welcome back to "face the nation."

we're continuing our conversation now with gary cohn. gary, before the break you were telling us the business world has high expectations for the trump administration. one of the things that donald trump promised to do in his second term was lower the corporate tax rate. so you helped put together the tax plan that's expiring -- or part of it's expiring in 2025. he said at the new york stock exchange this week that he wanted to go down further from 21%. he really wanted to get it back down to 15 and we will be able to do that. will he be able to do that? >> look, margaret, we don't know. look, the whole tax discussion is going to happen over the course of 2025. >> why didn't you do it in 2017? >> in 2017 we didn't have the financial wherewithal to do it. when you go through reconciliation, which is how they will do taxes this time, in 2025, you are given instructions by the budget committee.

the instlukss are basically how much money you can spend or how much revenue you can take in. this time it will be how much money you can spend. we did not have additional money to spend so the lowest we could get the corporate tax rate at that time was the 21%. that's also the reason that the corporate tax part of the tax legislation 2017 expires the end of 2025. to score that piece of legislation, which in the financial requirements we were given by the senate and the house finance committees, we had to end the persona side at the end of 2025. so we do know that taxes will be taken up by this congress in this session. we know that they're going to have to deal with the personal side of the equation because if not the personal side it will revert back to the pre-2017 tax code. that was a very arduous, ugly tax code with much higher rates, a lot more loopholes, a lot more

deductions. i don't think anyone on either side of the aisle wants to go back to the prior tax code. you know if we open up the tax code, even if we're talking about the personal side, the corporate side will come into play. there's always this interesting relationship between personal and corporate side. the vast majority of companies in the united states are small businesses that file on a tax return that allows them to pay the personal rate, but there's a difference between personal rate and the corporate rate. you want to make sure that those relationships don't get too far out of line with each other so people aren't incentive advise to change their corporate structure to become a subchapter s corporation versus a corporation. >> okay. >> so they can take advantage of the tax code. so there's always a lot of time spent there to make sure the personal rate and the corporate rate makes sense in relationship to each other. >> i think you said in the past you don't think the corporate rate should go down further? >> the business community as a

whole, when we do tax reform in 2017, whether you look at the chamber of commerce, business roundtable, any business organizations, they were very supportive of a 21% tax rate. they, in fact, i think would have been happy with anything at 23% or below which put us in line with other oecd countries in the world. >> other developed economies? >> other developed economies. obviously companies will be happier if the tax rate goes lower, but realistically we just need in this country to be competitive with the rest of the world. we do not want corporate taxes to be disadvantaged for u.s. domicile companies. >> the pick for treasury secretary is hedge fund manager scott bassent. you may know him. he says he's going to deliver on the trump tax cut pledges, but that's eliminating taxes on tips, social security, overtime pay. can he actually deliver on any of that? >> look, scott is quite an accomplished individual so the guy -- i know he will put a lot of effort into this. he will have a lot of help with

other people. kevin hassett who is going into my old job at the nec will have an important seat at the table. kevin understands a lot of these policies. there will be a lot of opinions at the table when we get to tax rate. the house and senate will have their opinions. there are members of the house that ran on one item and one item only. they ran on the idea that we should bring back the state and local tax deduction, the s.a.l.t. deduction. there were members that ran on being deficit hawks. there are republicans that ran on thinking that we had built up too much deficit and we need to get our budget under control. we're going to have to find a way -- >> they're not going to like any of these premises. >> i agree with that, but we're going to have to find a way to balance all of these needs and get to a tax plan that makes sense but it allows us to continue to drive our economy, continue to drive the economic growth and continue to drive wages and jobs. >> well, you heard the house speaker say some of this may be done through reconciliation, which implies the senate isn't going to seek a majority vote.

they're going to try to put this through with 51 votes, do it in kind of an arcane way. when is this going to happen? should it happen before they fix the border? >> well, it sounds like from what i'm hearing, look, i don't know, this could change any way. there are other people smarter than i deciding on the strategy of this. the it sounds like there may be two reconciliation bills. it sounds like the first reconciliation bill, which, you're right, allows the senate to do something in this a simple majority. budget related only. you can only reckoncile a budge. it sounds like there might be a first reconciliation bill which is border related where they take back much of the unspent money and use that to close the border. >> then -- >> then use a second reconciliation bill, because there are two budgets out there. >> right. >> use that to go after taxes and fixing taxes, especially the personal side of taxes that ends

in 2025. >> right. that's a big hike to have in the year ahead, gary. we'll be talking to you then. we've got to take a break. >> thank you.

we're joined now by the ukrainian ambassador to the united states. good to have you back with us. >> thank you for having me. >> no western power, as you know, is sending troops to ukraine to help ukrainian forces, but russia's got north korean troops now who are fighting on their side. yesterday president zelenskyy said russia has been using a significant number of north koreans. how are they fighting? >> yes. we are not asking for other troops. ukrainians are still capable of defending our own country. we're asking for the military support. yesterday we have seen those tens of thousands of troops that they were worried about. we have seen hundreds of them on the battlefield already and we are successfully fighting with

them as we are fighting with the russians. i mean, look, we see them now and our great defenders, we're not only able to kill a lot of them but also keep the positions. so it's difficult, of course, to see the reinforcement from this access of evil, but it will not change anything for us. we will continue defending the very long line, whether it's in southern eastern ukraine or whether it's our defensive operation. >> and in the meantime the north korean troops are getting trained in modern warfare and they're learning in ukraine -- i mean, right there. >> absolutely. and we also have to worry about what is it that russia is promising or even delivering to north korea in exchange for this and korean missiles. >> i also raise the manpower issue because it's a problem for ukraine as well. military recruitment is tough right now in ukraine.

there has been pressure on your government by the united states to lower the draft age so that you can boost the number of fighters. this is arguably a bigger issue than the weaponry. is it affecting the ability of ukraine to keep up the fight? >> i wouldn't agree it's a bigger issue than the equipment itself. first of all, we have a number of young people fighting for ukraine and they are volunteering. women are volunteering. ukraine is one of the countries that lifted all restrictions for women, for example, and we have 60,000 of women in the armed forces. with the recruitment, the last changes to the mobilization already allowed us to create new brigades which we are training now. the problem is to have enough equipment to train them on so that we can actually not send to the battlefield like russians do, right, unprepared? north koreans are unprepared. but to send soldiers who can do and deliver on a mission. it's very important for us

because every person matters for ukrainians. of course there are challenges, and we have the plan and we know how to do it because, again, this is our home we are defending. so when it's necessary, all of us are going to be defending our country, but weapons and having more weapons, especially long range, especially something to counter this 3,000 glide bombs every month that russians are sending against us, missiles, both russian and north korean missiles, it's still a question of artillery and weapons and air defense most importantly. and the more we can have, the more efficiently we can defend. >> the biden administration has been releasing more weapons just in the last week alone, but donald trump gave an interview to "time magazine" and he said the united states is escalating by allowing for weapons -- missiles to be shot into russian territory. he specifically focused in on that. he does not like that ukraine is doing it. what does that mean for you on

day one of the trump administration? >> well, let me say -- start by saying thank you to all-american people, really, for standing with us all this time. let me thank president biden and his administration for all the support. let me thank president trump. he is the one who made historic decision to provide us with lethal aid in the first place. >> back in 2017. >> yes. so right now we have to do everything in order to stop russia, and we know it could be stopped. it was recently stopped in syria. we liberated more than 50% that they have taken. we actually kicked them out from the black sea just with our own naval drone capabilities. we can stop them. the more equipment we have, especially including the longer range equipment in order to be able to degrade their attack capabilities faster, the faster they will either come to the table because, again, ukraine

wants peace. nobody wants peace more than us. ukraine was never a problem. we never initiated this conflict and we negotiated at the first sight, remember, 2022 when russians started negotiations. they negotiated the pause as we just heard congressman waltz who absolutely rightfully said, it has to be peace, not a pause. >> he was careful. he didn't give a lot of specifics as to what the trump policy will be, but we do know that viktor orbon was at mar-a-lago and he talks to vladimir putin and he's talking about a christmas pause. do you see a chance for a christmas cease-fire and prisoner exchange in. >> this is very difficult winter. after russia destroyed a lot of our energy infrastructure and after, you know, we are going through this difficult fight, both on the front line but also civilians suffering from the deadly missile attacks.

>> just this past week. >> yes. at the same time, you know, every time russia is talking about some cease-fire, they are lying. they are not able to defend his buddy assad. we see horrible atrocities like we see in ukraine everywhere. it reminded me isolation prison which is still operational. look, you know, if russia wants seriously to stop it, they can stop it at any time. >> ambassador, i have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> we'll be back in a momet.

scenes of jubilation in damascus as thousands of syrians mark the first friday of prayers. our elizabeth palmer has more. >> reporter: i have never seen damascus so filled with joy. bashar al assad, the dictator, had fled to moscow, and just like that, the fear of saying something that might get you arrested was gone. the islamist fighters who had seized power a week ago were

partying, too. in the main suuk, shoppers walked on assad's face. while at the prison where his critics were tortured and killed, crowds poured in to what syrians used to call the slaughterhouse. it's some kind of maybe underground holding cells. this is where political prisoners were disappeared. horrible. dark. damp. smelly. cold. all week families combed the cells for clues that might tell them what happened to their husbands, their fathers, their sons. in a house near damascus we met an american, travis timmerman, who had entered syria illegally and being locked up in an assad jail since may. you got more than you bargained for, didn't you? this. >> well, i'm here. >> reporter: you're alive? >> yeah. >> reporter: he is a lucky man. as soon as the regime fell,

local people set him and the rest of the prisoners free. at the ancient mosque, the fighters leader was welcomed a conquering hero. he's changed his look from the old days when he was affiliated with al qaeda and a master of modern messaging, he posted on x, too, in vieting all syrians to join in rebuilding the country. his inner circle has promised elections in march, but not everyone buys it. rumors are spreading like wildfire that no matter what they say, these men mean to rule like al qaeda 2.0. syrians are afraid, especially the christian and alawite minorities, that when the dust settles they'll find that a new tyranny has simply replaced the old. >> that's elizabeth palmer in damascus. we spoke with the executive

director of the u.n.'s world food program cindy mccain last week and began by asking about the situation in syria and how her organization is getting food to those who need it most. >> well, our deliveries so far have been very smooth, but we need more delivery options open, which is what this was eluding to. more importantly, we have been able to get 70,000 people fed this month so far, but we need more. more importantly, we need the funds to do it. that's where we're lacking. you know, wp never left syria, we've always been in there, but now we need more routes, more ability to get not just more trucks but more people in so that we can help in the best way we can. >> the u.s. still has some sanctions on syria but they do let in u.n. humanitarian aid. there was a call in congress, a bipartisan one this week, for the united states to lift some sanctions. are you experiencing u.s. sanctions getting in your way at this point? >> not really. we've been able to, as you said,

we've been able to move our goods through our food -- our food items, et cetera, through and get it through in a safe and quick manner as well. i don't -- i will never under estimate the process with things that it could infringe us later on. so i'm hoping that things stay calm, that we can move our goods, again, in a safe and secure manner and do it at full scale. if we can't work at scale we can't feed. >> you said you're short on funds. how much do you need? >> oh, worldwide i could use 17 billion right now if you want to know the truth. there's so much -- there's so many countries that have absolutely no access to any funding, no one's paying any attention to it. >> why did you say funding is down? people are just not paying attention? >> yeah. countries are rerouting their funding in different ways. they're choosing to fund things in different manners or not to fund at all.

and i'm asking now. i'm asking on your show worldwide to please consider once again giving to syria because people in syria will starve to death without it. and we've seen the evidence of great hunger there. >> you know, you and i have spoken in the past on this program about the u.s. contributing so generously to the u.n., the largest fund jer, arguably the most important partner to the united nations, and you have encouraged beijing to really kind of step up their game. and you had said there was somewhat of a lack of willingness to be a part of working together as a team worldwide. have you seen any change to that? >> not much. i encourage all countries to get involved, including china. we need help from everybody. the world is on fire right now, and hunger -- hunger is at the forefront of all of this. and most importantly, you know, when people are hungry, this becomes a national security

issue. and so it affects not only the countries that it's affecting but it affects us worldwide and it does affect national security. so it's important that every country worldwide get involved and be involved in this. >> so i want to ask you about sudan. i know you were recently there. it's in the midst of a brutal civil war. the u.s. has accused both sides of ethnic cleansing. can you keep trucks going into sudan to feed people there? >> oh, it's such a complicated situation. we -- right now we have 30 some convoys on the road going into sudan to hit the various places that we need to get to, but we need more. certainly dar 4 has been a big issue, but we have other parts of the country that are just as needy and where famine does exist. as you know, it's been declared there. we need also to be able to come through khartune and make sure we can access from that

direction as well. it's been a slow process, but we have been able to get in. again, food security is national security. don't ever forget that. because if people are insecure from a food -- from a food reality, they're not going to behave well. things -- they start to migrate. wars begin that way. conflict is a part of all of this. >> i'd be remiss not to ask you about what's going on in gaza. jake sullivan, president biden's national security adviser, said this week the u.s. has stood up to prime minister netanyahu to say let's make sure that israel is not responsible for the third famine of the 21st century. are we at famine in gaza? >> we're very close to it. we've seen the effects of it. we've seen what's going on. listen, we're in the month of november. wfp has been able to get two trucks in, that's all. two trucks in the month of november. of course now we're into december. this whole issue of not being able to get in is unseemly.

we need unfettered access. we need a cease-fire, and we need it now. we can't -- we can no longer sit by and just allow these people to starve to death. we need help and we need to make sure we put political pressure on those who need to have political pressure put on them. >> we've seen images of crowds just crushing people amassing at bakeries in gaza. 90% of the population cannot return to their homes. they're displaced. only four bakeries are operational for nearly 2 million people. this is manmade. >> it is manmade. you're absolutely right, it is manmade. and more importantly, the world needs to take a hard look at this and realize that not just -- not just do they need food but we need access and that targeting of humanitarian aid workers is unconscionable. we need to get in and do our job. more importantly in all of this,

make sure that we can feed. children especially are starving to death. the height of malnutrition. the height of hunger within that region is unbelievably horrible, and so we've seen be it firsthand. and i as the leader of the largest humanitarian aid agency in the world, i'm calling for a cease-fire and i want my aid -- my fellow partners within this arena to call for the same thing. >> understood. you used the word targeted. who's targeting your workers? >> well, there's lots of things going on there. there are gangs that are running -- if we're speaking directly about gaza, it's gangs running around. it's the lawlessness. >> director mccain, i know you have a lot of need. 17 billion is the number you're asking for. we wish you good luck feeding the world. >> thank you. thanks for having me. >> we'll be right back.

take an ekg from anywhere, but with 6-times the data. can your smartwatch do that? introducing kardiamobile 6l, the fda-cleared ekg that provides six-times more heart data than any smartwatch. and it detects three of the most common arrhythmias in just 30 seconds, including atrial fibrillation, bradycardia and tachycardia. get kardiamobile 6l for just $109 this holiday season at kardia.com or amazon. (♪♪) at healthmarkets, we know shopping for health insurance isn't easy. that's why we set out to make it simpler. with lots of plan options, easy to review, all in one place. and a network of more than 3,000 helpful licensed insurance agents here to have a real conversation about your insurance needs. for us, it's not about this plan or that plan. it's about finding you the right plan at the right price. simpler, easier,

real solutions for you. visit us at healthmarkets.com today. that's it for us today.

thank you for watching. until next week. for "face the nation," i'm margaret brennan.

♪