tavis: good evening from los angeles. i'm tavis smiley. tonight a conversation with groundbreaking actress pam grier, the star of iconic films "1974's foxy brown." the book is called "foxy: my life in three acts." we're glad you have joined us.

>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] >> you in trouble. tavis: please welcome pam grier back to this program. the talented actress is out now with a new memoir called "foxy: my life in three acts." pam grier, always good to have you on the program. >> yes. i couldn't wait to come back. tavis: i'm glad to have you back. >> since you were my first. tavis: stop. that was off-camera conversation. that was not supposed to make it to the airwaves.

speaking of the book. great, great, great cover. tell me about this photo. >> that photo was a gift. matthew ralston took that photograph. of course grand central publishing, my wonderful edit or, karen thomas, we were trying to come up with a photograph of what would reflect my spirit and show empowerment and vulnerability. and that was the one they wanted and he generously gave us the rights to use it. tavis: there have been a number of books over the years on this program. i was curious about the photo. i was really curious about yours. a great photo with foxy across it. you must have had 10 gazillion photoses to go there. >> not really. >> it is very, very difficult.

plus you would have to pay big. not all of them really encompass where you are today. see? i've had a span of a career for four decades. that's a lot. and as you read this sequences in my life and circumstances, there is a lot. of undercurrent. there is a lot. just out on the surface. there is a lot. and when you look, i think you see a depth and that's what they informed me and that's what they wanted to depict and it says a lot. tavis: to that undercurrent, i'm going to get to that in just a second. >> uh-oh. tavis: to that undercurrent. let me ask a strange question. it came to me going through the book, which is whether or not and it may be forthcoming, whether or not you can now look back at your life with all the

undercurrent and pinpoint a time when you were happeniest, most blissful on a personal -- happiest and most blissful on a personal level. do you have any idea when that was or is it yet to come? >> yes, there was a moment when i was doing my first play. "fool for love". 90 minutes. no intermission and the challenge from roger robinson. i had just seen years ago doing "soldier's play" at the ensemble play. tavis: he won an award last year. i love roger. >> he said pam, you should do it. you have this energy. you have a spectrum of energy and a well, a deep well. and i didn't think i could achieve what i saw on stage with these fine, fine actors and when i saw my first -- when i had my

first performance, i felt it then. "fool for love." i was completely -- this is what i love. this is what it is all about and i was so -- i was content and i was challenged and i was passionate and it has enhanced my passion to this day. tavis: there are some wonderful parts of this book that, i mean, being a fan, i knew some of this stuff or at least i knew the service of some of this -- surface of some of this stuff but really getting to know the backdrop really brought your life to life for me. i knew this but, again, before you became an actress. you were singing. but not just singing. i mean singing for some major people. bobby womack.

>> i had sung background for bobby womack. he said i have a friend,000 needs more background singers. i said great. his name is sylvester stewart. tavis: sylvester stewart! >> i go to sunset and go through the guard and the process and i get up there and there is the background singers of "wond love." the background singers for stevie wonder. i said oh. the guard said you'll be singing with them. i am like oh, my god! i think i'm singing for stevie wonder and i'm not. sylvester stewart. there is that big fro. that big smile. oh, my god!

it is just unbelievable. i was speechless. i was a starving student. here is sly and the family stone. here i am singing background. i got to go in and rip a little with him. he was a genius. tavis: hanging out with stevie's background wonder love. and singing with sly. why did you end up going into the acting thing and not the music thing? >> i wanted to be in film. i wanted to be a film student. possibly be a director or cinematographer. that was my goal. i didn't believe i had the physical beauty that i had seen projected and advertised in theater. tavis: hold on. you didn't think you had that. you had won beauty contests. >> with my -- on back wards?

tavis: that is my story. you might as well tell it now. >> it fit better. what can i tell you. my mother really wanted me to be in possibly a beauty pageant not only if i could win but it would help improve my self-image because of trauma in my childhood and other issues, i felt beauty was a magnet for abuse and i suffered greatly for it and it is one of the reasons why i wrote the book, to share my experiences, to enpower and inspire others. whether we hate to see abusive behavior being passed on from generations to generations when we have access to health. counseling and dr. phil. so a part of that was to help me with my self-esteem.

to be among people. reach out to others. have them embrace me, try to find out about me, who i was and that i'm ok if they compliment me on what they consider is beauty and today, fast forward, i believe that it is not about your physical aspect. it is about your confidence. tavis: that's big fast forward. a huge quantum leap. tell me about how you got through the period of thinking that your beauty was being used against you. how did you get past that? when we get to know you as a movie star and all of your glamour and some movies certain nude scenes, you obviously got past that at some point. how did you get past that? >> i feel that when you're playing another character. >> mm-hmm. >> i'm not pam. tavis: hmm mm. >> i'm split. i'm playing another person.

another psyche. another body, my mind, everything. i was able to separate myself from that in that. i found solace in a way. i was not hiding but i wasn't playing me. but as roger corman, who gave me my first job, i said roger, i can't lose my job. i don't know how to be an actor and all of these women out here waiting to come in for this role are stunning and beautiful. no makeup. afro. and so he had given me a book called the the act of preparing. i read it. approached it. when you are an actor, you bring a tool in your craft but you are not that person. and i was able to be distant by

portraying another person. another character, if you will. and i found myself not stuttering. not having anxiety attacks when i was portraying another soul, another being. i found comfort in that. i think many actors do playing someone other than theltses. -- themselves. so that segued into more roles. eventually i would go back and be a director. i was fascinated with the lenses and camera. not realizing i had that beauty. they were responding to my body. there was the women's movement. the sexual revolution. woodstock, body painting and short skirts. the whole thing. you were wrapped up in that. i could see that i'm not

experienced but they want me for my body. so how do i use that as commodity to make money, maintain respect, and move forward, if at all. tavis: you said a couple of things i want to go back and pick up on. >> oh, good. tavis: one of them is this. one of them is recently on this program, we had the iconic comedian carol burnett. she has a new minimum worry out as well. she said to me -- a new memoir out as well. she said she does not believe that a variety show like "the carol burnett show" back in the day could get off the ground today. she said she was so glad that she came along in that time to do what she did. she could continue to that now i ask you, to your point now, whether or not you think pam grier would be the pam grier that we though pam grier as if you had been situated in a different time if you hasn't

been in that era, the blacksploitation and the afros. how much of that has to do with the era that you came up in? >> the timing was critical. the women's movement. loving the body. equal to the prowess of the male posturing and female posturing. there were quite a few films done before i had become very prominent in the film industry that have the same formula but were done by black males. pitches and hos. -- pimps and hos. it wasn't given that title or stigma or monokerr until i did it. i was a woman the time, you

know, women were in the kitchen. they were not seen in television and films doing martial arts, handling guns, standing up to men, you know, running, fighting, getting out of situations, using their with its. today, i think what i did then, evolved into today. where women are not depicted as victims. they are leaders. they are heroines. the victor. the timing was perfect for me then. today i would be one of many and i would have to work at being unique and better to stand out. tavis: you were one of the first major black stars to do certain nude scenes as you talk about in the book. how did you know when it was appropriate versus gratuitous?

>> i just knew from the writing. you could tell. if the scene needed empathy. if it needed someone to not be victimized, then you're going -- you're going to strugglele with the image. it is going to contradict what you're trying to say. to see a woman being so victimized and brutalized made people feel more for her. if i approached it in that way that yes, she is seriously being brutalized and it would take away from people oh, wow. that's a breast. men hasn't seen breasts before? a breast? a nipple? let's see what happens if it is your daughter or your sister or your mother. and give them layers and textures. not just a superficial resolution that no one would remember.

and we can have this dialogue about it. men felt entitled to be very brutal to women and i wanted to show that in the film. i did not want to continue sweeping it under the rug. because it was a part of my own personal history. not once, but twice. tavis: to your point now, how difficult, on the one hand or on the other hand, perhaps therapeutic for you to write openly about being raped not once be twice. >> and an attempt on the third. i drank a lot. i needed to share that. so that my audience who recollects have been a lifeline to me, as many of my peers, directors, casting directors, people who get to know where my strength came from.

i just didn't wake up and all of a sudden it is there. i had to work for it and i see that behavior in families and relationships, abusive behaviors as being passed on from generation to generation until this day. let's stop being so hurtful. let's start working towards wellness. a healing in our community. a healing in relationships. so male and female can finally sit down and understand that -- that young boy or young girl behavior exhibited by their parents that was negative and abusive. they are going to pass it on. you see it every day now. the bullies at school. where do they get that behavior? young women are committing suicide over bullying by male and female. i experienced so much personally and how difficult it was. i was lucky that i don't have

tremendous scar tissue from this. i work on it err day. and one of my -- every day. and one of my encounters rendered me to stutter and a horse all through my life. horses have helped me regain my composure and confidence. tavis: why horses? >> their possibility in. their strength. being so -- they listen. they don't judge. and they just -- when you partnership with them, it just calmed me down. as a matter of fact, my stuttering didn't go away. it can return. i have a mechanism that i can control but when i'm in a fearful -- where i'm fearful, i'm frightened, something is bothering me, i will begin to stutter again. i mean, it can happen. and with horses, my solitude with them, riding them, they are so powerful.

you can you're ok. we're not going to hurt you. tavis: here is what has been fascinating for me watching you over the years and studying your work. i'm quoting somebody and i'll get to it in a second. you are a fine butt-kicking sister on screen and you are just a country hick. >> and urban. i have the best of both worlds. i'm part of the black west. my grandma carried a gun in her apron forever. that's how i was able to handle firearms with confidence. i had hunting rifles as a little girl. my grandfather said i want all the girls to know how the bring the boat in to survive and how to fish and pitch a tent and go hunting. i may not have a -- like a

[laughter] >> i have a shotgun. tavis: you have dated -- >> from guns to dating. tavis: how is that for a segue? >> great, coming from you. tavis: my time is running. i got to get these two things out. there are two guys in particular both of whom i love. two guys you dated. there are interesting stories. let me take them in this record. kareem abdul jabar. he wanted to marry you at one point. the issue of converting -- he changed his name. he wants you to convert. i literally was just online yesterday reading an interesting article about a number of persons in my business in the world of journalism who had been

married and changed or converted to consummate the marriage. john king and campbell brown, shcon verted. -- converted. you had an issue with the converting thing? why? >> well, islam is a 14th century legacy. of a dogma that is not as fair to women from our western perspective. from their perspective, it's fine. we don't need education. the man takes care of them. there are things about becoming a muslim woman. today we're immersed in learning about that culture. i felt -- there could be no promises. what if i didn't have children and i'm going to have to approve the second wife. i'm going to have to get an

education if we divorce. i really believe in that independence which is a part of my being in the women's movement. that was my dilemma and i loved him dearly. today we are best friends. he is a survivor as i am, a cancer survivor. he didn't give me enough time to embrace it and maybe if he had i may have. tavis: you might have married kareem adbul-jabar. >> i may have but there were questions he couldn't answer. tavis: he had just converted himself. >> i think he had been familiar maybe two years. and then the other person. tavis: take a guess who the other person is. take one wild guess. >> richard prior. tavis: ding, ding, ding. i think i can say this with certainty. i have not talked to one comedian in all of my career on tv or radio black or white who

has not said to me pryor was the king. he was the absolute king. >> i had him in a bathrobe one morning. he didn't a horse. i said we're going to put jinger in the back of my jaguar. he pushed and i pulled her through and we went down the 405 with the jag bouncing and creating chaos. we were about to be arrested. the news at 11:00 helicopters. and the brother in the bathrobe is richard pryor and the driver is foxy brown. [laughter] and it also for me, i realize -- [laughter] keep on. you crazy. that's how he was laughing.

when we got back, he was laughing history erically. tavis: how does it feel to make richard pryor laugh like that? >> i realized i wasn't materialistic. we totaled the car but saved a life. that has basically been my life. tavis: how can you not end on that note. wow. the new book from pam grier, is appropriately called "foxy: my life in three acts". i have just scratched the surface on a whole bunch of wonderful stories. >> we'll have a part two. there is a part two coming. i can see it in your eyes. by the way, what happens when -- what happened with your -- when you kissed richard pryor. look at you blushing. tavis: as long as you're pam grier there is going to be a

part two, part three. you come back on this show any time you want. >> we got to do a part two. there are some really big issues i think you will just love. tavis: i enjoyed the reading. that's our show for tonight. access me through our pod cast at pbs.org. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley on pbs.org.

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