♪ >> good morning and welcome to mosaic. it's always a privilege to host "mosaic" on behalf of my co co-host. i want to thank elizabeth and the staff here for giving such a wonderful tribute to bu burrow's last month. he was a longtime host as well as producer. over 30 years. i met him back in the early '70s when i began a minuistry in eas oakland. he was at the presbyterian church and i was at the elmhurst united methodist church and we

were involved in the clergy, the president was dr. jay alfred smith, and he got us involved in the city council, the school board, and emphasis on social justice began then. and then hugh was ended up being in el so rito and i was in richmond for 12 years at easter hill. so we continued our minuistries together, and then about 17 years ago, he asked me to host here and so i was ment ored alog with elizabeth being a host here and so we are grateful for all of this minuistry. we want to thank gail, his wife for the wonderful celebration of his life. we had about five wee agoaiyo a contribute. you've been all over the world with hugh. your minuistry to pakistan, the many trips there.

i've always admired and tand appreciated that so we're grateful for all thehe's done. one of the persons he admired deeply in his minuistry was howard thurmond, the great spiritual, religious giant among us and whenever i'd have this guest on, he said make shure yo alow time for this guest. and reverend dr. dorsey blake, great to have you, dorsey. >> thank you. it's great being here and always appreciate the invitation and the opportunity to come to mosaic and you told me earlier you'd been there how many years? >> 25 plus. i first went to fellowship church in 1992. i was not installed until 1994. so 25 plus. so the actual celebration of 25 years will be next year. we're also going to bhave a majr conference. we're expanding it hopefully to two or three days where we try to look at where are we now and we have to do more than react to

what is happening politically and socially. we have to create something new. we have to create a world that works for more people so that's going to be the focus next year. and we hope to have it for three days hopefully. >> the church for the fellowship of all people is where? >> it's on san francisco in san francisco, 2041 larkin street on broad -- between broadway and va vallejo. the church was the fination's first internationally interracial interfaith church. it was tart started in 1994 by dr. howard thurmond and dr. alfred fisk, who believed that if people came together and had deep religious experiences, that they would emerge -- there would emerge a sense of unity among them that would undercut b barriers among which people live. racial barriers and gender b barriers.

going on for 74 years. going on 75. >> that's wonderful. so you're talking about different religious backgrounds and races people and creeds. >> many people are former whatever but we have jewish folks in the congregation. buddhists in the congregation. communists in the congregation. people who had religious background. but they have found this -- and dr. thurmond attracted many of them. in fact, inherited said is this what this church is about? well, i want poob to be a part of it. so it was a powerful book. probably his most we well-recognized book and was very influential. and dr. howard and dr. king. many other people. >> meeting with gandhi had tremendous influence. >> he met with gandhi in 1936. he was part of a pilgrimage with his wife and two other people.

the carols were chosen to go to sellon, burma and india in 1935 and it was not until 1936 that he actually met with gandhi and they discussed non-violence, and that's when gandhi said it could be through -- at that time the negro, the mamerican negro that non-violence would have its greatest exposition. >> we're going to hear more about that because one of the things i thought of is why does howard thurmond matter this day? so let's come back to that. okay, thank you. please join us as we talk further about howard thurmdond and his spirituality and his impact on all of us. thank you for being with us. ♪ b

♪ >> welcome back to "mosaic." we've been talking to reverend dorsey blake about howard thurmond and i asked him before the break why does howard thurmond matter? >> howard thurmond believes in the search for common ground. he believes that it's spent his whole lifetime wanting, he said, for me to be me and for you to be you. >> that's good. >> and that if i go down deep inside of myself with my deep spiritual alley, i will come up inside of you.

he believed that we were re related, spiritually related. what hurt you hurt me and he was always on what he called the assent to find the same thing with you. he's important because, especially today because he, through the church and other places, put together a model for people to come together, not to divide, but to come together. and he believed that where we're stripped to the literal substance of ourselves, we stand before god as neither male, female, black or white, but there is this presence. there is a human soul that has developed and that's not negne negating our identities but it is a way of saying that there is something within each person,

something in each person that is -- that longs for the hunger of the heart, that longs for connection, not only with ourselves but with what he calls the all-pervading presence. >> that is tremendous summary, and that's just stoughing the surface but that's wonderful the way you speak about him. one of my favorite kwoefts his is that "find the grain in your own wood." >> that's what he told me when i was -- -- he matters because his spirituality helped me to find my own spirituality and to be comfortable in my search for my own spirituality. what i mean by that i grew up baptist. my father is a baptist minister. i have no problem with that at all. but as a young person, i could not, i guess, confined to this might found sound a little

radical, even the scriptures and i found truth in poetry and elsewhere but i always wondered does this violate my baptist understanding? this is non-christian. i'm reading somebody who is not a christian but that person speaks to me. and dr. thurmond told me it was okay. he said that what is true in religion is true because it's true. it is not true because it is in that selreligion. so that allowed me to explore the truth in nature, which is one his foundations. nature. he loves his oak tree in his backyard. the ocean. he always liked to stay near water. the ocean. but it was this kind of freeing of the human spirit to search for truth for wherever you may find it and accept it as true. >> that's really good. i mentioned helen keller recently and she said that as she could see, she wanted to spend three days see her fr

friends. the second day see nature, and the third day to see new york city. with all this energy and excitement. >> right. she was also an extraordinary person. >> listen. yeah. yeah. but you've touched on it. again, you had mentioned gandhi. let's go back there for a m moment. gandhi's influence on him and in a way he talked about n non-violence and the jesus and the disinherited. and i remember the line what d you do when you have your back against the wall? >> that's why he wrote jesus in disinherited because he found that he could not very many sermons that had ever been preached about the person with their back against the wall. and in terms of how he matters. look too day with so many peopl with their backs against the wall who do not have control of this society, who constantly

crushed by society. so his quest was how do you live in that kind situation and retain, maintain your own integrity? one of the things when he talked about the spiritual, he said was we were climbing jacob's ladder and the question is how have you lived your life in the knowledge of your truth? what he was trying to say is how do you carve out, how do you negotiate life and maintain integrity in an oppressive situation? and he said that jesus did it. and here are -- this is what jesus did. made certain decisions about how he was going to live his life and we all have to do that and he dealt with those things that really oppressed the oppressed. fear. oppressed people are afraid. they don't know what the tsociey is going to do to them. they are afraid to have certain

encounters with people and their fear keeps them incarcerated. people survive by trying to de receive or wear masks or by being hip ypocritical but if yoo that, even though there could be some justification for it. you don't want to tell people your basis when you are trying to negotiate with people in power. the more you de receive, the more likely it is that you will become a deception yourself. >> that's true. amen to that. >> then he talks about hatred and how that consumes a person. when you hate somebody, that person's in control of you. and the hatred destroys all your creativity. it keeps you from being creative because your whole living, your whole thoughts go toward the hated object or the hated person rather than taking control of your own life and moving fo forward. so when you look -- that is needed today, too, because we do a lot of reaction to what is

going on, but how do we take control our own lives? and create the kind of world that need to be? and he's saying we can do it but there has to be discipline. you have to make choices. you have to be willing to commitment. commitment. face the consequences of that commitment or those choices. but we can do it. and one of the most radical things he says when you read that at the very end, he said jesus did it, and he talked about talks about the religion of jesus he talks about the humanity of jesus. and he said because jesus was a human being who made these decisions and became an extraordinary person that we still talk about, all of us can do it. he took away all our excuses. >> i love that. i hate to stop it right there. we have to go to i break but that is really a great un understanding of thurmond and jesus. thank you for that, dorsey.

please come back. i know you'll be anxious to come back and hear more in our next seg ment with reverend dr. dorsy blake. ♪ b

♪ >> welcome back to "mosaic." if you didn't know who howard thurmond was, you get an idea because of dorsey's intimacy with him, knowing him all these years, pos pass toring this church for a good 25 years now so he knows his many, many books but i had you had a conv convocation. >> we do it in conjunction with the church's anniversary and this was just quite amazing. we had two extraordinary panelists. reverend debre lee and hutchins and we taulked about collective

liberation. we do it not only to introduce and commemorate thurmond's life and work, but we do it to say let's move forward. what are the issues facing us today and how do we deal with those? but you mentioned howard thurmond and briefly he was born in florida in 1899. he became -- there are many things about his childhood. he loved the ocean. he loved the darkness of the sky. he really loved nature. met gan. he became co-pastor of the fellowship church in 1944 and then in 1955, -- 1953, he became the first black person, african american person to be deaned. he was there 12 years. and he did so many critical things. dance, drama and so on because he always wanted the service to

surprise people because surprise is part of being awake. >> some of my mentors were there sew they always talk about that like john foster first minister i worked with. he always talks about that time. he said that was so special. and precious. >> yes. >> so that convocation is every year? >> every year the third sunday in october. >> october. and that's great to have that. and lift him up. why do you think he influenced dr. martin king, jr. and so many people but why him? >> i would say if you read dr. thurmond and you read dr. king, you will see the influence. i say in many ways king was the person who applied much of what thurmond talked about in terms of social reality. i think he influenced people. many of the people you mentioned

people very much committed to social action. it is said that king carried with him all the type a copy of the jesus and the disinherited and i think for people involved with social actions they saw in his writings this extraordinary understanding coming from gandhi and putting together in his own spin way on it a way forward for people to deal with the most critical issues in society, racism, all kinds of separation. so he was -- and then for king in particular, the families knew each other. thurmond knew dr. king's father. they were at morehouse together. >> that's right. >> and mrs. thurmond knew martin lutiher king's mother because they were both daughters of baptist ministers and the families knew each other. one of the things that's very interesting when you talk about the what ifs, when dr. thurm was at boston university, king was also there. he was finishing his doctorate. >> i didn't know that. >> and he went over to the

thurmonds to watch the world series cause they knew each other. and it was at that point when he was there talking with dr. thurmond, king and thurmond were talking together that mrs. thurmond asked martin lutiher king about sometcoming to san francisco to be pastor of f fellowship church isn't that something? >> my question is what if? what if he had come to san francisco and instead of montgomery? because that's when she learned that he had just decided to go to montgomery. what if he had come to cosan francisco instead? would there have been a civil rights movement at the level that it was without king's leadership? >> provocative question. >> and on the surface, this is king. san francisco looked on the surface like a better place to be because ckocoretta was an opa singer. didn't have discrimination.

>> he was offered so many positions. but i want to come back to if people were trying to read thurmond. i want to recommend some of the books you think to get a hold of them. let's also talk about his robe. let's not forget that. please come back for our last seg ment as we learn more about howard thurmond. ♪ bl

♪ >> we've been with reverend dorsey blake, reverend dr. d dorsey blake and he has really shared with us howard thurmond a

great deal and even as these few minutes i asked him about some of the books if you wanted to know more about thurmond and a robe that he's going to tell us about. tell us about the books first. >> i think the most critical book to read is "jesus and the disinherited." that's the book that influenced king and so many others. then he has quite a few books of med tagsz. people for people interested in racial issues "the lumineous darkness is " is a fabulous boo. dr. thurmond's own choice of favorite book was "the inward journey." i asked him and he goes "the inward journey." and to get a better unde understanding, i would read his autobiography. >> i love that one. >> for those who like prayer. so there are so many books that he wrote that speak so deeply. another is "the mood of christmas." >> i was going to mention that.

he loved that. >> and has so much his beautiful poetry. >> yeah. great ones. and we know one just came out. "the parables of jesus." >> i'm glad you told me about that. >> his sermons. i just picked it up. >> and i'm fascinated. after you told me, they are going to order copies. >> great. i think i got the last copy. >> yes, you did. >> tell us about the robe. >> at my installation service in 1994, it was a very difficult time during my life because i lost my position for the center for black studies. and what happened was at my installation service in 1994, mrs. thurmond presented me with dr. thurmond's robe and totally wiped me out. right before she presented this she said and this robe has not been worn since howard's death. >> this is in '81.

>> this was in '94. so she placed on me and i was just wiped out. i could not speak actually. i really couldn't. i couldn't. and i just stood there and finally lawrence lake ey. remember. and locallita. sthey came up sand so on. well, on the third sunday in january, which is martin lutihe king's sunday, we will have eric williams, who is with the submittmithsonian institute of n american museum and you i will presenting to him the thhoward thurmond robe. i've had it all that time. there is only one other person who has worn it and that's my co-minister dr. benton. but it's a little fragile and i thought it might be an inspiration. i was contact by them to have a photo about dr. thurmond and i said what about his robe.

they aid oh, my god, yes. so we'll be presenting the robe and also we have the robe of dr. fisk, the co-founder of the church. so we'll be giving both photos of each one of them and the robe of dr. thurmond and the robe of dr. fisk. >> that's wonderful pug museum. we have just one minute. we can't go without mentioning the 139 psalms. why did he love that so much? >> because it is so intimate. now, thou knowest my unde understanding and it's that kind of -- the walk, the walk with what he called the presence and he talks about the light and the darkness. both the light and the darkness are both alike unto thee. so he's dealing with for him we have these dichotomies and that's what happened too much in life. we have dichotomies and he's

saying no. even with god, the darkness, the light, yes, the unity is there. >> you have to come back. and you have over the years. thank you. >> i appreciate it. >> thank you. praise god. >> thank you. >> for continuing that tremendous work that you are doing. >> thank you. >> we are learning from it. i hope you will be with us. continue with us next month. i'm ron swish er. ♪ b

live from the bay area cbs studios, this is kpix studios. >> it is a sense of grief. it is a sense of loss. t is like a vicarious trauma. >> new at 6:00, the anger pouring out into the streets after the supreme court's decision to take away abortion rights. and the san francisco march to celebrate lesbians. >> everybody is being themselves. >> good morning, it is sunday, june 26th. i'm devin fehely. and let's check in with the weather with our