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good morning and welcome to mosaic. i am ron swisher. i want to thank elizabeth and the staff for giving such a wonderful tribute to hugh burrell's last month. he was a long time host as well as producer. over 30 years i met him in the early 70s when i began a ministry in east oakland and he was at the high street presbyterian church and i was set elmhurst united methodist church and we were involved in the east oakland clergy. the president was dr. jay alford smith and he got us involved in city council, school lord and emphasis on social justice began. and hugh was a pastor for 13 years. we continue ministry together and 17 years ago he asked me to host here and i was mentored

along with elizabeth , being a host and we are grateful for all of his ministry. we want to thank gail, his wife, for the wonderful celebration of his life. we had that about five weeks ago. blessings to you and your family and all that you contribute. you have been all over the world with hugh . your ministry to pakistan and the many trips. we are grateful for all that he has done. one of the persons he admired deeply in his ministry, as many have was howard thurman, the great spiritual, religious giant. whenever i have this guest on, he said you allow time for this guest. reverend blake, great to have you. >> it is great to be here. i appreciate the invitation and opportunity. >> you told me earlier , you had been there how many years? >> 25 plus. i went to philip's it church in 1992. the actual

celebration of 25 years will be next year. and we will have a major conference. not just -- where we are trying to expand it for two or three days. we have to create something new. we have to create a world that works for more people. that will be the focus next year. we hope to have it for three days. >> the church for the fellowship of all people is where? >> san francisco. 2041 larkin street on broadway between broadway and valejo. the chirp -- church for the fellowship of all people was the nations first international and interfaith church. we have

been going for 74 years. extra 75. >> you are talking about different religious backgrounds. and races of people. different creeds. >> yes. it includes many jewish folks in the congregation. buddhists. communists . people with no religious background that they have found this. dr. thurman has attracted many of them. his book, some people said and red, is this what the search is about ? i want to be part of this. it is probably his most well-recognized book and was very influential dr. king, samuel proctor, many other people. >> and he met with gandhi and had tremendous influence. >> he met with gandhi in 1936.

he was part of the pilgrimage with two other people. it was not until 1936 he met with gandhi. and they discussed nonviolence. and that is when gandhi said it could be through that's at that time the american the grow, that nonviolence would have is greatest exhibition. >> i thought of, why does howard thurman matter? this day. back to that. thank you. please join us as we talk further about how howard thurman and his spirituality impacted all of us. thank you for being with us.

welcome back to "mosaic". we have been talking to reverend blake about howard thurman. i asked, why does howard thurman matter? >> howard thurman believes in the search for common ground. he spent his whole lifetime wanting, he said, for me to be me and you to be you. if i go down deep inside of myself with my deep spirituality i will come up inside of you. he believed that we were related. spiritually related. and what hurt you, hurt me and he was always on what he called , trying to find the same thing in you as i find myself. he is important because, especially today, because he through the church and other places put a model for people

to come together. not to divide but to come together. he believed where we are stripped to the literal substance of ourselves, we stand before god neither male or female, black or white , there is a presence. there is a human soul that is developed. that is not negating our identity, social identities. it is a way of saying there is something within each person that longs for , the hunger of the hurt, that longs for connection, not only with ourselves but what he calls the all pervading presence. >> that is tremendous . a summary. that is touching the surface. it is wonderful. one of my favorite quotes is, find the green in your own would. >> that is what he used to tell me. he matters because his spirituality helped me to find my own spirituality. and to be comfortable in my search for my own spirituality. and what i

mean is i grow baptist and my father is a baptist minister. i have no problem with that , at all. but as a young person i guess i could not be confined , and i found truth in poetry and truth elsewhere but i wondered, does this violate my baptist understanding? this is not christian. i am reading someone that is not a christian but the person speaks to me. dr. thurman told me it was okay. he said what is true in religion, is true because it is true. it is not true because it is in that religion. that allowed me to explore the truth wherever in poetry or nature, that is one of his foundations. he loved his oak tree in his backyard. he loved to hear the ocean. he always liked to stay near water. the ocean. it was the freeing of the human spirit, his search for truth , wherever you may find it and accepted as truth. >> that is really good. i mentioned helen keller recently and she said if she could see she wanted to spend three days

, the first day seeing her friends, the second day seeing nature, and the third day to see new york city. >> with the energy. >> she was an extraordinary person. >> you touched on it. you mentioned gandhi. let's go back and his influence and the way he talked about nonviolence and the jesus and the disinherited. i remember align, what do you do when your back is against the wall? >> that is why he wrote jesus disinherited because he could not find many services that have been preached about the person with her back against the wall in terms of how he matters, look today with so many people with their backs against the wall who do not have control of the society. you are constantly crushed by society. his quest was, how do you live in that kind of situation and retain or maintain your own integrity?

when you talk about spiritual, he said we are coming jacobs ladder and my question is, how have you lived your life in acknowledgment of your truth . what he is trying to say is how do you carve out, how do you negotiate life and maintain your integrity in an oppressive situation. it is said that jesus did it and here is what jesus did. he made certain decisions about how he was going to live his life . and we all have to do that and he dealt with those things that really oppressed the oppressed. oppressed people are afraid. they don't know what society will do to them. they are afraid to of certain encounters with people. and that fear keeps them incarcerated. people survive by trying to deceive to wear a mask or by being hypocritical. his point was, if you do that, even though there could be justification for it, you don't want to tell people your business when you try to negotiate with people in power and they don't want them to crush you. the more you deceive, the more likely it is

that you will become a deception yourself. >> amen to that. >> he talks about hatred and how that consumes a person. when you hate some person, the person controls you. the hatred destroys your creativity and keeps you from being creative because your whole living, your thoughts go toward the hated object or the hated person. rather than can taking control of your life and moving forward. that is needed today. we have a lot of reaction to what is going on, but how do we take control of our lives and create the kind of all that needs to be? he says we need to do it but there has to be discipline and you have to make choices and be willing to make commitment . face the consequences of that commitment or the choices. but we can do it. one of the most radical things he says when you read that, at the end, he said jesus did it and he talks about the religion of jesus. he talks about the humanity of jesus. he said because jesus was a human being , who may be's decisions, and became an extraordinary

person, that we still talk about. he took away all of our excuses. >> i hate to stop it right there but we have to go to a break. but that is a great understanding . of howard thurman and jesus. thank you. please come back, i know you're anxious to hear more in our next segment with reverend dr. dorsey blake.

we have been with reverend dr. dorsey blake and he has share with us a great deal. even in these few minutes i asked about some books, if you want to know more about howard thurman. tell us about the books. >> i think the most critical book to read is jesus and the disinherited. that is the book the first came. and he has a few books on meditations. for people interested in racial issues and the racial divide and how can to be, voluminous darkness. is a fabulous book. many people to know of that book. dr. thurman's own choice of favorite book was, the inward journey. >> okay. >> to get a better understanding , i would read his autobiography . for those who like centering prayer,

centering moment. there were so many books he wrote that speak so deeply. the other is the meaning of christmas. >> i was going to mention that. >> it has so much beautiful poetry. >> great ones. the parables of jesus. his sermons. i just picked it up. i am fascinated . >> after you told me . they will order copies. >> i think i got the last copy. >> yes, you did. >> tell us about the road . >> at my installation service in 1994 it was a difficult time during my life. and what happened, at my installation service in 1994, i was presented with dr. fuhrman's robe and it wiped me out . right before it was presented, she said this robe has not been worn since howard's death.

>> this was in 1981? >> 1984. >> no one and kept it . i cannot speak. finally, lawrence lakey and lolita, and so on. in the third sunday in january, which is martin luther king sunday, we will have eric williams who was with the smithsonian institute african-american institute museum and i will present to him the howard for monroe but . i have had it all the time and only one other person has worn it and it is my co-minister, dr. benton. but it has been there and it is fragile and i thought it may be an inspiration. i was contacted by them about a photo of dr. thurman and i thought, what about his robe? yes . we will be presenting the robe. and

we have the robe of dr. fisk, the cofounder. we will be giving both photos of each of them in the robe of dr. fuhrman and the robe of dr. alfred fisk. >> we just have one minute. we cannot go without mentioning the 139 psalms. why did he love that one so much? >> because it is so intimate. about knowing me and searching me. it is the walk . talks about the light in the darkness. the light in the darkness of both a light. he is dealing with, we all have dichotomies and that is what happens in life. we have dichotomies. he says, no. even with god, darkness and light. unity. >> you have to come back. and you have over the years. thank

you. praise god. >> thank you. >> continue the tremendous what you are doing. we are learning from it. i hope you will be with us and continue with us next month. i am on swisher. -- i am on swisher.

we have been with reverend dr. dorsey blake. and he is sharing a great deal. even in these few minutes. i asked about some of books if you wanted to know more about howard thurman and a robe. tell us about the books 1st. >> i think the most critical book to read is jesus and the disinherited. that is the book that first came. that he has

books on meditations. for people interested in racial issues and the racial divide and how it can to be, voluminous darkness . is a fabulous book. many people don't know of that book. dr. thurman's choice of his favorite book was the inward journey. to get a better understanding , i would read his autobiography. with head and heart. for those who like centering prayer, the centering moment. there are so many books that he wrote that speak so deeply. the other is the mood of christmas. >> he loved that. >> it has so much beautiful poetry. >> great ones. one just came out, the parables of jesus. >> i am glad you told me about that. >> his sermons. i just picked it up. >> i am fascinated by that and i have ordered copies.

>> i think i got the last copy. tell us about the robe. >> at my installation service in 1994, it was a difficult time during my life . what happened was, i was presented with dr. thurman's robe and it wiped me out. right before it was presented, she said this robe has not been worn since howard's death. >> this was in 1981? >> this was in 1984. all those years, nobody wore it and she kept. she placed it on me. i could not speak. i just stood there and finally lawrence lakey , and lolita, they held me. on the third sunday in

january, which is martin luther king sunday. we will have eric williams, with the smithsonian institute african-american museum . i will be presenting to him the howard thurman road . i have had it all the time. there is only one person that is worn that and it is my co-minister, dr. benton. it has been there and it is a little fragile and i thought it might be an inspiration . i was contacted by them about a photo of dr. thurman and i said, what about his robe. and she said, yes. we will present the robe. and we have the robe of dr. alfred fisk. the cofounder of the church. we will be giving both photos of each one of them and the robe of dr. thurman and the robe of dr. fisk. >> it is wonderful. we have one minute. we cannot go without mentioning the 139 psalms. why

did he love that so much? >> it is so intimate. searching me and knowing me. it is the walk, and he talks about the dark and light this. both the light and darkness are a light to me. he is dealing with the, for him. we all have dichotomies. that happens in life . we have dichotomies. he says, no. the darkness and light. the unity. >> you have to come back. and you have over the years. thank you. praise god. >> thank you. >> continue the tremendous work you are doing. we are learning from it. i hope you will be with us and continue with us next month. i am ron

swisher.