former homeland security secretaries jeh johnson and michael chertoff. gentlemen, i like being able to have you both here because you both dealt with a very hard problem set. so, a lot of people have opinions but you actually know what it's like to be in the job. let me give you a really hard one, which is what to do about the southern border. in the last year, 2.5 million migrants, roughly, have been encountered. that's a record high. the governor of texas is boasting he sent more than 13,000 immigrants to new york, to chicago, to washington and now to philadelphia, where bus loads arrived this week. secretary chertoff, these migrants have legal status because they're going through asylum. are the asylum laws too generous

in this country? >> well, i mean, we can certainly take a look at the asylum laws but we obey the international law and now we have the issues of ukrainians fleeing with the war going on in ukraine. one of the things the administration has done, which i think is helpful, is they've moved the evaluation process down to those agents who are actually in the field, to speed it up, to make sure you can determine whether there's a colorable claim, if not, send people back. they're also working to resource and streamline the process of making final adjudications. that is all to the good, but it's not going to happen overnight. also i know the administration is working with nonprofits to create safe locatins that people can stay while their claims are being adjudicated.

i think stunts like what governor abbott has done don't really address the problem. it's simply a way of getting attention over the backs of people who are fleeing genuine crises in other parts of the world. >> because to get asylum, you need to show fear of persecution, torture, race, religion, nationality, political opinions. that's what these people did and were allowed in, just to be clear. former secretary johnson, one of the things the biden administration just lost, though, is one of the tools they were using to turn people away. over 1 million of those encounters i talked about people were expelled under title 42, according to custom and border protection. this was a pandemic-era policy that said because of covid, people didn't necessarily need to get in. to the country. that goes away at the end of december. what then happens? >> well, first, margaret, i have to be honest about the asylum

laws and processes. it takes six years for asylum processing once someone enters the country. the bar to qualify initially and establish a case of credible fear is relatively low, something like 70% of migrants qualify who seek it. and the ultimate qualification for asylum percentage there is only about 20%. and it's six years in between. migrants know this. and so we've got to develop a system where we can be more expeditiously deal with these claims and look at the credible fear standard. i know my politicians on the left wouldn't -- >> no politician is going to take that vote. >> it can be done possibly through regulation and it should be looked at. in terms of title 42, when cdc first announced in may that it was going to lift this, i and others were opposed to it.

we thought there needed to be a more orderly transition. it is an extraorinary authority. and it's probably time now for it to go away in december. but the ability to send people back expeditiously like the administration has been doing, now needs to be replaced with something else. i think there the discussion will have to take place with mexico to more exdishesly accept people back. we sent back 1.4 million last year. using, in part, title 4 2. we need something to replace that. i think working with the government of mexico and getting them to step up is part of the answer. >> i woul like you both, very quickly, to weigh in on what happens if the republican-led congress goes away with this vow to impeach or try to impeach the current secretary of homeland security. does that mean all the things you suggested don't happen and congress is just tied in knots? secretary chertoff? >> well, it would be a very sad

day in search of what is, again, a political stunt. threatening to impeach secretary mayorkas, congress didn't do the things, for example, secretary johnson just suggested. maybe adjust the standard with respect to asylum, create more resources available to adju adjudicate and work out additional things to undermine the cartels and smugglers. it would be basically putting form over substance to go through a big performance on impeachment that's never going anywhere rather than actually working with the administration to solve the problem. >> and secretary johnson, i imagine you agree? >> margaret, what people need to know, and michael and i know this, the secretary of homeland security is focused on border security, maritime security, aviation security, cyber security, the coast guard, the secret service and a host of other things. we can't have a secretary who's

distracted by a stunt in congress in an attempt at impeachment. >> all right. thanks very much to both of you, secretaries, for weighing in. we'll be right back. hi, i'm darlene and i lost 40 pounds with golo in just eight months. golo has really taught me

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(light music) ♪♪ ♪♪ we're back for more with dr. anthony fauci. so, the white house just asked congress for another $10 billion in funding. >> yes. >> we're still technically in the middle of a pandemic even though the president said the pandemic is over. >> we really need that money for a number of reasons. one is the practical thing of outreach and psa campaigns to get people to be vaccinated. we have a long way to go to optimize our protection against covid, which is really a shame, somewhat paradox cal, that a rich country with all the vaccines that we need and we're utilizing them at a much lower level than we should be. >> i know you're planning to retire. i asked you when you would feel comfortable retiring. you said not until covid is in

the rearview mirror. you said when covid doesn't dominate the mental framework of our society. what you're saying is we're choosing not to let it dominate our mental framework but it is -- >> it's still there. there's a difference. and that's an important point i want to make. if you look at where we were a year ago at this time when omicron started to surge, we were having 800,000 to 900,000 infections and 3,000 to 4,000 deaths. i don't like reading in the newspapers or getting my report from the covid team, today we lost 400 people, today we lost 350 people. so, it's much, much better than it was, but it is not at a level low enough where we should feel we're done with it completely, because we're not. >> there have been all these house republican calls for investigations into the origins of covid and saying they're going to bring you up to capitol hill. do you think that wanes as you step down? >> well, i don't think it's going to wane for me. the republican house has said they're going to, and that's

fine with me. >> you'll appear? >> oh, okay. i'm very much in favor of legitimate oversight, absolutely. i mean, i've testified before congress, given the 38 years i've been director, literally hundreds of times. in many oversight hearings. >> it's never been this personal for you, though. i know when i talked to you a year ago, you were angry. you said, i'm just going to do my job and i'm going to be saving lives. and they're going to be lying. >> they've clearly politicized it. i'm not political, period. i've never been and anybody that knows anything about me knows that's the case. it is very clear when people are running their campaigns with an anti-fauci element to it, i mean, that's ridiculous. i mean, this is a public health issue. i'd be more than happy to explain publicly or otherwise everything that we've done. and i can defend and explain everything that we've done from a public health standpoint. >> president biden said the united states is asking china

for more data about the origins. have you seen anything that beijing has produced? >> no. you know, one of the problems is that -- and this is historic. it goes way back to bird flu, the h5n1, the original sars cov1. that the chinese, not necessarily the scientists that we know and we have dealt with and collaborated with productively for decades, but the whole establishment of political and other establishment in china, even when there's nothing at all to hide, they act secretive, which absolutely triggers an appropriate suspicion of like, what the heck is going on over there? so, right now what we would really like to know is all of the details of what went on with the original people who were infected? we keep a completely open mind as to what the origin is.

having said that, if you look at the examination by highly qualified international scientists, with no political agendas, they've published in peer-reviewed journals that the evidence is quite strong that this is a natural occurrence. does that mean we've ruled out that there was something funny going on, a leak? absolutely. and i and all of my colleagues keep an absolutely open mind. we've got to investigate every possibility because this is too important not to do that. >> have you seen anything that beijing has produced at all in terms of explanation or data? >> well, their explanation is an explanation that they will not allow us to look at the primary information. the w.h.o. went in and saw some of the data, some of which was actually quite helpful. but, you know what we need, margaret, we need a transparency and a collaboration to open

things up so that we can discuss it in a nonaccusatory way. >> exactly. >> what happens is that if you look at the anti-china approach that clearly the trump administration had right from the very beginning, and the aaccusatory nature, the chinese are going to flinch back and say, sorry, we're not going to talk to you about it, which is not correct. >> but they're not talking to the biden administration about it either. >> exactly. i think that horse is out of the barn and they're very suspicious of anybody trying to accuse them. >> one of the other things that's interesting to us when we watch how the world deals with covid is that zero covid policy in china. where they shut down almost fully cities and things. that impacts the global economy. it's why we're still dealing with this in many ways. why hasn't beijing been able to get a really effective vaccine? why do they still struggle with this like that? >> well, it's the combination of not having an effective vaccine

that they themselves made, but it's not nearly at the level of many of the other vaccines, it's just not. that's unfortunate. and not wanting to bring in vaccines from the very beginning that were highly effective, 94%, 95% effective. >> moderna -- >> the moderna, the pfizer, as well as locking down almost without a purpose. when you put restrictions, you do it to give you time to be able to do something productive so you can unloosen or loosen up the restrictions. they, at least from what we were seeing, were just rigidly closing things down, which unless you have a really, really good purpose of preparing yourself for opening, it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. >> what do you plan to do after you leave nih in december? what's next for you? >> you know, i don't know, margaret. the reason i don't know is i want to strictly stick to the ethical guidelines of not

negotiating what my next position, wherever that may be, in a university or in a foundation or in -- whatever until i actually step down. i want to continue to write and to lecture and utilize what i will have outside of a government position. what do i have? i have 54 years of experience as a scientist with the nih. i have 38 years of experience leading the largest and most important infectious disease research institution of the world. and i've had the privilege of advising seven presidents. i could use that experience, that know-how, that judgment to help others, to write about it, to lecture about it, and, perhaps, to encourage at a time of anti-science the best and the brightest among the young to at least consider a career in science and public health and, importantly, in public service. if i can do that after i step down, i think that will be, you know, something that i would be

pleased with. >> we'll be watching. dr. fauci, thank you for your time today. we'll be right back. when you humble yourself under the mighty hand of god, in due time he will exalt you. hi, i'm joel osteen. i'm excited about being with you every week. i hope you'll tune in. you'll be inspired, you'll be encouraged. i'm looking forward to seeing you right here. you are fully loaded and completely equipped for the race that's been designed for you.

democratic governor jared polis who joins us this morning from boulder, colorado. governor polis, i want to ask you about the shooting in colorado springs that you recently went through. i'm hoping the governor can still hear me. it looks like we just lost that feed. so, we'll be back with you in a moment. we'll take a quick commercial break.

jim mansfield: my job was more important to me than my family, and i started drinking a lot, staying out of town. it took a toll on me. dr. charles stanley: you may be as low as the prodigal, but you are not hopelessly, helplessly lost if you will listen to what i'm about to say. jim: sitting on that couch, watching that sermon, something had happened to us. i'm talking about the joy and love in our hearts. i want more of that.

we turn now to colorado's deatpo has stuckh us through technica. g governor, i understand you hear me now so let's get straight to it. i'm sorry for what your state has recently gone through with

this horrendous shooting at club q. it sounds like the shooter had a handgun and ar-15 style rifle. can you confirm he legally purchased them or were these unregistered ghost guns? >> it has been reported that at least one of the guns was a ghost gun by different media outlets. all of these facts will emerge in the coming days and weeks. obviously right now our heart is with the victims. five people who lost their lives, their families, dozens of others injured and, of course, many traumatized. another example of a law that could have been used in this instance successfully is a red flag law, which we have in colorado, but it's really up to the local law enforcement entity how to use it. in cases like this, where somebody can potentially be a danger, there are signs they are a danger, we have a legal way to temporarily remove custody of any weapons they might and this i an example ofet migat

that because president biden said it was ridiculous that red flag laws are not being enforced just based on the knowledge of this shooter rather than relying on his or her parents. is the president correct? and are you saying right now that your local law enforcement was shooting not to enforce the law? >> so, right now in colorado you can have parents or family members go for an extreme risk protection order or red flag law. that's fairly common. it wasn't pursued in this instance by the mother. you can have a local sheriff agent. in this case, it wasn't pursued by the local sheriff agency. i'm sure what will be looked into is it why wasn't it pursued. what i think we'll look at in colorado is potentially expanding that so das can also seek extreme risk protection orders. we also need to make sure that we publicize the law and make sure that the tools are in

people's hands when they need it to remove dangerous weapons that could be used for self-harm or rm f seb who's in a mental health crisis. >> you said last week you didn't know yet if the shooter was motivated by anti-lgbtq rhetoric or if it was a personal motive. have you seen any evidence it was a hate crime? and does the fact that the shooter identifies as nonbinary influence this in any way? does this suggest anything to you? >> well, no. on the second point of the shooter's identity has nothing to do with whether a hate crime was committed or not. i want to be clear, in colorado, if you kill five people, you're behind bars the rest of your life. this young man once convicted, and i believe he will be convicted because the evidence is overwhelming, will never be able to be freed from a jail cell. he'll spend the rest of his days behind bars.

the hate crime on top of that can be used to augment the sentence, to identify the fact that the lgbtq community was traumatized. again, the murder alone will send this person behind bars for the rest of his life. >> the president has also renewed his call for an assault weapons ban. it sounds like the details of this case may be more complicated than that. if part of this was not a registered gun at all. in the past you were against an assault weapons ban when you were in congress back in 2013. you changed your position in 2018. given that you're the chief executive of the state now, would you like to see an assault weapons ban? >> wshlgs i would say, look, we learn from each instance. you also have to look at all the causes. is there a way to improve gun safety out of this, to make sure that red flag laws are used, not only he had a pistol and a

semi-automatic weapon, do we need better laws on ghost guns, do we need to make sure is that we have a better process around semi-automatic weapons. open to all those. we also need to pursue the mental health aspect of this and other shooting incidences. we need to follow through on the anti-lgbtq rhetoric. whether it will be the case in this case or not, clearly the type of rhetoric out there that divides one group of americans against another can send somebody over the top and tragically inspire them to an act of violence. we need to focus on national healing, bringing people together and really treating one another as brothers and sisters. >> i think people can agree, i hope, with at least that. governor, thank you for your time today. and thank you for sticking with us through those technical difficulties and the delay that you all heard. we want to turn now to the war in ukraine, where residents of kherson are fleeing the city this weekend after sustained

russian bombardment knocked out power and water supplies. the latest in moscow's effort to undermine ukrainian morale after more than nine months of brutal assault. cbs news foreign correspondent is in kyiv with this report. >> reporter: ukraine has already proven it can withstand the russians. but what about the winter? at the front line, the cold and relentless artillery, may be russia's only hope to weaponize winter. trenches like these become more and more common place the closer you get to the front line. there's a really good reason for it. you don't just see and hear the flashes of artillery. but you can feel the thuds deep in your gut. ukrainians can also feel it right at their doorstep. this woman was coming home after drinking tea in kherson. medics overwhelmed throughout a night of bombardment didn't

arrive until morning. their city only recently the retreat, now limps through the dark and cold. much like the capital kyiv, the scene of a deadly missile attack this week. she and her son have to shelter in a community tent. >> translator: we have no electricity and no water. our phones and devices are out of battery. we do everything we can to distract what's really going on. >> reporter: kyiv's mayor is fuming. >> right now before the winter, the people, putin and russians, want to let us be without electricity, without heating, without water, it's genocide. it's actually terrorism. the main goal of russians to bring depression of society. i talk to the people, no negotiations with russians. we, people is angry. >> reporter: the mayor says he

never stops worrying about a nuclear disaster. in fact, the shelling has been so severe, the country had to disconnect all of its nuclear power plants temporarily. it was the first time in 40 years. margaret? >> chris livesay, thank you. that's going to it be for us today. thank you all for watching. and until next week, for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan. anderson cooper has done some risky things reporting for "60 minutes" so why is he petting the wolves? "60 minutes" tonight on cbs. ka

new york. >> announcer: this is the "cbs overnight news." roughly 55 million of you traveled this holiday weekend, and today is expected to be one of the busiest travel days of the year. air travel reached prepan democratic levels again. on saturday alone the tsa screened more than 2.2 million people. you can see flight aware's misery map showing trouble spots in red. so far today there have been more than 100 cancellations and at least 4,200 delays across the country. for those of you behind the wheel right now you're probably taking it slow.

some wet roads there we saw earlier in d.