welcome back to "face the nation." massachusetts, who, before that, led the justice department's civil rights division during the clinton administration. he joins us this morning from richmond, massachusetts. thanks for making the time. >> a pleasure. good morning. >> so you're out of politics now. you're focused at the kennedy school of harvard is on leadership. how comfortable were you with the speech that joe biden gave when he compared changes that republicans made in voting laws in georgia to jim crow and violent enforced segregation of another era. are you comfortable with that kind of rhetoric? >> you know what? a friend of mine says we've been treating our democracy for a

long time in this country as if it would tolerate limitless abuse without breaking. and when you add up the 19 states and their vote suppression laws recently and you look at that alongside the amount of money so much of it dark, which has been permitted into our politics and policymaking, the radical purging rules, the ways in which we have distorted the democratic process as a means to achieve better lives for citizens, it is deeply worrisome and it'sn worseecsef eio deniers. eb the president's speech. anyone of us would choose different words but i think it is great that the president calls things what they are. and also reminds us that the purpose of democracy is a means to assure liberty and justice for all. we have to care about that process and that purpose for those reasons.

>> governor, in our focus group that our audience will see of trump supporters, one pointed out that democrats raised objections in 2000 and wouldn't let them go. they raised objections in 2004, some wouldn't let them go. and in 2016, raised objections and wouldn't let them go. and they consider democratic criticism of republican objections to what they saw in 2020 hypocritical. respond to that. >> well, i think it's important for us to hear that, first of all, and to -- and really try to process that. i think i experienced that differently. i think when donald trump -- if what you mean objections to donald trump winning the presidency, i don't think there was any democrat calling the election itself illegitimate, because the outcome was surprisingly disappointing to democrats. i think it's important, though, to acknowledge there is frustration that runs pretty deep throughout the political spectrum about democracy as a path to a better future.

and that is because, i think, we have been treating it in this -- in these careless ways for a long, long time. it's a whole other order of magnitude, and that is serious enough, but a whole other order of magnitude to say that democracy is illegitimate unless the outcome is the one you want or the one you voted for. i don't think that's what democrats were objecting to in the policy choices of donald trump and those who have supported him. that's a very, very different thing. >> governor, as you well know, democracy is sustained on a generational basis. you deal with leadership and the question thereof with younger american students. what is their orientation to democracy? do they want direct democracy, do you have to explain we have representational democracy, and what is their level of optimism or pessimism? >> what great questions. i think the students at the

kennedy school, the people i meet around the country give me encouragement and should encourage all of us. their sense of patriotism runs deep. i think their sense of urgency is also natural and a thing not to be tamped down, because there are unmet needs, many of which, you know, cross all kinds of differences. reach people in every part of the country and were undeniable in the experience we all shared going through the covid-19 pandemic. i think that the notion of being engaged, of taking responsibility for this generation and generations to come is enormously important and encou encouraging. one of the things i try to encourage in them is that they look for and think about and reject the false choices so many of our would-be leaders tell us. you don't have to hate the members of another party to be a

member in good standing of your own, in the same way you don't have to hate business to advocate for social and economic justice or to hate the police to believe black lives matter. but we are sold so many of these kinds of false choices in our current political discourse, and i keep encouraging the young people who want to be involved and who are trying to encourage others of all generations to be engaged, to be alert to those false choices and reject them. the fact is, most people aren't buying 100% of what either party is selling. >> governor, do you think the business and corporate community in america needs to be involved more in the democracy debate, and if so, how? >> i think the business community is becoming more involved. business leaders in the democracy debate. the question of where they stand as an entity on any given issue, any given policy, is another story. and that's more delicate for businesses. but the question about whether

participatory democracy is a thing to celebrate and edge cou -- encourage and where it is to be called out and condemned, that's where business leaders have to show leadership on. >> former governor of massachusetts, deval patrick, thank you for your time. we'll be right back.

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wrong, they will always be trying to go after him for something, and it will be the focus. >> i believe that if it really was about documents, that it could have been handled between the lawyers as it had been handled. you don't raid the home of a former president like he's a drug dealer down the street, with the lights and the guys with the guns and it wasn't necessary. can i trust that what they say that they clsupposedly found is really found? i can't. i'll never believe it. >> right. when senator lindsey graham, joanne, said that if the former president is indicted, there will be riots in the streets, do you agree with that and do you feel comfortable with a senator saying something like that?

>> no, i wish lindsay graham had not voiced it that way. i think if he's indicted, there will be a lot of unhappy people, but i do not believe that maga republicans are going to be rioting in the street. >> i don't see rioting. if there was going to be rioting in the street, it would be when the last election was stolen, not over on this issue. >> steve, you just said the last election was stolen. how was it stolen? >> i saw the video out of georgia. they cleared everybody out of the polling place, and as soon as everybody was gone, they pulled suitcases full of ballots out of underneath tables and started processing them. the next morning, the entire outcome was different. >> steve, does it matter to you that the georgia bureau of investigation looked into that, and decided itself that there was nothing wrong there?

>> i have to believe my own two eyes. i watched it happen on video. yeah, we know video can be doctored today. but i'm not buying it. i'm a pretty bright guy. what i see, i believe. >> does it matter that two u.s. attorneys, both of them appointed by former president p, looked it and did not consider that activity fraudulent, does that matter to you? election was stolen?, makes me 0 >> i wouldn't necessarily say that it was stolen, but i believe it was unfair. people don't know their history, because they don't know how democrats argued over the 2000 election. obviously, they said the supreme court elected ed george w. bush. and then again in 2004, it was the same thing. >> so that point, and i don't disagree with you at all.

i covered 2000 and 2004. i well remember the instances you described them. you described them accurately. but i remember a phrase that my grandmother used to use is two wrongs don't make a right. i wonder how you process that wisdom from my grandmother in this context? >> i think two wrongs don't make a right, but i don't think hypocrisy is very flattering, as well. >> joanne, i understand that there is a history on both sides. i'm just wondering if you're comfortable and if you have any anxiety about the future of desecracyeshat as an excgainst one and we neveret anywhere. >>ou're absolutelyre if every side is going to say after they lose, we really didn't lose, then, yeah, i mean, elections will become something that nobody is ever going to be happy with. >> you just said the question of democracy. isn't democracy arguing, de

debating? so if the president has said that you can question elections, i mean, you can question everything in a democracy. >> sure. >> it's getting -- somebody like me who is not a republican or a democrat, but i do support trump, it's getting really old hearing democracy, democracy, democracy. because what we're doing is part of a democracy. and the way joe biden and the democrats use it as a weapon, the term "democracy" has become a weapon, and it just means that if you're afraid that republicans are a threat to democracy, what you're telling me is that you're afraid that republicans are a threat to your power and your agenda. and so i think we need to go back and have a better understanding of what democracy actually is. >> steve, let me follow up with

you. what are your feelings about the upcoming midterms, do you have confidence in the election results you will see reported that night or the following days? >> no. my confidence in that area has been shaken for a long time. >> mary, same question, how do you feel about the midterms? >> for the most part, i'm confident. >> joanne, how about you? >> umm, the democratic party has spent a lot of money to prop up what they call maga candidates in the upcoming november election. candidates that they figured once they got there, the democrat could beat. but then the president the other night basically told everyone that we can't have the maga republicans in office at all, or we're going to destroy the country.

so i'm -- i don't know. it concerns me. i thought we were going to do very well in november. >> steve, if i could ask you, if former president trump were to not declare for 2024, do you have an alternative who is a favorite of yours? >> ron desantis. i would love to see a desantis/trump ticket. >> mary, do you have an alternate favorite already? >> yeah, definitely governor desantis. but i have family in florida and i would hate to steal such a great governor for them? >> joanne? >> definitely ron desantis all the way. >> joanne, let me follow up with you, what is so attractive about him? >> when desantis sees an issue, he takes it on. he's not afraid to take on anything, nor is donald trump. >> mary, your thoughts about

governor desantis? >> i think republican politicians need to payion to h governs and how he deals with the press. he goes on offense like we haven't seen except with president trump. >> i appreciate your time. but i want to open up the floor if anybody wants to add anything that is on their minds? >> i am a maga republican, and i'm not a threat to anybody. and i just appreciate the fact of being able to say that. i don't want to hurt anyone. i don't want to destroy democracy. i want this country to be great again. that's what i want. and that's all it means, maga, to be great again. make america great again. that is something i would like to see happen, hopefully sooner rather than later. and thank you for listening to me. >> and we'll be back in a moment.

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be traced back to online extremism. jared holt, a research manager, and karen kornbluh, the head of german fund's digital innovation and democracy initiative. we began by asking them to describe the relationship between the internet and democracy. >> the internet, in the way that it's monetized in the current age, is through attention. you can get a lot of attention saying crazy stuff and we're seeing a lot of people do that, frankly. so, you know, as long as the business model of the internet is built around trying to captivate audiences and keep them clicking, reacting, whether that's through rage or die-hard support, it's going to be in conflict with democracy, because democracy is not about what gets the most attention. it's supposed to be about what the best ideas are, how do we

compromise and move forward? and this attention based economy online is incongruent with that mission. >> karen, complete the sentence, the internet's relationship to democracy is? >> it's fraught. it's definitely fraught. in the early days of the internet, it offered incredible promise, and it still does. all of these movements, black lives matter, metoo, were able to gain steam online and it continues to offer the promise of educating people, informing them, connecting them. but these algorithms really have contributed to the crisis we're in. and the platforms have a real responsibility to fix them and to help tuck the problem that they have helped create. >> jared, from a libertarian perspective, one might argue, look, people are out there, they decide what they want to consume. there is agency, as you indicated. so the internet isn't the problem. these people are out there, they

have their beliefs and will pursue it. or is it that you're arguing the internet is an accelerator and multiplier? >> it's an accelerator and multiplier. this conspiratorial content, exed exi in america for as long as america has been around, right? these platforms are designed guiding people toward more extreme content. what they're not taking down, what they're giving a free pass to, people who are using these platforms to manipulate audiences and guide and steer them. >> from your perspective, is january 6th and its magnitude impossible without this multiplier accelerationist effect? >> it's very safe to say it didn't happen at the scale it did, coming together as fast as it did without the internet. a lot of attention was paid to fringe platforms like parlor after the riot. but a lot of the agitation and

calls to action were happening on main stream platforms, from main stream figures. >> for those on the right who say you're missing the whole point. the point is we get canceled, we get de-platformed and that's big tech silencing us, so our rights are being trampled. you say? >> this is the danger of the whack-a-mole solution. it raises all kinds of concerns because it takes down content, it takes down people after the fact. i would love to see the platforms not only fix their algorithms, but when they publish their terms of service, commit themselves to enforce what they have put out there. and not have so much discretion. it's this discretion that bothers people and makes them feel they can't get on these very few opportunities for speech. >> jared, what happened in these places you were describing,

btret as well , other trafficked as others after the mar-a-lago execution of a search warrant? >> these spaces online, pro-trump forums, fringe platforms, erupted with violent rhetoric, these false beliefs that the fbi or law enforcement is out to get conservatives and trump supporters specifically. but we saw a lot of violent rhetoric, taking their existing beliefs that the system is compromised, and ratcheting it up to the next level, saying we need to do something, whether that's protesting or taking it as far as that individual in cincinnati did, trying to breach the fbi office there. >> karen, what could congress do? >> there's bipartisan concern, but there's really not bipartisan action. the proposals on algorithm accountability offer real

promise, but so far they don't include enem mechanism. given the tinder box, we have to turn to the platforms and ask them to step up. >> what are you looking at in terms of these realities, they're not going to change before the midterm elections and acceleration effects on the web heading towards the midterms? >> there are two things the platforms could do. first, they should stop siloing people, directing people into these bubbles that reinforce extremist world views and don't let in opposing viewpoints. and second, they should work with the providers of important civic information, people like election administration officials to amplify accurate information so people can be empowered and actually know what's going on. >> what does this conversation and these underlying realities mean as america grapples with what appears to be a rise in

white nationalism? >> the internet has been a powerful tool for extremist movements in the u.s. it's been a big accelerant, and we've seen platforms, they all have kind of red lines that content is not supposed to cross over. if it crosses over, if it's particularly violent, particularly racist, that kind of material will get banned. but the content that walks right up to that line, that sort of tiptoes on that line, is among the highest performing content on these websites. it's not a level playing field. and that unlevel playing field has been, you know, definitely an accelerant of these issues we're seeing rise up in american prominence. the kind of stuff we're talking about today, whether it's misinformation, conspiracy theorys, et cetera, everybody is vulnerable to it. rich people, poor people, smart

people, not so smart people, anyone can fall victim to this. it has to do with the manipulative nature of the content. and i think it's important to stress that. >> we'll be right back. i literally use this every day, to make my house smell amazing. after i make the bed... after i catch my dog on the couch... so i can wear my jacket or jeans one more time, before i wash them again. it even makes shoes smell fresh! it doesn't cover up odors with scent... but actually eliminates them. over one thousand uses. febreze fabric refresher. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

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that's it for us today. we thank you for watching. margaret will be back next week for "face the nation." i'm major garrett. check out this time space wormhole i creat how's it work? let me see your togo, and i'll show you.

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york. ♪ this is the "cbs overnight news." we begin tonight with weather extremes. from coast to coast. in georgia, states of emergencies have been declared in two counties. they were swamped by flash flooding after more than a foot of rain fell in the last 24 hours. in indiana, at least one person is dead tonight after rushing water caused widespread devastation. while in the west, there are several cities enduring triple-digit temperatures and a severe september heat wave. cbs' jeff nguyen is in los angeles tonight and leads off our coverage. jeff, good evening. >> reporter: good evening to yo