please join us when our trumpet sounds again next sunday morning. until then, enjoy the rest of your week. captioning sponsored by cbs >> brennan: good morning. and welcome to "face the nation." i'm margaret brennan. last week we saw several seismic developments here in washington that will impact americans and our democracy for years to come. we are living in the thick of unprecedented upheaval around the country and the world, and we are all feeling its impact. just this morning our cbs news poll puts the number of americans feeling that our democracy is under threat at 72%. for the first time in nearly 50 years, tens of millions of american women begin the week without the protection of a constitutional right to an abortion. it is a significant

victory for the anti-abortion rights movement. but friday's supreme court decision to direct states to regulate abortion on their own terms has resulted in chaos and confusion as the to ruling's practical impact, and not surprisingly, enormous anger and fear sparked by rhetoric of those who think laws should be more restrictive. on guns, the supreme court cleared the way for nearly all american adults to carry concealed weapons in public. meanwhile, just a few hundred yards away, congress, who had been crippled by inaction on significant g gun-control legislation for decades, responded to the recent massacres in uvalde and buffalo by passing a bipartisan law expanding gun checks for gun buyers under 21, and providing states with funding for mental health and school

safety. in the january 6 committee hearings, we heard testimony that president trump repeatedly pressed some state election officials and justice deputy officials to interfere in the election with the knowledge that his actions were illegal. these fishers in our three branches of government and the test of our democracy come as president biden joins world leaders in germany to discuss ways to keep the global economy afloat and to counter russian aggression. the challenges facing the president and our country are nothing short of enormous. these challenges are taking their toll on americans' view on how mr. biden is handing his job. only 41% of americans approve of his job. that's the lowest we've recorded for his presidency. we begin today with cbs news senior national correspondent mark strassmann in atlantic. [yelling] >> reporter: chaos in

the carolinas, protestors squaring off in greenville, south carolina, one of many weekend flashpoints. in iowa, this pickup truck driver went right through abortion rights potestors. from noisy crowds in new york to los angeles, where a country convulsed by the supreme court's dobbs' decision. this constitutional milestone cast a half century by conservative activists. >> a motto that my mom taught me in her ministry is that our job is not to make abortion illegal, but make it unthinkable. >> reporter: it roshes robs women of a fundamental frefreedom, and gives state lawmakers, mostly men, control over their bodies. >> it was accepted by the supreme court by the constitution of the united states, and to have that

being threatened now and other things threatened because of this casing in caving inis very, very scary. >> reporter: within months, abortion could be illegal by almost half of the country. these 13 states will activate what is called trigger bans. in this group of states, the dobbs' decision could see anti-abortion legislation unblocked by lower courts or resurrect pre-roe abortion bans. abortion's future is uncertain in parts of america. and in 20 states, abortion rights remain solidly in place for now. georgia is one of a dozen states to pass a so-called ffetal heartbeat bill. the dobbs decision could clear the way for them to become law and end legal abortions at six weeks. america's high fever over

abortion makes a dialect impossible. we'rnwe're not going to talk this one out. abortion rights opponents want more restrictions. >> brennan: mark strassmann reporting from atlantic. one of the states fighting a restrictive abortion ban is michigan. its governor, gretchen whitmer joins us this morning. >> good morning, margaret. >> brennan: it was a 1931 law already on your books, that would outlaw it with no exceptions for rape or incest. i know there is confusion in your state. what exactly is the status of your appeal to the state's supreme court. >> this is precisely why i

filed my lawsuit a few months ago. a lot of people questioned if it was timely or even necessarily. and it became clear it is timely and absolutely necessary. there is a lot of confusion about what this means for i.v.f., for practitioners, and some hospitals are interpret interprg it. and that's why our supreme court needs to act. i teed up this lawsuit asking them to recognize a fundamental due process right to privacy and bodily autonomy and reproductive health care. it is time for them to weigh in and recognize this right under our state constitution. >> brennan: so what happens if you lose? >> well, we've got -- we're going at it. we're pulling out all of the stops. this is a fight like hell moment. so our partners filed this other lawsuit. they have the injunction which is on appeal. and there is an effort to collect signatures and amend our constitution. so we're using every tool

we have to fight for reproductive rights for michigan women and ohio women and women who come here for their health care. >> brennan: in every state now state capitals are going to make the decision. roe v. wade guaranteed abortion up to roughly 24 weeks of pregnancy. if the court strikes down this ban you are fighting, and you have to craft a new law here, is there a compromise that is possible here? can you settle on 20 weeks? 15 weeks? anything less than roe? >> what i'm trying to fight for is the status quo in michigan. and there are reasonable restrictions on that. with the current legislature that i have, there is no common ground, which is the sad thing. they've already introduced legislation to criminalize and throw nurses and doctors in jail. they have endorsed the 1931 law, which has all of the republican people running for governor.

they want abortion to be a felony, no exceptions for rape or incest. that's what kind of legislature i'm working with. and that's why this is such a scary moment for michigan women and our families. >> brennan: according to the cbs news polling, most americans feel abortion should be legal within the first tri-mester. a third say it should be legal after that as well. if you're saying you can't talk this out with your state legislature, can you at least put it on the ballot? does the public get to decide here? how do you move forward? >> so 70% of the people in our state do support a woman being able to make that choice herself. whether that is a choice they would make or not. i am horrified, as are so many women who are 50 jeyears old or in my generation, with the thought that my daughters will have fewer rights

that i've had virtually my whole life. but i take heart in the fact that the vast majority in this state support that right for a woman to choose. there are independents out here and we need them to join this fight. >> brennan: but if you put it out there to the public, they have to pick and make a specific statement here. is anything less than roe possible? is compromise possible? >> i think compromise is possible. we have already seen michigan enact some restrictions on abortion. we have a waiting period. there is beyond viability. it is not accessible except for the life of the mother, the woman. but this is a moment where we're seeing how extreme the michigan g.o.p. has gotten. this radical agenda to deprive women of their ability to make the most important economic decision they'll make in their lifetime, when or

whether or not to have a child. >> brennan: how much do you think that the democratic party or democratic leadership failed here? this was telegraphed for so long. should the federal government do more? >> i have been urging democratic leaders to use every tool at their disposable to protect women's rights to make health care decisions. we all have different sets. this is now being pushed down to the states. and that's why i'm fighting so hard to protect this right in michigan. >> brennan: but you aren't looking for more from the federal government at this time? >> as i said, i'm urging every -- every pro-choice leader to use every tool in their toolbox. so i'm hopeful and believe that the biden administration is going to do that. i can just tell you what i am doing here on the ground in michigan. >> brennan: i want to ask you about this that domestic violent

extremists may incite it mentioned a pro abortion rights group in michigan. how concerned are you about violence? what are you seeing on the ground? >> i'm concerned about a lot of things happening in the united states right now. and the last couple of decisions that came out of the united states supreme court make america more dangerous, more guns, fewer rights, less health care. it is scary. as a lawyer, it crushes me to say that even i am losing faith that these important institutions that are supposed to be above the politics of the day are now being corrupted. that's what we're seeing out of our united states supreme court. and i'm very concerned about our long-term prosperity, our homeland security, and our safety. >> brennan: this warning about threats to federal, state government officials, including judges, are you concerned about active threats in michigan? >> of course i am. margaret, i have been the recipient of so much

ugliness and hate, often stoked by the former president, and this is a very scary moment. with the proliferation of the ugly rhetoric, the scary proliferation of guns and fewer and fury stfewerrestrictions, so any policy-maker that makes a hard decision, we have to be much more fearful on a whole new level. >> brennan: i'm assuming you can't get your state to establish a red flag law, despite the federal incentive? >> i'm still pushing, with the legislature i have to work with. it is,it is -- that's part of this radicalized republican party in michigan. >> brennan: governor whitmer, we'll be watching what happens in your state. so thank you. "face the nation" will be back in a minute, so stay with us.

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>> brennan: south dakota is one of 13 states with so-called trigger laws that locked new abortion restrictions into place after roe v. wade was overturned. kristi noem has a new memoir out entitled "not my first rodeo." good morning, governor noem. >> brennan: the only exception is if it is necessary to preserve the right of a pregnant female. you're calling a special session. what exactly do you want to change or implement here? >> well, what happened with the supreme court decision this week is that abortions in the state of south dakota immediately became illegal unless it was to save the life of the mother. that was in place. as soon as that decision was made. and what i believe will happen if we go into a special session, there will be debate around how we can support these mothers. i've already launched a

website called life.sd.gov. and it is to get help to those in a crisis situation, it will coordinate people who will come alongside them during this time. and also ensure they get health care and access they need. it lists all of the non-profits and organizations that work with them. and it can extend to families that may want to adopt their baby should they give their baby up for adoption. it is an incredible resource that does more to support these women that are in a situation that was unplanned and leaves them in a situation when they're not prepared for the news they're expecting a baby. >> brennan: on that, though, america has the worst mortality rate of any country. what specifically are are doing for these women not just when they the baby, but during their pregnancy? are you giving them more health care? what exactly are you doing

to keep them alive during their pregnancy? >> i think that will be a lot of debate that will go on in all of the different states, now that the supreme court has made this decision. the power to make these decisions goes to each individual state. we have already talked about that in south dakota. what is the state's role and what can we do for the individuals to give them the health care they need to help their baby be born healthy and help them be parents, or help them choose a loving family to raise that child. >> brennan: so you're still forgiving out the specifics? >> this trigger law was put into place once the supreme court made the decision that they did. that's the debate and discussion that we're having. what is incredible and what is going on is that the people will decide. elected officials at the state level is who they'll be talking to to decide what t their state laws look like. south dakota over the past

several years has stood for life and defending life, and i think we'll continue to have those debates on how we can support those mothers and what it means to make sure we're not prosecuting mothers ever in a situation like this, when it comes to abortion, that it will always be focused towards those doctors who knowingly break the law to perform abortions in our state. >> brennan: south dakota is one of 30 states that will limit access to telemedicine abortions, which allow patients to receive pills in the mail that would allow them to end their pregnancy. the president has said he is going to use the justice department to intervene if there is an attempt to stop women from receiving these pills. are you actually going to seize mail? how would you stop women from receiving this federally approved medication? >> i brought a bill that would ban telemedicine abortions, which means a doctor over the internet

or over the phone could prescribe an abortion -- these are very dangerous procedures. a woman is five times more likely to end up in an emergency room if -- >> brennan: this is an f.d.a. approved drug. >> it is something that should be under the supervision of a medical doctor, and it is something in south dakota -- >> brennan: but that what i'm asking you. because at the state level -- >> at the state level -- >> brennan: right, but this is a federally approved drug. are you saying that the state of south dakota is going to overrule the f.d.a. and decide which drugs will be available to its residents? >> many of those decisions are made at the state level. >> brennan: if it is centersent in the mail, will you stop it -- 350e >> the rest of the items are left to the states.

the 10th amendment guarantees us. the supreme court said the constitution does not give the woman a right to have an abortion. that means in each state they will make the decision. in south dakota, we already had a bill passed about telemedicine abortion, that we don't believe it should be available because it is a dangerous situation for those individuals without being medically supervised by a physician -- >> brennan: it sounds like you're ready to fight the justice department on that one. the president also said his administration will oppose any state governments that try to block the mail, search a person's medicine cabinet, by tracking data by apps she uses. is south dakota going to adopt laws like oklahoma and texas has that incentivize women to support on their neighbors? 350e>> margaret, that has never been the conversation in south

dakota. we protect our freedoms and our liberties here. we will make sure that the mothers have the resources and medical care they need, and we're being aggressive on that. and we will make sure that the federal government only does its jobs. this administration has been overstepping its authority and they have been punishing the american people, and we've seen increased energy costs, supply-chain challenges, and freedoms taken away. it is incredible the amount of problems this country is having because of the policies out the biden administration. my job at governor is to my job, and that is to protect people from these bad policies. >> brennan: how will you handle operations in your state that say they will provide health care and financial help for those who want to travel o out of state for health care? >> those aren't the conversations we're having. >> brennan: so you won't sue wal-mart or amazon who said they will do for

their families. they will not face litigation from the state of south dakota? >> we're going to continue to support these mothers, to make sure they're protected from any prosecution that would happen. make sure these babies are recognized and that every single life is pressure and we support our laws. i'll continue to make sure the people of the state know they can speak to their elected representatives who can make those decisions closer to home -- >> brennan: i think you were saying you're not going to go after corporations there. >> no intention to do that, margaret. >> brennan: a fellow republican, congresswoman nancy mace of south carsouthcarolina was on the program a few weeks ago. listen to her. >> i'm a rape victim myself. and when you realize what happened, the trauma, the emotional and mental and physical trauma in a

woman's life, she should make that decision with her doctor, between her and her god. >> brennan: how do you respond to her? are you open to exceptions for rape and incest? >> my heart goes out to her and every woman has had to go through that situation. what i would say is i believe ever life is pressure. our trigger law says if it is to save the life of the mother -- we know so much more even 10, 15 years ago about what these babies go through, the pain they feel in the womb. i have never believed that having a tragedy or a tragic situation happen to someone is a reason t have another tragedy occur. >> brennan: so no exception for rape or incest -- >> we will continue to go forward and that we're putting resources in front of these women and walking alongside them, getting them the health care, the

mental health counseling and services they should need to make sure we continue to support them and build stronger families far into the future as well? >> brennan: so no exceptions? >> this is a debate that will continue to happen from state to state, margaret. i think that's what unique about the united states of america. we have a very limited federal government. the supreme court did its job. it fixed a wrong decision it made many years ago and returned this power back to the states, which is how the constitution and our founders intended it. so the fear tactics i hear coming out of so many people from so many pundits and those in the media, scaring women, saying they're going to have a bigger risk of death because of this decision, what this is going to do is give them the ability to weigh in with their local elected officials to make sure their state statutes reflect what they need to have their health care and their options and babies protected into the future. >> brennan: exactly.

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>> brennan: if you can't watch the full "face the nation," you can set your d.v.r., or we're available on demand. plus you can watch us through or cbs and paramount+ app. so you'll never miss a meeting. and neither will she. meta portal, make working from home work for you.

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♪♪ >> brennan: welcome back to "face the nation." we turn to our chief legal correspondent jan crawford. this was a huge decision. you accurately predicted it for months, back in december. what we know is the supreme court ruled a state can now ban abortion not only before viability, which is 24 weeks, but at any time in pregnancy. so what does that mean? what does post- roe america look like? >> what you saw with your excellent conversations with governor whitmer and governor noem, there will be a pas a patchwork.

if you are in a state that bans abortion, you will have to travel to another state to get abortion or to try to get a medical abortion, those pills by mail, but as you saw from governor noem, some states are going to try to ban that as well. but the point is women do have more options now, i guess. if we look like what it was like before roe. there is more support for women seeking abortion than there was then. but you see efforts to punish women and efforts to turn neighbors into bounty hunters of sort. it will be interesting to see how that works out as we progress. >> brennan: that's a great point. i think we're just beginning this conversation, really, about abortion. >> right. >> brennan: but the decision itself made at the court, the security of that day was incredible. and we know the supreme court justices themselves are under heavy guard. >> well, there has been a significant amount of threats. even before the ruling, we

saw an att man charged with attempting to assassinate justice kavanaugh. the protests we've seen so far, though, have largely been pretty peaceful. groups on bothsight sides both sides aretrying to condemn violence. they want to keep it on the real issues that go to the core of women's rights and the rights of the unborn. >> brennan: justice thomas wrote that this court should revisit decisions related to gay marriage and contraception. but the conservative majority, justices alito and kavanaugh, they both said in their opinion that it doesn't call those things into question. so which is it, and does it set our country on a course towards political and legal conflict? >> more political and legal conflict than we have now, right. yes, justice thomas wrote that separate opinion, and the language is very

jarring for some people to read. but he is one vote and it takes five. and the court majority said it is hard to see how we can be any more color that the right to contraception and same-sex marriage are not in doubt. abortion is different because it involves a life. you had justice kavanaugh writing a separate opinion emphasizing that point. so right now there are not five votes on the supreme court to reexamine those cases. there is one. >> brennan: but it opens that conversation about do you need to put those things into law, codify them? there is so much more here, jan. you're going to be busy. i'm sure you'll be back with us. thank you for your analysis here. thank you. >> thank you. >> brennan: in last week's january 6 committee hearings we learned of president trump's pressure campaign on state election officials in georgia and arizona, along with efforts to recruit his own justice department, then led by jeffrey rosen to

over turn the election and claim fraud without evidence. >> mr. rosen said to mr. trump, d.o.j. capitol can't and won't snap its fingers to change the outcome of the election. how did the president respond? >> to say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and fellow congressmen. >> brennan: they later sought pad pardons for their roles. >> the only reason i know to ask for a pardon is because you think you committed a crime. >> brennan: pete aguilar is a number of the january 6 select committee and he joins us from new york. good morning, congressman. >> good morning, margaret. >> brennan: and we also heard sworn testimony that the former president spoke to the justice department and homeland security about seizing voting machines. there was testimony that a

pentagon official and the acting defense secretary were chasing a conspiracy about italian satellites changing votes. these are outrageous ideas, but how far did this actually get? >> well, i think what the testimony and what we have laid out clearly indicates that the president, you know, knew he lost the election, and then he continued to gravitate to these conspiracy theories along the way, and november and december calling the election corrupt. and then whenever legal door had closed and he lost over 60 lawsuits, then the pressure campaign to the department of justice, to his own vice president. that's what we saw. but there was no shortage of conspiracy theorists in his ear each and every time. the text messages to mark meadows laid that out, individuals bringing things up that had know

basis in fact and his own department of justice refuted. >> brennan: does vice-president pence, who you just mentioned, does he need to come and testify before your committee? >> well, that was the hearing that i led, was all about the president's pressure on the vice president. we heard directly about that pressure campaign from his top legal counsel at the time. and we think it was an important hearing. and clearly there is a lot more there. and we would obviously love to gather more information. but i think we clearly laid out the case that the president had no regard for the vice president's safety. never reached out to him that day at all and was willing to sacrifice his own vice president while stopping a peaceful transfer of power if it meant holding on to power himself. >> brennan: but you don't have a firm no from

the former vice president? >> i'm not going to get into, you know, conversations about future interviews or witnesses. but what i can tell you is that the committee has said from the very beginning more information is good. and we're always going to be willing to take in more information about what happened on january 6, and what are the causes that led up to january 6. but clearly as we have laid out in five strong hearings that this is just about telling the facts, and that's all we're concerned about. >> brennan: we look at our own polling and we see that confidence in the u.s. electoral system is not faring well. some think that election officials in the future will refuse to certify results for political reasons. do you think based on the work you've been doing that the public should feel more confident? >> well, i think the public should be aware of this. and i think that's exactly what the hearing has sought to do, which is how do we protect democracy?

this is bigger than donald trump. this is bigger than one individual. how do we protect democracy and make sure that we stand up for the rule of law. and clearly there were individuals who did their job that day and leading up to january 6. brad rapensburger and other officials who did their job. there is a possibility that people may not do their job, and i think that's the problem that we face. >> brennan: there is a little competing background noise there, but i want to ask you, we heard from the justice department officials who testified this week about mr. trump's plans to install jeffrey clark as the acting attorney general to help his scheme to over turn the election. and liz cheney, the vice chair, made a passionate plea for the white house counsel to come and talk to you. are you going to subpoena him? why is he not on the

docket? >> well, there were be future hearings. there will be more witnesses. that's what i can say. i'm not going to get into specifics for witnesses, but i believe that the vice chair was very clear that we would love to hear from pat sipaloni. there are other witnesses who we feel will add to what we are doing and the work product that we're putting together on future hearings that we have when congress reconvenes. this is about piecing together the puzzle for the american people so we know clearly what is at stake in protecting the democracy. >> brennan: i want to read the names of the individuals we heard actually ask for pardons. jim jordan, marjorie taylor greene, a white house aide testified that matt gaetz, scott perry --

all sitting congressmen explicitly asked for pardons. what action should be taken against your fellow lawmakers? >> we have sent them letters and subpoenas to them. what is important that we tell the truth. but as my colleague adam kinzinger mentioned, there really isn't -- i think the american public understands folks asking for pardons generally feel they did something illegal. so i think it is important that the public understands that. i think what people understand about the january 6 committee is that we only present things based in evidence and fact. that is exactly what we laid out this week. we look forward to laying out more facts about what happened, as well as this topic. >> brennan: and we will look for those further hearings. thank you, congressman, for your time today. we'll be right back. ca

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>> brennan: we're joined now by marc short, he was former vice-president pence's chief-of-staff. good morning to you, marc. >> good morning, margaret. >> brennan: i'm glad you're here. you were with the former vice president on january 6 when he sheltered and when he ultimately went ahead and certified the election results that day. is he watching these hearings, and why is he dragging out that decision on whether to cooperate. >> i don't know if h i dragging outis decision. with regard to whether he is watching it -- we all lived it. last week, for instance, as the hearings were going on, he was out campaigning in illinois for darren lahood, campaigning for steve chabet, he was up in new york campaigning. he is trying to make sure that the republicans have a great mid-term election.

and not relitigating the past. >> br >> i think it would be incredibly unprecedented. i think conversations between a president and vice president, there is a separation of power that should be respected. let's keep in mind that there is currently a former vice president who occupied the oval office. do you want congress to be able to drag up -- >> brennan: this is incredible. you lived it, as you say. >> we did live it. margaret, i think both myself, and the chief counsel, has been under subpoena and have testified for many hours. so we've told, i think, the story of what the vice president witnessed and saw. >> brennan: i want to ask you about the team. former trump s,counterstaffma ag uga actfied it was

meadows who was distributing this bizarre conspiracy theory about italian satellites. how complicit was he in this lie? >> you know, margaret, i believe that mark would often say to me he was working to try to get the president to concede and accept the results of the election, and at the same time it was clear he was bringing in lots of other people into the white house who were feeding the president for conspiracy theories. i think mark was telling different audiences all sorts of different stories. as i said on many occasions, i think the president was poorly served by the team he had around him, and i think they fed him many conspiracy theories about election day and the following days. >> brennan: but there were individuals who stood up to president and said that is false, and that is uns constitutiona unconstitutional. >> i think that we're all

proud of the way he handled it that day. >> brennan: i want to ask you about abortion. the january 6 committee revealed this week this week that the chief-of-staff for senator ron johnson of wisconsin was trying to pass along fake electors to t the vice president, right before he was set to certify the election. were you aware of this scheme? was the senator directly involved? >> i have no reason to believe that the senator was directly involved. they shared with me the text that came in, and i said to chris not to deliver that to the vice president. what we learned is honestly this happens every cycle. the members send in fake setter of electors every four years but they dismiss them. if they're not certified -- >> brennan: are you saying what ron johnson

staff was doing is totally kosher? >> i didn't say that. i said individuals can send in their own sets, but it means nothing unless it is certified. we were, like, there is no interest in seeing a separate set that has not been certified by the state of wisconsin. >> brennan: isn't that troubling to you? this isn't a random person sending it -- >> i think we are clear in that there were other electors that were submitted. >> brennan: was he the only one who tried to do that? >> i don't know of any member of congress or staff that tried to that. that was a staff to staff conversation. >> brennan: it pretty incredible, frankly. >> there are a lot of incredible things that happened around that day. >> brennan: yes. we could talk for the next hour, marc, about that day. i want to ask you about the former vice president, as you mentioned, who has been out there on the

campaign trail. one of the things mike pence is known for is being a staunch opponent of abortion and very much pro-life. you played such a key role in getting these three supreme court justices on the court who did vote to overturn roe v. wade, the conservative majority directly linked to the administration that you served in. you are now talking about the former vice president -- a ban on abortion, so going further than we are right now. what does a ban on abortion look like? >> 50eu7b8g the vice i think the president has been champing life since the very beginning. i think where we believe that life begins in conception, but i think that the vice president has always accepted exceptions for rape and incest because he thinks we should move toward a

more perfect union -- >> brennan: like what governor yongken in doing in virginia, 15 weeks -- is there a compromise? >> we will continue to champion life wherever we can. if you can extend more protections for unborn children, we're going to advocate for that. i think it is important to keep in mind there never was -- there never was anything that justices could revert to, say in roe v. wade, that there was a protection or certain right for women to get an abortion. even ruth bader ginsburg said it was highly unusual for them to have -- >> brennan: do you oppose the kind of surveillance -- >> i think we are always better when we're speaking from a position of compassion than condemnation. we should be acknowledging there are multiple victims of abortion, not just the child, but also the mother. we should be looking to provide those women with the cares and services they need.

>> brennan: marc short, good to have you here. >> margaret, thank you tor for having me. >> brennan: we'll be back in a moment. there is nothi illinois is in the middle. and what do you find in the middle? ♪♪ the meeting point of humanity and history. ♪♪ it's the middle of the architectural revolution. ♪♪ in the middle of the rainbow. ♪♪ woohoo! we're flying through the middle of everything! welcome to the middle of everything.

>> brennan: we want to welcome david malpas, president of the world

bank. welcome back to "face the nation." >> thank you very much. >> brennan: there are a number of stressors on the world economic system. how do you describe where we are? >> it is a sharp slowdown, even china. we have seen the world growth by half since january in terms of g.d.p. growth, and there are also shortages and inflation. and the food shortages for the poorer countries are becoming a significant concern. >> brennan: global inflation, it is not just the u.s., other wealthy countries around the world. but you're also describing a recipe for global instability? >> it feeds in. when there is not enough food for weaker countries and poorer countries, that causes instability. and it is a big factor in the turnover of governments occurring in quite a few of the countries. >> brennan: covid caused the deepest recession since world war ii. now the world economy is in danger because of this

russian invasion in ukraine. how do you avoid a global recession with all of these factors? >> some countries, it is going to be very hard to do that. i think that leadership from the stronger countries is very important. there are a lot of possibilities, tools, for example, the central banks have many more tools than in 2008. there are regulatory tools that they have. they now hold huge bond portfolios. those are all funded by money from banks. the bottom line is there needs to be lots more prod production, and that's most available to the strongest countries. the u.s. is the world's biggest economy and can increase production more than anybody else. >> brennan: so if you were talking to jerome powell, you would say focus less on interest rates. focus more on what? >> he has multiple tools. one is regulatory policy. the fed is an important regulator of banks. so let the banks lend

more. but then, also, on the bond side, reducing the bond portfolio would return more money to banks. all of the money being used to hold the bank portfolio comes from banks. if they had more, they can lend, and also the not bank sector of the u.s. economy, one of the most innovative, it could put more money into the supply chain. >> brennan: they said food crisis will be at least a three-year problem. what times do you put on the food crisis and the energy crisis? >> it is possible to produce enough to soften that crisis. but at the rate we're going right now, the fertilizer isn't being made -- a giant source of fertilizer is from natural gas through the ammonium channel, and it is also used to make the electricity that converts the minerals into

fertilizer. and that is just not happening. so a lot of the world is shutting down for lack of fertilizer. and then those shortages of crops will last for multiple years. we need to break that cycle, and do it pretty forcefully now through announcements. >> brennan: the federal reserve chair said this week in this country that recession is certainly a possibility, in part because of higher interest rates. the citigroup puts the odds at 50%. what's your projection? >> we put out a report three weeks ago that didn't have the u.s. in recession, but we said in downside scenarios, there could be. i don't disagree with your agree with fed say it will take a couple of years before we get inflation down to 2%. >> it is going to take time to come down. again, that depends on what is your forecast for oil prices, for natural

gas, for fertilizer. it will take months and months, and maybe two years, to bring inflation back down. >> brennan: thank you very much for your time. >> thank you. >> brennan: we will be back. think he's posting about all that ancient roman coinage? no, he's seizing the moment with merrill. moving his money into his investment account in real time and that's... how you collect coins. your money never stops working for you with merrill, a bank of america company. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home, work. it syncs with your favorite vc apps so you'll never miss a meeting. and neither will she.

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>> brennan: and a reminder, if you can't watch the full "face the nation," you can set your d.v.r. or we're available on demand. thank you for watching. until next week, for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan. ♪♪ captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org

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