tv Face the Nation CBS July 30, 2023 8:30am-9:01am PDT
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i'm jane pauley. stay tuned for "face the nation" and please join us when our trumpet sounds again next sunday morning. ♪ i'm margaret brennan in washington. and this week on "face the nation," new charges of a cover-up are filed against former president trump in the classified documents case. and some optimistic signs when it comes to the economy. ♪ ♪ one could end up going to
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prison ♪ ♪ one just might be president ♪ >> under the heading of, you can't make it up, a popular song on the campaign trail ushered the former president onto the stage friday. but donald trump was undeterred by that, and seemingly by the growing list of criminal charges against him. >> we will win the election big, and we will make america great again. >> equally undeterred, his supporters. >> they're trying everything they can do to keep him from running. >> and his opponents aren't having much luck gaining traction by being critical. >> donald trump is running to stay out of prison. and if we elect -- >> we'll hear from two other republican presidential hopefuls, former south carolina governor nikki haley and former governor asa hutchinson. then we'll look at the bright spots on the economic front last week with minneapolis
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federal president neel kashkari. >> global boiling has arrived. >> a stark warning from the united nations. but has the july extreme heat changed americans' views of climate change? we've got new insights. and we'll talk to the mayor of another city suffering from extreme heat, san antonio's ron nirenberg. it's all just ahead on "face the nation." ♪ ♪ ♪ captioning funded by cbs good morning, and welcome to "face the nation." legal troubles continue to mount for former president donald trump, even as he continues to overshadow the rest of the field for the 2024 republican nomination. both in terms of polling and popularity within the party. he campaigned over the weekend in iowa and pennsylvania.
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>> you know, they're not indicting me, they're indicting you. i just happen to be standing in their way. >> late thursday, we learned of new charges in the classified document case being investigated by special prosecutor jack smith. mr. trump on two occasions showed off classified documents related to military plans. he's now been charged with an additional charge of the espionage. we've known about the incidents, one of which was captured on an auto tape obtained by catherine herridge as trump allegedly shares plans to attack iran. >> i just -- isn't that amazing? this totally wins my case, you know. >> uh-huh. >> except it is highly confidential -- >> [ laughter ] >> as president i could have declassified, no, i can't. >> trump has been charged with unlawful retention of that document and is now accused of attempting to destroy evidence by pressuring a mar-a-lago employee to delete security
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video that had been subpoenaed by prosecutors in june of 2022. sources tell chief campaign and election correspondent robert costa that footage could show a trump aide moving boxes believed to be classified material out of a storage room. and who better to walk us through these developments than catherine herridge and robert costa here in washington with me. and cbs news legal analyst rikki klieman, who is in southampton, new york. rikki, good morning to you. i want to start with the question in this classified documents case, we are now at a total of 40 counts facing donald trump. if he is found guilty, what kind of punishment would he face? >> well, ultimately, he is facing tens of tens of years in prison. i mean, you could look up to 80 years in prison. but facing the maximum has no reality, margaret. what we're really looking at is
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how a judge would assess what is appropriate, and that goes back to what we call the judicial guidelines for crimes such as these. in addition to that, donald trump does not stand in the same shoes as any other defendant, because you do have considerations about whether or not you're going to put him in prison at all if he were to be convicted, and then the logistics of such a detention in terms of secret service, he's entitled to it throughout his life. so, it is not simple to say he's going to face 80 years in prison or eight years in prison. it's really, what is the best thing to do at the time if there is a conviction and a sentence. also keep in mind, margaret, there's appeals. this could take a very, very long time. >> and there will be political
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ramifications here. but we know this won't practically prevent him from continuing this bid for the presidency. catherine, i want to get to what we just played, that auto tape that you played. the superseding indictment included reference to this document, which investigators had found. previously donald trump said didn't exist. audio shows he was talking about it. what is the significance of it? >> well, charging the iran document has a ripple effect. it undercuts the former president's public statements that he was just showing some media articles and clippings. but i think it also opens the door to the potential compromise of sources, methods, tactics, and military techniques. a war plan is a very unique document. it is a reflection of what the u.s. government believes to be the weaknesses of an adversary, in this case iran. it probably included intelligence from our allies in the region. so the sensitivity of this
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document is unique and also so important to u.s. national security. >> and national security, protecting the american public is a fundamental responsibility. >> exactly. >> and there's another document referenced as well, a map included in that charge. robert, the former president's attorneys were at the department of justice this past week. what were they talking about, what kind of agreement, if anything, did they come to? >> those lawyers are waiting to see if the former president will be indicted on the january 6th investigation being led by the special counsel. right now the special counsel -- >> the second federal case. >> there are two federal cases on separate tracks, one on classified records, and there's also the investigation of trump's conduct in and around january 6th. but what we hear about the january 6th investigation is intriguing. it's not just about trump's conduct on the day of the attack. we heard a lot about that from the house committee that
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investigated it. but this is more about an alleged sweeping scheme led by trump to overturn the 2020 election. and in conversations with sources last night close to trump and this morning, there is some concern around the republican frontrunner, that this is not just a campaign now, it's almost like he's leading a legal defense fund. so many people around trump are looking to his pac save america to pay their legal fees. in a filing we expect to come on monday. there will be perhaps 40 million that is being put toward legal expenses from a political action committee. that's an indication of what's to come, in the coming weeks as trump faces special counsel investigations and faces a possible indictment in georgia for his pressuring of election officials. and you have the new york case hovering on the horizon over those hush money payments. all of it comes down to how trump puts pressure, allegedly, on people around him. >> and this indictment is
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incredibly detailed about some of those things, text messages, implication that the boss wanted. >> they called him the boss inside mar-a-lago. the bloodoss wants us to do thi. trump denied that he suggested that they should delete any footage. trump said today he has that footage, it was never deleted. but this comes down to a culture ad a culture that could come back to the united states in terms of governing if trump wins the white house. who is this person who exerts this kind of pressure on the pople around him? >> rikki, i want to get to you on something robert costa mentioned in terms of the legal fees. there's been reporting in "the new york times" and "the washington post" that it gets up to $40 million in legal spending to defend trump and people working with him, that this money that people out there donate to his campaign then gets i did as part of a legal defense
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for people working for him and for mr. trump himself. is that appropriate? is there anything to prevent that? >> there probably is nothing to prevent it, and it may not be inappropriate if people know that when they contribute to the pac that one of the things they may be contributing to is, in fact, donald trump's legal fees but also the legal fees of others. one of the things that happens in multiple defendant cases, if there is a leader of the pac, and in this case it is donald trump, as robert costa pointed out when we look at the speaking indictment, it's the boss wanted the server deleted, the boss. it often happens in multiple defendant case that whoever is the boss and whoever has access to the money may pay the fees of other defendants, and that
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becomes a known factor. however, when you have someone like the now employee number four, whose name has now been disclosed by the president, mr. taveras, that when he is going to now testify against will nauta, against donald trump, his codefendants, he cannot possibly be represented by a lawyer who is working in tandem with donald trump's lawyers. so he had to get a new lawyer. and i am quite sure that his legal fees will no longer be paid by donald trump. >> catherine, i want to come back to you on another big legal development this past week. the u.s. attorney in delaware has been investigating hunter biden, the son of the president. this has been wide ranging, but the deal came down to two tax charges and a diversion agreement related to a gun charge. what happened in that courtroom this week that made the judge
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hit the brakes? >> i was inside that courtroom, margaret, just sitting about 20 feet behind hunter biden during that three-hour hearing. the simple explanation is that the federal judge is always handling plea agreements. they're very familiar documents to her. when this one hit her desk, she said hold on a minute, this is not a standard agreement, these are different terms than what i'm used to. when she pulled that thread, what she found out is that there was no agreement between the defense and the prosecution over whether this deal would shut down the prospect of any future criminal charges. and that is really when the whole thing went off the rails. >> and now we know in 30 days' time, they will have to reconvene in regard to this agreement. so it could come together? >> it could come together. what i would say being inside that courtroom for three hours is that the two sides now have an opportunity to answer her questions and sort of renegotiate the language in this plea. but as one former federal
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prosecutor said to cbs news what happened in that courtroom was a train wreck. i think that these could be big gaps to bridge, and the bar may be even higher with this federal judge to get her approval. >> catherine herridge, robert costa, rikki klieman, thank you so much for laying out the big developments of the week. and we spoke earlier with former u.n. ambassador and presidential hopeful nikki haley from des moines, iowa, where she was campaigning yesterday. whether the former president should face prosecution over mishandling of classified documents. >> if these accusations are true, it's incredibly dangerous to our national security. but, again, this is coming down from a department of justice that, frankly, the american people don't trust. two other defendants named in this indictment, carlos de oliveira and trump bodyman will nauta were allegedly instructed to delete security camera footage. and the details in this
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indictment are very specific. it says just a day after trump received the subpoena requesting the video, they went to the basement and looked at the security cameras. two days later, de oliveira took aside a fourth employee, went through a basement tunnel to a small room and asked about how many days the server retained footage from those surveillance cameras. he then told another employee, the boss wanted the server deleted. does that sound kosher to you? >> no. i mean, none of that sounds good. the same way it didn't sound good when hillary erased her emails. it doesn't matter if you're a republican or democrat, you shouldn't be erasing anything unless you have something to hide. but everybody needs to be treated the same way. and that's what the american people are frustrated about. it's not that they don't want people held accountable. they just want everyone to be treated fairly. and right now they don't trust the department of justice. do you trust the department of justice yourself? >> if i become president, the first thing we're going to do is we're going to make sure we
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clean up any -- we'll clean it up from the top and all of senior management. they have weaponized and put politics in the department of justice over years. >> you've said in the past, though, you would be inclined to pardon donald trump. that assumes he'll be convicted, that assumes he had something to hide here. has your position changed? would you still pardon him? >> well, what i've said is if he is found guilty, that is certainly showing that it was dangerous to our national security, but i'll take you back to nixon and ford. i think that one of the things we have to look at is not what's in the best interest of the president, but what's in the best interest of the country. we have to move forward, we've got to quit living in the past. and i don't want there to be all this division over the fact that we have a president serving years in jail over a documents trial. i want all this to go away. it's why we have to have a new generational leader. it's why we need to move forward. we can't keep living with indictments and court cases and vengeance of the past.
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we've got to start going forward. american people are not talking about these indictments. >> you have said in the past that you would support donald trump if he's -- if he wins the nomination, but he can't win a general election do you think, then, that he should drop out? >> while i think he was the right president at the right time earlier, and why i think his policies were good, i don't think he's the right president at the right time going forward. i think we've got to move forward. we can't have a general election where we are handing it over to kamala harris because we're dealing with indictments and court cases and legal issues of president trump. >> so it would help you get your message out and republicans get their message out if he drops out, is that what you're saying? >> well, none of us want to be talking about indictments. i don't even know if it's the third, fourth, or fifth indictment right now. but what i can tell you is it's a distraction. frankly the media's talking about it nonstop. but when i do these town halls, the american public is not talking to me about it. >> you've said sanctions on china are not working and that as president you would push
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congress to revoke permanent normal trade relations until the flow of fentanyl ends. our two economies are incredibly intertwined. how do you hit china without having blowback here at home? >> that's the exact response that the europeans would've told you about russia. and look at where that got them. that got them to where they're right on the border of a ukrainian/russian war. what we have to understand is -- >> china is the second most powerful massive economy in the world. >> and china is also our number one biggest national security threat. just look at the infiltration they're doing in our country. they're doing nuclear, artificial intelligence, cyber. the way i would deal with it is, number one, we wouldn't allow them to buy u.s. soil, we would take the land that they bought back from them. we would go and say no more are we selling in isort of sensitive technologies that allow them to build up their military and threaten the u.s. we would stop that. we would tell our universities you either take chinese money or
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american money, but the days of taking both are over. and when it comes to fentanyl, the number one cause of death for adults 18 to 49 is fentanyl. don't think for a second china doesn't know what they're doing. so what i would do is say to china, we will end all normal trade relations with you until you stop killing americans. >> so you would kick out the chinese manufacturers who've invested in the state of south carolina? >> what i would say to the chinese manufacturers is i would say, look, we're going to make sure we know exactly what you're doing. we only took less than 2%. but i wish the administration had told the governors what was going on. what we need to do is make sure there's no sensitive technology being stolen. >> you have been speaking a fair amount about president biden's seventh grandchild who you said he should acknowledge on friday. he did in a statement, saying it's a personal matter, not a political one. do you accept that request for privacy given that there is a 4-year-old child involved? >> when i was talking about the
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grandchildren, what i was saying is that we need to have term limits in congress and we need to have mental competency tests for anyone over the age of 75. and i don't say that to be disrespectful. when you look at biden and ask him what country he was in the week before and he can't say it. >> when you ask him how many grandchildren he has and he doesn't know. when you go and see him falling asleep with leaders, that's concerning. and i know when i was at the united nations, leaders watch the health status of other leaders. they are watching biden right now. you see what happened with mcconnell. you've seen what happened with feinstein. >> i want to follow up on that, but i think -- are you saying that you believe the privacy of this child should be dealt with as a nonpolitical matter? >> i haven't paid attention to what he said in terms of his interview. but of course when it comes to family, we always want to keep that private. that's fine. but when you go and you talk about family values and you talk about all of that, it's odd that he wouldn't acknowledge one of
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his grandchildren. >> you have just criticized mitch mcconnell who had some issues in front of a camera this week where he seemed to freeze a bit. are you confident in his ability to lead? because he says he's going to serve out his term. >> i think mitch mcconnell did an amazing job when it comes to our judiciary, when we look at the judges and the supreme court he's been a great leader. but i do think that this is one -- you know, we've got to stop electing people because they look good in a picture or they hold a baby well. we've got to stop electing people because we like them and they've been there a long time. that's actually the problem. you need to have term limits because we need new solutions. i have republicans and democrats. we are $32 trillion in debt. we're having to borrow money just to make our interest payments. i would love to say biden did that to us. but republicans did that to us, too. republicans in the '24 budget asked for $7.4 billion in earmarks. democrats asked for 2.8 billion.
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who are the big spenders there? what i am saying about mitch mcconnell, dine feinstein, joe biden, nancy pelosi, know when to walk away. we have huge issues that need new solutions. we need new generational leaders. we appreciate your service. we appreciate what you've done. but this is why we will fight for term limits. we've got to get it done in america. >> donald trump is 77 years old. would he pass that mental acuity test? >> i don't know. i say everybody should take it. i'm willing to take it. i think everybody else should take it. >> you didn't say his name when you listed all those older washington lawmakers. >> that goes for all of them. you can look across d.c. of course i'm talking about trump. i've said that all throughout this campaign that it is time for us to have a new generation. republicans have lost the last seven out of eight popular votes for president. that's nothing to be proud of. we should want to win the majority of americans. we've got to start going with a new generation so that we can do that. >> before i let you go, i do
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want to ask you your thoughts on governor ron desantis. he signed that law changing curriculums in the state of florida with new standards, as you know, a lot of scrutiny about how slavery would be taught. do you think he has overstepped by attacking some of the black republicans in congress who have said they personally take issue with what he is doing and the language that he is defending? >> well, i haven't read the actual curriculum that he proposed in florida, but what i can say is it's the 21st century. and i think we can all agree that there was no -- there were no positives that came out of slavery. and i think everybody can and should agree on that. >> has he overstepped? >> well, i mean, i think he needs to go and talk with the republicans and democrats that have issues with this. he should come out and say no positives have come out of slavery. and i think that's what these republicans and democrats have asked him to say. >> thank you for your time
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