trumpet sounds again next "sunday morning." ♪ . i'm margaret brennan in washington. this week on "face the nation" -- spring on citol hillets even longer. and the republican party's struggle to define itself continues. congress scrambles to deal with rail safety and environmental concerns. yet another norfolk southern train derailed yesterday in ohio. plus a key democrat says he's it had it when it comes to the nation's debt. >> it can't be this total political division. it's not my fault, it's your fault, it's their fault. >> we'll talk with west virginia senator joe manchin. then the republican race for the 2024 nomination is on and key republicans are picking sides, but the bigger question

is what exactly does the party stand for? >> we had a republican party that was ruled by freaks, neocons, globalists, open border zelle losts and fools. >> as more are jumping in, one is opting out. >> it's a tough decision but i've decided i will not be a candidate for the republican nomination fo>> theormer maryla larry hogan tells our robert costa why he made that decision and we will talk to illinois democrat governor j.b. pritzker, being recruited to help president biden's expected re-election campaign. was covid-19 a result of a lab accident in wuhan, china? new intelligence reports from the department of energy and fbi conflict with other agency reviews. ohio republican brad wenstrup is heading up a new committee investigating the origins of the virus. we'll talk to him. then former fda commissioner dr. scott gottlieb will help us sort through it all.

it's all just ahead on "face the nation." good morning. welcome to "face the nation." saturday's norfolk southern derailment in springfield, ohio, was the fourth train derailment in ohio in the last five months, including the one in east palestine that spilled toxic chemicals. norfolk southern tells cbs news no one was injured and no toxic substances were on boardtrn iol incident. the ceo of norfoou ct t testify before a senate panel on thursday. we want to begin the show with democratic senator joe manchin, who joins us from charleston, west virginia. good morning to you, senator. i want to start on -- >> good morning, margaret. thanks for having me. >> i want to start on that derailment. the president last week praised

bipartisan railway safety legislation that would have new rules for trains carrying hazardous materials, increase fines for safety violations, phase in newer cars. will you vote for it? is that sufficient? >> yes. i'm going to be supporting that. we need to do it back in 2015 in west virginia we had a derailment, 27 cars, tanker cars, carrying oil, went off the tracks and derailed and, moded and caused a tremendous problem there and it was very dangerous. it could have been a lot worse had it been farther down the tracks. it could have torn up a whole wn. that wee recmending le pneumatt might prevent this. routine maintenance checks and auditings and things of this sort. i don't think any of that has been done, and it's time for us to get serious about this. we're moving many more products on the rails and roads than we ever did before, and we have a lot of people who don't want any

pipelines. pipelines would help alleviate a lot of this problem with the oil we need in our country and we will be using for quite some time to do it safer, but out of sight, out of line, if you don't have a pipeline you won't be using product. that's far from the truth. this is the result of people not making good decisions and it's what's broken in west virginia and broken across the country as far as in washington, the politics. >> i want -- >> broken. needs to be fixed. >> i want to come back to energy in a moment. you're saying it's broken. you gave a fiery speech a few days ago in the senate. you're at odds with the white house and many in your party because you're saying democrats need to talk about out-of-control spending and refusing to negotiate. you did ding republicans for not offering specific cuts. if you are the dealmaker, you seem to be positioning yourself there, where is it you see room for negotiation? >> first of all i encourage

speaker kevin mccarthy i was hoping he would take things off the table that doesn't cause a conflict, but most importantly, sit down with the president. reached out to the house, they sat down and had a meeting. i'm encouraging more of that. can't we get together and talk about how do we have this much debt accumulated in this short ? within ten years, margaret, we've cumulated the greatest amount of debt in the history of our country in the shortest period of time. can't we at least find out what we and did how we expand it? i know covid did so much, but we're past the covid. >> yeah. >> problems and what we need to do is get back to normal. we've gone from 3.5 to $6.2 trillion in spending every year in the last ten years. that's unacceptable. you have to sit down. anybody who thinks we don't have a problem in washington, anybody who thinks politics is not broken in washington is not living in reality and does not want to face the facts and truth. >> so what is the truth here? social security and medicare

make up nearly 40% of spending in 2023. if no one is touching those programs where are you finding the cuts? >> well, first of all, do our job on time. we've been told if we just had a budget done, we don't even have a budget anymore. the president is a month late in putting his budget budgetfrom t th president basly s fruary ande m tol there's blions andbi d sa rit there if time. >> sure. but that's not -- >> that's what i say is not working. it gets a downward tra jekkion. >> more h discretionary spending. >> okay. there's a lot to talk about right there, but i want to ask you, what is joe manchin looking

for in this deal? are you looking for your permitting reform, for example, that democrats didn't deliver on, though they had told you you would have an agreement on? are you looking for that to be tucked into a potential bill in this agreement that you're saying has to be struck between republicans and democrats? >> well, rather than tucking something in, we're not trying to hide something in. we don't do permitting and if we don't have permitting reform in america we're not going to meet the challenge. if you're not energy secured you're not going to be a super power of the world andvior your. that has to be done. i don't care what side of the arena you're on, if you want transmission, pipelines f you realize we're going to hav t as strictly an environmental bill to have theng it better

and cleaner than anywhere in the world, to have the security we need. that's what we need to do and that's what they've been avoiding. you have to have permitting. if not all this will be voided. >> i want to ask you about what appears to be separation between you and the president. you were quoted a few days ago as saying, we're just in different ball games. we're not even in the same ballpark on many things. are you going to endorse joe biden if he runs for re-election? >> oh, there's plenty of time for the elections. this is the problem with america. we start an election every time there's a cyclical. >> he's the leader of your party. >> no. the bottom line is let's see who is involved. let's see who all the players are. let's wait until it comes out. my main purpose right now is to work for my country and state. that's my responsibility. i'm not going to make my announcement for anything until the end of the year and not going to make a decision on what my political position is going to be or wherewon' i untilhe e

the year. i have too much to do now. >> your political future, you mean the question of whether you personally are going to run for re-election in the senate in west virginia? your republican it governor jim justice says he's going to run for your seat or thinks he has a good shot at it. why haven't you made up your mind? >> the bottom line, i have plenty of time to make up my mind. the election is not until november 2024. we don't even file until january of 2024. do your running. not basically looking at the problems you have. we've got a runway debt, inflation killing people, we have an unsecured energy. we have a border that's out of control. you're telling me we're in the same ball game or same ballpark. i don't think so. >> you said let's ee who all the players are when it comes to running for president. you've said you're not running for president. is that an open question,

though? >> i didn't say that. i didn't say anything about that. the bottom line is i will make my political decision in december, whatever it may be. >> to run for president? >> i'm not taking anything off the table, and i'm not putting anything on the table. i said i'll make a decision in january -- at the end of this year. >> you'll make a decision at the end of this year as to -- >> simply that. >> who who you wl ese for decisions i make politically will not be done until the end of the year. i'm focused on fixing what's wrong with washington and the politics are so toxic the what e facing you right now. u' you've got basically energy, you've got unsecured borders, geopolitical unrest and we're talking about everything but that. >> we have a lot to talk about and senator manchin you're welcome back. we got to leave it there. >> i'm happy to come back any

time. >> senator manchin, not wanting to talk about campaign 2024 but we're going to do that. it is up and running because frontrunner, former president trump was in the washington area yesterday speak at a conservative political gathering where he had some pretty tough talk about what would happen if he is not re-elected. our robert costa spoke exclusively with former maryland governor larry hogan about why he is not jumping in. >> you think by sitting out the field maybe is a little tighter. >> i hope so. >> harder for trump to get that nomination? >> i sure hope so. >> bob's here. we're going to be talking with him next and you'll hear more from that entire with governor from that entire with governor hogan.ucthe me, but fisher investments we're clearly different. (other money manager) different how? you sell high commission investment products, right? (fisher investments) nope. fisher avoids them. (other money manager) well, you must earn commissions on trades. (fisher investments) never at fisher. (other money manager) ok, then you probably sneak in

some hidden and layered fees. (fisher investments) no. we structure our fees so we do better when clients do better. that might be why most of our clients come from other money managers. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. zoo soandidates in the 2024 campaign but more than a dozen are undecided. robert costa spoke to former

maryland governor larry hogan on friday, and he told you he's not running. did he explain why? >> he did. the former maryland governor felt conflicted as he made this decision and let's heard what he had to say. >> i was struggling because my heart was telling me to run. my head" telling me no, this does not make sense for a whole host of reasons and my gut was flipping back and forth. it really came down to if i wasn't 100% convinced i shouldn't do it. >> you were torn? >> i was torn. >> toughest decision of your political career? >> absolutely toughest decision i ever made. >> politically staying out of the race it's a smaller field maybe tougher for trump to get the nomination? >> i didn't want to have a pileup of people fighting. you have trump and desantis at the top of the field. soaking up all the oxygen. getting all the attention. then a whole lot of the rest of us in single digits and the more ofyou the ls eoromebysingup.

foim wribo pathor t former e have say campaign? isiv beten reicans andmp win of the republican y. the former governor saie lookedt the race saw a narrow path for republicans like himself as they look to 2024. let's hear what he had to say about that. >> well, there's no question it's challenging. there's a big fight for the, i would say, the heart and soul of the republican party i've been talking about for years and it's still going on. we're making progress. it went from about 90% of the republican primary base was behind trump to 60% after january 6th and down to 30%. there's about two-thirds of the people in the republican party, while they might have supported trump and trump's policies they are ready to consider moving in a different direction.

>> he's leading in the polls. >> he's leading in the polls and no question he's a formidable challenge. i think, you know,s a year is an eternity in mpoliticsre ou a a two term governor that just left office and you've long been connected to the legacy of ronald reagan, conservative movement politics. is your decision to not run in 2024 in any way an acknowledgement that that party, that version of the republican party, is fading or even gone? >> i don't feel that way at all. i think we certainly went off in the wrong direction, and we're not back on track. it's going to take a while. we're not there yet. i would say the party of reagan is not dead, and neither is the party of trump. >> how serious is this moment for your party in terms of beating former president trump? if he wins the white house

again, what would that mean for american democracy? >> well, i'm hopeful that it's not going to happen. >> what does it mean if it does? >> i think it's -- we're going to have to do some soul searching and digging out for a long time. we've lost seven out of the last eight popular votes in the presidential race and we've lost -- we've had three horrible ele election cycles where we should have had a huge pick-up and we didn't, we lost the senate, the house and the white house. we have to get back to a party that people will vote for or we don't get to govern. >> when you look at your effort to try to get the republican party to come back to its conservative roots, you're facing a lot of obstacles. there's a big battle over what the truth is, and the recent dominion lawsuit against the fox news and fox corporation, is one example of how there's a real battle over whether election fraud happened or not. all these false claims of fraud are out there right now in the

political discussion, especially on the right. what's your response to the dominion lawsuit against fox news and what does it reveal about the republican party and perhaps fox news? >> well, i don't know all the details of the dominion lawsuit, but i'm certainly following the controversy and it's not -- it doesn't come as a surprise because for years, we've had people who, you know, i would hear from elected officials and leaders of the party and people in congress or fellow governors or people in conservative media that would say privately something -- i was always telling the truth and i was sometimes criticized for it, but i always stood up and said exactly what i thought. people would say to me, i agree with what you're saying, but i can't say it. they would know the truth, but say something different, just to win votes. i think that's part of the problem and i think we have to get back to truth telling and we've got to stop the conspiracy theories. it's why we lost all the elections in the last race.

the people spouting election lies and that were saying nothing happened on january 6th or that the pandemic was fake, the virus didn't happen, well they all lost. the people who actually won were the common sense conservative republicans like me who were actually able to win swing votes and were talking about issues like the economy, like crime, and education. they were focused on things people cared about. we can't keep looking backward and denying facts. >> is governor desantis somebody you could see yourself supporting as the non-trump candidate in your party? >> well, look, the people of florida just overwhelmingly elected ron desantis. i said earlier that i think governors are a good training ground to become president. we have a lot of great governors to consider. maybe ron desantis and i have different styles, but, you know, certainly he's got every right to get out and make the case. >> where do you stand on governor desantis' efforts to counter disney, and its

self-governing zone in florida? >> the controversy to me was about telling a business if you don't agree with me, i'm going to put you out of business and take it over. i'm a traditional kind of small government conservative republican who doesn't believe in heavy-handed local governments telling businesses what to do. so we come at it from a different perspective. it's not about the issues they were fighting over, but how it's being handled i disagree with. >> he's talking about his battles what he calls woke culture. what is the desantis approach tell you about his politics? >> i think he's going right after the trump base, and he wants to be i think the younger, you know, version of donald trump. he's trying to fire up the base, which is okay, and it may be a good strategy to win a primary, but my point was, you have to actually focus on winning swing voters as well or we'll have joe biden as president and that's not what we need. >> how rough could it get, desantis versus trump? >> it could get rough.

time will tell. it's going to be very interesting. joe biden is not the guy who should be the next president, and i think most people would agree. we have to come up with the best candidate. >> you've been friendly with former vice president mike pence. someone you could support? >> absolutely. i have a tremendous amount of respect for mike pence and i thought he certainly, you know, is the kind of guy, he's full of integrity and experience. >> if another potential contender is listening to you today, what do you hope they hear from this decision from your move? >> i love competition and i hate coronations. my advice would be don't run just because you want to get your name known or want to be on tv or write a book or get a tv deal or you want to be a cabinet secretary. only run if you believe that you're capable and qualified and you have a real chance to be the not only nominee but the next president. when we come back we will hear from illinois governor j.b. pritzker. stay with us.

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this portion of "face the nation" is brought to you by empower. start taking control of your financial future at empower.com. we want to go now democratic governor j.b. pritzker of illinois. good morning to you, goernor. >> good morning, margaret. >> i have a lot to get to with you, but i want to get something out of the way. "new york times" has a feature on you calling you the democrat's s.o.s. candidate saying you're keeping your options open for a presidential run in 2024 in case biden doesn't run. is that true? >> no. i'm supporting joe biden. he's running for re-election. he's going to get re-elected. i'm just happy that people think of me in that way. that's certainly very flattering. i intend to serve out my term as governor of illinoi. >> you are, according to cbs reporting, potentially serving on an advisory board to the president if he does run for

re-election. you might have heard joe manchin who just told us that it was kind of an open question as to who would be running. he said, let's see who all the players are. he didn't endorse the president. did that surprise you? >> well, i'm sorry to hear that. it does surprise me a bit. i will say that joe biden has an awful lot that he gets to run on here. he's gotten a tremendous amount done for the country. he saved literally hundreds of thousands of lives by making sure the vaccines were distributed. he passed legislation in a bipartisan fashion, you know, we got the ira which is going to help us fight climate change, infrastructure, which is helping everybody across the country, the chips and science act, which is going to help bring manufacturing back to the united states, and what is joe biden's super power and that is, he demonstrates empathy in everything that he does. he truly cares about the

american people. >> so do you think he needs to make it official and say he's re speculation or people considering other options? >> i don't think there's anybody serious considering running against joe biden because he's done such a great job. >> i want to ask you on the issue set that democrats are running on, your office told us you're very focused on school board races in illinois to make sure extreme right wing candidates aren't dominating them. i'm wondering how strong the republican ground operation is on things like school boards? is parents' rights something you think democrats need to be concerned about on a national scale? >> well, what republicans are trying to do is, of course, ban fw books in libraries, keep our schools from teaching black history, they make up things about crt in schools that just don't exist, and so they've got

a lot of extreme right wing candidates, frankly, on the crazy end of things, that are running and we just want to make sureplho tare govern there's aot i want ith y side of this commercial break. please stay with us and we'll be right back. ly chain to satisfy cravings from tokyo to toledo? so you partner with ibm consulting to bring together data and workflows so that every driver and merchandiser can serve up jalapeño, sesame, and chocolate-covered goodness with real-time, data-driven precision. let's create supply chains that have an appetite for performance. ibm. let's create.

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