♪ hello. and on behalf of the archdiocese of san francisco, welcome to "mosaic." you'll be watching this program shortly after easter. now, easter is a feast that many people enjoy, whether they observe it in a religious way or not. we have easter eggs, easter candies, easter baskets, easter parades. in easter, spring has sprung, the world is green, the season is bright. but, of course at the heart of easter is a deep and dark drama with a glorious ending. first is the condemnation and

execution of jesus of nazareth and then his resurrection from the dead. now, these are central christian teachings and have been so from the beginning. but what are we to think of the resurrection? why do we believe in it? is it difficult to come to that belief? and what is it like to live in that belief? now, here with us today to discuss the resurrection is a scholar, teacher, and priest, father john boetscher. after this brief break, please rejoin father boetscher and me to delve more deeply into the resurrection of christ.

♪ hello and welcome to "mosaic." with me today is father john boetscher. i just learned how to pronounce it. thank you for joining us. father boetscher has a fantastic resume. you have more abbreviations after your name than most people. i'm going to tell what they are. he's not only a bibleicist and i'm seeing an ma in biblical studies and then sacred theology

from pontifical university in rome and a doctor of sacred theology from the same institution. >> yeah. >> and you've -- you began, it says here, with a ba in physics at cal and worked in the semiconductor industry in palo alto. and i think that was the time when you experienced a conversion to catholicism. can you tell us about that? >> yeah, actually, started in the last year of my studies at berkeley. and i studied physics there with an idea toward applied physics, working in semiconductors and that sort of thing. i had statistics classes and so on about the interpretation of data and i went on a hitchhiking trip and i had been raised catholic and then i drifted off and six years later i went out hitchhiking out of berkeley, like i did for recreation, just put up my thumb and three people

on that brief hitchhiking trip all talked to me about jesus christ. and i believe there is a god out there somewhere, maybe like the force, you know, like the buddhist cosmic force, but i thought my mind, like, this is statistically significant. nobody in six years, and then in 24 hours three. so i thought i better, like, go back over this. there may be something in this for me, so i went back and out of curiosity read the bible and looked for this person the last -- the first person that they talked about, john, the apostle, he was talking about the apocalypse, but i didn't connect that except through john and i started reading the gospel of john. it started out with a poetic introduction in the beginning, words with god, god was the word. i thought this is like the doubted ching, the eastern poetry i've been raeading about.

i got absorbed in the story and that drew me into the person of christ, reading it for my own inspiration. that sunk in and carried through into after graduation. i just came to conviction, this is a person unique in human history. >> and so relation with jesus and also with the church. you went back to liturgies at that point? >> after three, four months of just reading the bible three, two, three, four times a day and praying, i just felt god saying go back to church. and i said, which one. i wasn't necessarily tasked to the catholic church at that point. he brought me back to remember the exact morning i left, and in saratoga, california, sacred heart parish. i looked around and said i'm not experiencing god here. i'll be back when i do. he said, remember what you said? and i go, yes. i had a good memory. still do. and so i said, okay, so i went

to the nearest church, newman center in berkeley. >> it drew you back to practicing catholicism and reading the bible but to priesthood. >> the research lab where people say the scientists, you know, are very slowly believe in god, i was in a research lab in palo alto where among -- around 60 employees and our center research department and the others, two bible studies weekly. >> really? >> and apparently a young man before me had become a catholic priest and three of my friends from there actually became full time christian missionaries. so it was a hotbed for christian calling and ministry. >> and these gentlemen are all out of the semiconductor industry. >> research, yeah. scientific environment, yeah. >> so you found your way into religion and priesthood. and your priesthood seems to be both the scholarly one and pastoral one, as i understand.

can you tell us what you do? >> at present i'm working at the newman center. and also working and teaching in the seminary. i teach courses on the gospels, john and, of course, on matthew, mark and luke. >> okay. and this newman center, for those of you who don't know, it is a catholic chaplaincy at a university. it is sonoma state university. you're acquainted with the ancient texts, you're acquainted with today's young people. and you have some theological literary and scientific knowledge with which you're equipped, and we have you here today to talk about the resurrection. so was the resurrection a key part of your interest, your renewed interest in calin catho at the time? >> it became that. i say first before that was the passion. the passion of christ, sufferings, the event of his

dying, the way he went through that. there was a major impact that came when i was reading the gospel of john and i came to the way of the cross when he had his cross, john says, taking his own cross, he went out from there. and i saw this view of christ, with just bloody with his crown of thorns carrying this cross and i looked on his face and saw this serene totally decisive face that -- that expression that he didn't care what was happening around him, he wasn't worried or upset or afraid or angry or anything. he was just determined to get to the place of his own death and i thought at the moment, this is god at work. this is divine. no man could live like that and love like, just, move forward to his own death. i thought, this is god, and it just made that kind of impact. >> that's powerful. that was just the picture of the

passion and death and suffering. something we all will experience is our death. and he faced it like a man and as you say, like a god, it seems. so the next question after that is the resurrection. after this brief break, please rejoin us and we'll talk about the resurrection of jesus of nazareth.

♪ good morning and welcome back. we're talking with father john boettcher about the resurrection of jesus christ. a teaching that is central to the catholic faith and i'll check with father boettcher on this, i believe always has been from the very beginning of the writing of the catholic doctrines. i believe st. paul in his early letter, i'm not sure which one it was, letter to the corinthians, says if jesus did not rise from the dead, our faith is in and it is a lie, it is not true. so we need to know, we need to believe this is an historical fact that jesus did rise from the dead. paul seemed to. what can you tell us about that?

>> well, there is a number of angles to approach the question. one of them is the physical evidence that remains of the passion itself to show he did die and the resurrection. and so obviously the fact we just have an empty tomb, we believe the bodies in heaven, body was risen, made spiritual, but actually corporal, so touchable, like, tactile. but at the same time we're, like, on earth, we can't point toward a body, in the sense of bones and what remains, and in a sense for catholics that's already evidence because you think about all the saints, we have some piece of their body usually. >> relics. >> relics. we're into relics. we don't have a relic for jesus or the virgin mary, bone, body, says something else already. well, if it were all production or a fantasy or invention, they would have invented relics and

say we got them here. but more seriously, if you look at the shroud of turin, that has been an intense focus of study from all kinds of angles, scientific in the last few decades, the results of that are extremely intriguing if not convincing. for a number of the people on the team, it is convincing enough to convert to the catholic faith. >> is that right? >> but to anyone who has any interest at all, they're intriguing. there are so many powerful signs that point in the same direction and then there is some strong signs that point otherwise. like the -- one of the later radio carbon datings was it was from 1350 something. >> okay. >> so there is all kinds of conflicting evidence. but the scientific approach is to look at all the evidence and include it in any viable theory. can't just say well, we're not going to pay attention to that and we'll come up with a theory that ignores the data. a scientist has to deal with all the relevant data and come up

with the theory that explains all of it or it is not a confirmed theory. so far that hasn't happened for any of the sides to explain a the data, convincingly. so we're kind of in the middle of, to me, the state of science, you know, a beautiful thing, i think, to intrigue and get people passionate about the argument whether for or against and work it out. that's what's happening. >> and then there is philosophical questions too. hist historical, a combination of things. one hears it is a myth that was invented later. this teaching was clear from the very beginning of christianity, yes? >> yeah. and if you look at the early sources like luke and his acts of the apostles and describing the gospel and then into the acts, he's describing the events that unfold and naming historical names and territories that looks pretty bona fide

historical narrative, right. and for the times, you know, that people take seriously as much as josephus. something to be taken seriously and not as a novel. the whole genre of other gospels, gospel of thomas and peter and all that, that came in the mid-second century, there was a genre around and multiplied, but we're talking about a whole different genre of ancient texts. some very early, 36 a.d. is thes and then first corinthians, 52, early stuff, you know? >> let's be clear about that. paul's epistole written between 50 and 60. witnesses were still around. so then i read this objection, oh, no, it was an invention, some kind of conspiracy among the early followers to what, to persuade the world? >> right.

the difficulty then goes and shifts to is it credible that a group of people that were among the most intensive about the commandment not to bear false witness, would they have all decided to bear false witness together and be hypocritical liars. of course that would be possible. but i don't think it is a credible argument. they had a strict level of ethics which says don't tell lies and don't tell half truths either. be willing to lie down your life for the truth. the matrtyrs who did die for saying the truth and could have gotten out with being quiet in thestatem, they f the h and killed for it. there is that kind of apologetic force not to accept that that is a credible story. >> i think that's an accurate recounting of the early history. yes, no one recanted jesus' resurrection. people died espousing it. and there is also, i think, literary -- i don't know if all

the viewers are aware, after the resurrection there is a pretty healthy post resurrection narrative in the scriptures, in the acts of the apostles and the gospels about what jesus did. he was present to his friends. they recount his works and his appearances at the time and they recount their own weakness and doubt. i think it is -- literarily it is impressive to me. i'm no expert, you tell me, that rings true? >> definitely. there is some early church text oz s on this basis. sometimes they looked bad like peter, no, keep that in there, i want everybody to know, i fell, i fell on my face. >> the first witnesses to the resurrection as told in the gospel is -- were women. women had a social status that didn't allow their word to be taken too seriously. >> they did. >> let's take another brief break and we'll return with father john boettcher and talk about the resurrection.

♪ hello and welcome back. we're talking with father john boettcher about the resurrection of jesus of nazareth. fascinating historical discussion in many different angles. so i think we established what

has been the christian doctrine from the beginning. and what -- there are efforts to debunk or resist it, but what do we get from it? what is important about it? why does it have a central place in our religious life? >> good question. i would say one thing is that since it is a tangible reality, at first in luke's gospel, they see jesus risen and they think it is a ghost. they get panicked. jesus says calm down. got anything to eat. they're, like, yeah, so he eats a piece of fish and some honey and they're, like, well, ghosts don't do that. must be okay. we're okay. like, you know, something tangible, handed him a piece of fish, they touched it, he ate it. okay, that demonstrates the bodily -- real human bodily presence. and i believe that's what's important. our body is a focus and the way we have passions, they were

afraid. you look in the resurrection, you see emotion there, passion, fear, joy, amazement, coming out in a way that most of the gospel is not there, really, there is actions for among the apostles, but rarely that kind of emotional intensity. >> so the resurrection -- if god became man and took on human form, then he suffers a human death. but overcomes it in this way. in this way that i strictly find unimaginable, i can't imagine what his risen body was. is this settled in the church doctrine? do we know? >> no, it is very mysterious. qualities are he can go through walls, he appears all of a sudden, and yet it is still a tangible body. it does throw us off. the qualities, it wouldn't fit the normal myth or whatever, the rules for how he can do whatever he's doing. >> and it is a display of god's power i take it, but as you point out, displayed modestly,

he comes, he gogoes, he knows h followers, he talks to them, not doing anything spectacular recorded in the gospel. >> he didn't heal anyone or work any miracles after the resurrection. >> yeah. >> just being with his disciples and convincing them he's really there and really alive. >> let me ask about this. i heard you played christ in the passion play up in lake county. that's an interesting angle to try to embody that person. >> very privileged and amazing experience. i just had come back from a pilgrimage in israel. i had been there for five weeks and just living, walking and sleeping where jesus walked and slept. and then i had gone to the passion play. >> in germany? >> outdoor, huge, beautiful, dramatic production. and i was asked to be in the role of christ in the lake county passion play, every may,

third sunday. there is 200 members in the cast and people on horseback, flocks of goats and it is big. >> sounds good. >> and in that play, just that amazing inside view of christ with his sufferings, with his carrying the cross, i insisted on making a full size, fully solid 4 by 12 cross, 110 pounds. and you can feel -- it was really heavy. with that experience, the sufferings within the grace of the resurrection and coming over the hill, risen, just seeing kind of the shock wave of awe go through the whole audience, i was, like, this is, like, the real thing, the impact the risen christ had and the joy that was there. and it started me thinking about, you know, the reason why, why did jesus have to come back like that? and it was for that full

convincing human relationship of the body embrace, you know, like, a certain beautiful point where i would go down to my mom, mary, give her a -- and the second time, hug, and it is like, you know, this is my son, you know, i know him. and it was a beautiful moment. just very emotional. and affirmative and if you look at the disciples, before that, they're scared and hiding in their upper room. after they encounter jesus risen, they're ready to go out to the ends of the world. and they have that intense zeal which wasn't happening before the body, the bodily presence of christ could affirm them and they were so convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, with him 40 days like that, they're ready to roll. >> you worked with young people, you're a chaplain at a state college, state university. are they interested in this. are they -- do they find the resurrection a more difficult

doctrine than you might expect or less? >> i think it is a challenge, , you know, pretty much the historical point. but the risen part, yeah. i believe there is a great movement among young people now to meditate on or to be in the presence of what we call the blessed sacrament, the host that we consecrate during the mass, which we believe is the body, although mystically so, body of christ, it doesn't look like it. but we believe that is really him. and it is tactile. and so that sense of a physical, real presence that also has a spiritual power to it, that's very intriguing for the young adults of today. it provides a lot of gusto. >> i do hear about this. our youth minister arranges these adoration sessions and i think it is not only meditative, but silent and deeply plumbing for people to get away from the

digital world and be lonealone god. father, thank you for being with us today. we have a minute left. what is the one or two things that a viewer should take away from this discussion? >> one, it is an intriguing mystery and worth all the attention we can give it. it is a real question. whether you believe it or not, there is some data out there, the shroud of turin, empty tomb, christian tradition, and also what we claim to be so is that jesus is with us now and there are physical manifestations of healings, the same things jesus used to do. also to realize the passion of that event, you know. where we have such a joy and such strength and ability to commiserate because we have this joyful sustenance inside too. it is very passionate thing. i say let your passions live. get curious. >> thank you. >> and go for it. >> thank you very much. and thank you for joining us on this special easter-themed presentation about the resurrection of jesus christ.

live from the cbs bay area news, this is kpix5 news. right now and streaming on cbs bay area news, fbi arrest ad fugitive in connection with the last month's mass shooting in sacramento, and we will tell you where they found the suspect. plus, governor gavin newsom has tested positive for covid, and he has met with lawmakeers and others, and could they be exposed. and plus we will meet with dancers and others participating in the parade. and also, we will talk about