>> good morning. welcome to mosaic. i am ron swisher. i would like to greet you with a e from hildegard. she said all of creation is a symphony, a joy and jubilation. i feel a great deal of joy this morning. first i would like to welcome my commy united methodist church where i have been serving for going on five months now. it was five weeks when i greeted you last. d it is still a joy. also it is a

joy to welcome one of my friendd colleagues who is one of the leg theologians for the last 30 yeas as he has written a lot of theo, spirituality. dr. matthew fox is is with us. great to see you. >> thank you. always great to see you. >> great. you have another book out. this is on hildegard. why hildegard? >> well the catholic church cand her a saint in october and made her a doctor of the church. thee have only been three known wome. it's one thing to be a saint bua doctor of the church carries spl energy with it, i guess. they're i guess. they're saying hey, this is someone to study. i find find it ironic because the currt vatican is not exactly, say, a

supporter of women or women's issues. for them to name her a doctor of the church is thoroughly ironic. the last chapter is called is hildegard a a trojan horse? i think she is because she's shaking up the church today just as she did in her time. because she does brinn the divine feminine, something that the pope is not real at ease talking about to put it mildly. >> subtitle is a saint for our . >> she has all this power. she's power. she's a marvelous musician, a genius. she wrote te first opera by 300 years, older than any in the west. she wrote over ten books. she was a scientist, a healer. she wrote s on healing. in fact there is a healing center in southern germany based entirely on her ts

that's been going over 30 years, years, run by doctors. they're healing people in business. >> isn't that something? >> why did they take so long toe her? >> that's what i was going to a. >> when she was 81, she was ex . they were forbidden to sit in te office and all this for a year because archbishop didn't like the fact that she had buried a y on her property. she wouldn't budge and let him steal the bod. they had this fight for a year d she wrote a letter saying you have silence the music, meaning her music. she said all prophets prophets need music. you have silenced the music and she signed the letter. at the d she said those who silence music music in this lifetime will go to a place in the next where

there is no music. that's her definition of hell. she says heaven is music and hell is no . she told the archbishop in a cre way that she's going to hell. i think this is one reason they pd canonizing her. >> martin luther said he didn'tt to go to heaven if there was no laughter there. >> good for him. speaking of luther, said hildegard was first was first protestant. that's amg since she was 400 years older ad was benedict an us. she was protecting, wrote fierce letter, preached all over germany and switzerland and main theme was corruption of clergy and how justice is being ignored. >> i thought it was interestingt she preached attime. >> exactly. again, the irony. a papacy that doesn't allow women to preach, throwing nuns under

the bus at this time in north a. yet they're canonizing. they don't have a clue what they've done. that's why i call it a trojan horse, unleashing this ag figure for people to pay attentn to. >> i have been excited about th. i had it ordered and i read it n about a week. it's just so compelling, the information. >> i am glad. >> we will talk more in future s and maybe make references to other books. >> okay. >> please join us with dr. matthew fox on mosaic. i am ron.

>> welcome back to mosaic. you see this title here. in the 12th 12th century, a great saint now that we have been speaking to dr. matthew fox in his latest book. dr. fox, you have written many books on her. >> i have. i wrote two previously. one is on her paintings called illuminations of hildegard. they were amazing and based on her visions. she was a visionary and had visions that really healed her. they heal us, wake us up. very powerful pieces. i did a book on on that with her commentary, what she says about them. >> so she was a painter as wells a musician.

>> yes. and she was an architect. she designed her two monasteries she started. though she started life in a male monastery, keltic monastery that bisexual if you will, women one end and men at the other. after she got famous for her first book, more came to study with her and there wasn't more room.e took the women and their dowries their dowries and they left and went to their place. nothing haunted hildegard. >> the illuminations are alwayst you hear about first. that's what i hear. >> is it? >> that's the paintings. >> they came in her visions, any came in her dreams and with wors very often. figures in the paintings speak to her. in one of them i begin the book with

this. it's a beautiful young lady. the lady says i am creator creator of the world. my name is is love and i have created the world and everything in it. eveg is good and beautiful including human beings. it's a pure passage ever what i call original blessing, goodness of creation. of course thee logically, wisdom, sophia. >> that's right. >> so hildegard was this wisdome speaking through her you might say. >> that's the first time i comes original wisdom. >> that's her phase. she talks t original wisdom. life's journeys a tent that we are born with as a baby, life's journey is setting up this tent she says which will be a home where wisdom is set. she gets that from john 1 about wisdom comes to set up his tent in israel. >> that's right. >> she knew the bible very wellg

benedict and sang the song sevel times a day, every day of her life. she has this wisdom literature of the bible which scholars agree is historical to jesus. he was steeped in the wisdom too which was very cente. joy and jubilation of creation.s her world view and one reason she's so pertinent today. we have to fall in love with creatn all over again because obviously because obviously we are treating it, you know, very badly. >> you mention love and you alsn word and light that's so much in in her. >> right. a tradition of cosmic christ, in the beginning it was the word. those passes in john 1 1 come from wisdom literature. t is sophia too. that's wisdom. ts where love, light come in. one

of my chapters is on howard t meeting hildegard. he says god of love and god of life are oftn celebrated. when they do, you have to turn to the god of lifed has the same teaching. you are light, you are life, you resurrt everything there is. she goes on on and on. she's static in her language and spirituality like that quote you started with. shs full of joy. >> thurmon talks a lot about lie being alive. >> exactly. that's what i like in thurmon. he says the real amazement is life is alive. youn take that for granted. you can tell that thurmon is high on

life. one should. others say god god is life. aquinas says god is is life. the gift of life is ex. >> a section also appreciates tt you had mentioned read jesus and and disinherited. >> took it with him to jail evey time he went to jail. >> 39 times. >> 39 times. jesus and the disinherited. it was such a powerful book, one of the early books too. in it he is critiquing christianity saying the church has betrayed jesus. e are his words. he wrote that before the civil rights movement movement really gathered steam. >> that's right. >> king of course is powerfullyd by thurmon. i went to india and

brought home nonviolent method from him. so he was really i think the spiritual genius and the elder. he was criticized for for not being in the streets so much. that's not the elder's role necessarily. it is to holdt together and make sure that the values and spirituality is viewed through the movement. i think history will demonstrate t thurmon played an essential rol. he was stabbed and asked for onn at his bed. that was howard thurmon. >> it's a great history and i tk how you link hildegard and her influence is tremendous. hildeg, again, what would you say some of the issues outside of the ecology and environment and justice she emphasized, what otr things do you think she would be

be addressing these days? >> well, corruption in the chur. she wrote the pope. >> let's come back to that in a. >> okay. >> please join us as we speak od with dr. matthew fox.

>> welcome back to mosaic. you see these pictures here, i mentn hildegard at my church at community united there in fairfd and one of my members was in germany a couple weeks ago. her name is karen mets and she's chn of our worship committee. she said i was just there. i thought thought it was providential she shared these pictures with me ae days ago. i thought i would bring them for you this sunday

morning. you see these pictures of her and at the end will be a picture of the abby representing representing where she did a great deal of her ministry. thal for that, karen. >> perfect timing. >> right. perfect timing. someoe said it was ironic, coincidencei think providential. >> yes. then there is the picture. >> yes. the artist in the picture is i think trying to show the nun -- this half is the the nun with the habit but this half is meant to be a modern woman, with the hair and all. >> okay. >> i think they're trying to sas woman should not be locked up in in a monastery. we need to unleash her power. >> didn't she say at one point e wanted to be useful. >> she wrote that near the end f her life. she told her sisters she wanted to be useful and

remembered. what's interesting is the monastery, the nuns, they they kept all her work in pristine condition for 800 years. the paintings, the letters, the ten books, all of it, the music, all of it, until 1944, american bombers are going are going to germany. they said we have to pack these up and make them safe. they photographed everything and pacd them up and moved them. they were fire bombed and destroyed.e have the first generation copie. imagine that, pristine for 800 . it is something. it is so rare.t makes me think how many other ws writings have been lost just because they didn't have a monay preserving them for 800 years. e was not that well known really until recently. in germany she

was recognized as holy woman and and all that. beyond germany yot hear of her. i met a lot of jerseys plan people and never heard of her. >> before break, we mentioned ae about justice. >> yes, she's so fierce about j. here is one statement she wroteo the pope. she said catholic chair of peter will be shaken through erroneous teaching. vind of the lord smolder with sorrowe recognized as despicable. yet no no one will dare raise a sharp in assistance call for repentan. she's writing about this and ths is the kind of thing people are feeling today over the pedophile the pedophile scandal, cover upg the hierarchy in the catholic church today. she wrote the pope pope and said you are surrounded surrounded by men who are so fel that they cackle like hens and

keep themselves awake at night cackling like hens because they're afraid of themselves. i say whoa this is the description the description of think of today, bureaucracy that surrounds the pope today. she doesn't take any prisoners. shes very strong. >> right. >> she wrote the emperor and sad you are acting like a baby. man up. her bottom line is always j. that's what she tells the pope.e says you are ignoring lady just. she wrote the king letters like, the emperor. >> at that time. >> at that time, too. it's not like she had an army backing her army backing her up. that was hr vision. i think they felt that

the visions were from a source deep and they were afraid to crs her. >> i remember reading she was hd on clergy. she called them lazy. lazy. >> yes. that was her main complaint, they were not prophetic enough. she says thate says you are too comfortable. yu are lazy. she says wake up. how can we live without blood and without passion? she's very pase about justice. she says how can you see the poor and so forth and not be disturbed and do something? she has a marvelous balance of the mystical and prophetic. >> right. >> that's one more reason why se speaks loudly to us today, i th. she's a con template and activi. that's what we need. >> toward the end, you talk abot

main street and wall street. >> main street and wall street. >> how she would probably be prc in that. >> i think she would have wordsr wall street. there is a passaget greed. she goes after greed. i think that names a lot of wall . she's absolutely fierce. she sas that greed and over abundance pleases no one. you always want more. >> you are bored. >> yes. that's right. she says greed creates boredom. you can see she analyzes human nature. e goes through all the virtues and virtues and vices and tries to match them against each other. s part of her healing, her work as as a healer. in that way she's a a therapist, a moral therapist.s saying we go over the edge with our addictions and greed. >> an amazing woman. >> she was an amazing woman.

>> i was reading this and as yoe it, i was underlining. i just stopped on every single page. it single page. it was so compelling. >> her language is so alive. she alive. she grabs you with her l. >> right. the joy, the light, the justice. she called it the daughters of justice. >> daughters of justice, divinee is there. she says god is the circle. we are embraced by the arms of the mystery of god. very god. very maternal. >> so it is always inclusive. >> exactly. >> we'll come back for the end f this. i hate to see it end. >> i >> i do too. >> thank you for being with us.n us in our last segment with dr. matthew fox. i am ron swisher.

>> i hope you have been with use abhildegard. in these last few minutes, say to us how you made the connection with hildegard to thurmon to einstei, mary oliver. >> bringing her to the 21st ceny and it came to me, why not have her on the same page as einstei? hildegard meets mary oliver, hod thurmon as we spoke of and so forth. it's a great way to bring bring her to our time. it's amazing her ideas do match some of einstein's questions. conscis

and the world today. it's a big question today in science. how much consciousness is there in the world? >> focuses light. >> that's right. and hildegard was struck by light regur talked to her. hildegard answers answers a question, says there is no creature that lacks interior life. every stone, every star, every galaxy has interior life. that's her position and it is worth considering. it's a very buddhist idea. >> the stones even talk. >> yes. even the stones talk. bt you have to be patient. it takes takes 10,000 years to speak one. but they did speak much faster. >> that is good. >> it is good to put her in them

with these 21st century souls. i century souls. i think she's where she belongs. >> this has been great. i know t you have 30 other books we could could have talked about. but i m sure we are going to invite you back because you are always writing. >> and you are always reading. >> so when it comes out, i wille there. i am glad i got a hold of of you this time because last time you were in rome doing a book tour there. they haitalian as german. original blessings, pope's war. i was able to get you this time. >> i appreciate that. >> thank you for coming. >> i have enjoyed it very much. >> thank you. we have been blessed to have dr. matthew foxe are fortunate he lives in the by area because he travels in difft parts of the country and different parts of the world. as the world. as we were talking i thought of dr. king. one thing he said is everybody can be great. all you have to do is

serve. and everybody can serve.u don't have to have your subject match your verb to serve. all you have to have is a heart full heart full of love and a soul gd by grace. so we hope that you go go forth and be persons of grace grace and love and doing the justice, loving mercy and kindness and welcome humbly befe god.

>> live from the cbs bay area studios, this is cbs news. gunpoint in oakland , we will tell you about it. > >> after weeks of searching, the the police say they have the stockton serial killer in custody. that arrest by just

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