please join us when our trumpet sounds again next "sunday morning." ♪ ♪ good morning and welcome to "face the nation." margaret is off. i'm john dickerson. we find ourselves sorting and explaininging the american system following the actions of former president donald trump for which there is no previous example in american history. last week's news for the first time in history, a former u.s. president has been charged with multiple, 37 in this case, charges, stemming from the investigation into his removal of classified material from the white house and his attempts to

hide it from authorities. this is the second time mr. trump has been indicted this year. these federal criminal charges are part of a two-pronged investigation being conducted by special prosecutor jack smith who is looking into mr. trump's role in the events leading up to the january 6th attack on the investigation following the fbi's seizure of classified documents from mar-a-lago in august of 2022. the 49-page indictment outlining the evidence against mr. trump is exhaustive in its detail. prosecutors accuse mr. trump of conspiracy to obstruct justice, making false statements and allege his willful retention of hundreds of classified documents, including some that contain top secret military plans and information about u.s. nuclear capability and vulnerability. the indictment leaves little to the imagination. it uses photographs of boxes of

material including the classified documents stored carefully in open locations at mar-a-lago including a public ballroom, a bathroom and spilled over a storage room floor and cite deese tailed notes by trump's attorney, audiotapes of the former president showing classified materials in two instances to people without security clearance. noting that, quote, as president, i could have declassified but now i can't, undermine the former president's public defense anything he took laws that pct ly ed national defense information are critical to the safety and security of the united states and they must be enforced. we have one set of laws in this country and they apply to everyone. >> flashback to the 2016 campaign when mr. trump highlighted the investigation into the misuse of hillary clinton's nonsecure e-mail server to forward classified

e-mails. back then, he repeatedly pledged to enforce all laws protecting classified information. >> we can't have someone in the oval office who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "confidential" or "classified". >> most of mr. trump's 2024 rivals or supporters in congress did not address the substance of the indictment but complained it existed at all, declaring it an example of government abuse. >> you can't have one faction of society weaponizing the power of the state against factions that it doesn't like and that's what you see. >> a few contenders say the actions mr. trump show he should not be prede announceisign this week s ande. >> wls t hear thachfs can make our own judgment on whether this is the latest example of the justice department working in injustice

or otherwise. >> for mr. trump's mega faction there is no otherwise. >> if you want to get to president trump you have to go through me and 75 million americans just like me. and i'm going to tell you, yep, most of us are card carrying members of the nra. that's not a threat. that's a public service announcement. >> on the campaign trail saturday, former president trump tried to turn his personal woes into a campaign message. >> i put everything on e never. i will never be deterred. i will never stop fighting for you, never. >> there are a lot of questions we're going to try to answer today and we want to explore how

these aren't just documents in a criminal proceeding, they're a window into the behavior of a candidate, a man who would like to be given responsibility with the most sensitive things a president handles again. we begin with our chief election campaign correspondent robert costa. bob, i've been reporting inside the trump team, the legal team, but also getting reaction on the former president's response to all of this. what are you hearing? >> john, good to be with you. last night as the former president was traveling around the country, his aides and allies say he was defiant privately, furious about the indictment and pledging to stay in the race, even if he is convicted of a federal crime. some of his allies describe privately his behavior and conduct yesterday as someone -- somewhat akin to what happened in october 2016 with the "access hollywood" tape, and it created a major political crisis. what did he say then? i'll never quit the race. that's what he's saying this

weekend. trump faces so much uncertainty and legally. this legal team has this unfolding shakeup. two lawyers left the team in recent days, and now trump's remaining lawyers are trying to get it all together but trying to come up with a strategy, how are they going to counter the sweeping indictment. >> there's one of the most striking parts of the indictment is a transcript of a conversation the former president had with some authors who were in front of him and in that conversation he mentions chairman of the joint staffs mark milley which reminded me of the reporting you did for your book "peril." what do you make of the president bringing of the former chiefs of staff. >> we've been casting our net widely trying to figure out why this did happen and the president bring these documents back to mar-a-lago. what was the motivation? part of our answer in our reporting is thate was angry, so much of this as with many trump stories is driven by grievance, his grievance with

the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, the recent one, mark milley, and how mark milley in the public eye was becoming a major figure in 2021. to counter milley's profile, trump in interviews with reporters and friends he started to bring out documents to make his own case on national security, on foreign policy to say he was in a sense bette tha what he was doing, and when he did this, according to our sources, he was cavalier, bringing out things he should not have shown to people writing books and articles. >> we mentioned the fact that this is happening in the campaign context, people sometimes call a campaign a job interview. this is a candidate who's had the job before and this is a way he treated it. what's been the response, treated the obligations of the job. what's been the response inside the republican race to this indictment? >> there is alarm in the sense that they believe if he wins the presidency again, he is so now comfortable with the levers of

power, and he ignores the rule of law in the eyes of some of his competitors, that he could be a threat to american democracy. few are saying that publically but trump vote thers want to winner over are standing with trump as he faces this legal show down. former vice president mike pence says trump doesn't follow the constitution, doesn't under the rule of law. chris christie is making a similar case against trump. there's a bit of a growing refrain. so many of the rival campaigns, at this point, are in a wait-and-see mode. they know that on the horizon is not only a trial with this federal special counsel indictment, but also another possible federal indictment on the ongoing january 6th case. and in august you could have an indictment in georgia over trump's pressing of election officials and the ongoing trial and litigation that looms on the horizon in new york. >> cbs news chief campaign and

elections correspondent robert costa, thanks, bob. >> thank you. for more on the legal implications we're joined by investigative correspondent catherine herridge and legal analyst rikki klieman. you've been a prosecutor and defense lawyer. what stands out to you now that you've read this indictment? >> i think what stands out, obviously, is the magnitude of detail in this indictment. it's not only that you're dealing with 31 counts under the espionage act which simply means the unlawful, willing retention of classified information or even unclassified information, that would hurt the defense of the united states and aid our enemies. it's the detail of a speaking indictment. we have to remember that much of this indictment, john, is to educate not only, ultimately a

court and jury, but it's really to e the public. much of this indictment, in terms of the detail, may not even come into evidence in terms of what's admissible or not in the course of a trial. what also strikes me, john, is the overwhelming detail leaves the trump legal team with real need to have powerful motions to dismiss because if this goes to trial, the way it reads, it's rather overwhelming for anyone to be able to fight it on the facts themselves. >> i want to get to that motion to dismiss question in a moment. catherine, you've been doing reporting about the risk assessment of what was in these documents. >> what jumps out to me, john, when you go to the section on the willful retention of national defense information, by my count there are 21 top secret documents and the disclosure of top secret information has the

expectation of exceptionally grave damage to national security, what else stands tout me is some of the classified could codings like t.k., talent key-le, ts abo intelligence fmhead ime, f wookit count hrs on their head?y we ca can we see whatakfast terrace pati don'tant our adversaries to know we have. also special access programs are highly restricted programs because of the sensitivity of the intelligence and the technology, such as stealth technology, for example. think of classified information like the pentagon, special access programs, the handful of rooms where just a limited number of keys to control and restrict access to that information. >> so it's not just secret. it's the top of the top? >> some of these are way beyond

top secret, like i said talent key-hole, talking about special access programs or sensitive compartmentalized information, these are the crown jewels of the u.s. intelligence community. >> rikki, let me ask you about a part of this indictment which comes from one of the former president's lawyers. educate us on the crime fraud exception and how it's possible for a prosecutor to have this information and is that a weakness because we know from e a belie tt when you methg thee go to a doctor, that there's a privilege, that what you say and what your ailments are, will remain confidential. same thing if you go to a clergy person. and it's exactly the same thing when you go to a lawyer. you believe that if you are a client what you say will never be disclosed to anyone, let alone in the grand jury or court

of law. it's called the attorney-client privilege. it protects all conversations relating to legal advice. so how did it get broken? that is, how did a court in washington, d.c., a judge, and then an appellate court affirm the idea that you could hear, listen, read the notes and voice memos of a lawyer to testify against his own client? it's called the crime fraud exception. what the court believed was the conversations between evan corcoran the lawyer and donald trump, were really in furtherance of a crime or a fraud, and he was ordered and forced to testify. now one could say that's one and done, so now mr. corcoran is going to be a witness in this case, should it go to trial. what we have to remember that took place, that decisi,n thist.

now we are in florida. so can it come up to a new judge? might a new judge decide that it is not admissible at trial? yes. will that hurt the case? not necessarily. there's plenty of other evidence. >> catherine, i have two questions. the first is what happens if you're just a regular joe and you have this kind of information, legally what happens to you? >> well, as one example, i have contacts who work in the nuclear weapons capability arena, let's say you have a nuclear document that's on top of a photocopier and leave it there, your clearance is gone and you're out the door. there are immediate consequences. >> let me ask you about a number of the president's defenders. the current president is under investigation by a special counsel. we don't know much about that. but republicans have bro at in def prest.eye brop t you' been looking at. give usf the apple

and oranges or apples and apples. >> what strikes me i think the special counsel jack smith specifically charged willful retention of national defense information in an effort to sort of blunt criticism that these cases may be the same. if you go back to the summer of 2016, then fbi director james comey said that they found multiple e-mail chains on hillary clinton's private server that she used for government business, that contained highly classified information, including the special access programs that we just discussed, but in his view, it should not be charged because he didn't feel there was sufficient evidence of intent or willfulness. critics would say even just purchasing the server was an example of intent. and then finally, you have to look at just the scope of the information and also the timeline. but i think this charging of willful retention is really by design. >> the facts of the case different but thank you so much

for that and for all your other answers and rikki klieman, thank you. "face the nation" will be back in one minute. stay with us. ♪ the google cybersecurity certificate was made to fill that gap. -with hands-on training, recruitment support, and access to a wide network of employers, this program provides the necessary skills to begin a career in cybersecurity. -one of the best defenses against cyberattacks is a growing workforce trained to stop them. ♪

cbs news elections and survey director anthony and his team were in the field with the presidential survey when thedet charges against former president trump. anthony, it's good to have you here. what's reaction been?>>ning start with republican primary voters because we're in the heat of this campaign. they say it does not matter. they expressly say that this will not change their views. maybe that doesn't surprise. they've been with donald trump for years, but what's interesting is the why. when you ask if they're more concerned that this is politically motivated or if there's a national security risk, they come down heavily on the politically motivated side. 76% of them saying that.

and, you know, what's interesting about this is, you juxtapose that against the broader public who is much more split, and in many cases the public says these aren't mutually exclusive. it can be in part both. but the republican primary voter, donald trump is still on top and this hasn't changed anything. >> and the general election voter, the republican party primary voter overwhelmingly but when you mix it together the majority of the country believes what? >> if you take out just the potential national security risk and you ask people, is this one? well you get this big number among the public that say yes, it is. >> a national security risk? >> security risk if true, if as alleged there were nuclear plans or military plans in these documents. that's at 69%. but you want to see that inson to the republican primary voter that number is at 38%. it's that difference that is

essential to understanding why you're going to seat rhetoric on the republican side on the campaign trail that's talking about what they say is political motivation, as opposed to national security risk. >> what happens if the president is convicted? >> so if you look ahead to that possibility, we asked, would that be disqualifying for him to be able to serve a second term for elected to run. republican primary voters say that's not disqualifying. he ought to be able to serve, they're at eight in ten. the public majority saying he cannot. you get through the primaries and wonder about general oi to matter. but for now, for republicans, it is not days qualifying. >> a question of history, we remember the lock her up chants from the 2016 campaign from donald trump's supporters at rallies. what did the surveys show about the way republican voters thought about the allegations that hillary clinton had misused classified data? >> back in the summer of 2016,

our polling showed the republicans overwhelmingly thought what she did was wrong and even illegal. okay. now look that may have ultimately had electoral implications for her as well. i think the takeaway from that comparison, sometimes when the public makes up its mind it's politics first. who is doing something as opposed to the abstract of what may have happened. >> we'll have more discussion about later in our broadcast with our political panel where we'll talk about the state of the race. we'll be right back with a lot more "face the nation." stay with us. phil: excuse me? hillary: that wasn't me. narrator: said hillary, who's only taken 347 steps today. 348, 349... hillary: i cycled here. narrator: haha! on an e-bike... speaking of cycles, mary's period is due to start in three days. mary: it is? narrator: and her friend hasn't washed his hands since... monday! yeah, i'd put that back. and then there's bill, whose heart rate rises to 115,

nervous i'll mention... bill: my diarrhea? narrator: his chronic night sweats. linda: you sweat more at night than you do at the gym. narrator: which is rich coming from linda, who's wearing yoga pants but never does yoga! linda: i stretch! bill: how do you know so much about us!? phil: i don't like it... narrator: it's your health data, you've been sharing it without realizing it. that's how i know about kevin's rash. and your halitosis! lice! jay: it's true. narrator: and... ringworm! haha! who's next? wait... what's that in your hand? no, no, stop! way to ruin the fun. [lock clicks shut] my a1c was up here; now, it's down with rybelsus®. his a1c? it's down with rybelsus®. my doctor told me rybelsus® lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill and that people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. i got to my a1c goal and lost some weight too. rybelsus® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes.

don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction.ccur ll your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and arrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. need to get your a1c down? you may pay as little as $10 per prescription. we turn now to the first of two republican governors joining us today. new hampshire's chris sununu who announced last week that he would not be a candidate for president. welcome, governor. thank you for being with us. you've taken a look at the indictment. do you think that current frontrunner of the republican nomination should be given the

responsibility to handle the most sensitive national security documents again with re-election. >> i guess we're going to find out. look, if half of what they say they can prove is provable, then he's got a real problem on his hands and it's self-inflicted. let's remember that. he had every chance in the world to hand all those files and documents back and did the opposite, he bragged about keeping them. this is self-inflicted. we'll find out of the 37 or whatever charges there are, how many he's potentially found guilty on. we'll see where it goes and disqualifying and not. the last segment you had was telling. it's just another example that he could win the nomination, but cannot, mathematically, cannot win in november of '24 which is why the republican party needs to look to another candidate and they've got a lot of great options before them. >> this seems to provide an opportunity for them to not look to another candidate because they are rallying around him. i want to read you something from the "national review" which

wrote about this indictmnt, it is impossible to read the indictment against trump in the mar-a-lago case and not be appalled by it, the way he handled classified documents as an ex-president and responded to the attempt by federal authorities to reclaim them. you seem to share that view, but many, the majority in your part and the majority of public officia officials, have the opposite view. >> yeah. this is the problem that the department of justice has, whether you want to agree with it or not doesn't matter. the reality is a lot of people are looking at the cloud that sits over the doj and says there has been a little too much flix that department over the past couple years a lot of allegations of political handling, so they have the responsibility to say look, this is different. this is much more severe. and i think they have to do that. >> let me ask you this, governor, but first of all, the department of justice is investigating a sitting president, there's a special counsel, same standard is applied to him. isn't it not the department of

justice that's applying a different standard, but the politicians the same ones in some cases, kevin mccarthy and others, who are applying a standard to donald trump that they did not apply to others, most, you know, hillary clinton being the primary one? >>, but you can't -- if i may, you can't equivocate the two. you have folks -- look those are politicians that are on the republican side and going to defend a political position, the doj has a responsibility to be above it all and should be and historically has been. region has not been. the average american watches this. you and i are in the weeds and talk about the issue all the time. the average has it for 90 seconds. they found files over there, a server in clinton's bathtub, what's the difference. there's a huge difference. but it has to be explained to the american people. >> i mean, governor, that's like saying new york and new hampshire are the same because

they have the word new in their titles. there are great differences in terms of obstruction of justice in the cases of say president biden and the case of former president trump. so -- >> i agree. >> but we're going to run out of time so hold on. we're going to get you on the other side of the half hour and we'll come back to this. we're going to take a break and stay right there. we've got more when we come back to "face the nation." make analyzing a big bank's data... no big deal? go on... well, what if you partner with ibm and red hat, use a hybrid cloud solution to connect data across clouds, then analyze all that data with watson. okay, but this needs to meet our... security standards? yup. compliance standards? mm-hmm. so they get the insights they need... we're going to get you on the e? check. aaaand check. that's the solution ibm and a global bank created. what will you create? ibm. let's create. ♪ with wet amd, sometimes i worry my world is getting smaller because of my sight.

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we'll be right back with a lot more "face the nation" with governor sununu and north dakota governor doug burgum. stay with us.

welcome back to "face the nation." we return now to the republican governor of new hampshire chris sununu. governor, we were talking about the uniform application of standards, whether it's by politicians or the department of justice, the former attorney general bill barr weighed in on this question on fox news when asked about whether there is political motivated. he said i defended the president on you russian gate, called out alvin bragg, politicized the hit job and spoken out 30 years about the abuse of the criminal process judge to influence politics but there is not true. you have the former attorney general saying that these charges of weaponization are not true. i wonder what you think a

responsibility politician looking at the evidence before us should say about the department of justice and whether there's danger in saying weaponization when you have a former attorney general saying no, this is on the level? >> no, i think that's a great point and bill barr is right. i don't see this as being political, but again, the point i keep going back to is, the average person may still think it's political and a lot people clearly do. if you're going to take unprecedented steps like this, as valid as they are, they have to again acknowledge the responsibility of showing all sides of it, showing how it's not political, not just saying it's not political, they did that before and it didn't work out so well. they have the responsibility of showing how it is not political to give the trust in the system so when this goes for a i and when he is found guilty there's trust it was done the right way. >> as a politician of one's faith what is the responsibility when surveying this when you know it's not a weaponization -- when you know there's no

evidence of weaponization, what should you say to the public? the public may feel one thing, but if the facts of the case suggest more complexity and gray areas what does a politician in good faith say to the public? >> look, i'm a believer, everyone has to be straightforward and transparent about it and acknowledge the realities of the severity of these accusations and these allegations and the fact that they, again, they're very real, self-inflicted. this is nothing like we've seen before. and there's very likely, i think, going to come down to some type of guilty verdict on the president, at least on some of these charges, so again, we all have that responsibility. who takes that? who wants to play political games? i guess everyone unfortunately will tend tod do that on both sides of the aisle. you have to acknowledge both sides, you to. >> let me move on to the state of new hampshire, the first primary. you want to change the convertionym donal trumnd oand peapsetther

um maket morefficult? >> it makes it more difficult, but look, my message to all the candidates is very clear, you better come out, just as you acknowledge, you have to come out and they have to come out and acknowledge this is different, this is serious, even if half of this stuff is true he's in real trouble and it's self-inflicted. i see it too many of the candidates walk around it, we'll see what happens. to your point you have to be clear and transparent. you're running against this guy and he's whooping you by 40 points. everybody needs to come out in concert not just a chris christie hitting donald trump or this candidate hitting donald trump it is a party message. that's important. donald trump doesn't represent the republican party. he doesn't represent -- he only represents himself. so that is shown when all the ka candidates out come out equally talking about the issue in the right way. >> did you mention that to

governor burgum when you breakfast with him this morning? >> absolutely. doug is an incredible governor, going to be a great candidate, hittig the ground running with the things you need to be successful. a lot of other candidates are turning their machines on and starting to hit the ground. we'll see where it goes. i think doug is a great governor and he's going to be a spark to watch this fall. >> another person you met with this week got in the race, former vice president. measure old-style of politics a good old fashioned conservative and the polling consistently shows that, though protesters at the -- or the -- those who attacked the capitol on january 6th called for his hanging he seems to have paid a political price for that, more than the person who led to the circumstances that had them call for his hanging which is to say his former boss. what does that say about the nature of things? >> well, look, all the candidates are a little bit different, but i think you have three candidates in a similar position, all great people, great candidates, nikki haley,

chris christie, former vice president pence. these are all folks on the trump team and now off the team running against them. they know how to run a ground game, talk to folks with a sense of authenticity about what it is and what has changed between then and now. each of those candidates are in similar position has to make their case as to why they not just or have earned the job, but what's going to spark them, spark them beyond 5, 6, % 7% in the polls to get people excited this fall. >> we'll be talking to you again for sure, appreciate it. we'll be right back. is ways of doing things. and creating plastic products that are more recyclable. durable. and dependable. our goal is a cleaner, healthier planet for generations to come. for a better tomorrow,

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donald trump, this indictment, whatever you may think about the details of it, creates an opportunity to talk about the responsibilities obligations and character of the job. so is it an opportunity for you and what are you going to do withly about the presidency being the hardest job in the world and part of your thesis was priorities and this is something that we've been talking about. we're on day four on the campaign trail. we're talking about that and sort of make sure that people understand who we are, why we're running and what we'll do. i'm a small town kid in north dakota, had jobs where you someho shower at the end of the day. my dad died when i was a freshman in high school. got a little bit of farmland and mortgaged that and that became the seed capital for a start-up software company which grew into a billion dollar company with small town kids from north

dakota working for that company and 130,000 customers and 120 companies, one of these only in america type stories. the reason we're running laying been governor the last 6 1/2 years, when you're in the top spot in an executive role how you pick your priorities and focus on, you have an opportunity to improve the life of every citizen and that's what we're planning on doing is improving the life of every citizen and the best of america thre things.o that and focus o the economy touching everybody right now. energy policy, that touches everybody right now. completely related to national security. those three things interrelated. we feel it's not just a course correction but the biden administration is 180 degrees in the wrong direction on the economy, on energy policy, and on national security. that's what we're going to focus on and talk about in our campaign. >> that's when you wake up every day as a chief executive who has been handed the responsibility by the people of north dakota, you have a certain obligation in the office, talked about it,

would you do anything about what's alleged in the indictment against former president trump? >> i've only made one campaign promise so far and that's if elected, i will get down to the southern border in the first two weeks, not take two years like biden did. i can also tell you that when president and when we leave the office we'll follow every rule related to handling classified documents. >> chris sununu was on and had a good breakfast with you and said this is a competition and only one spot. you can't just get a little bit of market share. you have to get the entire -- you have to get the most and biggest share and his argument is candidates like you to make a clear distinction with the frontrunner and this is a pretty big opportunity, particularly for somebody talking about the values they were enviewed with living in a small town to make a moral claim about the office and attributes required for it but you're not. >> well, i think, obviously, the way we've conducted ourselves, when i was a ceo, when i've been

governor, when you have the responsibility, the top spot, it's important to make sure that you're not only doing a great job for the people you're serving, but when you're the office holder for a period of time and there's, you know, a dignity and discipline that goes with being a governor and the president and certainly we would strive to uphold that going forward because it's such a key institution going forward, but, yeah, absolutely. that's what we would be focused on making sure dwoeflds that and you've written about the importance of doing that. >> let me ask you about a moment from -- well you had an interview with the fargo forum in which you said, that there's a silent majority that's being neglected. quoting you, all the engagement right now is occurring on the edge. what did you mean? >> well, i think it's not just silent. governor spencer cox of utah doesn't call it the silent majority, it's the exhausted majority. the majority of americans and

people that are touched every day by these issues of inflation, of government red tape, of high gas prices, of an open border, it's affecting every american. they're not on social media. they're not watching the cable news programs. that's the majority of americans. i think again, in the tech world, we always said when you're building a global world-class company from nothing, you've got to separate what's signal and what's noise. there's a lot of noise in the echo chambers on the edges and the exhausted in the middle are yearning for leadership that will talk and listen to them about the issues affecting them in their every-day lives and in the few short days we've been on the trail we know that. in the two days in iowa, yesterday in new hampshire, there are people that want to talk about the issues facing this country and how it affects them and their lives every day. >> during the covid pandemic in the toughest part of it, you talked about masks and you said that everybody needed to be

empathetic towards those who might wear it and said dial up your empathy and your understanding. are there other issues in the world you see today and domestic politics where you would apply that same guidance for people? >> well, when we talk about the best of america growing up in a small town, best of america is when neighbors help neighbors. when a farmer in north dakota falls ill, the neighbors rally around, whether it's to get the crop planted or harvested. every spring in western north dakota in the badlands when time for spring branding and round up the neighbors show up. they couldn't get the work done if they weren't neighbors helping neighbors. we need to get back to that. part of our real enemies, you know, when we talk about china, russia, iran, north korea, they love it when we're fighting with each other and they love it when we're throwing insults back and forth at each other. we have to approach and one of the words we have in our administration is curiosity. y curiosity to understand where

the other person is coming from and with that i know america has built this economy around innovation and we have the biden administration completely focused on regulating, you know, regulating our industries out of business, as opposed to focusing on innovation. the way you get to innovation is through curiosity and understanding everybody can contribute to the conversation. >> governor doug burgum thank you for being with us. we appreciate it. we'll be back in moment with our panel.

we're back with our elections and surveys director anthony and we're also joined by political reports amy walter and senior white house and political correspondent ed o'keefe. good to be with all of you. anthony, i'll start with you, more numbers, give us the top line of the republi coortabl and in two important wane sily, he's at 61% when people say who they would support right now. in another important way, in consideration, that's when people can pick multiple candidates, one more if they like, because this is a point in the campaign where they're

evaluating things generally and >>'s not a special second candidate that's hiding in the wings courting consideration, but don't answer that, because i want to ask you in terms of what the former president is talking about, is it what people want to hear? >> no. in a short answer. they don't want to hear him talk about 2020. they don't want to hear him talk about himself or the past. they want to hear him talk about plans for the country. and yet, he's still leading. >> amy, what do you make of that? in this current context where there's the first federal indictment? >> two things. one is, if the leadership of the party and his own rivals are echoing what trump is saying about this indictment, there is politically motivated, rigged, witch hunt, why should we believe voters will feel differently? they're all following each other in this. the other one about why are they not talking about the number one issue, if you talk to the folks

in and around the desantis campaign, they believe the only way to go and chip away at trump support is to go at him from the right on some of these cultural issues. that's where they see him as most vulnerable. when you talk about the economy, voters overwhelmingly, i'm sure you've seen this in your polling already, anthony, voters in the republican primary think trump did a great job on the economy, trying to out economy him is going to be difficult. >> and also, he may not have to talk about it much. he's our guy, checked that box, he can talk about whatever he wants because we've assumed -- >> this is where the governor you just heard, burgum, is trying to make his case look, i'm actually the businessman. i've done this and going to address those issues, getting that traction, though, is going to be very difficult when we still are focused much more on what's going on with trump than any other candidate. >> i want to ask about the blocking which we talked about with governor sununu. you've been on the trail, there are some of former president's

trump's rivals who are trying to make it a moral case, trying to make it. how is that going? >>otwell,or hutchinson, too at tegory, ump, pence, nikki haley those are the names i heard from voters, the five of them, that sort of gives you a sense at this point maybe that's the ball game, that trump is, obviously, double digits ahead of all of them but if anybody else right now in name i.d., staffing operations has a shot at iowa and new hampshire, it's probably those five right now. i'm struck, too, by governor burgum's decision this week to come out and say i'm going to talk about the economy, energy and national security and some ways energy leads into the other two, maybe really he's just running for energy secretary one day. he's made it a point and it's been proven in the polling most voters want to be listening to candidates talk about inflation and the economy, which for more than a year has been the number

one concern. >> when you get there, by the way, that's what's on your plate, the stuff he's talking about. >> look, first of all, it always feels good when the reporter on the ground is seeing the same things we're seeing in the polling. when you list out for folks what they want in a president, in the woke s.t, right, f it's also beeneceoom plans cana economy it is, donald trump is your guy. and so you can sort of wrap that up. did i want someone like donald trump, similar to donald trump, they say yes. and he's running. >> you know, it's interesting, you mention that, the woke, the attack on woke is an attack. we don't have a lot of candidates, and tim scott is other one, governor burgum is a hey, actually, i'm going to show you about where i came from and these american values in a small town with 400 people and building -- it's the old optimistic message in the old days every candidate had to have one. now it's basically burgum and scott. >> republican voters want

somebody who is going to fight for them. if you do believe as a republican voter that system itself is rigged, that you -- we as are these voters we are being basically oppressed by whoever you want to put in that category, coastal elites, the folks that run the justice department, all of them are against us, we need somebody who is going to fight for us. the other thing going back to the economy, i heard this a lot election, they looked at the data in 2022, that election, looked at the data that said number onehat y plan was. right. we knew that, yeah, we don't think biden is doing a great job on inflation but what are you going to do about it? >> ed, let me pick up on something amy said, the republicans have rallied around donald trump, he's under threat. what if the way this is being framed by republicans, this is partisan, a manipulation of the

system, creates an appetite for donald trump. if it's all rigged we want the best rigger in the game on our side. >> if that's the case, then the polling continues to show us they can nominate him but may be set up to lose again. >> in a general. >> in the general election we're seeing americans believe that this was justified, that he should be prosecuted, right, and then, of course, he lost last time, and there's nothing yet that suggests that he would win a general election other than perhaps some horse race numbers this early. the one thing that gives democrats something to be hopeful about, you asked about attributes in a president you want or characteristics in a president, topping the list was truthfulness, right, character and people this. at the bottom of that list, was someone who is articulate, energetic and youthful, right. so if you're the biden campaign they want telling -- that's us, right. we're not the articulate

youthful one. that argument has gone away and remain hopeful if it is trump they can still win this. >> what are they saying in the democratic party is this. >> what's interesting about biden, 41% approval, been in the low 40s for a while. to ed's point he does better in approval with folks who want a president that is calm, predictable, and steady and if you go back to 2020 were selling points for him. but now, the question is going to be, does that necessarily meet the moment? there are concerns among democrats about whether he should run again. you get four in ten democrats in this survey saying they don't think that he should and their concern is about his second term. >> is this just a repeat, amy, of 2020? >> it sure feels that way, doesn't it. ypes of voters, right, these voters who may not be in

love with joe biden, but feel as if the job he's doing, but feel they have little choice but to vote for him because they don't think the alternative is acceptable. in 2016 or maybe it's like 2016, are we going to see that repeat, where you have a significant number of people that say i dislike both candidates but at the end of the day i'm going to have to go with this person. so you have a whole bunch of people or even more dispirited about their choice than in 2020 where people were a little bit more optimistic about who they were choosing to vote for. the thing about biden, even in 2020, the significant number of people who voted for him said, i only voted for him because he wasn't donald trump. there's never been this personality around joe biden like we saw around obama, like we see around donald trump. rallying support for biden has been about the other, rather than about sfwhooin you cover the white house. joe biden is not talking about

this and they won't say anything about it, but one of the things that struck me, he has developed some kind of relationship with the speaker of e house, kevin mccarthy dthrough the debt ceiling negotiations. kevin mccarthy is coming out saying, this is being led by the president of which there's no evidence. what does that mean for law making, life in washington going forward? >> i think the white house understand that kevin mccarthy has a real problem holding his own caucus together and there are freedom caucus, conservative members who needed to hear the speaker say those things in the wake of the debt ceiling agreement. the house was sent home early because they couldn't move simple things through amid the conservative opposition of the debt limit deal. saying what he's said, he's appeasing those guys in hopes they can come back next week and get things moving. the president and the white house understand that. mccarthy has to be appeasing these people. when it comes to a government shut down threat potentially in september and the other things, they will find a way to do it because chaos just doesn't favor

congress as it is currently. >> not taking it personal. just business. >> not this president. >> we'll be right back.

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cbs news will have special coverage during the day and the cbs evening news will originate from miami on tuesday as former president trump makes his first court appearance there that's scheduled for 3:00 p.m. thank you for watching today. margaret will be back next week. for "face the nation," i'm john dickerson.

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