we go now to john lauro one of former president trump's lawyers that joins us from new york. good morning to you. i want to let you know we spoke with former vice president mike

pence and asked him about your assertions made this last week that all the president did was asked him to pause the certification on january 6th, 2021. he told me flatly, quote, that's not what happened. your response? >> that's not what i said, though, but that's okay. >> what is it that you believe happened between the president and the vice president and do you have any fear of the vice president being called as a witness in the case? >> no. in fact, the vice president will be our best witness. what i said is the ultimate ask of vice president pence was to pause the count and allow the states to weigh in. that was my statement. and what i've said is consistent with what vice president pence is saying. the reason why vice president pence will be so important to the defense is, number one, he agrees john eastman who gave

legal advice to president trump was an esteemed legal scholar. he agrees there were election irregularities, fraud, unlawful actions at the state level, all will eviscerate any allegations of criminal intent on the part of president trump and what vice president pence believes and believed, these issues needed to be debated on january 6th. he openly called for all of these issues to be debated and objected to in the january 6th proceeding. president trump, on the other hand, believed following the advice of john eastman, who is a legal scholar, that these issues needed to be debated at the state level, not the federal level. of course there was a constitutional disagreement between vice president pence and president trump, but the bottom line is, never -- never in our country's history has those kinds of disagreements been prosecuted criminally. it's unheard of. >> john, can i ask you a

cobac comcouple basic yes or no questions. are there any conditions your client would accept a plea deal on these january 6th charge? >> no. >> will you seek a motion to dismiss. >> absolutely 100%. >> when? >> within the time permitted. this is called a swiss close indictment. it has so many holes that we're going to be identifying and litigating a number of moegsz that we're going to file on first amendment grounds, on the fact that president trump is immune as president from being prosecuted in this way. >> do you have a ballpark figure of when you would be ready for trial? >> well, i can tell you that in 40 years of practicing law, on a case of this magnitude, i've not known a single case to go to trial before two or three years. >> understood. are you still going to pursue a change of venue? >> absolutely. we would like a diverse venue a

diverse jury. >> do you have any expectation that will be granted? >> that reflects the characteristics of the american people. it's up to the judge. i think west virginia will be an excellent venue to try this case. close to d.c. and a diverse -- >> understood. speaking of the judge, this week your client, the former president, said on a social media platform that the judge is unfair. on what basis did he say that? >> well, the problem with bringing a case like this in the middle of a campaign season is statements will be made in the context of a campaign, we expect a fair and just trial in the district of columbia and my role, my role, is simply to ensure that president trump's rights, just like every american's rights, are protected every step of the way, and i'm going to do that. >> you mentioned discovery. in the protective order back and forth between you and the prosecutors, it says, the

prosecution, that discovery will be provided, quote, as soon as possible. including certain discovery to which the defendant is not entitled. what's wrong with that? >> we're all in favor of protecting sensitive and highly sensitive information, but it's unprecedented to have all information hidden in a criminal case, including, by the way, information that might be exculpatory and might be exon rative of president trump. the biden administration wants to keep that information from the american people. >> in the back and forth on this matter, you also said in the filing to the court that former president would be willing to come to an agreement on this matter, what i want to ask you, would that requirement be something where the president would agree not to release any information that was highly sensitive in this matter and wold he also refrain from any speech that called for or hinted at retribution about anyone associated with the prosecution of this case? >> he's never called for that at

all. he's going to abide by the conditions of his release. of course, we would agree that any sensitive or highly sensitive information be kept under wraps. in fact, we made that proposition to the biden administration, but they rejected it. they want every single piece of evidence in this case hidden from the american public. >> before i let you go, do you remember what you were doing the early morning of november 9th, 2016? >> i have no idea. >> well, i remember what i was doing. i was covering president-elect trump announcing he had won the presidency about 3:00 a.m. that morning after the november 8th question. my question to you, john, how did he know he won? >> well, politicians are convinced in the righteousness of their cause, including president trump, and he certainly believed he won -- >> on what basis did he know he

won? >> can i finish? can i finish? >> sure. >> can i finish? and he believed in 2020 that he won based on the fact that he had 10 million more votes than in 2016. he had a situation where somehow president biden or at that time candidate biden received 15 million more votes than hillary clinton, and he also understood in 2020 that president trump understood he had won virtually all of the bellwether counties and 84% of the county in the country. >> let me -- >> on that basis -- >> let me help you with this. i wasn't asking about 2020. >> let me help you with this -- >> i wasn't asking about 2020, john. i wasn't asking about 2020. i was asking about 2016. >> right. >> because the votes were still being counted in 2016. the votes were still being counted in 2016. there had been no recount. how did he know in 2016 he had won? how did he know? on what basis?

>> the issue, let me tell you something, the issue in this criminal case is not what happened in 2016 and whether all candidates say they won. the issue now is in 2020 whether or not the justice department can weaponize criminal law to go after a political opponent and prevent that opponent from running for office. that's the issue. not what happened in 2016. >> john lauro, we thank you for your time. >> do you think it's fair that -- do you think it's fair what the biden administration is doing to a candidate for in the president? >> thank you for your time. we appreciate it. >> thank you. >> we will be right back. shshe runs andnd plays like a pupuppy again.. his #2s arare perfect!t! he's's a brand n new dog, all in l less than a a year. when peoeople switchch theieir dog's fofood from kie to the f farmer's dodog, they oftften say ththat it feelels like magag. but therere's no magagic invo. (d(dog bark) it's simplply fresh memeat and vevegetables,, withth all the n nutrients dogs need-d— instead d of dried p pellet.

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and lost my dad in vietnam in 1969, lived with my great grandparents for 2 1/2 years. i was adopted when i was 3 by an extraordinary dad into a remarkable family and know something about living on both sides of the advantage. i woke up the morning after the 2016 election the one you spoke about, saw fear in my daughter's eyes, my two daughters, recognized at that moment that millions of americans have fear and i promised them i would do something. i ran for congress and i ran a campaign that was about everybody being invited. that was my slogan. i listened to democrats, republicans, independents and discovered that everybody wants the same thing. everybody. we want to be safe, we want to have security, both economic and otherwise, and we want opportunity and we want unity. serving our country in congress has been a joy. i know you don't hear that too off. i've discovered that everybody in the middle, the massive majority of americans, are sick of anger entertainment, telling us we're more divided than we

are, sick of members of kings, state houses, attacking each other instead of problems. they want their families back, friendships back, communities back, they want unity. i want to give voice to them and democrats. i'm a life-long passionate democrat inspired by hubert humphrey and martin luther king. democrats are telling me that they want not a coronation, but a competition. "the new york times" poll from this week shows 55% of democratic voters want some alternatives to the current people in the primary. 83% of those under 30, democrats under 30, want alternatives and about 76% are independent. so i just want to make my case -- >> when will you decide. let me get to my point. >> i have given you some room. >> you have. >> if we don't heed that call, shame on us. the consequences are going to be disastrous. my call is to those who are well positioned, well prepared, of good character and competency, they know who they are, to jump

in because democrats and the country need competition. it makes everything better. that's my call to them right now. >> so if they don't, you will? >> i'm not saying i will. look, i think i'm well positioned to be president of the united states. >> you to? >> i do not believe i'm well positioned to run for it right now. people who are should jump in. we need to meet the moment. that is what country is asking. >> i gave you running room. let's tighten up the answers if we can. >> sure. >> can president biden beat donald trump? >> i think he can. but i think the only way to determine that objectively is to go through a process. by the way, before it's too late, i want to tell you this about president biden, an amazing man, i love the man. he is competent. he is honorable. his integrity i believe is unvarnished, has led this country through extraordinarily difficult times. this is not about him, this is about listening to people, and i'm afraid in the bubble in washington, people get real tone deaf real fast and we should be listening. that's what this is about. it's my call to action. >> assess robert f. kennedy

jr.'s campaign? >> first of all, i like competition. i'm pleased -- >> is he an adequate competitor? >> not the one i'm looking for. i don't believe him to be a democrat -- >> let me say this. >> in what's happened around him -- >> i think there is. he's using a similar playbook to a former president who did the same in the republican party a little while ago, and i think we should be cautious of that. i think that's why we need alternatives. i don't believe him to be a democrat. i do believe that speech is good, more speech is even better. we need alternatives for the massive majority of the middle in america. >> want to make sure -- you don't believe robert f. kennedy jr. is a democrat? >> not from the positions he's been taking no. >> assess cornell west, any anxiety of him running as a green party candidate? >> i do. anybody who wants to turn the page and go to the future in this country should be worried about cornell west. any third party entrants that would take votes from whoever will likely take on the nominee from the gop and that is likely

donald trump. i would ask others contemplating third party runs, think about your legacy, the future, and consolidate around entering a democratic primary because that's why we have primaries, competition. >> if there's a conversation you say needs to occur within the democratic party about an alternative to the sitting president of the united states, why isn't the leading contender for that the sitting vice president of the united states kamala harris? >> i think we have a -- i think we live in an era of fear. what if i get out of line and take on my party. >> is she not qualified stw? >> i think she's absolutely qualified. i think everybody should take a little bit of time and sit with people, observe them, know them before you draw conclusions. i think she is more competent and able than many give her credit for. the job of the vice president is not an easy one. >> would she be the heir apparent if the president of the united states were not to seek the nomination. >> my answer is simple. competition as many people

possible with the talent, time, the energy, the ethics, to enter a primary should do it. we have 12 republicans as options for republican primary voters. right now only three on the democratic side. we're the democratic party. democracy means the freedom to make choices and we don't have many. >> let me ask you a question, you've invoked the names of many minnesota democrats. eugene mccarthy ran in 1968 against a well positioned president with a substantial record of accomplishment for democratic party agenda items and said the reason he had to run was because of the overwhelming issue of vietnam, it had to be addressed. dean phillips, what's the vietnam of this election? >> the vietnam of this election everybody knows and it's about turning the page to the future. that is the vietnam of right now. that's the quagmire in which we find ourselves. mr. hurd you had on the show, if you could see the green room moments ago, the comradery between democrats and republicans who all want the same thing, was represented right there. i want to remind the american people, that's the vietnam of

right now. the quagmire in which we find ourselves we will not get out of from a single leader. if everybody takes a pause, starts reaching out their hands to one another again, starts electing and selecting people of competency and good character, we're going to get out of this, and i'm optimistic. >> dean phillips, keep in touch. >> thank you, major. >> we'll be back in just a moment. (warehouse ambience)

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welcome back. up now, cbs news cyber security expert and analyst chris krebs. who as head of sisa announced after the 2020 election it was the, quote, most secure election in history. the former president disagreed and memorably to chris, fired him. chris, good to see you. >> good to see you. >> what was the basis of that statement? it was the most secure election in american history? >> let's contextualize that statement a little bit. it was issued november 12th by a group known as the election subsector joint coordinating council. this was leaders from the federal government, state government, and local government election involved in the administration of elections alongside those from the private sector and those that support.

>> across the country? >> yes. this was my not statement. this was not sisa statement. >> not a red or blue statement? >> it was a bipartisan joint statement by those actually involved in the day-to-day administration of elections, and it was their real-time, in the moment, perspective of what was happening around the united states election at that point. the important part is that it wasn't just about november 3rd and what immediately preceded and what immediately followed. it was a collective effort, really spanning back from my perspective back to 2017, that joint effort we had worked to develop strong partnerships around election security within the federal government, but also with state and local elections -- >> as i understand it president trump encouraged you to do that work? >> we had the full support of the white house, national security council and those within the orbit of the prsident. i briefed the vice president, who was on earlier, several

times on election security. >> what is sisa? >> the cyber security and infrastructure security agency established by president trump in 2018 and the current director calls it the nation's civilian cyber defense agency. >> and at any time when you were briefing the vice president or president or senior administration officials about the work you were doing and what it was leading up to in the 2020 election did they raise any concerns about your ability, acuity, trustworthiness or the trustworthiness of the data getting back to you? m >> we had full support not just from the white huse and the textive branch, but from congress. i personally briefed will hurd several times, briefed a range of senators and members of the house of representatives throughout 2020 on our efforts to secure the 2020 election and received, as i said, full-throated support. >> and when you say security, what does that mean? does that mean no penetration and that's it, or does it mean

other things under the umbrella of security and secure elections? >> our efforts starting in 2017 were to work with established relationships where we could share information and provide cyber security services to state and local election officials so they could harden their systems and increase the resilience of those systems. the key takeaway as i see it for the 2020 election, is that it was effectively the most audited and most papered election in recent history. >> why is that important? >> well, your colleague, david becker, your co-author, runs the center for election and innovation research, and he conducted a study that says in 2016, less than 80% of ballots cast had a paper record associated with it. paper records are important because you can audit the results. if there are any questions you can go back, check your math and ensure the accounting was accurate. by the time the 2020 election rolled around, due to combined

efforts of federal and state and local election officials, that number increased to around 95% of votes cast, including every one of those close call states. importantly, pennsylvania and georgia both switched systems that had paper ballots associated with the vote and you could count and recount and audit. georgia recounted or audited several times post-november 3rd. >> and those systems that do that auditing were secure? >> absolutely. based on our work with the intelligence community our understanding -- >> and what state officials told you and localofficials? >> absolutely. look, you know, i continue to think that there are any number of state election officials that had every incentive in the world to prove something happened to deliver an outcome to president trump but that never happened. >> there are those on the trump side of the ledger who think you might just be a beltway insider, wise guy, who came to a

conclusion and tried to sell it to the president and just because he didn't believe you, he had a right to do other things? how would you respond? >> he certainly has the right to claim that he won or, you know, it was stolen from him, but as we heard, when he takes that action towards the criminal conspiracy, that's a different matter. again, our role at cisa was in support of state and local election officials ensuring their voices were heard and the work they were doing got to the american people to instill and restore confidence in our public institutions. >> were you interviewed by the special counsel? >> i was. >> would you appear as a witness? >> of course. of course. >> do you regard this case as persecution of the former president politically or otherwise? >> well, it's certainly prosecution -- >> that's his word is persecution. >> look, this is going to play out as it plays out. and i -- duly authorized investigation by the attorney general, you know, it's in the

courts now. >> what are your concerns, i know you're on the outside now but keep in close contact with those who are monitoring 2024, about these underlying security and functionality issues? >> well, i think any time that you put technology systems into a process or into any sort of work flow, there's absolutely the possibility that there are vulnerabilities or misconfigurations that can takeplation. t place. the thing is you don't have single points of failure, where a flufrts hardware or software doesn't result in an undermining of the entire process. in the fbi and cisa continue to say there's no known capability by an adversary that has been able to change or disrupt the casting, the counting, and the certification of a vote. i continue to have concerns, however, that we are not moving fast enough to get rid of some of these legacy systems and reducing vulnerabilities to stay ahead of what's an intelligent,

continually improving adversary. >> very quickly, how concerned are you about threats to those who work at the local level on election administration? >> absolutely. as we saw in '22 the threats to election administration officials is off the chart and it's resulting actually in these officials retiring and leaving the workforce. we're seeing a sort of voter suppression of another kind where there may not be enough opportunities to administer the election process which will cut down on opportunities for people to vote. >> chris krebs, thank you for coming in this morning. >> thanks, major. >> we'll be right back. only $41. dealdash.com, online auctions since 2009. this playstation 5 sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. i got this kitchenaid stand mixer for only $56. i got this bbq smoker for 26 bucks. and shipping is always free. go to dealdash.com right now and see

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that does it for today. we thank you for watching. margaret will be back next week. for "face the nation" i'm major garrett. by the way, i'm not a fan of penalty kicks.

york. >> announcer: this is the "cbs overnight news." good evening. jericka is off. i'm robert