going in the future. get started at keeps.com/tv. . good morning and welcome to mosaic. i'm ron swish and this is the day of pentecost. for some it means the birthing of the church as well as the broadening of the church. the birthing, where we might sing happy birthday, but we also might be singing in christ, there is no east or west, for we broaden our mission and ministry. on this die of pentecost. the last time you saw me was on

easter. i had two guests who told us a lot about easter and i was so inspired, i asked them to come back. we are blessed to have carol estes and jim hopkins, welcome back. >> thank you. >> you were so dynamic, that we were on youtube for the first time. and youtube celebrated its 10th anniversary last month and therefore they celebrated by having us. >> i didn't get the word we went viral. >> so i know a lot of people knew a lot about easter at that time. because of what you folks shared. so hopefully they'll feel the same after hearing about pentecost. before we do that, carol, tell us a little bit about your background and your ministry. >> i'm a nature it have of san francisco. very proud to have been born and raised here in the city. growing up in the close to

golden gate park. graduated from the theological union in berkeley. i serve as a chaplain for the paltive care department at kiser and also the senior pastor at elmhurst united methodist church in oakland. i was born in salt lake city, grew up in western colorado. college in oregon. ultimately graduated from fresno pacific college and. >> i am currently back as the chair of the board of trustees. >> all right. >> and it is such an important place in my life. what i learned there i can't define myself without that experience. spent some time in los angeles. and since 1989, i have been the pastor at lakeshore avenue baptist church on the corner of like shore in oakland.

we are dedicated to our city. without even giving you a memo, you are in red. >> spirit moves. >> the spirit moves. >> tell us about pentecost. if you were speaking to an audience, a congregation that knew nothing about pentecost, what would you say first to them, carol? >> pentecost is a time where the spirit is moving to empower the people. so, instead of focusing on jesus, jesus is then turning the table around to say now, it is your turn. you take it and you run with it. because we are the hands and the feet and the body in flesh of god. >> i like that. i like that. >> and jim? >> i'm thinking exactly the same way. knowing that this day was coming, i called a little gathering of some folks in our congregation and said tell me what you think about pentecost. i represent you. and one of the folks said

exactly the same thing. pentecostsy akind of graduation. jesus says as i have been physically with you, now you, body of christ, you are going to be physically empowered by the spirit and the world. it is time for you to step up and grow up. >> i like both those thoughts on the holy spirit and on pentecost. the, i'm of the bias that a lot of people do not put the emphasis on the pentecost. we do on advent christmas, we emphasize lent and easter. but there is no emphasis on the pentecost and the spirit. why do you think that is? and am i right about that and? >> i like to think it is sometimes a very sad commentary for us. because folk in our humanness want to follow. it is easy to say i am a follower of jesus christ.

but have jesus' teachings and lessons seem to indicate more of us doing and partnering and participating. so sometimes we want to be couch potatoes and watch somebody else did go the work. thank you. >> i think a couple of things. one when we think of the holy spirit as holy ghost, i'm not sure that is unendearing term if a lot of folks. it is kind of confusing. the second is, for a lot of churches that aren't necessarily emotional or pentecostal in their outlook, they'll say what does pentecost have to do with us? and we definitely can be empowered by the spirit without being pentecostal in our practice. i think we need to claim that. that the spirit moves with us, whether we are a quiet congregation or a loud congregation. the spirit can still be present and active and moving. >> very good. very good. we'll come back to that. thank you for this introduction to the spirit and to pentecost.

we're with carol estes and jim hopkins. please join us. c1

. welcome back to mosaic. we have been talking about pentecost and that is why we are in the red. red symbolizes the spirit coming on that day of

pentecost. in acts 2 you see a diversity of people responding to the spirit. we have talked a lot about the spirit and your definition of the spirit. tell us a little bit more about what you think happened at pentecost. >> well, good question can be asked about pentecost. was it primarily auditory experience or a hearing experience? was it speaking in tongues or hearing in a new way? i don't know if we can solve that. but i know that listening is always very important. and pentecost is a challenge to listen and hear each other in new ways and trust that the spirit will be in the process of earnest listening. and listening is one way with can heal the planet. >> i think, too, as what jim was saying, it was definitely a process of discernment, and deep feeling. and feeling the movement and

the presence of the holy spirit that had not been present to them before. especially with the absence of jesus. so there was more of a fo po at me? enyou havesomedy a dynamic personality jesus had in that you are era the energy can be focused outwardly instead of inwardly. okay, i was looking at scriptures on this day. not only do you have the acts 2, but you have the genesis, and then you have an alternative passage in ezekiel the dry bones. i was looking ahead to see exactly what those scriptures are. what is your approach to some of those scriptures? >> i also like to add in, john 19. >> that's right. >> where jesus comes into the

closed room with the disciplesrked that are locked behind doors in fear and he breaths on them the spirit and says go forgive as i have forgiven you. and beintitioners of ut be ts of e unity. amongst all people. that god is not a god of exclusion. that is why the spirit shows up representing so many different tongues, so many different languages, i am here and available and abundantly open and accepting of all people. >> i like that. you know in our society right now, we are going through a lot of racial conflict. not starting with ferguson, but even further back. >> yes. >> and of course we had baltimore that is still on our

heart and mind. do you see the spirit breaking down some of the visions and the conflicts that are going on? how would the spirit work in that, do you think? >> it's a complex situation. complex and challenging. and i think if folk were more willing to see that the spirit is in each of us, and that it is universal, and that there is no difference, but the spirit is calling us to be humane toward one another, so that we could have a conversation about our differences. about our similarities, so that we can greet the light and the hope of god in us, then we can stop warring against one another. especially in our african american communities. we need to see the light of god and the presence of the holy spirit moving so we can stop doing harm to ourselves. >> the spirit is about both truth and reconciliation. and we have to start with the

truth. the spirit convicts us. the spirit reminds us of some really harsh and awful realities, the racial disparities that continue to exist in our communities. disparities of opportunity and education. ultimately disparity of hope. the spirit starts first by constricting us of this and then moving forward to hope and reconciliation. there is no justice without some truth. we have to start with the truth and one of the things we see in the scriptures that spirit sometimes convicts and says this isn't right. this isn't right. at least is a first step to moving forward. >> those are excellent thoughts by both talk a tr reili thought aboudesmond tutu, bringing people together and asking them to confess and then

forgiveness comes and reconciliation comes. >> if pentecost could result in a movement like that in our communities, oh my goodness. >> be tremendous. >> you know he shouted among the people that have them raise their hands and shout v s p. which means very special people. he says we are very special people, because god loves united states. and we made an image of god. and it is not something we certain, it is the gift of god. we wanted everyone to know that. and not just his own people, but all people, which is what you have been saying i don't want we could say v s pis very spirited people. well we are going to come back to this spirited conversation. thank you for being with us. please join us with carol and jim hopkins. carol estes of elmhurst and jim hopkins at or

c1 . welcome back to mosaic. this is pentecost and we have been talking about the power of the spirit breaking down barriers and uniting us and bringing us together. i was telling the colleagues at my congregation, i tried to encourage them to wear red on pentecost. they have at fairfield. i'm really pleased with it. again what is the symbol of the red? >> the red is the fire the spirit the thrust of the movement of the holy spirit that just lights us up. the vibrancy and the celebratory color and different cultures, they wear red. instead of wearing black. because it is a marking of

celebration. >> it is the tongues of flame that descend on us. so carol said it exactly correctly. now you mentioned earlier sometimes communities feel they are not casematic, they don't have the spirit. some people who are pentecostal and charismatic do not feel they have the spirit unless we have a lot of the motion. could you say something about that? >> that continues. a life of the church since that first pentecost. paul talks about it. how do the gift of tongues fit into our life? he struggles with it. and says it is a gift. it shouldn't be regarded as a market. if they don't have it, you are not part of the family. he struggles with that and it continues to be a struggle in our communities. if i don't feel great passion, if i'm not ready to shout, i

have to answer, at least spirit in my experience is a still, small voice. we have to own that perspective as well. >> absolutely. >> i think the spirit of most of all, and which you all seem to allude to the fact it brings a community that loves one another and is able to proclaim that word, and hear that word. >> yes. >> i think so. >> and it invites us to go out and share that word. and what does it look like? it doesn't have to look like what your sharing looks like. it doesn't have to look like what jim's sharing looks like. but it looks like in a powerful, peaceful way in how spirit is inspiring us communal and individually. because it is about the good news. i came across this wonderful quote from helen keller the other day. she said the most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen, and even cannot be heard.

but has to be felt with the heart. >> amen. >> seems like pentecost, you are able to see it and hear it and feel it. >> i would like to, for many of your viewers who do not know that i am visually impaired. so, as a result of that, folks often ask, how is it that you know that somebody has entered? i feel the energy. i think that is where my thrust of ministry comes from is that internal feeling. and i'm always inviting folk to go in and feel the power of the holy spirit moving and empowering you and inviting you to activity. so that it may not be this magical, mystical thing. it may not be something that just pow, but it may be just that violent moving of that m- word, motion, that you can feel, that brings you such joy, that warms your heart and it changes you in that instance. >> that is powerful.

i imagine people who come to you for counseling will feel a great deal of that. is that because you think of the extra dimension you might seem to have? >> i think absolutely. because i don't see you, i feel you. and i have to listen very carefully for the nuances that are being spoken that i might not see in your body language, in order for me to kind of get a gist of what is being said. because far too often we get trapped, i think sometimes in the external. we are looking out to see where is this moving? where is god moving? when god could absolutely be moving inside. but we are not listening because we are more focused on our physical scene and witnessing. >> that is dynamic. jim? you hear young people ask each other, do you feel me? that could mean a lot of things, do you hear me? do you understand me? do you respect me? but it could also be a very

spiritual questi r pentt. el me? and i is altoseac ener of e twardly. anthinth pe sath are saying do you feel me? do you feel me coming authentically with peace? i think us models, us senior community, if we have an intention of peace, how that can be so pervasive in our communities. >> that takes us back to the baltimore, oakland questions. most of them take to the streets. that is what they are saying. do you feel us? >> and do you feel our pain? and how are we addressing that? >> dr. king said the cry or the riots are the cries of the

unheard. we know it does not justify, but explains some of the pain. >> absolutely. >> i know a lot of people say wow, why are they rioting? and we don't endorse that but we understand some of it. >> a response to the pains being expressed in the riots the answer to the pain is in spiritual realitinthat se pele feeling. >> awe lewded to the inequity in our society. it is just so great. >> and with the pentecostal movement, and i'm not saying a pentecostal movement, but the pentecost of the movement, it is calling us to be at the table. that is why it was given to everybody equally for us to be at that table and to hear one another. amen. we have to come back to our

last segment. but you have brought tremendous enlightenment to the spirit. thank you for being here. please join us for our last segment here on mosaic. i'm ron swisher. it is great to host these two great guests with us.

. i'm ron swisher and it has been a great joy to have this program on pentecost. i mentioned earlier that we were on youtube. and i'm sure this will be on youtube, thanks to kpix. because this is a lot of information about pentecost. it is because reverend carol estes and reverend jim hopkins

has been with us. in our final few minutes, what would you add to what you have said? anything that we could walk away with on that spirit? because you have said so much. >> i'm thinking about during may at lakeshore we have had this emphasis, on pentecost, we are going to talk about the importance of fresh air and the challenge is going to all of us is receive a breath of fresh air and be a breath of fresh air in your communities. to play with that analogy, and how important fresh air is in this, on our planet right now. >> i recall when you were in oakland you were active in community organizing. some of that i'm sure still affects your ministry? >> yeah, there is an organization based here in san francisco called california interfaith power and light that

addresses ecological concerns, creation, care concerns. and so yeah, pentecost a breath of fresh air. >> that's right. i think grace church has a lot to do with that. >> right. >> recognizing that pentecost comes after 40 days after easter and it is a celebration of the resurrection. it is our gift we aring given through pentecost to be empowered and to be motivated and inspired to get up and become active and go out into the world and do some good. do some good. as we talked last time you know in our community we are building our garden and we are inspired simply by the spirit to feed people. to address the need where there is a food need. so i say be empowered by the holy spirit. be not afraid.

for it takes each and every one of those to become actively involved to make a change and a change for the better. >> amen. perfect love cast out fear. so you have expressed it greatly. >> and that garden is putting some oxygen back into the environment. >> and good food in folks's bellies. >> you know, we only have a few seconds. but christmas is a long time, advent. easter has a time. pentecost sometimes has that one day. we should expand that. >> we have to do more to do what we can in the time that we can, and not let it just be about one day. but that we keep going back so we can refresh our memory. >> amen. >> you talked about broadening. in the christian calendar, ordinary time follows pentecost. some folks have gone changing

ordinary time to growing time. good. thank you both. elmhurst is on? >> 16598 3rd avenue right off plymouth. we sit right on the corner in the sunshine. >> and lakeshore? >> right on bus line 26. thank you for being with us. please join them in their worship services. and you welcome to mine way out in fairfield at community. i'm ron swisher. it is great to have you this morning on pentecost.

live from the "cbs bay area news" studios, this is the kpix 5. live and streaming live on the "cbs bay area news", this is kpix 5, we have more on the fire bur burning. and more on the oakland city leaders calling out for the violence and calling for justice. a major win for the housing advocates and a major opportunity for those staging the longest housing strike in oakland history. good morning. i'm devin fehely, and it is july