>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight we begin with the film people are talking about, it is "the fighter" directed by david o. russell starring christian bale and mark wahlberg who also produced it. >> you had a hard enough time being you when you had your chance and that's why you're in here. >> rose: and we continue with the movie "blue valentine" which stars ryan gosling and michelle williams and is directed by derek cianfrance. >> no, i mean, like, hi, bye, how are you? i'm fine." >> how are you? "the fighter" and "blue valentine" when we continue. maybe you want school kids to have more exposure to the arts.

maybe you want to provide meals for the needy. or maybe you want to help when the unexpected happens. whatever you want to do, members project from american express can help you take the first step. vote, volunteer, or donate for the causes you believe in at membersproject.com. take charge of making a difference. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: the boxer mickey ward

is known with his three epic bouts with arturo gattty in 2002 and 2003. less well known is how he made it to the top. born and raised in lowell massachusetts, he learned how to box from his brother dickie eklund. when dickie became addicted to crack cocaine, his addiction threatened to derail his career. the new film is called "the fighter." actor and producer mark wahlberg spent several years trying to get the film made. here's a look at the trailer. >> this is my younger brother. >> what is this? >> taught him everything he knows. >> you don't know where this fight is headed? >> i'm still his trainer. >> off fight next week. >> after i win i'm going to start making good money. >> good luck, daddy. >> don't hold your breath, casey. >> bye, baby.

>> i'm a fighter. >> i heard you were a steppingstone. >> i've had a few tough fights but the next fight you're going to know who i am. >> he'll lose that one, too. so move that sugar ass. >> don't disrespect her. >> micky ward is 31 years old, he's here because he needs the money. >> look at the size of that guy. he's got 20 pounds on me dickie. >> you don't fight, nobody gets paid. >> i'm quitting, shelley, i'm done fighting. i don't need it anymore. >> it's sad that you let them take it away from you. >> i was embarrassed. i told everybody i was going to win that fight. i'm sick of being a disappointment. >> look, mick, nobody's got heart like you, you're a very talented fighter. i'm going to give you a real shot, make one last run at this thing before it's too late. >> what about my brother? he's taught me everything i know. i can't do it without him. >> with all due respect, he's too much trouble. >> dickie, get on the ground right now. >> he's a fighter!

don't break his hand. >> mick, i was doing it for you. >> you did it for me? do me a favor, don't give nothing for me no more, okay? >> you ready for a title shot? >> i'm not a steppingstone anymore. >> he's using you. >> you can't be me. you had a hard enough time being you and that's why you're in here. >> why am i the problem? i'm his blood, i'm his family. >> you're crazy. >> i'm the one fighting. not you, not you, and not you. this is my shot at a title, i won't get another one after this. >> micky has a chance to do something that i never did. >> okay. i'll see you in micky's corner. >> this is your time. >> i'm micky ward. >> you're micky ward? (laughter) >> rose: joining me now, mark wahlberg, christian bale and

director david o. russell, i am pleased, obviously, to have them here. how long have you wanted to make this movie? >> for over five years. >> rose: what was it about the story? >> everything about it. i grew up a huge fan of micky ward. i met him as i started to grow in my career and i thought, you know what? i've got to go out and find material that i want to make and stuff i want to develop and there was a rights issue then paramount called me and said not only did they have the rights secured but they had a script they wanted to make and that's where it started. >> that rights issue, right, that was that dicky had sold the rights? >> there were a few people who had claims to the right. >> your character, dicky eklund, sold the rights? >> well, mark knows better than me. >> dicky sold the life rights to micky. micky didn't know. that's whey heard. >> there's the movie right there. >> rose: there's a good movie right there. tells you everything you want to know, right? (laughter)

tell me about micky ward. this is the guy you wanted to show his life. >> yeah, mickey... he's had an amazing life, the obstacles he he's had to overcome. to so many similarities between micky's life and my life. we grew up 30 minutes from each other. we're a family of nine. we had older brothers who were the apple of mom's eye and had to fight and scratch and kick and claw our way to where we got he's somebody who inspires me personally and professionally. >> rose: what about dicky? >> dicky is an amazing guy. you know, he had all the talent in the world. he was blessed with the gift he just didn't have the heart, the desire, the drive that micky had. i always said if you could combine the two of them you would have had the best fighter ever. >> rose: and nicky knew that? he knew dicky was better. >> yeah. >> rose: except for the cocaine. >> micky wanted it more. micky wanted it more. >> rose: that's the heart. >> i think it came more naturally to dicky. dicky... and he started younger.

he'd had hundreds of fights. by the age of 13 he was pretending he was old sore he could fight older guys. he had hundreds of fights before. he fought sugar ray leonard before he was 21. i think he had the burden of the whole family thinking he was the bred winner, he was going to lift them out of a whole situation and he had this genetic freak ability where he could just drink himself stupid and go out partying all week and jump in a ring and still win. eventually it caught up with him. >> rose: and what happened to dicky, he fought sugar ray only a couple weeks before he had a motorcycle accident at hampton beach. he showed up to the press conference in crutches, still was able to drink a couple beers, go in and go the distance with sugar ray. >> rose: and knock him down or not? >> ah... >> all depends on who you ask. (laughter) >> rose: so you come to this knowing lots of people have made great fight films. >> yes. i mean, i'm inspired.

i knew that we had... >> rose: "raging sbul where you started." >> exactly, and "rocky" are my two favorites. i knew we had something completely different. >> rose: it's more about family than fighting? >> a mother with seven sisters like a gang and the brother who is sortover more close... the sweetheart relationship with the mother. the weird ed pal thing with the two brothers, i hadn't seen that before. >> the women were what i wanted to bring forward more. the women, the seven sisters, they're very powerful women in the picture. >> rose: so what drove this, his passion to see it done? a script that you liked? or... a director who had an idea? >> there was a script that we liked and for whatever reason it kept falling apart. people would be attached to it then they'd walk away and i couldn't give up. i made a promise to micky and dicky and their family that i was going to get the movie made and i met christian and i'd seen "the machinist" and i thought this guy can knock dicky down a

part. >> tell him about your daughter's school. >> our daughters went to the same school. >> you thanked her at the beginning. (laughter) >> rose: give credit where credit is due? >> 10%. >> rose: santa will be good for her. >> she'll want 10% of bed men. >> rose: if she's that smart she'll probably negotiate that. it will be the "bat man" not "the fighter." but she'll be proud because of "the fighter." >> you know, it ain't just that. the great thing about this movie is that mark managed to get together people who really, really loved this movie. and that's what's so important because mark had bigger names than myself who were going to be playing dicky. brad pitt was going to do it, mat damon was going to do it. that's fantastic casting, but it didn't come good for whatever reasons. but what mark managed to get, we're getting david, getting myself and then i found it infected the whole crew.

i haven't been on hardly any movie everywhere every damn crew member feels like a filmmaker on it because they were so invested in it. there was no cash on this movie whatsoever. everyone was doing it because they loved it and every damn person would be coming up and talking about scenes and loving it and that comes right from the snake's head, you know? >> right on. >> rose: you made this for $11 million. >> no, no. $20. >> $11 below the line. that's all we get to make the smu vie on the set. >> but they were into it... >> rose: how many weeks of shooting? >> 93 days. we shot the big fights in three days. 33 days. it was perfect. it was the way a movie should have been made. we originally talked about making it for more than twice that. i don't know where the money would have went aside from people's pockets that are already pretty damn full. you know, we are... the movie's like lowell. >> rose: so tell me about the

fight scenes. >> we only had three days to do them. mark trained to be a real fighter and dicky learned how to hit the mitts with them so they were good with the mitts training together. mark wanted to look as close to dicky as he could. it was hometown pride... micky, excuse me. so he wanted to fight. the sequences are 20-minute long tse xwenss. shot with an hbo crew from that period using the beta cams they used in that period, 1990, it's a bit of a period movie. we had eight cameras doing that the way hbo does it then we had 79 hours of footage. it meant mark could do the choreography in big sections, not shot for shot. then we used the actual commentary of larry merchant, cut and pasted it, jim lamp ling thank you for correcting me. i like that. i need it. >> rose: you can see that. >> you can't get actors to

duplicate the shock of those announcers after dumping on micky ward for six rounds and saying what a bum he is who should retire-- this is the middle fight of the movie-- he stuns them all and knocks out al fan sow sanchez. he was supposed to be the next de la hoya. he didn't get up. he was in the center of the ring for 10 minutes because of the body shot. and a body shot is a really weird way to knock someone out. >> i've seen mark do it a few times in his ring in his house. >> he tries to get nerve the ring and i say don't do it. >> but the great thing about him is that there was that energy. nobody got... there wasn't that boredom and monotony. these guys were busting their ass inside the ring, i was outside doing the cornerman stuff. they managed to keep that energy going and i think you can see it. >> rose: nicky becomes the corner man. >> yeah.

>> rose: so what did micky say to you after he saw the film? >> he was thrilled. he was thrilled. >> rose: surprised, too? >> yeah. he was just... you know he obviously never addressed... i mean voiced concerns, but i think that there were some secretly, but he was thrilled. i think dicky seeing the movie the first time had a hard time with it. he said to me... he looked over and goes "you know, he looks like a million bucks and i look like a two dollar bill." but once he saw it with the audience, he realized all the stuff he had to go through, all the thing he is overcame were extremely inspirational and he's shown in a very heroic light despite making awfully poor decisions throughout the course of the movie. the end result is the most important thing. and we brought him out at the end of the premier in l.a. and he goes "the first time i saw the movie i was disgusted and now i realize, you know what? i changed, it doesn't matter, i don't care what anybody thinks." >> rose: did you spend a lot of

time with him? >> absolutely, yeah. yeah. we were out in lowell, and went around to all his haunts. there's a scene in the movie with dicky walking down the street and he's kind of like the mayor. there that's what it's like. people shouting hi to him, going around barbershops. i was meeting policemen who had arrested him ten times he knows on a first-name basis. going to crack house, gyms they used to train at. and then micky and dicky came and what was it three, four weeks? >> they lived in my house for a while. >> so they trained, hang out, getting to know each other. >> rose: how long was he in prison? >> well, actually he went down for eight years. we had to condense it for the movie. it was awful lot which was condensed. but as he says it was the best thing that could have happened to him because he got clean, got clean in the head and he realized okay, he's got to stop it with this belief that he's still going to make his comeback and that he's the star. he had this crazy burden throughout his life, like i was

saying which he was finally able in prison to say it's done. i'm living a lie. and he's able to tell the rest of the family it's micky's time now. he came out of jail and trained him to be world champ. >> rose: this is a clip when micky goes to prison to see dicky. >> i just can't face myself. he's my trainer now. >> it's all good. yeah, they got you fighting alfonso sanchez. >> on hbo. >> how are you going to fight sanchez? >> i ain't gonna talk about that i am not here to talk about that. >> yes, you are. >> you watch the fight and you'll see the plan. >> hey, hey, what is it? you scared? embarrassed because you don't have a plan? we're brothers, just come on. let him punch himself out, take

him to the body, right? get inside, switch stances like you're going to work his right, hit him on the left. >> you ain't me. all right? you can't be me. you had a hard enough time being you when you had your chance and that's why you're in here, all right? i'll fight sanchez the way i fight. >> rose: and there it is, the relationship, the story is about family and relationship, brothers. >> loyalty. >> rose: and loyalty. >> loyalty, how you need loyalty at which point loyalty ceases to be healthy, when it starts to become claustrophobic and it's... and then micky you know, had to pull himself away from it and redefine. >> rose: you look a bit thinner the film than you are now. >> well, you know, dicky loved to party and... i mean first off we were both playing welterweights and mark and myself were both quite a bit heavier than welterweights. we had to lose weight for that. but also if there was a championship bell for doing crack and drinking and then getting in the ring, dicky would

win that and we had to be able to play the crackhead part and then also... he's always lean, but after he gets owl of jail he's clean. much healthier. >> rose: so you had to get in shape for the film? >> just lose a bit of weight. but the makeup did a wonderful job. >> rose: didn't you train for a long time in anticipation? that at one point you'd play this role? >> yeah, itnded up being all together about four and a half years but that what i had initially signed up for. but it did allow know continue to get better and better and even when i went on to do other films i would bring the boxing trainer bo cleary and my athletic trainer with me on other films and we would train three or four hours a day before shooting in another movie and it did ultimately help know look like a boxer as opposed to an actor who, if shot the right way and ed ted the right way could look pretty good. >> you mean you developed the physical attributes of a boxer who could win or you developed

the motion... what did you do to make it look like... >> it's not about looking, it's not about the appearance. there's a lot of boxers who don't look physically imposing. it's about looking like micky ward in the ring and looking like a real fighter that means on the speed bag, the jump rope, the double end bag, the heavy bag, the way you're moving. and i'm a south paw, micky's a righty so it took a long time getting comfortable standing in that stance. any time i got in a conventional stance i would immediately start to square up and end up back into a southpaw stance >> he looks good, have you seen? on the jump rope, it's something else. i can still whip his arsz but he looks good, right? (laughter) but he's good! >> rose: the truth? >> yeah. (laughter) i think we should set up a fight to promote the movie. >> i do, too, i'm for that. >> rose: don't you think that would working? you could do it right here in this studio. we've got all the cameras here. we can do it now. we'll do it tonight.

>> it will be quick. (laughter) >> rose: this is a first rounder. >> i like when they go what was that? i said well that was the bell, you almost made it to the end of the round. >> (laughter) >> rose: so looking at the fight game today, you like it? >> i think obviously it's in big trouble. mixed martial arts is taking a lot of attention away from boxing but you don't have the great heavyweights like you had before. hopefully there will be future stars to come because boxing is still the sport in my opinion, i enjoy watching mixed martial arts, i'll watch anybody fight, i love it. can't get enough of it. >> rose: set this scene up. this is where micky's mother confronts charlene. >> this is the heart of the movie to me. this is where i think people start to understand who are viewing the movie what the soul of the movie is and what the movie is really about which is that it's almost like every scene was played like an

emotional thriller or emotional suspense. he brings his girlfriend played by amy adams, a bartender-- all real characters who we knew and met, all based on the truth-- who said "i want to meet your family, you should rethink your management." the family thinks they're going to keep managing him. seven sisters, dickie and alice meeting his girlfriend charlene and saying... them daring to say let's try something else and what you get is the this amazing dynamic the family which is what made me want to do the film. >> rose: roll tape, here it is. >> what problems? >> problems. >> like what? >> like maybe you not showing up on time to train. like maybe him having to come find you in a crack house when you're supposed to be at the airport. >> i'm sorry. i don't know who you are, why you're talking. >> i'm charlene. we just met.

we're together. do we need to do this again? hi, i'm charlene. hi, i'm charlene. >> hi, i'm janet. >> we're together! >> what are you gonna do, mick? listen to some mtv girl who works in a bar? what does she know about boxing? >> i know they're going to vegas and getting paid to train year round. sounds a hell of a lot better than what you got him doing here >> you gonna let her talk like that to your snore >> come on, micky. >> i told you, we're together. this is my girlfriend. i want her here. >> i have done everything, everything i could for you, micky. this mtv girl comings on. >> stop calling me an mtv girl, whatever that means. >> wild. >> rose: that's a hell of a scene. >> that's only half of it. >> rose: what did you whisper to him? >> just the way amy starts saying the line "year round" is

the complete... it's the same way that i said it. that's probably like after doing six or seven takes and i have a line coming up later saying year round, year round. and she's saying it the same exact way. >> rose: i said to follow your lead of accents because i didn't want ten different boston accents in the picture. >> rose: i wanted him from the get-go? >> yeah, well we were working with the studio and other producers and stuff and there were other directors and darren air november ski was attached for a long time and we were pretty far down the road with two other directors and christian and i were meeting with them and i just kept talking to david about the material, calling him. we'd been friends for a long time, we worked together on two other films and he kept saying all these great things about what we should do with the script and i'm writing them down and saying thank you, this is a great idea, i'll team them this idea. then i said wait a second. no, no, i got the best idea, he has to direct the movie. and i told him, i said listen, guys, i know we're far down the road with these other people but

just hear what the guy has to say. and christian was... >> rose: did you aglee >> mark was a real gent about it. i think he probably would have brought up david's name a hell of a lot earlier because i was kind of going "why isn't he mentioning david? david's great." but i think that... you know, very respectfully mark was thinking he didn't want it to look like it was kind of hey, buddy, i'm bringing in a buddy. but as soon as he mentioned david i was like it's great, yeah, let's meet with david. >> rose: >> i said i'll come in a little late. >> it was nothing like the first meeting that david and i ever had. (laughs) >> rose: what was that, david? >> >> i'm not going to go... i won't go into it. >> i auditioned him for three kings and it didn't go very well for me. (laughter) >> the world is filled with actors who have audition stories. (laughter)

>> we got together and this was the right crowd for me. >> we both have the same love for dickie. >> absolutely. wanted to come in from that point of view and also not being a deep dark addiction movie. >> that's not interesting. how do you think i changed it when we came in. how do you think it changed? >> because everyone else was talking about it and there was this great earnestness to it-- i don't know if you'll agree with me on this-- but when you meet micky and dicky, there's this great sillyness and vibrancy and dicky's like tigger. he's buoyant, light hearted, it doesn't matter how low he's going. he's still up and loves people and wants to chat and hug and meet people. and david seemed to me to get that. you've got the tragedy and comedy. he's very earnest and totally silly as well. so he's perfect for this. >> rose: (laughs) >> why make a dark drama when you can make something that is... has a lot of humor and a lot of emotion.

and that's why it's so much better. >> rose: the inspiration. >> well-earned inspiration. >> absolutely. >> rose: >> they're still climbing a mountain. they're not broken people. we were hanging out with them... i go up to hang out with them all the time. i love them. >> rose: >> you had to have people who care about them. >> you mean the family or everybody in the neighborhood? >> everybody. the whole town. >> rose: in the bars everywhere. >> they're beautiful, hard-working people who have unbeatable spirits. >> rose: so tell me what happened in the audition... >> no, you don't need to go into that. >> i'm sure most directors... how many, 50 actors and i'd already cast my friend spike jonze so i was probably doing it as a favor to the studio. >> he was just treading water. >> thank god... good on you for just throwing that away, right? (laughter) >> they had a meeting, charlie, they were probably... met on their own for 15, 20 minutes. i came in they were literally

huddled in the corner at a hotel in santa monica. almost. (laughter) and i sensed that but i knew david wouldn't cheat on me. not on the first date. so when i walked christian outside i said what do you think? he started going on about his agent wants to meet a couple other people but he goes "i'm not the kind of shop-around guy, i want to do it with david." and i lit up. i said great, i gave him a hug. i ran back inside and told him. >> what's interesting is this is your film but the collaboration you two had developed he was in on the director search. >> yeah, i mean we definitely... you know, we wanted everybody to feel comfortable who to hire. you know? (laughter) sort of like why not? is that what that was? (laughter) >> mark is a producer on this movie and he carried it for many years with todd and david and ryan cavanaugh and that's good

producing. he wanted his co-star to feel... >> i'm telling you this guy's going to be running holly weed. if he isn't all right. >> he might be, behind the scenes. >> rose: he'll have his own studio for sure. >> it's actually not a joke. >> it's not the first time you asked me, are you intuitive, you know, it's a street hustle. taking this, applying this, a big business. >> there will be a studio. you heard it here first. >> rose: just look at the tway career is developed. >> i first met him as a mumbling guy off of "boogie nights" he was 26 years old and 15 years later i'm saying "godfather, godfather, let's put this movie together." >> rose: did you two ever get in the ring while you were make this movie? >> did we? >> we were in the ring but we were... there was... we would have micky and dicky in there but mostly i had the mitts on, you know? i was doing the training stuff because they was a point...

(laughter) >> if we don't talk about it, he's going to beat me up. he never had a chance. >> he can't, he's the brother of the competition. >> there was a point at with which we were thinking of actually filming... (laughter) >> we were at one point thinking of doing the whole sugar ray leonard and dicky fight, you know? it just didn't work out. dicky was 21 in that fight and, you know, we're not 21 any longer. so it just seemed like... you know that really... we were talking about let's do it, let's make it on the t.v., let's do it real grainy and eventually it was like why don't we just use the real footage. >> we used the actual footage of sugar ray fighting dicky and it looks enough like christian because it's blurry, bad quality. that's the biggest thing that

happened in lowell was when dicky fought sugar ray leonard. >> but when you see him moving, bobbing and weaving and shadow boxing he still looks like dicky anyway. >> you captured all dicky's movement. but that was the hardest task of the script. i inherited a project from darren aronofsky who was thinking about doing it before he did "the wrestler" and that would have been a beautiful film. >> he jumped off as soon as i came on. i was like, um... (laughter) >> so darren's directing and darren goes "i'm out." (laughter) >> it had nothing do with you, know. he did "the wrestler." >> i think there was a possibility that, you know what? just because now christian was interested, matt had been interested, brad had been interested, a lot of other people and it never happened at some point he had to say okay, well i've got to move on and do something else. i have something else that's real and can happen now and be good. i wasn't willing to let go. i think there were times when i was getting to so discouraged and i felt... man, maybe in the

future i'll be able to produce it but the clock is ticking and i'm not getting any younger and at some point you've just got to step away from it. >> in the boxing ring in the tsongas center when you were there there and micky and dicky got in the ring and sugar ray leonard got in the ring and the place went nuts. and everybody was crying and locals were up there. that was great meaningful day for them. reliving those glory days. and sugar ray leonard getting a lot better resthepgs time around. >> he literally said it was the most scared he ever was. >> rose: to come back? >> no, at that fight. because of the tension outside. >> that was the height of the busing controversy in boston. >> rose: racial tension in south boston. >> and he came and said he never felt so terrified and to come back and get kind of reception and a standing ovation during

the filming of the movie made it very emotional. >> the biggest thing that ever happened to the community after that was the documentary made about him and now this will be the biggest thing. >> i talked to a journalist from lowell and he goes "you know what? the last ten, 15 years, lowell has been the place high on crack street. and now it's going to be the whole birthplace of the fighter." i said "it deserves to be. not only micky and dicky but future champions to come." there's a lot of great talent there, a lot of good people and they don't deserve to have that kind of reputation. >> i would like to tell one film making story. we used a film within the film because there was a true documentary being made about him that he thought could be a comeback and it turned into a crack... the first film about crack in america. >> and they fooled him? didn't tell him? >> but he... if he stopped being a crackhead it would have stopped being that movie. so he could have made it... everybody was very excited. he could have made it a positive thing.

so they partly fooled him but he also made his own bed. so we had that device that the movie within the movie which is wonderful. and it allowed know do interviews with them throughout the film and i said let's just do interviews. we have no time in the schedule, charlie, to do these interviews with the characters. i said put them on the couch and we'll interview them. and sthorp in character, so immersed in it, that we did it at 3:00, just threw questions at them, said okay, tell me about the two of you. tell me about what it feels like to be the pride of lowell. tell me what it feels like to give up the mant that will you didn't want to give up. nobody inspires a brother more than the one who won't give it to him. that's why he wanted him back at the end. it became the bookends of the movie. he had an emotional reaction that was just spontaneous in one take at 9:00 in the morning and there it ends. >> that comes from the

atmosphere created by the director. we would have had the characters down if everyone wasn't in on it. so it's rare you get that amount of sincerity and improv that is just bang on the money without thinking about it. >> it also happened pretty quickly. i remember we did the fights first. i was like we have to do the fights first, we're doing this training, we have to get it out of the way. then i was like we've got to do the training stuff, too. and he was a little bit uncomfortable about that because of the big pivotal fight scene between christian's character when dicky comes back from jail and the mother and the whole big blowup and that stuff. >> do the end for movie first. >> but i felt very comfortable and confident that these people were already becoming their character that they were soaking them up. i could see the characters. i had known these people for a long time so seeing melissa, seeing christian, seeing amy i was like it's going to be a

non-issue. >> rose: congratulations, it's great. >> thank you, charlie. >> >> rose: "blue valentine" is a new film from writer/director derek cianfrance. it the shows a marriage between a nurse named cindy and house painter named dean. it premiered at the sun dance film festivals. "blue valentine" stars two of hollywood's most exciting young actors, ryan gosling and michelle williams. here is a look at the trailer. >> you got any, like, talentd? >> like hidden talents? >> can you dance? you can tap sdmans >> can you? >> no. i'll play a song, you dance. okay. i can't really sing. i have to sing goochy in order to sing. i have to sing stupid. okay? >> okay.

♪ ♪ you always turn... hurt the ones you love ♪ the ones you shouldn't hurt at all ♪ you always taste the sweetest rose and crush it ♪ until the petals fall ♪ you always bring the kindness of it was a hasty word ♪ you didn't... >> you're actually good! >> don't dance to this part. ♪ and if i broke your heart last night ♪ it's because i love ya most of

all ♪ >> whoo! >> rose: joining me now, the film's stars ryan gosling and michelle williams and director derek cianfrance. i'm pleased to have all three of them on this program for the first time. first of all, congratulations. congratulations. >> thank you. >> it's a very good film. took you 12 years to make it? >> 12 years. well, that was until... it got to sun dance after 12 years and harvey weinstein picked it up and he decided he was going to release it december 31, so that meant another year. so this is the 13th year that "blue valentine" has been... >> rose: and what was it he promised to you when he picked it up? >> he just spoke with such passion about the film and the performances of ryan and michelle and he had such a track record, he's such a legendary

producer that we thought we had to go with him. >> rose: what's amazing about is your perseverance to make it. what did that come from? why did you feel so obsessed by this story >>? >> when i was a kid i had two nightmares, one was nuclear war and the other was that my parents would get a divorce. when i was 20 they split up. that was confusing and bewildering time for me and i felt like i had to confront all those fears i had a a kid with a piece of work because i was entering my young adulthood then and i thought i needed to be able to move forward and confront those things that scared me as a kid. so i started working on it. it just felt like the film i was born to make but it just getting rejected or ignored and financing would fall through. crazy thing would happen. i think it's important to finish what you start so i just stubbornly stayed the course and tried to will it into action and i felt cursed for all those

years. like the movie was cursed, i was cursed. but the first day we started shooting and i had ryan and michelle who i couldn't have dreamed of having two better more generous capable actors on set with me and we spent so much time working on it that when we were set it was meant to be. it felt like we were alive. on the first day of shooting we were shooting this and a bulldog road down a street on a skateboard. >> if that's not a good omen, i don't know what it is. >> rose: you first, am i correct signed on to this early on and stayed with it even though he was having a hard time getting the money >> when i first read it i was 21 or 22 and it was the most important script i had come across at that point and it became the sort of lens that i saw the entire world, everything that i read everything i listened to, every movie i watched sort of filtered through my dream of making "blue valentine" or my dream of what

the movie would be. and it gave me something to attach hope to. i was younger, i wasn't making a lot of movies, and this movie represented like the future if i could make that happen i could see my life sort of beyond a certain point. and then i stayed involved with it, every time i went back to read it there were things i can't understand about it then. like do you remember that question you asked me? >> there was a scene that never made it into the film where she had... as a nurse a woman came in and she had a tumor on her breast and i asked michelle why that scene was in the movie, this lady had had this tumor that she let go for... it had gone way out of control. it had been like ten years she had had it so i asked michelle why that scene was in the movie. >> and i didn't know. i had no idea. i couldn't answer his question. it confounded me and, like, kept me up at night and i would pound the streets, read the thing over

and over again trying to figure out what was the answer to derek's question and, like, why i wasn't understanding it, why i wasn't... what i was missing and then i went back to it three years later when we were going to make the smu vie again and it was perfectly clear to me why. but then i found another mystery inside it so that kept me excited and when i went back to it again, i found a whole other... it just kept me interested. there was always something i didn't quite understand about it and i think that makes me excited to work. >> rose: anything you didn't understand about it? >> i still don't understand it. that's kind of derek's... that's your thing, if you don't mind me telling you what your thing is. he asked questions he doesn't know the answer to. and what i think so... what was so kind of shocking about the film when i read it is that it was... it wasn't telling me how to feel and it wasn't... it

didn't pretend to know everything. it was open and saying that i don't understand this and i like to start a dialogue about it. what happens to love? where does it go? what do you think? and that's all he asked us through the entire four years for me and six for michelle, what do you think? and he asks that of the audience and there's no answer. the movie kind of read like a who don it. in the beginning of the film someone is murdered... has murdered their love in cold blood and you... the whole film you're kind of retracing your footsteps trying to figure out who did it and you never know. it's only up to the viewer to know. >> rose: and what did you do to get them ready beyond sort of having lots of conversationings about love and the characters? did you put them in this house for a month? >> yeah, well there are two

different threads in this story. the first one is the past where they have to kind of fall in love. and you know i had known me sflel 2003 on and ryan from 2005 on and in that time i knew them individually. i kind of consider ryan and michelle to be co-writers on this film with me. they would rewrite scenes, they would have dialogues, they would talk about the emotions and everything. so by the time we started shooting the first scene of the movie where they're together i had never seen them together. and the first thing we shot is a scene where ryan comes over to michelle's house with flowers and his face is beat up and i just kind of put the camera in the back of the room and just watched what would happen and it was just... there was this tangible connection between ryan and michelle on the screen. and it... they had been doing character work for years and suddenly they were on screen showing it to each other so i felt like i was making a

documentary of two people getting to know each other on screen, two people falling in love on screen. it felt that real and i used all my training in documentary film to try to just support that. and then we had to shoot a... the second part of the movie where they're... they've been married for six years and there has to be some sort of shared experience in that and i wanted to wait six years to shoot that part but the financier wanted to give us the weekend. so we agreed on a month and in that month we just decided to go into the process of these people's lives and to try to build history and memories so we had a house and made it a fully functional house so there was dish soap underneath the sink and socks in the sock drawers and they basically lived their there with their daughter faith who plays the daughter and they basically lived there for a month and we'd do things with them like how much does a house painter make? how much does a nurse make? subtract your house payments, subtract your car payment, figure out how much you have

every week for groceries and send them to the store we w that much money to buy groceries. so ryan and michelle are in this house for a month doing dishes three times a day and taking their daughter fishing then the hardest thing about this movie was to get them to start fighting because we all liked each other. they liked each other, they were friends. >> so how did you do that? >> i watched my son walker. he would bill these amazing block castles and towers and at the end of the night he would have to tear them down and it was painful to him and i started thinking about those monks that do the sandman dahl las and they spend weeks and weeks and then sweep them up immediately. so i realized we couldn't be precious about this thing no matter how beautiful so i asked them to detroit it and i gave them their wedding picture and asked them to burn it and they doused it with lighter fluid, surrounded it with fireworks and then both lit the match and lit their wedding picture on fire and after that they could start fighting.

>> rose: you liked this improvisation or collaboration a lot. >> yeah. >> rose: there was the scene on the bridge. >> yeah. i mean you... i don't think... i think things happen that you can't plan for. i think that's what derek was asking. when we did that scene on the bridge he said to michelle "whatever you do, don't tell ryan your secret. i don't care what he does, don't tell him." then he said to me "i don't care what you have to do, you get her to tell you her secret." and then after hours of shooting i've asked every possible way you can ask somebody what the secret is and she's not telling me and the sun's going down and i... i wasn't... it wasn't until i found myself having climbed over the brooklyn bridge that i'm on the other side of the fence that i realize, you know, derek had brainwashed me. i was looking down at my death. >> rose: you have a natural fear of falling? >> what's that? >> rose: do you have a natural fear of falling? >> i do have a fear of heights

and somehow i found myself in this place and i'm on the edge of the bridge and michelle tells me her secret. but that's what those conditions can create. are you going to talk to me or what? >> what? >> are you going to tell me what's going on? you're not gonna tell me? >> i don't know what you want me to say. >> i want you to tell me what's going on. i want to know. you've got me feeling sick, you know? i'm very intuitive. i know there's something up. can you tell me? stop! stop! no! stop! stop! >> you gonna tell me? >> stop! come down.

>> you gonna tell me? >> come down! i'm not kidding you. >> you gone from tell me what it is? >> please, come down. please stop. >> you want know go over the edge? >> no! i want you to come down! come on, it's dangerous! >> are you going to tell he? >> no, no, stop! >> i was in shock and i feel so bad that you get one leg over and towards the river. i'm so sorry. to this day i am sorry. >> thank you, charlie, for bringing us together. >> i couldn't believe my eyes. >> rose: you needed that, didn't you? >> i thought she was trying to kill me. >> i couldn't believe my eyes. i felt like i was watching the movie. i felt like i was not nodding eating popcorn watching the movie. >> rose: what do you call this kind of acting, ryan? >> foolish. i have to say that, my mother's watching, she hates that that happens.

for me i feel like there's no other way to work. obviously we're going to have to work other ways but that's, there's a mystery. you never really know what's going to happen. you know what needs to be infused into the scene but you're at the mercy of places, at the mercy of life as well. it's a mystery. >> the best directors i slow in a certain reference for these... what you guys do. they do, don't you agree? >> absolutely. >> rose: the best of them >> it's a live. snep people like robert altman. marty scorsese would say "i could don't this, how do they do this?" >> well, there has to be a love for actors. they're the ones putting themselves out there. >> rose: and their vulnerability and their ability to go there. >> so you have to respect and love them and support them and they make... without them what do you have?

i mean you don't have a story or characters. you have nothing to watch. >> and they even take your imagination and expand on it because of the skills and freshness of eyes that they bring to us. >> if i didn't have brave actors or these kind of actors in my movie, that bridge scene would never go. we could shoot that until night and we'd never get anywhere. or we'd get there right away because the actors would be too weak and she's give him up the secret immediately, you know what i mean? so it took her strength and his insanity to do it. >> there is a chemistry. a, does it exist here? and, b, what makes it happen when it does? >> it's either there or it's not... that first scene where he come with flowers, if it wasn't there, that tangible chemistry wasn't there between them, i would have had to resort to cinematic manipulation to make it happen. >> rose: what's that mean? editing? >> editing, music swells. manipulation, closeups, and i

could just shoot this film and kind of watch put them a scene and let them go and they would make it alive. and that was the thing i was so scared of after 12 years and 66 drafts of the scift and 1,224 story boards i was nervous it was going to be steal because you can overthink something and then it has no life in it. but they had a life and so i could just watch the life. >> let's look at this scene. >> you're never going to get to the liquor mart. >> richardy from co-? >> no, but good guess. >> jon bon jovi. >> bobby ontario. >> what's he doing in there? >> i don't know. i mean, buying liquor, i guess. >> how come you're just telling me now? >> because i'm telling you now.

>> how come you didn't tell me when we were there? >> i don't know, because i was flustered. and i'm telling you now. >> you talk to him? >> no, i mean, like, hi, bye, how are you? i'm fine, good. >> how are you? >> yeah, he asked me how i was. >> and you told him? >> i didn't want to but we were just... we were stuck there, we were in the same store buying things together at the same time. >> i wish you'd seen him. you wouldn't feel so bad. he's fat. >> what do i care if he's fat or not? >> i don't know. >> the script is like a series of connect the dots and then i let these guys... this is how you want to get from one dot to the next, make the line you want to go, you know? if you want to make a wavy line, a straight line but they had to hit the dots. >> rose: what did you say to me? everybody's been there? you hate to watch this. >> yeah, you have that conversation. >> on either side. >> yeah. >> rose: that's what makes it so real. so what happens to them?

>> the truth is that there is no way of... there's no answer. it's a question. they're somehow in the midst of it all i think he was able to remain objective. we were totally biased to our characters. he treated us like athletes and fighters and it was action the bell rung and we went in. and then we went to our corners and we fought for our characters. there's no... these people aren't able to step outside of themselves to really look at it. they're not going to therapy. they're not... i did this interview with my friends and i said what's your problem with each other? what's your biggest problems? and she says well, he doesn't squeeze the sponge when he does the dishes. and every time i go to touch the sponge it's filled with dirty water. and she was sure it was his

passive aggressive act that he was trying to drive her crazy by not squeezing out the sponge. he'd go to the effort of doing the dishes but not squeeze the sponge. and they're since divorced and i'm sure... maybe it's about the sponge but i doubt it. so we tried to find a way to focus on those little details. those things that for some reason when you're in it are so important and allow the audience to determine what the bigger issues really are. >> i mean, the thing that i... always strikes me when i see the movie is that it's just two days and i think it's so easy to forget but really because of the way the time is intercut, but the present is two days in a marriage and it starts with... it starts with being woken up too early. it starts on the wrong foot anyway. so to me i mean it's my hope anyway or it's my that it's not

the end. and everybody says oh, and then they get divorced but to me i think it's the beginning of a more honest... like you said earlier. once you identify, once you name something, once you say this is the problem here's what we call it that's when the change starts to happen. so in my romantic mind it's just the beginning of a conversation, of an honest conversation. >> did you two find out you thought differently about love and just... and does that happen here? >> i think... i think it's an incredible character, i really understand where she's coming from and i understand the dilemma of being told that all you're supposed to want is a good guy who loves you and loves your child and is faithful and... but what if you aren't in

love and that you have but you're not in love, that you want more? what if that person that you're with doesn't want anything out of life but for you to be the center of it? it's a very... it's a terrible, terrible place to be and i really felt for her character. >> rose: thank you for coming. thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: pleasure to have you here. plesh you to see you again. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org quest every dy

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