>> charlie: welcome to our program. tonight a charlie rose special edition in the episode of the brain series we look at creativity. >> today we go to the highest human accomplishment t issue of creativity to see if we can get iight and as youe indicated we have two extraordinary gifted artists, spectacular coributors. different forms of art, sculptor and painter and they're going to help us explore the issue. >> charlie: the twelve-episode brnerie is about the mos exting scientific journey of our time. understanding the brain. the says is made possibleby a and by theigh sims

undation to advance in mathmatics. fundg buz funding was provided by the following: additional funding provided by: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose.

chaie: we expre the wonders of the hun bin and we've been fascinated by creatity for years and during the middle agers philosophers separated artistic creivit and it became a unique skill thatnly certain people and we now ow that creative talent not only reserd for the spial w, instead it is crucl part of every profession from acting to engineering. tonight we'l explore the sources exploration we can all find within ourselves. we'll arn about theloiogical basis of creativity. like every other aspect of human experience it originates in the brain and also look at the connection between creativity and ment illness.

to help us understand the creativity proce we turn to two of the most talented artists working today. richard serra. he is a sculptor best known for working with metal and his work brks ay fr the tditional definition of sculptor and places an emphasis experiee of the viewer and chuck close. his work is all thmore remarkable considering he suffers om a rare disease that makes him unable to recognize faces. also joini meis a wor renown neuroscieist olive sacks a his latestooks call "th minds eye"and succeeded despite the ability to recognize faces called fac bliness. and ann temk. she share with us several

works from mr. serra an close to help us under their unique giftas artists a onc again my cost is dr.ric kael. he's a nobel laureate and i'm pleased to he him here as we talk about the remarkable function of the human brain, the capacity to be creative where does it come from? >> it comes from the brain. the brain has enmous creative abilities and we seen it in art. it's evident in many aspectof hun acvitynd we'll have a chance to explore this with chuck close and richard serra whare spectacular example of creativity in art. and thiis an interesting turng point in our series.

we tked aboutow differe mental procees comeromhe brain and thenegan to ask the question to what degree can one brid between brian science and other bods of knowledge. in the last program took economics as an examplend discussed decisi making and saw w sights into the biology of decision making can lighten ounderstandi of w we make economic decisions. that was the simplt ce because we know a lot about decision making and now going to thother si of the mountain. e most complex activity to see what insight we can get and one of t amazing tngs as speak about richard serra and chuck close is they themselves do not use t term creativity for their own work. they see themselves as problem solvers and see themselves as scientists do and develop techniques for approaching thin and as theyre reach one

impasse or another they try to solve them. cluck close, as you incate works on a much smaller scale than richard sea. >> crlie: everody rks smaller scales than richard serra. >> he focusesin on details. look aosaic and richard serra workon enormous scales with steel and eclipses and toue where you walklong them a beeen themandalso concerned inhe behoers respon how oplemotionallyespond to the fact they're walking io the unown. if you now askoursf howid th devop tir cativ process, you see them devop it iny erve different ways. my guess is richard serra could have done other thin tha g inasculptor.

he a very good painter and worked with other materials and finally made these wonderful gigantic scale sculptors. chuck close is different. he's dyslexic, as you indiced, anfelt there were many things he wouldn't do. the one thing he could do very well is to draw. and he particularly became interested in drawing and painting faces. this is extremely interesting because he is face blind. he is probably the only artist in the historyofwestern a wh pats poraits without being able to recognize individual faces. and how does the do it? he takes a picture and flattens it out which is easier to dl with and oliver sacks wil exain at to usand the pixelates it and makes small

squares ouof it becaehe can al with small forms easier thanarge forms and the puts it all together. th take twodifferent approaches to the arts and ann pemkin is goingo talk about it and oliver sacks will tk about the neurlogical derpittings. we learn a lotfrom people who have compromised to their cognitive function and we learn a lot from people like chuck close. in fact, it turns out that people with dyslexia arecanbe que creative. there's an enrichment of creativity among people who have dyslexic. and from dyslexia we get an i insight in the part othe

brai theeft hemisphere is deals with oerly ide of ideas and the right more associed with fantasy and musicality and they had an idea the two hemisphere of the brain, although they're symmetril and thought th inhitted one anher. so if you have a compromise like you do with dyexia you free up creative element of the rht hemisphere. and edea oseeo pple with dyslia my be more creative is they free up areas in the right hemisphere. and two young investigators taking different approaches found if you solve a problem with be an insight an eureka

phenomenon the right side lights up and the right side is important in creativity and we'll see this as we discuss it more with oliver sacks. >> charlie: creatity i not mply limited to artists. to can be athletes, sciensts, business people -- >> as you pointed out the coach of the duke basketball team and you ask him how dyou bringut creativity in the players. there's creativity in every aspect of lif but ma people dotave the trinsic cape capability. >> charlie: the brain does so much me than what is imagined which is why 's on e frontier of ience. i didn't uerstand until we

gan to talk about how the brain wa central to ey centl to walk,central t a whole range of hume i human emod now talk about the ability to be creativeo think new ideas. >> the brain is a creativity machine. we spoke in an early program how the information coming through the eyes through the retinas are incomplete for me to get a complete picture of charlie rose. i see the outlines of your face and i add additional features as a result of my exposure and looking at ces. this is what the brain recreates the outside world. it an azing ta. >> charlie: we have had on is program people who have living with bin disse or brain disorder and now we go to people who are noted for creativity as

explore th them this remarkable thing that our brain does, the abily to create. >> and help understand chuck an richard in terms of creativity. give us that sort of historians perspecte. >> though their work is so different, one from the other, theye both product of a similar enronmt in their formative years in artis. riard borin 40 and richard '39. ey're both becomin artists in their tes an early twenties when abstract expressionism is the time and a philosophy of making heroic art. for them both of them atale together, by the way, in the early 1960s, there was an absolute reactn against that

as much as you were wanting and part way to emulate the majesty and grandeur of jackson pollack there s a try to get away from that. charlie: is there a reasoning for a burst of creativity at certain ples at certaintimes. >> i thkoth ofhem can speak to that very much there's no question the mythof the isolated genius in t studio is quite inaccurate or incomplete because i thinkhe generation o tse two and ny others whether you're talking about in fact the abstract expressionists or the frch impressionists or florence in the italian renaissance, it' the togetherness thas such an important factor it's the rivalr with you your colleaguesnd the desire to supporwith each other and ideas from seeing what there doing and talkin >> charliecreativi needs

what >> for people makingand doing, when you're actually makg and doing something you don'think i'm creating i don't think oh, now i'm creating. i think certain aspects of what i would like to find out about my own experience inoing and makinglead to developed certain process has it will allow me to have a certain feedback that will allow know continue. when i first started inew yk just wro down a lt of verbs and decided i would enact the verbs in relatio t material a place and sometimes time i would taksimple things and eith rollit out or lift a ece of rubber and call it to tie, to dapple, twist or whatever and by ung a

trsitive verb structure would then all me to proceed in the way i didt have to deal with the specifics of history. it would allow me toave anown intrinsic logic and the residue of the activity. doesn't mean that all activities in the reduere going to create something that is or satisfying in terms of an aesthetic experience but now and then you would have a where you would go, uh-huh, i've done this and it satisfies certain parameters of things i can relate to things that have been done before and the early work as you taking a piece of rubber about four feet wide and eight feet long and grabbing on an edge and lifting it up and it

was called to ift. once stood tt up realized i could accept the toppological continuousness and the immediate cuure foreealtith the hierary of the object and weren't involved in th process of the materls. i was more intent on my tentions a not sipt and how i could interreact with material and what the residue woulbe iterms of anyone looking at it being able to reconstruct what had been done. whetheor n that was satisfyin tiying satisfying for other people, i didn't mind.

i sorking with other painters and sculptors, filmmakers, musicians that would lp me and there was a dialog between us involved in process, time, movement, place, that there was an interconntedness abt th language and not one out doing the other because we were developed in similar nguage which hadt hit the seums. we were doi t work with each other. >> charlie: does this resonate with you, chuck. >> i rember being in richard's studio when he said look at this d we're li oh,wow. th is really an amazingthing. think in terms of w we ended up doing what we're doing, there's' comn misunderstanding

about ho generations o tists ve way from otherpeop's work and a belve we're reacting and bankrupt of somethinand deid of anything and make somhing else. we loved those people so much and thought we'd be dmed to be llowers of if we continued to make work that lood like everyo else. >> our generation really wanted create something that was not familiar and i think to make somethg th is unfamiar i actually probably to make something newnd to create something. to make something familiar is to deal with fact has it have come before. in watching the segments of these ograms -- i didn't watch the last few but i was struck -- the passion of scientists trying

to deal with something in relation to the given history of facts and offering somethingne is probly fairly nsistent with how aot of artists work. >> eric, this is what strk me. there must be a common set of ageshere by peoe solve problems and other peopl -- >> think problem solving is not the issu i think that's a proem crtion. >> what's the interesti prlem. >> what we doe was try and find a way t backurselves in our own individual corner and ask questions of ourselves that no onelse's answers would fit and then the search was on. but again it was a choice not to do something. reiner was important me. he made the choice not to do

something a positive ecisn. no more of this. we're not going to do that any more. i thought oh, my god, if i want to move not necessarily progress but move from where am cab construct a series of self-imposed limitations and if i'm going to make something then i'm goi to say, i'm going to purge my work o virtuoso brushmanship and limit myself to one color, just black point thinned down on a white ka canvas. my hand wants to ma art shapes so i wl work from photogrhs so they'll be those shaped and plagd with indecisioand int it in and scrape it off and onlyoing toork with one lor so that i'm forced tomake decisions early and live with it. purge theork of everythin

el. >>ven i materials of peonal charactezati they look more like a photo on a passport or -- no posing. >>t's interesting since you have difficulty on recognizing faces how did you focus in on be a portrait artist. >> besides face blindless i was severely learned disabled and couldn't add or subtract or multiply or divide. >> crlie dyslexia. >> well in the ely 40s you didn't know that you were just dumb and lazy. what hapnedas i d to find a way to distinguish myself from my colleagues. i was no good at a lot of other

things, virtually everything. it wasn't that i cared more. i just -- wasn't more talented i had all my eggs in that basket and if this doesn't work out -- >> why faces? >> well,i'm really glad he painted appl but i don't want too that and i a ince i face blind i wan to commit images to memory and richard a a sculptor -- i couldn't a sculptor. i'm flat. when i tried i only did it on one side. if i look at you and you move your head half an inch it's a new head i've never seen before but if we take the photograph and flatten it out iow afft

the translation from one flat medium to another. >> charlie: hait become more and more true for yo >>his gentleme is also face blind and also fanstically creative. do you thinkour fac blindless contributes to your creativity, oliver? >> well it mak it necessar for me to obser voice and poste and things more. >> le alinician in a way. >> perhapsso. >> charlie: when does the creativity come from for you? >> nd. i think not perha need to commicate in th natniel wthoe and his twice-told tales said that and whether it

is faces or music or sign one wants an exchange. >> onehingboth artists work to a really interesting extent to me thinking about how different they are is the priority on the viewer's experience and i think chuck's paintings if we can look at the portrait there is obviously a backnd forth in these pictures beeen the abstract marks and painting act and the presentation of somebody. neither onishe whole experience. part ofthe experience is the abstract circles and squares and funny apes that you see in the detail and then par of itis --

oh, he's this person. for chuck making iand for the viewer looking at that painng, one isadeto become aware of one's own perception and ne's own use of one's perceion because yohave to look at this painting up close to see t free abraction of the brush work, of the shapes that are made, the color form a then you step back to see oh, there it is. and the process that you went through in making it is so embedded in the painting that as the viewer you are almost made rreate it. >> all the evidence of its own making is is in the work itsf. the fact there incremental units were made in incremental unitses is also driven by my learning disability.

i didn't knohow wasoingo ma a head orose,it's too overwhelming. makeme too anxisut if i breait down into a lot little desions. this is a coping mechanis i usedll the way throu school in everything i di takeomething overwhelming and xiety provokingnd make it into little noto sca desionand have it b a positive experiee because every time i completed a square i didn't haveo wa untilhe end to get pasure. i could solve one little problem at a timeand the pleasure came withach one of those. and this is a very reassuring. >> each one is slightly different. i mean the number of decisions that are involved and you described that you pain stang worked at each of them to make sure the colors and forms matched is amazing. >> the interesting thing about

the pating is i could he done it with a diagonal grid or horintal grid. they would have looked the same reduced but i decided i wanted do a horizon vertical grid so your eye would splash down the shapes like a ter fall d though the nose was a different experience. i think it's very rare for a painter or slptor to be as explicit about that interest in the viewer's eerience. but i mean, richard, for you to image, it's the opposite, you didn't get step by step gratification at all and to go from an ideain your headto what it is when thes tngs are mplete that will makethe

vier'sxperience be what it , you're envisioning it to be can you at all describe that? >> went from conical shapes that were inverted to then dealing with torque shapes and it became a series of torqued eclips and passage ways where the viewer's experiencing a space he's implicated in that is some what staling in that they have no previsnformation that wld allow th to understand the complexity of they curve leaning toward you in a final tenity and gave me an opening into a language. >> one genally thinks of the

observer's participation in the art as a modatel stionary experice and thiis aew sponse. this is a longk you're tang throughome of these. the steel is just aessel thallowsne to understand one's physical relation to the space in the way the room is round we know it' cenred with the table. it was rectal linear table we'd know each other response differently. those things have interested me since i s a kid walking one way on t beach and backward the other way confounded me and those simple things being in a telephone booth as different from a football stadium i could never get back together in my head. >> at one point i wasuildg a

work for jaspe jos in his studi studio andplasng led and he asked me to ild a for him and i thought i'll shove this in the corner and when i put it inhe corner i rlized that oh,he corner is holding the sheet of led up and i thought i wder- so went on a me the jasr johns and immediately there got me out of the stuo. i went and asked for arigo got a plate, ten by twenty feet long and mad the who volume ofhe room an installatio and made the place as interesting as th metal and there wasn't any welding or nothing. the archicture was holding in place butit's in the proces

of working that ideas lead to other ideas. the work isn't scripted or confined only to its notion of make but in the process of revealing itself to me is when learned what is possible they hadn't foreseen in what i projected. on dsn't wan to become a slave to one's own precedence and the way to get around that is to constantly stay aware and ask questions about what it is i'm looking at and what it is i dot unrstand and often times when pieces arecoming together, you see things you could not have imagid and they pus yo in dferent diction. >> charl: same r you, joe. >> very important. i've said for a long time inspiration is for amateurs. the rest of us just show and go to wk. becaeverying growsut

work. you do something and that kic op a door and you say do i want to gohrou and you g yes, we'll ride through. everytng ces om that kind of approach -- you don't want to sit around and wait for the clouds to pa and be struck in the head with a bolt of lightening because it may never happen. >> charlie: you don't get up in the morning and say i have to be creative. >> it's not a word we use. >> charlie: you don't even use the word. >> and we don't use inspiration and terms likethat. >> charlie: is only happens when you do what? >> sometimes you put yourself in a position to whe youe me likely t bump into something. >> charlie: the creativity process you engage in, whaver rd you use, making art, you only take it halfway then the person whoecieves it takest e restf thw. >> dechamps said that the artist

only has50% of resnsibility. >>harlie: i never introduced deschamps. >> and we are in a business of sual communication. >> i think this is a very important point caus it also points out that creatity insit is not jus the artis t thperson whoresponses to the art is undergoing creativit creavity process. >> charlie: and the process for u bemes when the pele are inside of the sculptor. >> our genation was very volved in the matial aspect and one' spono th material aspects aone could produce aertain effect to an activity witthe physical aspects. i'm not sure as media comes in and people are being immersed in the spectacular whether those

notions of materiality still hold. ann maybe able to speak to it because she's more abreast of what kids in their 20s and 30s are doing than i ambut it seems the emphasis on understanding the lodge material and the manifestation of material in relation to form and basically what i try to do is invent form that hasn'been predicated on past forms. that's what sculptors have always done. it seems to almost be the mandate but i'm not su if younger nerations care about -- those criteria or those notis in the waythat seem to be what my task had to be. >> what d we know about the biology of creativity. >>ot too muc it cerinly entai the lifting of vario i various various iinh

the left side of the brain gets damaged as with diseases or stroke you may have a relief of perceptual powers. >> do you think there's an area of damage i both our brains that can be pointed to? >> yes. not so much but damage bu areas of under development like people o ha a stroke and lose facial recognition. >> there's a fairly large representation in the brain of faces.

there are six or seven what are called face patchs. you record from them you see 90% of the cells respond to faces and it i-- y know better than i do and tre are different kinds of face blindnesses. the are face blindness where you don'recognize aface or you recognize a faceut you can't identify as a specific person. the areas at e involved at have been cogned. the areason't respondif y st show two dots for an eye and a nose in between. it has to be surrounded by a circle so you get this sort of feeling of an actual face being there and as in caricature the more you exaggerate the face the more dramatic the cell's response. if you push the eyes apart the cells are more effective.

>> charlie: suppose there will be someo who you'd neveseen fore come into your field of vision, what would you see? >> i would see the buthe next day i wonr recognize them? >> charlie: you would not recognize them the next day. >> identity association with the face. >> you hav see i or a over. >> what's intereing about richard's brain is he's very space conscious and there's an area of the brain that's volved in space and it's involved in mory. you look at london tax drivers unlike new york tax drivers kno their way aund the wn they ha to tak tests then se of th part ofhe ain affect that part ofhe brain. if y ask aaxi dver going from e pce to another that naefrt brain lights up. >> i don't recognize faces but i have an incredible facility in finding where i'm going large by

because i can't remember the address. i have to know how to get there using other indicators and i feel like i'm floating over the world. i see the entire world in plan and i know i'm going to do go here for a while and turn left and then turn right and going get where i'm going. i can draw u a floorplan of virtually every room i've been in my life from the time i was four ofive yea old and that -- i think nature does -- i would be totally sts olir often; not trying to find where he's goi. this ability seems to have been developed to mitigate for my ability to remember an address or anything like that. >> charlie: let me ask you this because we touched on this earlie righbrain, left brain. what's the evidenchat if there is somethi wng wi

right or left brain it enhances the ability of the other? >> um, perhaps some of the clrest evidence or suggestn is theaccountsf diseas or dage to onehemispre. >> charlie: so iyou' vision is impaired -- in therontal temple part of the temple lobe is aed in the left hemisphere and there tends to be some release of activities in the right hemisphere. >> 40-yeaold men who did little painting all of a sudden has an outburst of painting. >> or musicality. and another interesting thing, two young investors using different approaches to discover the eureka phenomenon. i can give you a problem to solve in one way going through the alternatives and immediately seeing the answer. if you see the ansr

immediatel immediatel the rht templ lights up. we're binning to get insight into some aspects of creativity -- it's not going cover all of it, seems to be -- including the ght hisphere. >> charliebeinan aist and scientistsoth is there different in scientific creativity and what we might call artistic creivity for lack of a betterrd. >> it'siffilt to argu a grt ysicis has a chapter in his auto biography has a book called mozart and quantum

mechanics. for me naative, which is media combines them all the while or i hope it does. >> i think the problem that chuck and i may have with the word creativity is seen from t outsideit seems look a very exalted term and peopl attribut attribute various status symbo and from the inside it's unending question mark if not a paranoia and sublimbation. th's an intesting point i'd like to bring up. how does one account in ience or brain science forthe

acty of sublimationecau it's certainlypparent to me and i just gave a talk on louise bourgeois. does sublimation play a role in the synapses in the brain. >> i think there may be an interesting historical example. he herman lville w higy talented but not particularly original and something happened around 1850, he fell in love and in fact he fel in love with nathaniel hawthorne and it was not reciprocated and therefore

he di't have a normaloutlet and it was in this state of passion and restraint thatoby ck emerged work genius from the fst century. >> charlie: so the lesson we can thank natniel hawthne for moby dick. >> andhere was areat article abouthat. >> it's a nice sry but i wld not genelize. >> charlie: this is teresting. >> i know many scientist and many artists who have a fanttically rich sexual life and it enhances their productivity. there are a thousand ways to be creative and there is a similarity between artist and scientists which emerge as defining the problem. i think in the scientistic arena

ndinthe probleis the most interesting aspect. it has a future to it. >> it makes me think of an artive of a german artist and his asrtiowas everyone's an artist and a lotf what tse men have been saying is, yes, theirprocesses can b tend a w a scientists work, to the way a bker wor or bak wos --here's a certa amountf -- >> creativity inll of us. >> everybody. and the kinds of normalways in which ey go from day toay and year to work and their work can be shared by people who are doin other things an yet-- that's an indication of the arst as the worker. >> charl: and ihink that's a very good point. >>nd yet u're richardserra. you are chuck cse. oliver sacks. eric ndel. there is some how the ultimate sterof wh is th

distinction with the people of those achievements and great to think of everyone as an artist. >> charlie: richard, what's the difference between everybody has the ability to engage of pressi and asking queions and a richard serra at at the end of theroad there's something extraordinary people pay homage to. >> it has to do with internal motivation why you're driven. i was in alysis for ten years and can't answer that. i can't answer why i creat fo. one drive for medepends on the fact that i feel like i cannot appropriate experience or me t tms with it cometely

until it's written into lanage so i haveowrit how do inowhat i tnk less i ad wt i write. >> charlie: so what's the take awayn creativity her >> the takeaway is - for me, the's a lot wean know by circumstce, behavior, psychology and so on. way way more. we c't know. can't understand. >> charlie: chuck, what's the takeaway? >> i've known richard for a long time and have never seen him more excited than when he's explaining an idea. i've been with you when you've taken some led and rolled it up and oved it in the sand and how it bisects the shape and yo light up in a way and you're desire to share -- artists are

ve geners pele. we're alsoarcissistic and self-involved and there's a desire to share and a bit of the chind all of us saying look at me. i am her i amomebody. let me take youon avoya. i'm gog showou sething. i'm goingo take you some where. i'll make an experience for you and i hope you eoy it. >> charlie: i'll ask a dfere question. oliver, what is it youost want to understand as a scientind as a pson who engages in narrative fo about the act of creating a creativity? i want to undersnd howhe new can me io being.

and this -- i want to give a concrete example and it was said earlier about immitation being bad. i think it's essential preliminary to achievemen for example, with a poet like alexander poe. his first puishe poe wer called immitations of english poets and he is first concerned to get the techniqueorto velop the language as you said, richard, and only when it's developed he then infu it with hi -- infuses it with something new. it is i think the spontaneous sponneity and velty.

>>hen we re at yale - >> charl: you andrichard? >> yes. we unabashedly woed tough other people work. you could ways tell who richard was into because all the pages were stuck together with paint and he would work through satin and everybody and we knew the were doing that as an exercise. we wernot appropriating. i think what oliver's saying is true. you get your chops by disting other people's creativity and it will put you in position where once you leave itlone you'll be able to find sothin more personal. >> if you can leave it alone. you may be stuck in immitation and virtuousity your whole life say with someone like volcom it

soded ke mendn they were mixed together and suddenly when he's 40 yrs old he's done something he's never done before in particular a minant seventh ich is the revoluon. itounds tiny butit was unprecedent and owned the door to music which i hate but was orinal and powerful. >> in addition aving ide and selectina pblemou have to have competence and one way to develop competence is learning the task. and see how other people solved the problem. >> chuck has a great comment about how you made more dekung than dekung. >> i said it's nice to mad mor

dekungs than i have. >> but it's not ju newness but eatness because it contains what came before is not going to achieve that stature. >> and thesystems and limitations free up intuition. when i was free to do anything i wanted to do i did the same thinover and ov. once i construed a situaon in which i couldn't do certain things i fnd that those litatis rather tn cotrucng me and limiting what i could don the contrary opened things upand iwasar more iuitive than i ever had beenitho the imitions. >> charlie: i've got to clo it. go ahead and makeour point. >> one is weealize we know veryittle about creatitynd it should inspire people look into this. d number two the two of you

gi a remaable example we've seen in other contexts that's the social determinance of creativity. you were a wonderful generation of students and had a faculty that permitted this and to think the environment so much encouraged your creativity, two outstanding artist to come out of one class. at's azing that there will is a social determinance th encouraged the creativity. >> it was the ya aosphere u haveo also ress was repeated up downtown new york at the end the 60s. >> charlie: in soho. >> yes, where they all ended up and worked together. >> charlie: i'll give the last word to you. >> i think what i'm interted in is consciousness and how the brain acally allow people to beco more conscus. st what- how does one

undetand others in relation t one'self? where is it, wt triers that cociouess the other >> we had a whole progm on th thebiology of empathy. how i hav an iaf where you're at d what your aspirations are i a different personhan myself and beginnin to unrstandow i fctio and the two issues you brought up which is creativity and consciousness we're far from understanding that but hopefully we want it get something for the younger people to and feel my job in neurcience it to give job opportunities for the neuroscientists. >> charlie: on that note, thank you ve much. chuck close, thank you, oliver sas, columa university neurologists.

i should note you're wear the cap not because youwant t prome anhing but seld ur sensitive eyes from the bright tellvision lit. we're thrled to have you with or without a cap. it's a been a jouey i have learned as much on any series and ened us up to enormous possibilities and ihink eric and i could sit here and doen parts on creavity just t questions ha raised at this table this evening showou the extrrdinary thinge've been lkinabou whi is that will as we dersnd theomplity of the brain a little bit it opens up and shows ushe possibities of unrstaing so much me and uerstding o we are and dersnding whe what w thought of in a sense didn't quite understand about behavior and how there was a connection to biology. and eric has helped us

understand that and he is my great friend and been the guiding hand and the guidi light and the guiding mind on this project. >> it's been a shared experience if i may interrupt you. >> charlie: this is twelve. we wl do more. i am thankful to you this evening and thankful to you all.