ukraine has documented cases of more than 19,000 children abducted by russia during the war. but they worry the actual number is closer to 300,000 children. >> putin! >> we wanted to know how russia was doing it and what was happening to ukraine's missing children.

"60 minutes" followed one brave grandmother's mission to rescue her grandson from the russians. it was america's deadliest wildfire in 100 years. at least 99 people were killed. 2,000 homes and businesses stroyed. tonight we'll explain what happened on the island of maui. >> your engine was right there? >> yeah, right there. >> and you'll hear an amazing rescue story from inside the inferno. >> you can't teach that kind of heroism. ♪ so you are bruce springsteen's best friend, his underboss. >> don't get me wrong -- >> you also have a breakout role as tony soprano's most trusted adviser. who has this life? little steven van zandt. >> i don't want to liken bruce

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it's impossible for ukrainian families to shield their children from the constant violence of russia's war.

but tonight we'll tell you about a lesser known and perhaps more sinister danger they face, the russian abduction of ukrainian children. in the chaos of war, exact numbers are hard to come by. officially, the ukrainian government has documented more than 19,000 children taken by russia, but told us they worry the actual number could be closer to 300,000 children. the international criminal court has charged russian president vladimir putin and his commissioner for children's rights with the war crimes of unlawful deportation and transfer of children. this summer we followed one ukrainian grandmother on an undercover mission deep into enemy territory to find her grandson before he completely disappeared. polina packed what little she could and caught a 20-hour train from poland to kyiv to meet with a nonprofit called save ukraine.

they promised to help her find 9-year-old nikita. she traveled light but carried the weight of a grandmother's worry. >> translator: he means everything to me. he is my air, my sky, my water. i live for him. he's my life. i love him very much. >> reporter: polina, who asked us not to use her last name, is in the process of filing for guardianship of her grandson. she left ukraine so she could work to support nikita, who has special needs. >> translator: the russian federation stole him. they abducted him. >> did the russians ask anyone for permission to move nikita? did they tell anyone they were moving him? >> translator: no, they didn't tell anyone anything. they simply removed him and hid him. >> reporter: last october nikita was living in a boarding school for disabled children when the russian authorities ordered all 86 kids there to be

transferred deeper into russian-controlled territory. >> translator: i came home after work. i opened instagram, and there was a picture of my child, nikita, with a caption, "russia is taking children." >> reporter: polina says the russians played a cruel game of hide and seek, moving nikita at least three times in eight months, including to an orphanage in russia. what were those eight months like for you? >> translator: really bad, really bad. i wouldn't sleep at night. i didn't want to go to work. i didn't even want to live because i had no one to live for. and then i found this website, save ukraine, on facebook, and i called them. >> reporter: the phones never seem to stop ringing at the save ukraine headquarters in kyiv. so far, they've rescued more

than 200 kids from kindergartners to teenagers. we met the founder, mykola kuleba, at one of save ukraine's shelters for reunited families. how long do the families stay here? >> up to three months. >> reporter: kuleba served as ukraine's presidential commissioner for children's rights for nearly eight years. now he runs these secret rescue missions, which rely on an underground network of safe houses and volunteers, including russians who oppose the war. >> i can't tell you how many organizations involved and volunteers. >> dozens? >> maybe hundreds. >> hundreds. is there one piece of advice that every mother must know before she starts this journey? >> we explaining them that russians will intimidate you. they will be doing everything to stop you, to provoke you. that's why you should focus on your child.

your goal is to take your child and not be afraid. >> reporter: but it's hard not to be afraid. these women have to travel alone while the men stay behind to fight. just before the mothers leave, they get a safety briefing where they learn how to craft cover stories for when, inevitably, they are interrogated by russian forces. when they return, their stories become evidence that save ukraine sends to the international criminal court. >> putin! >> reporter: russia's goal, kuleba says, is to steal the ukrainian kids' future by erasing their past. >> their plan is to destroy ukrainian identity. they brainwash them, indoctrinate them, russify them. they have special classes for ukrainian children, when they teach them what is the russian empire, what future they can have in russia because about

ukraine, it's only bad things. >> what risk do these children pose to russia if they come back home into ukraine? >> every child is a war crime witness. >> every child is a war crime witness? >> every child. yeah, every child. >> reporter: vlad rudenko was 16 when he was taken last october. he says armed men showed up at his door while his mother, tetiana bodak, was out. >> translator: they told me, you need to pack your things. i said, i will call my mom. they said, don't bother. you are coming with us anyway. >> reporter: after that, vlad says he was ordered to board a bus, part of a 16-vehicle convoy full of kids that drove to a camp in russian-controlled crimea. moscow claims it's evacuating kids from the fighting in eastern and southern ukraine. but we've learned russia often pressures poor ukrainian parents to send their children to

schools and these camps, where the kids spend their days with russian children. images of happy kids are the propaganda russia wants the world to see. but several ukrainian kids told us what happens in these camps is less about recreation and more about indoctrination. they are told repeated lies, like ukraine lost the war and their parents don't want them. vlad secretly sent his mother this video and said, speaking ukrainian, talking about ukraine or even wearing ukraine's colors was forbidden. every morning at a camp like this, vlad told us the ukrainian children were forced to sing the russian national anthem. vlad refused to fall in line. one night, he decided to take down the russian flag. and then what happened? >> translator: they came over and told me to pack up. they said we are going to the detention ward. so we went to the ward, and i

said, i'm not staying here. i'll break everything in here. they told me, we'll call a psychiatric hospital for you then. but in the end, they locked me up anyway in the detention ward for five days. >> you were in isolation for five days? >> translator: yes. one more day, and i probably would have hanged myself. >> tetiana, what do you think when you hear that? >> translator: i can't. i just can't find the words because there is a lot of things he didn't tell me. and maybe i am scared to find out something that i'd better not know. >> reporter: by the time tetiana rescued vlad with save ukraine's help, she had lost eight months with her son. did he look different to you? >> translator: yes. i remember he left as a kid, but then when i met him again, i saw a man with an adult vision of

life. his eyes just gave him up. >> reporter: polina couldn't risk losing any more time with nikita. the night before she left, she gathered gifts for her grandson. this bus station was as far as our cameras could go, but nine days in, she managed to call while we were with the save ukraine team. a translate late -- translator relayed her harrowing trip. >> i was moving there in a car throughout that minefield. there was a heavy smell of dead bodies there. >> reporter: what polina couldn't tell us over the phone was that she and save ukraine hatched a plan to get past a border checkpoint near the school in occupied territory where nikita was held. she pretended to be an aid worker. her driver recorded as she walked into the building. >> translator: the director asked me, how did you get here? i told him, i'm a volunteer.

i came here from poland and brought you some humanitarian aid. i needed to say something to be able to see nikita and figure out a way to get him out of there. this was the only way to do it. >> reporter: and then she finally identified herself as nikita's grandmother and gave the school director a ukrainian document authorizing her to take nikita home. he refused. >> translator: the director said to me, he's mine. i'm his guardin. and i said, but i'm his grandmother. you have no right because he has a biological grandmother who will take him back. this is my child. >> reporter: last year, vladimir putin changed the law to make it easier for some ukrainian children to receive russian citizenship, allowing them to be adopted by russian families. and putin's top deputy in charge

of children's rights, maria lvova-belova, posted these videos of what she described as ukrainian orphans with their adoptive parents. lvova-belova herself says she adopted a 15-year-old ukrainian boy from the occupied city of mariupol. polina showed us the documents that led her to believe nikita was also about to be adopted. so this is the ukrainian birth certificate. born in ukraine. ukrainian child. and this is what russia made and this -- what does this say? >> translator: it says that he's a citizen of the russian federation. >> it's almost hard for me to get my head around this. your grandson is a ukrainian citizen, and you're telling me you believe the russians were on the verge of giving him to a russian family, of adopting him out to another family. >> translator: yes, yes. >> reporter: she says the school

called her ukrainian documentation fake and demanded a dna test. they kept polina waiting for the results. for 70 days she refused to back down, until finally polina was led into a room where she heard this. >> babushka! >> reporter: there to personally oversee the reunion, maria lvova-belova. russian cameras recorded as the accused war criminal handed nikita gifts. she also made them an offer. >> translator: lvova-belova said to me, would you like to stay with us in the russian federation maybe? we will give you some money. we will give you a car. >> reporter: they tried to get you to stay with nikita? >> translator: yes, yes.

i said, i don't need anything. i have everything. >> reporter: maria lvova-belova insists russia does not put ukrainian children up for adoption and that it makes every effort to return them. on social media she called polina and nikita's reunion a joy and wished them a, quote, happy life. finally reunited, polina and nikita began the long trip back to safety, driving day and night for a week. we were with the save ukraine team when they arrived in poland. they plan to live here until the war is over. what do you want to do with your grandmother now? nikita told me he wants to play toys with her. and with a smile, he proudly said, "this is my mother, my grandmother."

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the wildfire in august that ripped through the hawaiian town of lahaina was america's deadliest in 100 years. at least 99 people were killed. you may recall the pictures of people jumping into the pacific ocean to escape as the fire burned most of the historic town in a matter of hours. but there's an untold story about a group of firefighters who were also trapped while fighting fast-moving flames. tonight you will hear from those maui county firefighters about two of the worst hours of their lives. they took a stand to save their hometown without the thing they depend on the most -- water. the morning began with blue skies and winds gusting nearly 60 miles an hour. >> i was just watching the ocean and watching what was happening on the ocean and just never seeing that before. >> reporter: what was happening on the ocean? >> it was just like froth. it was completely white. and there was like whirlwinds that was -- sat out there for

over an hour. >> like they had been whipping? >> yeah, yeah. the winds were just nuts. >> reporter: firefighter aina kohler drives engine 3. she grew up in lahaina, the once postcard perfect town of 13,000 tucked between the west maui range and the sparkling pacific. in hawaiian, lahaina means cruel sun, but on august 8th, it was the wind, whipped up by a hurricane 500 miles offshore that showed no mercy. >> we're used to wind, but we weren't used to that kind of wind. i looked out my window and there was like a giant kiddie pool, one of the bigger ones, flying through the air, like 100 feet up. >> power line just went down. >> reporter: at 6:30 that morning, a resident recorded this video after a power line fell and ignited the dry grass that covers much of lahaina's hillside. at most, there are 17 firefighters on duty in west maui. kohler's crew of four relieved the firefighters that first responded.

>> we had contained it, meaning it wasn't getting any bigger. so now we were just putting water on all the hot spots to make sure that it was -- everything was fully out, just dousing everything in water. >> reporter: how long were you out there? >> we were probably till like 2:00. then we went on some calls in the neighborhood right next door, downed poles that were leaning on houses and downed lines. >> reporter: around 3:00, aina kohler's crew was called back to the area of the morning brushfire. this is police video. the hillside was on fire again. how fast was the fire moving at that point? >> i couldn't tell. i could tell how fast the smoke was moving, and it was kind of like not even going up. it was going sideways. >> there's a big flame in here. >> reporter: the cause of the afternoon fire is still unknown, but mike walker had warned hawaiian lawmakers about the danger of overgrown grass here for five years. so how much of this is native to hawaii? >> none of it. >> reporter: walker is in charge

of fire protection for hawaii's department of land and natural resources. the type of grass he showed us is from africa. it was brought here a century ago for cattle grazing because it grows fast even with little water. what can you do to make sure that this isn't a tinderbox? >> well, a lot of the land right now is just unmanaged. it's either folks don't have the finances, or it's not economically worth it to work the land, or they're just banking the land for future development. i think you can see what happens when we do nothing. >> reporter: on august 8th, a few minutes after 3:00, wind carried burning grass toward homes half a mile away. >> and by the time i reported that over the radio, every structure i could see was on fire. >> reporter: 6'4" keahi ho is based in lahaina on ladder 3. he mans its biggest weapon, a cannon that shoots 2,000 gallons

of water a minute. >> it would just blow away, you know? i could stick it right in a window and put out that room, but the whole rest of the house is on fire. and then every other house is on fire. >> reporter: then something he'd never experienced left him stunned. the hydrants started to run dry. >> it was a real low point for me because we just -- i knew that we had lost, you know, that we were going to really -- this was going to be worse than we could imagine. >> reporter: the county's department of water supply told us the fire caused more than 2,000 pipe breaks, bleeding water out of the system. >> it was just somewhere around there that i heard that the -- where my mom's office is, which is a long ways away from where i was, was on fire. and then to know that it was there and to know that i was running out of water, i was like, man, it's over.

like, we're going to keep trying, but there's -- it's over. >> reporter: this was the view from inside a fire truck. black skies lit by an inferno that stretched for blocks. firefighters didn't have the water or the crews to stop it. >> come in, come in. >> reporter: residents say they never received an evacuation order. so by 4:00 p.m., police were racing around town to get people out. >> let's go! hurry up! [ bleep ]. hurry up! >> reporter: at the same time, reinforcements started to arrive from other fire stations across maui, including 26-year-old tanner mosher. he was with engine 6. >> once you got into the smoke, it was like five feet of visibility, maybe ten if you're lucky. >> it's like a blowtorch being blown at you. the heat was just so intense.

>> reporter: captain jay fujita has been a firefighter almost as long as tanner mosher has been alive. he commanded engine 1 to take a position next to mosher's crew. at 4:30, streets were clogged with the cars of residents and tourists. this was a 911 operator. >> you guys need to leave. if you can't -- if you can't drive away, get out of the car and run. >> reporter: the abandoned cars and a web of downed power lines trapped the eight firefighters and their two engines. >> once we determined we wouldn't be able to escape the street that we were on, we pulled a line to kind of protect ourselves from the fire. >> reporter: just to keep the fire away from you? >> yeah. but the hose burnt. >> reporter: so you don't have a hose. >> yep. >> reporter: and you can't get out? yeah. our only course of action was to shelter in place. >> reporter: inside the engines they relied on air tanks to breathe.

>> we were just conserving our air as much as possible and just sitting in our seats. we were just fixating on making it out, lasting. >> reporter: so at that point it's surviving. >> it's surviving for sure. i mean, we could see metal melting in front of our eyes. >> i had texted my wife. i told her i love her and to pass the message on to the rest of my family that i love them, that we're stuck there and we might not be able to make it out. but it was too hot in the truck, so my phone wasn't working. so the message didn't go through. >> i just remember being like, i can't give up yet. like, i got to do something. and so i remember looking out the window, and all of a sudden i could see engine 1 skeeter, mini one. >> reporter: the skeeter is a small fire truck, like this one. mosher jumped into it alone to see if he could clear a path for the engines to get out. mosher says when he realized the skeeter couldn't drive through

the barricade of cars, he made the snap decision to drive over them to find help. >> and so i just remember putting it in four-wheel drive and i launched the barricade. i kind of planed for a second. and i was like, oh, okay. i made it over. and at the end of the loss was a rock wall. so i launched over the rock wall and definitely caught some power lines. so i would just be driving through the smoke, not seeing anything. so i'm just like driving through, dodging stuff. >> reporter: his truck was damaged, but down the road he saw the lights of a police car. >> i just remember leaving most of my stuff in that truck, getting out, running to the cop and just telling him like, hey, i got guys in there. they need help. they're dying. and so he said, hey, you can take my squad vehicle. just come back. so i hopped in there and just started driving back into the smoke where i knew i came from, or remembered coming from. >> reporter: as mosher made his way back, captain fujita realized the fire truck was no

longer offering protection. >> i noticed our windshield failing. it started to fail. >> reporter: your windshield failing? what do you mean? >> so the windshield is made up of two panes of glass with a film in the middle. and that film was, you know, delaminating and bubbling in the windshield. >> reporter: so it's melting around you? >> yeah. so we got out of the truck, and we all sheltered behind the engine. and we heard like a chirping of a siren. but because of the smoke, we really couldn't see where it was coming from. but finally we see a police suv show up. >> reporter: it was tanner mosher. seven firefighters in gear crammed inside the suv mosher was driving, including his captain, mike mullalley, who was unconscious from smoke inhalation. he's on the far left in this picture taken before the fire. >> he was in the car, the suv with the door open and his boots were hanging but they weren't touching the ground. >> reporter: so they're just

holding on to captain? >> yeah. all the guys that were able to reach him were locked on. >> reporter: with his captain's legs dangling out, he jumped the loaded police suv to safety. did tanner mosher save your life that day? >> yes, he saved all of our lives. >> reporter: he's a young guy. >> you can't teach that kind of heroism. he just had it in him. >> reporter: once clear, the firefighters performed cpr and stabilized captain mullalley. >> and then all seven of us went back to work. >> reporter: you kept fighting fires? >> yep. all the way till the next morning. >> reporter: with little water, there was little they could do to save homes. so as the sun set, the firefighters' mission shifted to saving anyone they could, any way they could. aina kohler ditched her fire engine and used a pickup to snake through the burning debris downtown. a local, she knew every way in and out. >> there were some people in

their cars, stuck down there, not knowing which way to get out. and so i would jump in their car and i would drive their car out for them. >> reporter: so everybody's trying to get out, and you're going in? >> yeah. >> reporter: a mother of two said her family was able to escape, but like 16 other firefighters in lahaina, she lost her home. did you ever think, like, why me? >> no. i was like, every -- everything else is burned down, why not my house? you know, i didn't want to be feeling like i couldn't defend, you know, the entire town, and if my house was still standing, i'd probably have even more guilt. >> reporter: once the sparkling jewel of maui, this is lahaina today. its treasures now a sea of ash and charred metal. more than 2,000 homes and businesses were destroyed. hawaii's attorney general is investigating the cause of the afternoon fire and how the water system failed.

already in the hills above lahaina, the flammable grass that set the stage for this disaster is growing back. captain jay fujita took us to the street where his crew made its stand. your engine was right there? >> yeah, right there. >> reporter: those ashes in front of us are the outline of where fire consumed what was once engine 1. >> it's kind of like a grave, you know, coming back to see this. after we left, it still was hot enough and bad enough to burn the engine. >> reporter: to nothing. >> yeah. >> reporter: and what do you think about the fight now when you look back on it? >> i think we all feel -- wish we could have done more. we made it out and we're grateful, but at the same time, there's still people that didn't make it out. >> reporter: not far from where the lahaina fire began is a line of crosses, one for each person who died. the 100th victim was identified last week, but by our count,

maui firefighters rescued at least 200 people from the flames. i'm james brown with the scores from the nfl today. dtr's darian drive delivers the dogs a dramatic ducb. the raiders found a new favorite target. the jags ball because those dudes ain't playing. the boys bring a boom and bountiful beat down. devito was funny torching the commanders. for 24/7 news and highlights, go to cbssportshq.com. r new parent. but we're not stopping there. we think even cat ladies deserve rewards. left-handed people. people with birthdays. recent grads who can't move on with their lives. all of them and these people we found on the internet can be automatically enrolled in the progressive loyalty program

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steven van zandt embodies both the frustration and the beauty of the arts. there are no org charts, no official titles, no one way to do the job. he has discovered that it's easier to be this creative furnace, this volcano of artistic output when you are not the focus. the longtime guitarist and musical director for bruce springsteen and the e street band was also an underboss of a different kind, acting in one of history's most influential television shows, "the sopranos," all while trying to preserve rock and roll. the highway may be jammed with broken heroes yet little steven refuses to pick a lane. >> reporter: late on a sunday afternoon in may, steven van zandt was midway through a burst of furious creativity, tending to his latest screenplay. he had an idea he had to commit to the page. >> a couple singers who, you know -- my day job is leg breakers. >> reporter: where was this

quaint writers' retreat? in his backstage dressing room at a concert in rome. mere minutes before van zandt put his pen and pad away and then went onstage to perform at circus maximus, the ancient chariot arena, as a critical member of one of the most successful rock and roll acts of all time. >> come on, steve! ♪ >> reporter: we said we had to come see you guys perform in rome. of all the cities, all the gin joints, why rome? >> the fans here are just so much fun. you see everybody singing every single word of every single song, when they don't particularly speak english, right, you know, which is -- >> that's a validation. >> well, it's a validation. it's a show of the power of what we do. >> let's go! ♪ >> reporter: swaddled in his trademark bandanna and wrapped

in complexity, little steven, now 72, remains a true american original, the ultimate wingman. >> i'm not crazy about the spotlight. i could have been and maybe i should have been, okay? because, again, you realize that has big advantages. but naturally i just wasn't into it. i'd rather be standing next to the guy, let him be in the spotlight, let him take the heat, because i like to blend in actually. >> yeah, i can tell by the modest measured outfit. >> i gave up trying to analyze it years ago, but i prefer to be an observer rather than the observed. >> can i break it to you? >> do i need to lie down on the couch for this? >> reporter: one thing he's not questioning, his place in the band. >> people always say, aren't you worried about being replaced? i'm like, no, i can't be replaced. how many best friends do you have for 50 years, >> reporter: the best friend he references, of course, is springsteen. they met as teenagers in 1960s

jersey, misfits seduced by rock and roll. to quote little steven, the beatles revealed this new world to us. the rolling stones invited us in. they formed a band, anchored in the boardwalk town of asbury park. given that van zandt had a monthly overhead of $150 in rent, the going was good. more important, the band learned how to play live, how to marry musicianship with showmanship. >> the fact that we were in bars, you know, making our bones, you know, what, seven years before we got into the music business, right? >> you get into this game because it just -- this speaks to you. what's it brought you that you didn't expect? >> other than everything? you know what i mean? it was just everything. it saved my life. i mean, i didn't have any path forward. and so it brings you acceptance. you're part of something. and, man, it just came along right at the right time. you're making a living playing

rock and roll, man. that was the miracle. ♪ >> reporter: van zandt, who doesn't read or write music, brought his guitar chops and his musical ear. ♪ >> reporter: arranging the iconic horns on "tenth avenue freeze-out" and polishing springsteen's guitar lick on "born to run." ♪ >> reporter: how much credit do you take? how much credit should you take for the success of this band? >> i understood certain things earlier than everybody else. if you listen to "darkness on the edge of town" and listen to "river," the difference is me, you know. i'm not -- i'm never -- i'm not ever going to take more credit than the rest of this band, so i just was kind of helping shape things and trying to realize bruce's vision. it's his vision. i try to make bad things good,

good things great, and great things better, you know. >> reporter: yet after an argument over creative input, van zandt left the band in 1984 and was conspicuously absent on tour for springsteen's most commercially successful album. he had married actress maureen santoro and started writing songs for his own band, little steven and the disciples of soul. ♪ and he turned his attention to political activism, most note apply to apartheid in south africa. >> 26 million black people could not vote. they could not even have, you know, a cup of tea with a white person without permission. it's terrible. >> reporter: in 1985 van zandt wrote and co-produced the protest song "sun city." ♪ >> reporter: which cast the resort town three hours outside of johannesburg as a symbol of the moral failure of apartheid. van zandt didn't just get

colleagues to sing on an album. he got them to commit to a sun city boycott. you saw through that? >> yeah. so we used that as an example and we exposed that whole fraudulent scheme. >> ain't going to play sun city. >> yeah. >> reporter: in the late '90s, he and springsteen reconciled. and when the boss asked his buddy to rejoin the e street band, well, this gun was for hire. ♪ woke up this morning ♪ ♪ got yourself a gun ♪ >> reporter: but there was a hitch. van zandt had already committed to a new tv show on hbo. >> i don't think there's anything to gain by keeping him around. >> reporter: the creator david chase had seen van zandt at the rock and roll hall of fame and made him an offer he couldn't refuse. >> he calls and says, you know, you want to be in my new tv show? i said, wow, that's really nice, david. i really appreciate that. but, no, not really, you know. he said, what do you mean no? i'm like, i'm not an actor. isn't that a problem? >> reporter: van zandt says

chase wanted him to play the lead. >> he goes to hbo. hbo says, are you out of your mind? you're going to depend on a guy who never acted before >> reporter: nice guitar playing and all. >> yeah, are you nuts? >> reporter: "the sopranos" would elevate tv. while the lead would go to james gandolfini, van zandt would scene-steal as silvio dante, manager of the bada bing club. >> i knew if i could create the guy from the outside him, if i could see him in the mirror, i felt i could be him. and i was a little bit of a mob aficionado. i played the flamingo hotel. who has better credibility than that? >> reporter: the guy who played tony soprano's right hand man? he had more than a passing familiarity with the part. >> i don't want to liken bruce springsteen to a mob boss, but -- but you had that experience.

>> i know those dynamics, okay? i know being the only guy who's not afraid to tell the boss the truth. that's the job, okay? that's the gig. if you're the guy's best friend or the consigliere or the underboss, somebody has to be the one to occasionally bring bad news. >> reporter: what was an adjustment, the passive-aggressiveness of the acting stage. >> because now who's got more lines, who's in front of the camera at the right time. i'm sensing all this kind of weird, you know, a little bit weird -- i'm not used -- >> reporter: this tension. >> yeah. and i decided then, i'm going to turn this show into a rock and roll band, you know. before i'm done, okay, this show is going to be a band. it's one for all, you know, all for one, right? >> who's this guy? >> reporter: an original sopranos poster is one of the countless relics adorning his apartment in greenwich village. when the journey ended after

eight years, van zandt being van zandt, embarked on a new project. he started his memoir and he co-wrote and starred in "lily hammer," a mob show based in norway that became the first original series in a streaming service called netflix. >> where are you going? >> reporter: wait, there's more. concerned about the decline in rock venues and album sales, he launched a weekly radio program, little steven's underground garage. you wouldn't mind if you guys were supplanted a little bit by a new wave of e street bands? >> i would love that. >> reporter: he also somehow found the band width to launch teachrock, a free k through 12 curriculum that uses rock 'n' roll to sneak in teaching all the other stuff. >> we say, what are you listening to? well, i'm listening to beyoncé. oh, well, you know where beyonée comes from? she comes from a woman named aretha franklin. and aretha franklin, she comes

from a place called detroit, you know? we talk about detroit. and we talk about she comes from the gospel church. we talk about that. she was involved in civil rights, and we talk about that, you know? and they're listening, and they're paying attention. why? because we're on their turf. >> reporter: and yet we always hear about how art and music programs are getting cut in public schools. >> yes. >> reporter: why's that? >> because people don't understand, we're the only country in the world that thinks art is a luxury. everybody else in the world understands that art is an essential part of the quality of life. >> reporter: the current culture of the arts, the shifting state of play in music, makes him all the more grateful that a couple of jersey nonconformists timed it right. caught some breaks and became rock and roll titans. how do you even begin to start describing steven van zandt? >> i don't know if i can do that. except all i can say is i met him when he was 16. steve is the consigliere of the e street band.

if i have questions pertaining a direction for the band or issues with the band or something like the set list, i'm not sure what we're going to play that night or what we should start with or if he has second doubts about something, he always comes to me. so he's been essential to me since -- i don't know. since he walked into the studio during the "born to run" sessions and fixed the horns and my guitar parts. and we've been doing it together for a long time. and that's a wonderful thing. i mean, how many people have their best friend at their side 50-some years later? >> there you are, kid! >> what are you guys talking about? >> we like the same music. we like the same clothes. >> reporter: you guys meet as teenagers. you're these jersey outcasts. here we are more than 50 years later, and you're going out to play circus maximus in rome. >> it's something. >> you can't put it together. it's just one of those things that happened. >> reporter: how do you make

sense of that, seriously? >> well, in a way it makes sense because i think as we mentioned, we couldn't do anything else, so we were going -- we were destined to do this. >> and we did nothing else. so that has a lot to do with it, too. all we did was music, music, music, music, play, play, play, play. ♪ ♪ i'm going down to the well tonight going to drink until i get my fill ♪ >> reporter: that, we and the rest of the crowd, experienced for ourselves. ♪ hey steve ♪ ♪ yeah, baby ♪ ♪ i think it's time to go home now ♪ >> reporter: still rocking out in his 70s, trying to save radio, trying to save rock, writing screen plays, if steven van zandt is accused of being an artistic dreamer, without apology, he'll plead guilty. this is going to sound harsh. is this the sonic version of don quixote? >> yeah, that's the story of my life.

i occasionally knock down a windmill or two. >> steven van zandt on james gandolfini. >> you guys were close. >> yeah, i miss him every day. >> at 60minutesovertime.com, sponsored by pfizer. o. same goes for your fall vaccinations. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu this season, but don't forget to get an updated covid-19 shot, too. this holiday season, weathertech offers a variety of amazing gifts for everyone. laser measured floorliners... and cargo liners that fit vehicles perfectly. the cupfone to secure phones in any cupholder. and cupcoffee, when you're on the go. the pet feeding system to feed pets safely. or wow them with a gift card and let them choose. order these american made products the easy way at weathertech.com. and happy holidays.

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joint pain, and fever. make vaccination against covid-19 a part of your health routine. spikevax that body... ...with spikevax by moderna. ♪ >> announcer: the last minute of "60 minutes" is sponsored by united healthcare. there for what matters. as we begin thanksgiving week, we're offering an extra helping of "60 minutes" tonight. coming up, anderson cooper has the story of a slave ship and a difficult and important conversation you'll want to hear among the descendants of both the enslaved and the enslavers. >> my hope is that this can be an example of what reconciliation looks like for the nation as well as start the healing process for a number of descendants. >> everybody has this perception

that, you know, maybe we're angry. >> are you angry at the meahers? >> i'm not angry at the meahers. i'm just angry at the fact that it took so long to speak out. >> we were silent for far too long, and we were distant for far too long. i'm cecilia vega. stick around and we'll be back with africatown. one simple member card that opens doors for what matters. how 'bout using it at the pharmacy? yes — your ucard is all you need. (impressed) huh — that's easy! the all-in-one ucard, only from unitedhealthcare.

pollee allen kupolle caprinxiao "clotilda," a sunken slave ship found in the bottom of an alabama river. the "clotilda" was the last ship known to have brought captured africans to america in 1860. what happened to the 110 men, women, and children onboard is well documented, and their stories have been passed down through generations by their descendants, some of whom still live just a few miles from where the ship was found, in a community called africatown.

for 160 years, this muddy stretch of the mobile river covered up a crime. in july 1860 the "clotilda" was towed here after a 45-day voyage from west africa with 110 enslaved people on board. >> i just imagine myself being on that ship, just listening to the waves and the waters and just not knowing where you were going. >> reporter: joycelyn davis, lorna gail woods and thomas griffin are direct descendants of this african man, oluale. once enslaved his owner changed his name to charlie lewis. this image is from around 1900. pollee allen whose african name was kupollee, seen in this 100-year-old sketch, was the ancestor of jeremy ellis and darron patterson. >> no clothes, eating where they defecated, only allowed out of the cargo hold for one day a week for two months. how many people do we know now that could have survived something like that without losing their mind? >> reporter: there are no

photographs of pat frazier's great-great grandmother, lottie denison, but caprinxia wallace and her mother cassandra have a surprising number of pictures of their ancestor, kossula, whose enslaver called him cudjo lewis. >> growing up, my mom made sure she told me all the stories that her dad told her about cudjo. >> my dad sat us down and they would make us repeat kossula, cudjo lewis. >> reporter: the story of the "clotilda" began when timothy meaher, a wealthy businessman, hired captain foster to smuggle a ship load of captured africans from the kingdom of dahomey, modern day benin, to mobile. meaher divided them up between himself, and foster and several others. captain foster claimed he then turned and sank the "clotilda," but exactly where remained a mstery until 2018.

that's when a local reporter, ben raines, found the "clotilda" in about 20 feet of water next to land still owned by the meaher family. >> this was the key to finding the ship. >> reporter: raines had been searching for seven months, following clues in captain foster's journal, which is in mobile's public library. >> so we're almost over it now. >> yeah. we're coming right up on it. >> reporter: we visited the wreck with maritime archaeologist james delgado in 2020. >> sonar is on. good to drop. >> reporter: the water is so muddy, the only way to see the ship is with a sonar device. you can see it totally clearly. that's the ship. >> yes, that's "clotilda." >> reporter: this is the bow here, just a few feet from the surface, and both sides of the hull. "clotilda" is 86 feet long, but the back of it, the stern, is buried deep in mud. you can see nothing. >> nothing. >> reporter: we dove on the wreck, but there's zero visibility underwater. this wooden plank was all our camera could pick up.

two years later, james delgado and his team, including diver jay haigler, returned to the wreck to properly explore the site. they carefully removed 98 pieces of the "clotilda" for examination. >> this is a very good find. this is off of the stern. >> reporter: including this part of the steering system. most remarkable of all, they found for the first time ever, according to delgado, the intact cargo hold of a slave ship, and it was smaller than they'd previously thought. >> but the only way to get all those people in was to literally put these posts in and lay these platforms, as they called them, a foot and a half apart and literally cram people in. >> reporter: delgado helped us create this animation that shows the post they found still upright in the cargo hold and the wooden platforms where the 110 captives had been forced to lie crowded together, shoulder to shoulder, stacked on top of each other in near total darkness for the 45-day voyage.

>> the british had developed a rule on how to do this. so it was a foot and a half by five feet for a man. a foot and four inches for a woman. and a foot for a child. >> reporter: a child would get one foot of body space? >> and when you use that very bureaucratic, cruel, evil math, you could cram the 110 people in there in horrific conditions. >> reporter: jay haigler had dived on slave ships before, but never inside a cargo hold. >> and once i got down there, there was a calmness that was around. it really kind of washed over me. and then i really felt the presence of the 110 ancestors. i was a different person that came out of that cargo hold than i was when i went in. >> reporter: you really feel that? >> oh, absolutely. absolutely. it was a spiritual experience. >> reporter: some of the ship's

pieces delgado's team retrieved are now on display in a new museum called africatown heritage house, which opened in july just a few miles away from the wreck. ♪ >> reporter: africatown was founded three years after emancipation by 30 of the africans from the "clotilda." it is the only surviving community in america founded by africans, and some of their descendants still call it home. who lives here now? >> family members, cousins. >> reporter: joycelyn davis took us to the street her great-great-great-grandfather charlie lewis lived on. it's still called lewis quarters. so pretty much everyone on this street can trace their lineage back to charlie lewis? >> yes, everyone here is related. >> reporter: in an interview published in 1914, cudjo lewis said when he and the other "clotilda" survivors were freed after five years of enslavement, he asked timothy meaher to help them return to africa, but meaher refused. meaher also tried to prevent them from voting. and some found work in a saw

mill meaher owned. >> i mean they worked for like a dollar a day until they saved up their money to buy land. >> reporter: this rare film from 1928 shows cudjo lewis in his 80s, whether he was one of the "clotilda's" last living survivors. he helped found this church in africatown, the same church many of the "clotilda" descendants still attend today. ♪ after e man pace, it seems so unlikely that a group of freed slaves could pool their resources and build a community. i mean that's an extraordinary thing. >> there's this thing we say about making a way out of no way. >> reporter: mary elliott is a cure rater at the smithsonian in washington, d.c. >> when these folks were forced over here from the continent of africa, they didn't come with empty heads. they came with empty hands. so they found a way to make a

way, and they were resilient. >> reporter: africatown was once a vibe rant community. there were black owned businesses, and by the 1960s, 12,000 people lived here. but those black-owned businesses are gone, an interstate highway was built through the middle of africatown in the early 1990s. and there are only about 800 residents remaining. living in small clusters of homes surrounded by factories and chemical plants. no matter where you go in africatown, you can hear factories and industry and the highway. >> there is this constant buzz. it's a buzz you hear all the time, day and night. and it's a constant reminder of the breakup of this community. >> reporter: since the "clotilda's" discovery, some $10 million in city, state, federal and philanthropic funds have gone into the revitalization of africatown, but the descendants of timothy meaher, the slave owner who bankrolled the "clotilda," refused to meet.

the meaher family still owns about 14% of the land in historic africatown, and their property markers are hard to miss. there's even streets nearby named after timothy meaher. court filings from 2012 indicate the meahers' real estate and timber business is worth an estimated $36 million. when we first visited in 2020, the meahers weren't talking, to us or the "clotilda" descendants. >> i don't think it's something that people want to remember. >> because they'd have to acknowledge that they benefited from it. >> because they benefited. that's it. they benefitted. that's part of their wealth was derived and that on the backs of those people. >> reporter: what would you want to say to them, if they were willing to sit down and have, you know, have a coffee? >> we would first need to acknowledge what was done in the past. and there's an accountability piece that your family, for this many years, five years, owned my

ancestors. and the third piece would be how do we partner together in africatown? >> reporter: this past july, descendants of timothy meaher agreed to a meeting of the "clotilda" descendants. we'll show you that went when we come back. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte™. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent. these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte™. ask your doctor about caplyta find savings and support at caplyta.com.

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♪ ♪ we care a lot ♪ for years, descendants of the enslaved africans brought to alabama on the "clotilda" have been trying to meet with the descendants of timothy meaher, the man responsible for bringing their ancestors here in 1860. last year a new generation took control of the meaher family business and began to explore reconciliation. a few months ago, we witnessed a sit-down between the modern-day meahers and the relatives of the men and women their ancestor enslaved. the meeting took place in a conference room in mobile's history museum this past july. >> i previously thought that this day would never happen, ladies, because people kept

saying, the meahers have kept quiet, you know. we've tried to approach them. they've only spoken through their lawyers. >> reporter: pat frazier was representing the "clotilda" descendants association along with joycelyn davis and its president, jeremy ellis. >> my hope is that this can be an example of what reconciliation looks like as for the nation as well as start the healing process for a number of descendants. >> everybody has this perception that, you know, maybe we're angry. >> reporter: are you angry at the meahers? >> i'm not angry at the meahers. i'm just angry at the fact that it took so long to speak out. >> we were silent for far too long, and we were distant for far too long, and we're very happy to be able to finally break the silence and to narrow the distance. >> reporter: that's meg meaher,

great-great granddaughter of timothy meaher. she's an accountant who oversees the family's business holding and property, along with her sister, helen, an attorney. >> i know there's no words that i can say that adequately address the horrors that your ancestors endured as a direct result of the actions by my ancestor, timothy meaher. you know, we can offer this generation's heartfelt apology, but it's easy to say things. we're going to start doing things. >> reporter: can you talk a little bit about why you were silent or why the family was? >> yeah. our family is -- it's like some other families. we have lots of layers and complexities and, you know, some dysfunctions. we have been in, like, a lawsuit like among family members, and that finally resolved just a year ago. so, like, now it's -- really it's our generation that's been able to, like, step up. >> what does reconciliation look like for you? >> well, i told this to anderson yesterday. i hope he comes back in ten

years and africatown is a thriving place. and that we've been able to play a part in helping that transformation. >> and i think about building relationships and seeing what ways, you know, we can get back. >> reporter: helen grew up a few miles from africatown, but had never been there until last year, when she started volunteering at a food bank. as a first step to make amends, in 2021 helen and meg sold this plot of land in africatown to the city of mobile for $50,000, a fraction of its appraised value. it will be home to community development organizations and a new food bank. meg and helen still own about 14% of the land in historic africatown. >> we have some asks, some specific asks that we would like to see accomplished. >> reporter: you're talking about plots of land? >> we believe that within that historic district of africatown, there are parcels of land that we should have ownership in, a

land trust. >> reporter: a land trust? >> uh-huh. >> reporter: that land would then be leased out for business? >> wouldn't it be great if a company like walmart could partner with descendants and lease out land from descendants. >> there's a trust, and there's land, and people can have services that they don't currently have. today you couldn't get, you know, a loaf of bread without having to drive miles away. the streetlights are so poor. the roads are so bad. the dilapidated housing is so terrible, or maybe there can be educational trust funds that somebody would go to college and not be saddled with student loans. >> i have a daughter, and i believe that she should have the same level of education that the

meaher family experienced. but we believe that the same level of education should be provided to all descendants. a lot of focus, as it should be, is on africatown. but as the president of the organization, i have to be intentional about those other survivors that maybe didn't grow up in africatown, but they still were impacted by this story. >> reporter: so you're talking about 110 people on the "clotilda." >> right. >> reporter: their descendants probably number in the thousands. how is it possible for these two people to make it right for thousands of people? >> we never asked that. there are a number of conspirators who played a role. you have to take it bite by bite. but if you have an honest conversation, at least we know what the parameters are to work within. >> reporter: do you think they bear responsibility for the actions of timothy meaher and

subsequent generations? >> so i feel like they can't be responsible for what their forefathers did. however, i want them to recognize how that behavior benefited them and worked to the disadvantage of us. just like they've had multiple generations of wealth, the original slaves and their descendants haven't. >> reporter: the inability to purchase land -- >> couldn't build on anything. >> reporter: and intergenerational wealth passed down through real estate. >> none of that, none of that. >> reporter: are there parcels of land in africatown that you are financially dependent on, that you're making money from? >> i would have to review that better since i have just taken on this new role. there's still so much that i'm learning. we're still keeping an open mind and working on figuring out next steps. and i'm not shutting a door on anything.

>> reporter: you said you don't hold helen and meg responsible, but you are asking them to pay reparations. >> it's reconciliation. i've never used the word "reparation." >> i'm asking for land -- i'm asking for land that's undeveloped, that's been undeveloped for decades. >> reporter: what is the difference between reconciliation and reparations? >> i think reparations encompasses a lot more. i think it's more than just land. i think that when we talk about reparations, we need to talk about the mental health aspect of things and the mental tragedy that folks have endured. >> reporter: what do you say to somebody who's watching this who's white and thinks, this is scary, that i can be held financially liable for something a great-great-great grand parent did that i didn't even know about or i just learned about? >> our actions can show them that it's something that can be done. and this is what reconciliation looks like for those that have

been impacted through generations, right? >> reporter: not all of the conversation was about land or possible scholarships for descendants' children. jocelyn davis wanted them to remove their property markers in africatown. >> how would you feel if you were going into a neighborhood and you saw the enslaver's name on almost every corner that you pass? you know, it's like a constant -- >> reminder. >> -- reminder. >> reminder. >> i would hate it. >> it's like, hmm, you know. it's like, oh, wow. >> is it a hmm, or are you f-ing kidding me? >> both. it's a little of both. >> we can work to remove those monuments. i know that's a small step, but it's not something you have to see every day. so that's a first step that we can take. i can't change the street signs because that's the city. >> reporter: the descendants also wanted to know about any artifacts that might have

belonged to their ancestors or from the "clotilda" that were kept or hidden away by pass generations of meahers. are there any artifacts that you have? >> we do not have any artifacts that i'm aware of. we've looked really hard. >> i can't believe there aren't family relics. i just want to think that people preserve things of some significance. >> reporter: and that would be important to you? >> absolutely. a lot of people are trying to learn about their ancestors. >> i can tell you we're continuing to look as we go through stuff. >> yeah, we are. >> reporter: one of the few artifacts they found so far is this cane, which belonged to timothy meaher's brother, byrnes, the man who enslaved pat frazier's great-great-grandmother lot tie dennison. is this something you want to see? >> i want to see it. >> this is the cane that belonged to the man who purchased your --

>> my ancestors, exactly. thank you. >> sure. >> reporter: what is it like to touch something like that? >> well, it makes me sad because it just really makes you remember the hardship. >> reporter: i can hear the sadness in your voice. >> yeah, i'm very sad. >> reporter: the meeting lasted about two hours, and though no financial commitments were made, the meahers have begun removing their property markers and are donating more land around the food bank. in addition to the descendants, the meahers say they're consulting with financial planners and other community development organizations in africatown to weigh their next steps. what are your biggest concerns? like, what are the calculations you're making? >> we don't want to generate conflict because we do know there are different organizations. so that's my biggest concern is how do we not cause conflict working with everyone.

>> no, i totally understand. they've come to the table, trying to do the right thing, and they want to be intentional with the decisions that are made. i totally understand that perspective. >> i mean, i think some of it is just, like, red tape. i mean, if we have to do a transfer of property, you just want to, i guess, ensure that everything is being done correctly. this is going to take some time because it's the right thing to do. >> and i agree that it's not easy work. even the ask isn't easy, right? that's not an easy thing to do. >> in your dream, africatown would become a thriving community. >> yes, again. >> reporter: again. do you think these conversations need to be had across the nation? >> yes. >> absolutely. >> make no mistake about it. >> absolutely, absolutely. >> and that's something we fail to do in this country. and there is some misconception on the part of, i think, a lot of people that those are just some greedy ancestors that are

trying to get some handouts. they want some more handouts. >> let me be very clear also. >> no. >> we did not come to the table saying, we want everything. we were very intentional about what those asks were. and so we're just coming to the table reasonably, respectfully, and authentic. ♪ ♪ you don't have to wait until retirement to start enjoying your plans. with pacific life... ...imagine your future with confidence. for more than 150 years... we've kept our promise to financially protect and provide. so, you can look forward to exploring your family's heritage with the ones you love. talk to a financial professional about life insurance and retirement solutions with pacific life. okay george, this one is for the prize? intenso.

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i'm cecilia vega. we'll be back next week with another edition of "60 minutes." happy thanksgiving. ["nose on the grindstone" by tyler childers] ♪ daddy worked like a mule mining pike county coal ♪ ♪ he ----ed up his back he couldn't work anymore ♪ ♪ he said one of these days you'll get out of these hills ♪ ♪ keep your nose on the grindstone ♪ ♪ and out of the pills ♪