tavis: greenglarbgs i'm tavis smiley. first up tonight, a conversation with gordon brown, the man who succeeded tony blair. he has a new text about how we can overcome the economic crisis. also our preview of our next installment of our primetime series "tavis smiley reports." it airs december 29 and focuses on one of music's biggest new stars, dudamel. he is leading a movement to bring classical music and education to a new generation. we're glad you can join us. our conversation with former british prime minister gordon brown coming up right now. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes.

>> to everyone making a difference, >> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance proudly supports tavis smiley. tavis and nationwide insurance, working to improve financial literacy and remove obstacles. >> and from contributions to your pbs station from veers like you. thank you. [captioning made possible by kcet public television] tavis: gordon brown is, of course, the former prime minister of great britain whose public service includes his time as english chancellor of the exchequer and he has released a text about the economic downturn called "beyond the crash."

overcoming the first crisis of globalization. he joins us tonight from new york. it is an honor to have you on this program. >> it is a pleasure. tavis: let me start by asking the obvious. you called the book "beyond the crash." by that, you mean exactly what? >> i mean if you look at lehman brothers, the subprime mortgage crisis, irish banks, greek debt, what's happening around the world, the slow recovery, we're seeing something bigger than the individual crisis themselves. we're dealing with a fundamental shift in the way the economy is working. for 200 years, america and europe dominated world production and world exports and manufacturing. now for the first time, the rest of the world outproduces america and europe, and we have to deal with these problems and these problems at the heart of what we are trying to do at the moment to create jobs and give people new opportunities for the future.

i'm really saying that think ahead, for the next 10 years about what we can actually achieve. there is going to be a massive consumer market in asia, twice the size of america. this is where we have to export to, this is where new jobs will come from in america and europe. we should produce high technology projects for them. that's where our economic future does lie. tavis: i hope later in this conversation i get a chance to walk down a list of countries, specifically that you talked about that ought to be challenged in the coming months and years. first, though, is it too early and if not, grade for me how we have done in this first crisis of globalization? >> stage one was stopping it from becoming a great depression and i think the action of the great powers including what barack obama has done in america have made it possible to avoid a depression. we have had a recession but not a depression but stage two, stage three, stage two is to get

the global financial system working properly. we still have a long way to go. stage three is getting growth going and unemployment down. we have a long way to go there. we came through the first stage by concerted action. what i'm really suggesting is we need the same international cooperation, to build a global financial system and give us stability and also to get unemployment down and create growth in america as well as in the rest of the world. stage two and three have yet to be completed. tavis: you're pretty modest in this text. you'll recall the headlines, around the world, gordon brown the world. you moved awfully quickly and nationalized the banks in the u.k. look back on that moment for me. again, you're modest of it in the text but what do you make of that moment? >> it was a big decision because

nobody had quite understood that the banks needed more than just short-term finance or liquidity. the banks needed to be scompleetly restructured and there is still a -- completely restructured and there is still a bit to go, you know? take over and seminationalize the banks that were in trouble and make sure any money given in the banks was in the form of government ownership so we could get the return later. that was a very difficult moment because we had not persuaded other countries to do the same. other countries still clung to a different analysis of what was wrong but eventually it was proved and quite quickly that we had to take the sort of action i was proposing and then we came to april, 2009, and we had to do something as equally bold, get the world together and underpin the economy to enable the world economy to prevent it having a

depression. there were two big decisions and we were bold certainlyly in what we did and i think there are bold decisions we have to make the future and we have to be as equally determined that we have actions that yield results as we did the first two years. tavis: a profit is without honor in his homeland. so how is it that you have been so regarded around the world, as that headline said, "gordon brown saves the world" yet the voters in the u.k. were not as kind to you. >> well, i think there is an insecurity in every part of the world. you come to america, people feel very insecure. you have these congressional elections. you go to australia, people didn't return the labour government. our problem was that there wasn't enough time after the crisis had been stopped, at least, the collapse to banks had been stopped to persuade people

that the next stages had to be gone through as well. so you have to rebuild and get the financial system properly sorted out and live with the fact that you got to get your deficit down. i couldn't persuade people that these stages had to be gone through and therefore people being insecure, worried about the future, you know, we're dealing heavily with incumbent governments. i have to accept that we didn't communicate enough what we were trying to do. tavis: you got to accept it obviously. do you take any of this personally if it is about people staying insecure, do you take it personal? >> i worry about what happens to our country. i do feel there are millions of people unemployed around the world and we could do something to get them back to work. i don't think that economic policy can be anything other than making sure that people have jobs and decent standards of living and sometimes in the

feelings that were prevalent in the 1930's people lost touch with that responsibility. now i see a lot of the 19 po's with some of the actions -- 1930's with some of the actions that are happening now. my ideas are not as orthodox in terms of economic thinking at the moment and i believe over time people will see that it is incredibly short-sighted to cut education at the moment or science or technology and become protectionist and run away from trade around the world. and retreat into the national shell and say we'll deal with this problem in america, britain, france, so forth. we need the same level of international coordination that we have had before. this is a global economy. you can't have financial stability in one country if other countries are unstable and you can't have growth in one country if there is no trade between that country and other countries and i believe the lessons that we will learn,

maybe quite painfully over the next few years, if there is a protectionism, you can't afford to cut the means in the future. tavis: you talk about protectionism being wrong, does that mean countries in the e.u. that believe austerity is the answer, is are they wrong as well? >> i think it became one of the misjudgments on history. if people allow fiscal psychologicalization, which is necessary to destroy growth, then we will pay a very heavy price. when you 10% unemployment and very little inflation, you should be acting to make sure that more people get back to work. the lesson that we had to learn in the 1930's has to be relearned again. tavis: you talk in this book, in fact, you reference about the insecurity that americans are feeling.

there is a study out called the rasmussen report that states that almost half of americans believe that our best days are behind us. when one reads your book "beyond the crash," it is hard to imagine how the world advances if this american dream doesn't really mean anything and if half of americans believe our best days are behind us, well, you take it from there. >> i can understand the insecurity that people feel. jobs are on the line. they are worried about the prospects for their children and their houses have negative equity and they are worried about what is going to happen in the world community. , in my book, i say the american dream is one of the great inspirations not just for america but for the rest of the world and i say it can be reinvented for this generation. what we're talking about is the more skilled the middle class is and through education and proper

qualifications and science and technology, to the middle class occupations in the future, the mrn american also succeed. america should recognize what is a huge consumer market that 10 years from now, the asian consumer market will be twice as big and america has to export to that market, and therefore you can either solve your problems today by increasing production. america has got to increase its production, sell to these new market markets. it has the branched names and the good -- brand names and the good. america and europe together of course can sell to these big markets in the future. if you look, then, to the future, you invest in education and free trade and one in coop wration china and india and asia.

all the continents will create massive numbers of jobs. i'm optimistic about america. the rebirth to have american cream dream is part of that. i think america that is talent. quite a different challenge, which is the growth of a middle class, on almost every continent in the world. tavis: you narg the book that markets -- argue in the book that markets need morals. let me say to you at best, some would find that oxymoronic and at worse, laughable that markets can, in fact, have morals. >> i think you have to underpin free markets. important in your family life, the way you deal with your neighbors and the way you expect a small business to operate. if you don't value integrity and responsibility and fairness and people doing the duty and telling truth, then you don't

have a successful economy in long run. what happened is that wall street and the financial institutions and britain and elsewhere forgot at the center of the economy there has got to be trust. they shreded the trust that people have and they made these banking institutions difficult for people to support and even want or the part of. ymbing i think the lesson for the future is you need not to underpin. belief in fairness and responsibility and so we should build into our rules and standards for financial institutions exactly the same values that we value and what we talk about our families and our neighbors and our communities tavis: you raised a very powerful question that markets need morals is how you conclude the book. i want to get your take on, you

narg the book that we're asking the wrong question. not how we get out of the economic malaise, the economic mess that we're in now. more importantly, what kind of country do we want to be? tell me more about that question. >> well, i think the american people are inspirational because of the sense in america that if you work hard, you can get on and you can make the most of your potential. and i think there has been too little opportunity for large number s of people, not just in america, but in different parts of the world. we're building the economy in the future, the one that is going to create jobs for our children, we have to remember that stunt the key. if you're starting a -- zsh opportunity is the key. if you're starting a business, have the chancor getting loans from the bank and getting the capital, you a talent and need education system to respond and give you a chance.

the next economy will be built on those people with potential being given the chance to realize that talent in practice and i think that american dream is relevant to the whole of the world. so i see a modern economy where america and europe, but obviously we're talking america about the huge opportunities ahead of this country. i think there is too much pessimism here and i think people have begun to believe that the american century will not occur and i don't see it that way. i see american creative genius and talent. if you take everything from the ipad to aero space, everything from carbon technology and all the new form suit cal good that are being produced, it is american and european countries still leading the way. i believe that talent is what people will be looking for when they choose to buy good whether

you're middle class that n asia, europe or africa. can they respond with an opportunity-driven society, giving people the chance to realize the potential. tavis: i assume, though, i take it that you would agree there is no crucial distinction to be made between pessimism, which does not operate in a vacuum and the american people or british people believing not just in pessimism but their country is on the wrong track. those are two different things. >> i agree but if you look at the basic potential and the strengths and the reservoir of talents and creativity in america, then you have to be optimistic about the future because there is no challenge that as a nation you cannot meet. if you look at the decisions, however that have to be made in the next few months and years, then i say you can invest in education and technology. i'm not the -- fashionable at

the moment because cuts are the order of the day here. if you say you to be a free trade nation because you a bigger market out there than at home for the future then i'm fighting against the protectionist sentiment that exists at the moment. if you recognize this as a global problem and not just a national problem then i'm fighting against those countries retreating into their own shells. yes, i'm reporting things that are not fashionable but i believe the test of time will show if you don't think ahead and equip yourself with the future, if you don't really imagine what the markets and what the economy is going to be like in the future, then you get left behind and so i believe that what i'm suggesting, the test is what is going to happen. i believe what i'm suggesting is the right way forward. it can be based on the potential of the american people but each

country has to make the right decision. tavis: we have talked about the u.k. and europe and the u.s.a. let me before i let you go, talk about -- he has a book out as well, former president jimmy card carter has a book out about china. >> china has been very cautious. they decided to move with open and trade -- the enterprise system. trade, commerce, moving around, competing in business that, sort of thing. they decided to keep tight control by the communist party or the political system. and i think in the future, it is inevitable that china is going to have to liberalize their democratic system, as you probably noticed, 23 of the top chinese leaders, some of them out of office now, wrote a letter to jintao recently

condemning the chinese government for tightening up on free speech. tavis: there are president carter's thoughts. you of course talk about it in this book. it is impossible to have this conversation without talking about china. >> i think president carter is right. human rights and democratic freedoms will become a major issue in china over the next few years and i suppose what i'm saying is look, china has made huge strides. they have got 400 million citizens out of poverty. that is a huge success story for them. they worked hard to achieve the that. there is a long way to go. i see citizens of china wanting to join the middle classes. i see citizens wanting to escape poverty. i see families wanting to make the best opportunities available for their children. they are not too much different from what we in america and europe want to see. i think china can increase the

availability of its citizens to increase more and if it did that then you would have a world economy that was better balanced. at the moment there is not enough consuming power in asia. it will grow over the years and it could grow more if we had an agreement. yes, we have to recognize that china has made a very big statement to its people that it is going to take them out of poverty. it is going to create these middle class opportunities that haven't existed in the past and let us help them do that more quickly and if we were do do that more quickly and taking imports from the rest of the world thrlt be more jobs in britain, america and europe. tavis: former british prime minister gordon brown. the text is called "beyond the crash." overcoming the first crisis of globalization. thank you so much for your time and sharing your insights.

i appreciate it. >> tavis, thank you very much. tavis: back in a moment with a preview of our next installment of our primetime series, "tavis smiley reports." stay with us. on december 29, i hope you will join me in primetime here on most of these pbs stations for the fourth installment of "tavis smiley reports." this next one hour special is called "dudamel: conducting a life." they see conductor to have l.a. philharmonic. he is the biggest star of the classical world and he is credited for bringing music to young people across this country. here now, a preview of "dudamel: conducting a life." >> you know that one -- ok?

you know, have to be really -- so i know. tavis: spend any time with gustavo dudamel and his delight in what he does is so evident. as busy as you are, are you still having fun? >> completely. you need to have every day a little bit of fun. of course, i love to work. and this is -- and i -- tavis: you can see it in the way he approaches the orchestra before a particularly difficult rehearsal. [laughter] or when he talks about the concerts that are planned for those who work at his hall, everyone from the parking attendant to the food service providers. >> i love the people.

open. we have sa concert for them. tavis: that's your idea? >> yes, because it is like, you know, i think it is something very important. tavis: you also see it in meetings with l.a. philharmonic president and vice president for artistic planning. >> some work. tavis: in this particular meeting, they are discussing a ground breaking initiative to put concerts in movie theaters across the country. >> one of the things that we think would be spun the to have a sort of backstage -- fun is to have a sort of backstage pass so people can follow you, not everyplace. >> i was thinking like everywhere? >> no, but many places. but then the other part, if we

could set up cameras after the show so that people can say from chicago, can actually be hooked up asking questions about the performance. >> i think that is wonderful. i think it is very important. because they can feel that they are part of that. know that they are listening to something and that they have the connection. oh, my god. it is so tragic, the beginning of this -- tavis: but you see his joy the most when he is with children. >> oh, my gosh. what happened? but then when we get to this moment ♪ . tavis: whether you're a fan of classical music or not, gustavo dudamel is a fascinating subject. "dudamel: conducting a life" airs right here on most of these

pbs stations on wednesday, december 29 at 8:00 p.m. finally tonight, a quick programming note for our viewers in the los angeles area. as you may have heard this station, kcet will be going independent next year, which means this program will have a new home here in southern california. you'll be hearing a lot more about this over the coming days and weeks. as they say in the business, stay tuned. until next time. thanks for watching. good night from l.a. and as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs resner of nine inch nails. that's next time. we'll see you then. >> all i know is his name is james, and he needs extra help with his reading. >> i am james. >> yes. >> to everyone making a difference,

>> thank you. >> you help us all live better. >> nationwide insurance supports tavis smiley. with every question and answer, nationwide insurance proud to join tavis in working to improve financial literacy and the economic empowerment that comes with it. nationwide is on your side. >> and from viewers like you. thank you.