we want them to go to school and we need to have that flexibility because they do have some risk. >> dickerson: quickly about the marion school district, i think there are about 900 students and teachers in quarantine. do you think that won't have happened if the school district that the freedom of local control and the ability to have a mask mandate in that school district? >> governor: well, if we would have had more vaccines out, those numbers would have been less. but it illustrates the point that if we're geg to hgoingto have a successful school district, school districts like marion need to have that option to require masks for those

lower grades or make the decision that is suitable for their community. ordinarily you have about 2.5 contacts from one exposure that has to be quarantined. but in a school environment, it was more like 18 to 1. that's why we had so many that were quarantined. you can't have a successful school year with that kind of exposure in the school. so vaccines, as well as flexibility of the local school district, would be the key in my judgment. >> dickerson: the last time you were on the program, arkansas was 46th in the nation in terms of first vaccinations. it has now risen to 38 in the nation, so it has gotten better. 60% of our citizens have gotten at least one shot. what accounts for that improvement? >> governor: well, two things: we did start our community conversations, have are townhalls, which i've been to over 12 cities, and those honest conversations, from skeptics to trusted

advisors in the community, has spurred action to increase vaccination rates. more significantly, the risk factor is at play. people see the hospitalizations up, they see what happens to their neighbors, they're worried about it, and they're goin out and getting vaccinated. we want to engage our local communities, and hopefully we can be successful and increase our vaccination rate. that's the only way out of it. >> dickerson: last time you were on, you said if incentives don't work, reality will. and it seems to have kicked in. a new kaiser foundation poll has found that half of those unvaccinated say they're more worried about the vaccine than getting sick. when that comes up in your conversations, what do you say to people? >> governor: well, first of all, it is not what the government says. and i recognize that's not going to be the answer that is needed or is persuasive. but i will call on a local physician that they know,

that they know, that they trust in their community, and ask, what do you say about that? that trusted advisor is more persuasive and fact-oriented and helps to dispel the myths. the second thing that is important is: the f.d.a. has to act. we've had well over 100 million americans that are vaccinated. they're not going to come in now and say, well, that shouldn't have been approved. as dr. fauci says, they're dotting the eyes and causing the "t"s. we need that final approval. >> dickerson: do you think that there would be mandates after that approval happens? >> governor: not in arkansas. i don't support a vaccine mandate. we can do it through education. but i do expect that broader acceptance of the vaccine. i do expect that some employers and sensitive

industries will require vaccines. but you have to have the f.d.a. approval before that is more accepted. >> dickerson: when you've been going around the state and encountering your constituents, a lot ofbuyou made a stement this week where you said some politicians are playing to people's fears and not being compassionate. are we all in this together, based on your experience? >> governor: well, we're all in it in terms of trying to get through the pandemic. but we have to have leaders that will step up and say that's a myth, that's not supported, and y'all need to listen rationally to people. we can't just give in to the loudest voice, which is 15% of people who are not going to take the vaccine regardless, that believes in the conspiracy theories, that are totally irrational. and we have to have

leaders that are able to resist that loudest voice in the room and talk common sense, compass >> dickerson: finally, governor, as we go out the door, you served as chairman on the national goverac co-chairman was andrew cuomo. you said you're going to wait for that investigation to take place in new york. the investigation has taken place. a lot of people think he should step down. do you have a view? >> governor: well, the invetigation was very thorough. the allegations could not be more serious. no woman should have to go to the workplace and have to choose between a paycheck and being assaulted, particularly when it is in a public environment. so he either needs to resign in the face of this. certainly if criminal charges are filed, he should resign. it is a sad circumstance, but that was a very cred credible review, and the allegations are very serious, and that shoulded n acr

envinment. a prite >> dickerson: governor, thank you so much for being with us. >> governor: thank you. >> dickerson: in an exclusive interview for cbs this morning and the albany times union, national correspondent jericka duncan spoke to brittany camisso, who is going public for the first time since she was identify as executive assistant number one. in the new york attorney general's report against sexual harassment. she says she was groped and sexually harassed by the governor, and on friday filed a criminal complaint against him with the albany sheriff's office. she is one of 11 women ac cuev accusing the governor of sexual misconduct. cuomo denies the allegations and says he will not step down. >> why did you file that criminal complaint with the sheriff's office? >> it was the right thing to do. the governor needs to be

held accountable. >> just so he i'm clear again, being held accountable, to you, means seeing the governor charged with a crime? >> what he did to me was a crime. he broke the law. >> dickerson: you can see more of je her interview tomorrow morning. "face the nation" will be bake. stay with us. serena: it's my 3:10 no-exit-in-sight migraine medicine. it's ubrelvy. for anytime, anywhere migraine strikes, without worrying if it's too late, or where i am. one dose can quickly stop

my migraine in its tracks within two hours. unlike older medicines, ubrelvy is a pill that directly blocks cgrp protein, believed to be a cause of migraine. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. most common side effects were nausea and tiredness. serena: ask about ubrelvy. the anytime, anywhere migraine medicine. >> dickerson: it is back to school time across america, so we turn to education secretary miguel cardona. good morning, mr. secretary. the governors of texas and florida have enacted forbidding mandated masks. have you talked to them? >> we are ready. 50 million students across the country are ready to return to school. we owe it to our students to safely reopen schools,

to make sure they have the best opportunity for learning, which we know as educators is in-person. i have calls out to many governors, including governor asa hutchinson, which we just heard from. and i talked to governor abbott, and i talked to the commissioner in florida. we need to work together to make sure our schools are safe for all students and staff. >> dickerson: did you make any progress in those phone calls? >> what we're seeing across the country is we recognize the importance of vaccinations. the president put a charge on all of us: let's gut our pop-up vaccination centers set up in our schools. i think everybody across the country agrees on that. i think we need to do everything, including our mitigation strategies, to make sure our students are safe. the data is showing us in places where they're not, following those mitigation strategies, we're putting students at risk. >> dickerson: you said that governors in those states of texas and florida are letting

politics interfere. do you see no merit, though, to their argument that basically the school experience is impinged by wearing a mask? >> listen, i understand the fatigue of wearing masks. i don't like wearing masks. i know my own children don't want to wear masks. they are vaccinated, but we also understand that this is bigger than us. we're trying to keep infection rates low. and i think it is more dangerous for students to be home and have interrupted learning because of the decisions we're making. we're clearly at a fork in the road in this country: you're either going to help students be in school in-person and be safe, or the decisions you make will hurt students. while i understand the argument around not wanting to wear masks because we're fatigued, without questions student safety and staff safety come firrso you're argument, as i take it, is if you don't allow some

flexibility, if you don't have masks in schools, you'll see an eruption. there is a quarter of the country where there are these blockages on mask mandates. do you believe you could have schooling actually fully interrupted? >> i do believe that. the segment before, 18 students in a class had to be quarantined because masks weren't being used and perhaps they were in close contact. last year we spent a whole year trying to safely reopen schools. this year we have the benefit of the return to school roadmap that provides tips for families and for schools, the benefit of the american rescue plan, where res sources areresources are there o make sure our schools are safe. we know it works. we have seen it work. we have to follow the guidance from c.d.c. and let our education leaders lead. let's give them the opportunity to do what is right. >> dickerson: let me get your insight of the cost of this pandemic on

schooling. the "new york times" had an analysis they did that showed in 33states, 10,000 local public schools lost at least 20% of their kindergarteners. can you as set the gravity of that figure, and, secondly, what are we going to do about it? >> i saw that. my experience here in connecticut as we reopened schools, we saw that our kindergarten numbers were very low. half of the number of students that didn't return to school are 3-year-olds, 4-year-olds, and 5-year-olds. what that tells us is we must double down as educators to share with the families what we're doing to keep their children safe. as a parent, nothing is more important than the safety of my children. we know early childhood education is critically important to the success of our students. having our students come into the classroom where

they learn by doing, social and emotional skills, is critically important. it is our job now to help parents feel comfortable with what we're doing to keep their children safe. cablei ineasi the vaccination rates, asou particularly with teachers. what is your position on teachers mandatory vaccination -- mandatory vaccination among teachers in schools? >> we're promoting the week of action, where we're really getting the message across the country to get vaccinated when you're eligible. we're having pop-up clinics in schools. just tomorrow i'll be in kansas with the second gentleman promoting the vaccine efforts. i feel strongly if you're eligible to get vaccinated, get vaccinated. do your part to make sure your safe and we can reopen achools without interruption. our students have suffered enough. it is time for all of us

to do our parts. >> dickerson: the teachers union representative suggested that the teachers should get vaccinated -- how he that cause? ss the country, we're going to get farther if we work together. that's what we're seeing across the country, educators who have bent over backwards for our students last year. they're coming together to say, let's do our part. we know they are lining up to get vaccinated. 90% of the teachers across the country have gotten vaccinated. we're proud of that. we want our youth to get vaccinated. to those who are making policies that are preventing this, don't be the reason why schools are interrupted, why children can't go to extracurricular activities and games are canceled. we need to do our parts as leaders, like governor asa hutchinson is doing, to make sure their students

get safely back in school. >> dickerson: secretary cardona, thank you for being with us. we appreciate it. and we'll be right back with a lot more "face the nation." stay with us. you, getting on that flight? back off, uc! stelara® may increase your risk of infections, some serious, and cancer. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection... flu-like symptoms, sores, new skin growths, have had cancer, or if you need a vaccine. pres, a rare, potentially fatal brain condition, may be possible. some serious allergic reactions and lung inflammation can occur. lasting remission can start with stelara®. if you've been financially impacted by covid-19, janssen may be able to help. this is the gap, that opened up when everything shut down. ♪ but entrepreneurs never stopped. ♪

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♪ >> dickerson: welcome back to "face the nation." the miami-dade county public school systems is the third largest in the country. superintendent alberto carvalho joins us from miami. let me start with the governor, he signed an executive order banning mask mandates in schools. you have about 334,000 students. the governor threatened funding to your school system if there is a mask mandate. how are you weighing the governor's order and the health of your students? >> good morning, john. we have been a school system that has been guided by sence all along.

we navigated this awful pandemic with the experts. and we're not going to abdicate that position. it is sad that currently in america we see this rhetorical narrative that is deeply influenced by politics rather than medicine, and the wise advice of those who know best what is in the best interests of our students and the professionals who teach them. but, look, we are in a privileged position in miami-dade as we have time on our hands. most of the school systems in florida open tomorrow. we have two additional weeks to continue negotiate, as secretary cardona indicated, practical solutions that achieve tw things: number one, the appropriat protocols for the safe reopening of schools without compromising the health assurances for our students and teachers, while simultaneously

avoiding the punitive defunding strategies that could be a consequence of a defiance of the executive order or the emergency rules that were followed by the department of health and education. >> dickerson: when do you think you'll have to make the call? >> we hope to make the call immediately after our last meeting with the health task force that was convened by the school system over a year ago, which includes individuals like u.s. surgeon general, dr. wylie marty. these are experts in the field who have advised our school system and wille advicee miami-dade county public schools. >> dickerson: the governor says there is the science and alsay will be significantly affected by wearing masks. how do you, as someone who has been in education at the level you have -- how do you evaluate that

assessment about masks and students? >> i think it is a fair comment, that we should have a balanced set of protocols and safeguards that, number one, ensure the health and well-being from a pretext prete protectivd preventive impact on the part of students. i think we are poised to be able to do that with technology that we have in place, with much improved contact tracing protocols, much improved quarantine rules in place. we believe we can do this without in a deleterious way impacting the psychological mental well-being of students, but also while protecting the health and well-being in the school environment. look, i am one who i parental c. we have 75% of our students enrolled in

miami-dade. and we hope to bee negotiate a reo schools ocols that, number one, provide protection to our students with financial consequences, perhaps allowing some degree of parental opt-out provisions. >> dickerson: you, as i understand it, were a parte of a school district-wide campaign to talk to households where they were reluctant about coming back to school. you talked to 30 families, and got 23 to agree to come back. can you tell us what those conversations were like? >> absolutely, john. i think people across the country have been extremely concerned for a long time over the unfinished learning that we observed in every single state associated with the pandemic and the social isolation. we were able to, early on, based on early assessments, determined that there were

communities of students, particularly english-lening studen and po poverished students, and we identified those students. the parenttors: number one, work circumstances kept their kids at home, often older kids supervising younger kids, which was heartbreaking; and secondly, making decisions by the relative. we were able to return to the schoolhouse thousands of students who are absolutely better served in a physical environment with a caring professional in front of them rather than distance learning through virtual means. >> dickerson: you grew up in portugal in what you described as pretty dramatic poverty. as you look at what has been lost during the period of covid, can you give me your assessment of the poorest, who have

schooling as their root to possible opportunity in america -- what the damage has been in that community? >> we know, john, that the greatest qualli equalizer in our democratic country is the school system, where 90% of our children are educated. that is so true particularly when you reference children in poverty, which make of 75% of our students in miami-dade. we know that schools offer that ramp of opportunity, that ramp of hope, for these kids. that is why all of our arteriesefforts are geared towas welcoming every one of our children back into a physical in-person reality, with acceleration for full potential for all kids, with summer school opportunities that we built this year serving in ec sexcess of 75,000 schools, additional mental health

professionals to, quite frankly, provide a holistic approach that will address the unfinished learning that thousands of kids across america have experienced. and that's why i tell you, john, we ought to pay less attention to the loud voices that are often disconnected from reason and focus our attention on students, teachers, and healthy, protective environments, while allowing, at the same time, the mental and social and emotional protects for students, and some degree, obviously, of qualified parental choice. >> dickerson: superintendent, thank you so much for being with us. good luck with your decision. and we'll be right back with former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb. stay with us. your glucose levels. ♪ lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose.

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spread: why covid-19 crushed us and how we can defeat the next pandemic." good morning, dr. scott gottlieb. a harris poll showed for the first time in two months americans think that the pandemic is getting worse rather than getting better. what do you think? >> doctor: well, it is certainly getting worse. i think you'll start to see improvements particularly in the south. there is evidence that the rate of growth in the cases in the south is starting to decline. i think this week you may see some of the states that have been the outbreak states start to tip over, in terms of showing less cases on a daily basis. the epidemic is slowing in states like florida, arkansas, missouri, but cases are building in states like indiana, north carolina. i think the northern states are more impervious to the kind of spread we saw in the south, but they're not completely im perimpvious.

thals that the infection is going to start to collide with the opening of schools. we have seen that the schools can become sources of community transmission when you're deeg w dealing with more transmissible strains. and delta is far more transmissible. it creates a lot of risk that the spread in the northern states is going to start to collide with the opening of schools. >> dickerson: let's update our thinking about schools. your argument is that before you saw spread in schools, and now there is a more transmissible variant see you're likely to see more. governor desantis in florida said schools are, quote, "a low risk of transmission." is that low? >> doctor: schools aren't inherently safe. they can be made more safe if you take the proper steps. but we can't expect the same outcome with respect to the schools. we were largely able to control them with a

different set of behaviors. if we're going to change what we do, we're going to withdraw masks, we're not going to engage in tracing, we can expect a different result, especially with a more transmissible strain. i would enter the school year with a degree of caution and keep in place some of these measures and see how it goes, particularly in areas where there is higher prevalence. given the fact that we're dealing with a strain we don't fully understand. this strain is clearly more transmissible, it will be harder to control in a school setting. and kids are getting sick with it, we don't know if they're getting sick at a higher rate or we're just affecting a lot of kids. i don't know of a business that would put 30 people in a confined space without masks and keep them there for a whole day. yet that is what we'll be doing in some schools. >>t

humility and prune prudence, we talked a great deal about masks. what else should schools oi stay on top of this new variant in this time when kids are coming back? >> doctor: well, look, with respect to masks, fir of all, i would be looking at higher-quality masks. the utah governor recently announced he is making available to every school n-95 masks. and most governors will not be mandating masks, but they're leaving it up to local officials. i think that is the prudent step we should be did. and schools should be operating testing on a regular basis. there is a lot of federal money flowing into states to support testing regimes. some have done it quite well. california will be testing all students. they created their own lab. north carolina, maryland. in new york city, they're doing saliva testing on

all students with the help of mt. sinai, a medical facility i'm associated with. so a lot of states will be doing testing, but a lot won't. and the other thing is podinpodding, so you can track exposure. right now jerome adams pointed out that many schools require parents to report if their kids contract lice, but not covid. we need to turn that around. parents can be checking local prevalence, trying to get high-, quo-quality masks. and sending kids to school with masks, even if it is not required, and maybe doing home testing as well. and avoiding unnecessary congregate settings. if you can avoid activities done without masks indoors, for now

trying doing that. >> dickerson: let me ask you now for parents considering getting their kids vaccinated, over 12 years old, a lot of parents have expressed nervousness in that regard. what would your advice be to a parent who is weighing the decision to their child vaccinated? >> doctor: talk to your pediatrician. about 30% of children have been vaccinated in the 15 to 17 age group. now is the time if you're going to vaccinate your child, now is the time to do it. it isn't just a binary decision do i vaccinate or not vaccinate? there are different strategies. some doctors are telling parents maybe go with one dose for now, in lower risk kids. some doctors are spacing it apart. pediatricians are making judgment calls in how they

approach this. i think parents who are uncomfortable really should afford themselves the opportunity to take to their physician to see if they can address any concerns they may have. >> dickerson: the administration is now moving to your position on boosters, which is that it should be -- there should be boosters for the immunocompromised. we also think about nursing homes in this context. can you tell us, given that there is going to be boosters coming, will they come in time for delta? what is your sense of when somebody who needs a booster might actually be able to get it? >> doctor: the reporting is that the f.d.a. will make a decision on the immuimmunocompromised people soon. unfortunately, i think it will come too late for this delta wave. because the time you make that decision and you

start a booster campaign, you're talking about late october that you can start getting a sizeable number of people boosted. it takes time to get that set up and get people into the doctors' offices to get injections. and it will take a couple of weeks for the immunity to mature. it is something we should be thinking about now, not just people compromised, but people in nursing homes and people who are vulnerable. >> dickerson: dr. scott gottlieb, thank you, as always. we'll be back in a moment.

>> dickerson: from politics to policy, it seems a lot of debates these days have become filled with toxicity and outrage, to the point where we're no longer listening to each other. amanda ripley is the author of "high conflict: why we get trapped and how we can get out." she has some ideas on how we can transform dissention in this country. we're going to start with defining our terms. what does "high conflict" mean? >> high conflict can start small, but it becomes an all-consuming, us versus them feud that sort of takes on a life of its own. so it doesn't operate according to the normal

rules of conflict. any counter,tivething n high conflict usually will backfire, right? so it is important to understand in high conflict, we all make a lot of mistakes. we're making them right now, as you can see, in all kinds of ways, right? so in high conflict, people behave differently. we tend to get really certain of our own moral superiority. so the key thing to understand is that we have to do the counterintuitive thing and do it with great care. >> dickerson: the counterintuitive thing basically being more empathetic about the other side, just as your high conflict in instincts are telling you want to bury the other side? >> exactly. there are a few things you don't want to do that you're body is telling you to do. one of those ishumiliation: dont

humiliate your opponent. whether you intend to or not, humiliation is the nuclear bomb of the psychosis, and you will do yourself a great disservice. so calling names, that sort of thing. nelson mandela has a great quote where he says, "there is no one more dangerous than one who has been humiliated, even when you do so rightly." i love the end of that quote. also, you want to distance yourself, to the degree possible, to conflict entrepreneurs. these are people or pundits or platforms that potentially exploit conflict -- >> dickerson: so bad-faith actors? >> right. and right now we tend to amplify those voices, right, on social media and other places. if you can't distance yourself from the conflict feyou wanto try toour redirect their energy on something more constriv listening can think

of mask debates, vaccine debates, debates over things that are done and settled, like who won the last election. we know that president biden did, but there are debates about a fantasy world in which he didn't. so everything i just said probably infuriated some number of people. you studied the structural parts of this. give me a little more about how we unwind from those structural forces. >> so it turns out how we behave in political high conflict is not dist from diffet from how we behave in high conflict divorces or other kinds of high conflict. i followed people all over the world, if they were in conflict in guerrilla wars. it is not about the original cause of the dispute. what starts to happen in high conflict, we have a

lot of fights with the wrong people, and we don't have the fights we most need to have. vaccines, masks, etc., right, and then the thing rlly about, which is the understory of the conflict, which usually, not always, is about fear, hu, right? so those are the things you want to try to get to if you're going to make any progress so you can have the right fight. because the truth is, we need good conflict in this country. there are a lot of fights we need to have, but we need to have them in a way they don't destroy us. >> dickerson: the country was founded on the idea if we have good conflict, it will keep us from going into the streets and having actual fist-a-cuffs. >> you need to challenge each other and push each other. >> dickerson: in the tool kit of trying to avoid high conflict, the first thing to do is to think about what is this high conflict really about? >> exactly. >> dickerson: you're not talking about debate and

argument. you're talking about a new level, which is just -- so in that new level, you want to figure out what the debate is about and then what is next in the things i would try to practice? >> the other thing you want to do is resist the binary. resist the urge to divide the world cleanly into two camps. that is not possible. it is very tempting, but don't do it. you catch yourself doing it because what happens is we make a lot of mistakes, we miss big opportunities when we do that, right? so you cannot put 75 million people in this country, who all call themselves republicans or democrats in one bucket. that's is madness. try to speak to another identity outside of the conflict, as a new yorker, or californian or floridian or a parent. because you see in every high conflict, it is always kids who suffer the

worst. so speaking to people's alternate identities outside of the conflict sa powerful maneuver. >> dickerson: you spoke to academics who studied complexity, when people recognize the complexity of things, it helps them get out of their incts. is that correct? right. the mo>> the more you can amplify the real complexity of humans, the more people become open to information they didn't want to here. what you're trying to do is revive curiosity in a time of false simplicity. once you do that, you start to see people's whole expression changes. they start to say more nuanced things. they admit to more internal doubt and uncertainty. >> dickerson: amanda ripley, thank you so much. hopefully we'll get towards the solutions. and we'll be right back in a moment.

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>> dickerson: that's it for us today. and today also marks the end of my summer stint in margaret's chair. thanks to all of your viewers out there for your trust and to the extraordinary "face the nation" team who make this show what it is. margaret will be back from maternity leave soon, and i'll be back soon enough, just in a different chair. for "face the nation," i'm john dickerson. ♪ captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

♪ >> last week in tulsa, jose vitor leme rewrote the record books with the highest scored bull ride in pbr history. >> there it is! 97.75! the best ever! no score has been better in the history of the pbr! history was just made! [cheers and applause] >> this is, this is awesome many. it's hard to explain. the best days of my life of my career riding bulls. >> the race is on for the 2021 pbr world title. and and time i