>> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." we want to continue our conversation with senator ted cruz. senator, just before the break, the we were talking about the importance of standing up to some of the autocrats around the world. i would be remiss if i didn't ask you about the state of our own democracy. i know you have condemned the violence on january 6. but in that book "peril" bob woodward and robert costa r-79ed detailed conversations you had with the president, donald umt that time. on january 6 and that you knew there was no congressional authority to overturn the elecion. didn't indulging the doubters damage our democracy and our standing in the world? >> well, i haven't read that particular book, and i didn't

happen to have any conversations with president trump on january 6. >> brennan: didn't you talk to him as they detail-- they detail a number of conversations you had in the book with the president about challenging the election. >> i have no ea what that book says, but i did not have any conversations with him on january 6. >> brennan: or leading up to january 6? >> i had many conversations with him in days and weeks and months leading up to january 6. i talked to the president sometimes as often as once a week or once a day. but my point is simple: under the constitution, congress has a role and has responsibility when it comes to certifyinganbjn electoral commission to review the claims of voter fraud and to assess and make a determination to consider the evidence. and there's a strong historical precedent for that. you look at 1876 in the election of 1876 there was a contested

election. there were serious allegations of election fraud. and what congress did in 1876 is it appointed an electoral commission-- >> brennan: but you know that the people-- >> five members of the senate, five members of the house, five supreme court justices. >> brennan: you know what you're laying up on the as an intellectualized process here are not things that people chanting about mike pence were talking about that. >> i think the acts of violence on that day were horrific. if you commit an act of violence, if you assault a police officer, if you're violent against anyone, you should be prosecuted and go to jail. and that's what the law is. so i absolutely condemn acts o ol bu inspition fem. ss constitutional option, which i think would have been much better for our democracy because we right now have a substantial chunk of our country that has real doubts about the integrity of the election.

and if we had had a credible electoral commission do an emergency audit, it would have enhanced faith in democracy. but instead, democrats and a lot of the press decided to just engage in incendiary rhetoric, rather than acknowledge voter fraud is real. it is a problem. >> brennan: do you have i want-- >> and the allegations of voter fraud needed to be examined on the merits. >> brennan: senator, there is no evidence of fraud that would have really drawn the outcome of the election into doubt. you know that. i want to ask you about 2024, and a race-- >> voter fraud has been persistent from the very first election-- >> brennan: are you going to run for president in 2024? would you challenge president trump or are you endorsing him? >> look, i have no idea what's going to happen in 2024. donald trump is going to have to make a choice, first of all, whether he's going to run or not. i think if he chose to run, he would be very, very formidable. i can tell you that when i ran in 2016, we came incredibly close.

i came in second. there's a long history of runner-ups becoming the next nominee. and it was the most fun i've ever had in my life. but there's a lot of time between now and 2024. my focus right now is 2022, because i think next november is going to be a wave election, an awful lot like 2010 was. i think republicans are going to retake the house. they're going to retake the senate. and i am spending my time recruiting candidates, supporting candidates, and working to retire both nancy pelosi and chuck schumer from their leadership positions. because i think the damage being done to this country-- inflation, jobs being killed, open borders, weakness on foreign policy. >> brennan: yup. >> i think virginia, new jersey were foreshadowing for what's coming next year. >> brennan: all right, senator, sounds like a campaign slogan. we'll be right back.

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criminal justice system. mark strassmann reports from atlanta. >> reporter: kyle rittenhouse, not guilty, sparked protests from new york... >> all persons leave the area now. >> reporter: ...to portland, oregon, which police therea rio. but in the divided states of america, that verdict from wisconsin means both redemption... >> it's nice to know when individuals take a stand to defend themselves that the jury system in this country will recognize the right of self-defense. >> reporter: ...and repudiation. >> you can't tell me these institutions are not sick. you cannot tell me that these institutions are not tainted with racism. >> reporter: in the chaos of kenosha last august, rittenhouse, then 17, killed two men with his ar-15-style assault rifle. he claimed self-defense. rittenhouse drove in from illinois armed for battle. he knew outage already ran high. two days earlier, a white cop had shot a black man seven times

in the back. the officer was never charged. jacob blake remains paralyzed from the waist down. justin blake, his uncle, angry about the rittenhouse verdict. >> we knew he wasn't going to jail for life. but we thought he'd go to jail and get spanked a little bit for his actions. >> reporter: and he believes had rittenhouse been black... >> they would have had him on the ground eating dirt or shot him dead on sight. >> reporter: lots to unpack here. this country's ongoing moment of racial reckoning, vigilantism, and self-defense claims from armed people whoutat many see as america's two systems will of justice, separate and unequal. this murder trial of three men in brunswick, georgia, has all those issues. >> it was a... a life-or-death situation, and i'm going to have to stop him from doing this. so i shot. >> reporter: ahmaud arbery was jogging through a neighborhood. three white men suspected him of

burglary. they chased him, cornered him like a rat, one of them said later. in a confrontation, he initiated, travis mcmichael killed arbery with his shotgun. mcmichael also claimed self-defense, often tough cases for prosecutors. they grilled him on the stand. how was arbery a threat? >> didn't pull out any guns. >> no, ma'am. >> didn't pull out any knife. >> no, ma'am. >> he hasn't said one word to you. >> he has not. >> he has not threatened you in any way, verbally or physically. >> no, ma'am. >> reporter: the arbery case has echoes of trayvon martin nine years earlier. both times, wanna-be cops misidentified burglary suspects, young black men shot dead. gunman claims self-defense. no one is arrested for weeks. a jury later found george zimmerman, martin's killer, not guilty of murder. in that georgia case, closing arguments will begin tomorrow. only one black juror will hear

them. >> this court has found there appears to be intentional el. >> reporter: that verdict, whatever it is, will fuel america's clashing definitions of justice and fairness. >> brennan: that was mark strassmann reporting. we go now to the headline of the n.a.a.c.p., derrick johnson, who joins us from jackson, mississippi. good morning to you, sir. >> good morning. >> brennan: so the jury accepted kyle rittenhouse's explanation that he was acting in self-defense. president biden said, you know, this was disappointing in some ways, but the jury system works, and we have to abide by it. you say the verdict itself was dangerous. >> you know, it's hard for african americans to reconcile what we witnessed in that trial. we have far too many individuals sitting in jail for crimes they didn't commit or overcharge forward crimes that were committed. and here you have a 17-year-old

who illegally purchased a gun, traveled across state lines to protect property that was not s fonehd notinvitem,d h put hime rhetoric that he seen on social media platforms soap it's hard to reconcile the verdict with the experience many african americans have faced over several decades. so this trial for us is a warning shot that vigilante justice is allowed in this country, or in particular communities. >> brennan: kyle rittenhouse, asun, has become this sort of icon for some within the conservative movement. he was used back-- during the campaign by the-- by the then-biden campaign team in a campaign video that positioned him as a wheupremacist. his mother said that was defamatory to him. the bottom line is this is being plilt sized.

and i'm wondering what you think the impact of that is. >> well, the current political environment has allowed for this type of behavior. the prior administration opened the door, and many individuals who operate under the white supremacy have run through the door, whether charlottesville or the killings in pittsburgh at the synagogue, or in louisville. and unfortunately, until we have mature politicians willing to stand up, regardless of political affiliations, and address the questions of mob violence, vigilantism, but more importantly, the underlying issue of race in this country, something we have never truly addressed. >> brennan: but there is no evidence of him being a white supremacist himself, correct? >> well, it's not about the evidence of him being a white supremacist. it is about the position that individuals like him find themselves in where they think they have to go and protect property because of peaceful

protest in some cases of black lives matter. black lives matter is a values proposition. it's not an organization, and it is not about a hash tag. it's a value proposition that the lives of african americans have been diminished, and our lives matter. and when you have scenarios like what took place in wisconsin that caused people to stand up with for this police officer, who paralyzed another innocent individual, you have to begin to ask-- we have to ask ourselves the question: do we value the lives of not only african americans, but everyone? and what he did was take up the mantle because the political climate allowed for him to do that. we had a white supremacist in the white house, and it opened the door to this floodgate of vigilante violence. and that's the real questn here. >> b: i nt to ask you you, with congressman bennie thompson, are suing the

former president and rudy giuliani, along with some extremist groups, alleging they violated the ku klux klan act by conspiring with white supremacists to incite the violence at the capitol on january 6. as you watch what's happening in charlottesville, how do you think that that trial fit has any connection at all, will influence your case? >> understanding the act was created after the civil war had ended, and you had members of congress pursuing a course to carry out their sworn duty. and any time you have a disruption for members of congress from carrying out their sworn duty, that's a disruption and a violation of the act. and that's what we sued on. congressman thompson had to step downals the lead plaintiff. barb radio lee is now the lead plaintiff. but when you witness what took place on january 6, is falls

squarely on what the framers of the act intended, that members of congress-- senate or house members -- should not be under anatfin violce, that woud ent duty.--wioheer >> banto quickly ask you about the current president. his approval rating among black voters has dipped. 65% approve, 35 purpose disapprove, according to our latest polling. do you believe president biden is living up to the promises he made to black voters? >> still more work to do. i mean, he delivered on many promises. but the key thing for many of my members and people i talk to is voting right protection. and it's a timatto do heir job,g right protections. the house has done their job. the senate must do their job. the president must sign the bill. and i also believe as we progress in this administration, that will be the true tell.

we are within a year of the administration. a lot of has been accomplished. there's still so much work to be done. but the number-one issue is voting right protections for african american and for our democracy. >> brennan: we'll watch those issues. thank you, mr. jawnlson, for your time. don't go away.

>> brennan: here in the u.s., the number of covid-19 cases continues to increase, up 20% in the last two weeks. but the situation is far worse in parts of europe. cbs news senior foreign correspondent charlie d'agata reports from poland. >> reporter: the streets were ablaze as rioting erupted overnight in the netherlandss in a backlash against strict new covid rules. a night after police fired on a demonstration in scenes the mayor called "an orgy of violence." tens of thousands protested in austria, too, after the government there not only announced a new lockdown starting tomorrow, but ordered that vaccines would be expulsery by february 1s e of the lowest vaccination rates in europe and one of the highest

daily infection rates, per capita, five times worse than the united states. europe has been racking up record numbers this week, a surge so worrying, the world health organization warns up to half a million more covid deaths by the spring. in germany, they're pulling down christmas markets and considering a countrywide lockdown, too. poland also recording the highest infection rates since april. in this ward, the only empty bed we found had been occupied by a woman whoa who just died. europeans thought the darkest day of this nightmare pandemic were behind them. yet, the covid intensive care units are filling up once more. the difference is last time, getting a vaccine was not an option. how many patients will survive? how many will die? >> generally, about-- i don't know, about 20% will survive.

>> reporter: 20% survive. >> yes. >> reporter: none of them have been vaccinated. >> yes. >> reporter: none. >> none. >> reporter: a spo person said the numbers speak for themselves. >> 95 persons who are treated in intensive care are unvaccinated, and 99 person who die is unvaccinated. >> reporter: with the worst of the winter months ahead, health officials now face some tough decisions: mandatory lockdowns, compulsory vaccinations, or follow austria's lead and do both. margaret. >> brennan: charlie d'agata, thank you. we go now to former f.d.a. commissioner dr. scott gottlieb, who is on the board of pfizer. good morning to you. >> good morning. >> brennan: so, 62 million americans who are eligible to be vaccinated, still aren't. and according to the c.d.c., 85% of the counties in this country are in substantial or high transmission. so you've already predicted a post-thanksgiving spike. is it too early in places like

washington, d.c., to lift mask requirements? >> look, i think local officials need to base the rules on what the local prevalence is. right now, in some parts of the country the prevalence is very low. when you look at the south, the southeast, the tristate region and the mid-atlantic region, you have to be mindful if we lift the restrictions we may enimthe. we had about 77,000 people hospitalized. so we're in a better circumstance, but we're probably not as good as we should be, given all the tools we have, between the vaccines and the highly effective drugging and also how much infection we've had in this country and how much immunity is already in place. >> brennan: last sunday, you told us it was one of the biggest missed opportunities for the administration it not have rolled out boosters and made them eligible for all early or. the c.d.c. now has said all adults may get a booster shot

and that those over age 50 should get a booster. can you interpret that language for us? >> well, look, i think the reluctant nature by which c.d.c. has been stepping into this debate reflects a broader ambivalence, or a broader debate happening in the pelg community about whether the vaccine should be used as tools to protect people from bad outcomes from covid or cl they should be used as tools to try to end the pandemic and control transmission. if you're recommending boosters for people 50 at over at this point, you're recommending a booster to improve their immunity, protect them from a bad covid outcome, because we see clear evidence of declining protection from the vaccines after six months, and that person is now at increased risk of having a severe case of covid and having a bad outndoerheir 20s, in their teens, even 30s, there is a perception you're recommending booster not only to protect the individual, because they probably have pretty good protection from the first two doses and they were at

lower risk anyway, but you're recommending the booster as a tool to make them lelsz likely to pass on the virus. >> brennan: you have already seen governors in conew xico sas is fully vaccinated. should the c.d.c. say you need a booster to be considered fully vaccinated? >> i think at some point they're going to, but not this year. i think eventually, this will be considered a three-dose vaccine. but i would be hard pressed to believe c.d.c. is going to make that recommendation any time soon. in part because of this debate about whether or not younger people who are at less risk should be receiving that third dose. in states where governors are looking to do this-- and i think some local communities will do it, some businesses are probably going to do it quite soon-- i think in cases where entities are going to mandate three doses for people who are six months up on the from the second dose, they're doing that because they're using the vaccine as a way to control transmission and try to end this pandemic. and, you know, there are people in the public health community who don't think that that's an inappropriate way to use the vaccine. but this is a debate that's going on right now in the public

health community. and c.d.c. sort of's stuttering approach to how they embraced boosters is reflective of that debate. >> brennan: the labor department's osha division said it's suspending enforcement of that biden requirement to test or vaccinate business employees. we also saw disney halt vaccine requirements in the state of florida after the governor there said businesses can't carry out that kind of mandate. in both cases, you have the government telling businesses what to do. if you're a business owner, if you're an employee, i mean, what should you be doing right now? >> well, look, i think it's not inappropriate for businesses to mandate vaccines, and certain businesses absolutely should be mandating vaccinations in the workplaces-- healthcare settings, settings where you can't protect employees with other tools other than to make sure you can keep upon the infection out of that setting, so settings where you have lots of employees working closely together, it's hard to work in a masked environment in

perpetuitiy. this is the unfortunate consequence of government officials getting into these private decisions. if we ultimately left the decision to mandate vaccines up to states, local districts, private business, i don't think you would see this be a political fight at a national level. now it's become a political fight at a national level, unfortunately, and you're going to see some governors try to position themselves on this issue, like you have seen in florida. and you're going to see the federal government, the biden administration, fighting those states and fighting to implement these osha rules. the end result is i think businesses that were going to move forward on mandates have moved forward. and businesses that are rerelubtant to do it are probably going to wait in place and see what happens with the outcome of the litigation involving osha. by the time the lawsuits ends up getting involved, probably we'll be through the surge we're seeing right now, the delta surge and maybe on the back end of the pandemic here. >> brennan: for people, it leaves a lot of confusion with them about what they can be expected to do and what they can expect of their coworkers when they walk into the office.

dr. gottlieb, more to talk with you as always but we have to leave it there today. thank you for your time and have a good thanksgiving. we'll be back in a moment. of studying the stars. and grows into a new career as an astrophysicist. it starts with an engineer's desire to start over. and grows into an award-winning restaurant that creates local jobs. they learned how on youtube. what will you learn? this is the planning effect from fidelity. ben isn't worried about retirement because his plan is backed by the team at fidelity. a group of investment professionals manages ben's ira for him, analyzing market conditions and helping him stay on target. he gets one-on-one coaching when he wants some advice, and can adjust his plan whenever he needs to. and now he's so prepared for retirement, ben is feeling totally zen.

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>> brennan: that's it for us today. we want to wish you and your families a happy and healthy thanksgiving. and we will see you next sunday with a big interview with dr. anthony fauci. upon until then, for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan. captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by cess.wgbh.org group at wgbh

good evening. thank you for joining us. we begin with breaking news. two of the 17 americans and canadians seized in haiti be criminal gang have been released. the ministry the group that sponsored the hostages said this in part. we are able to report that the two hostages who were released are safe and good spirit. and being cared for. we cannot provide or confirm the names of the released. the reasons for their release, where they are from. are the current location.