>> rose: welcome to our program. tonight, we remember and appreciate those who have come to the table over the past almost 20 years and died in 2010. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: maybe you want school kids to have more exposure to the arts. maybe you want to provide meals for the needy. or maybe you want to help when the unexpected happens. whatever you want to do, members project from american express can help you take the first step. vote, volunteer, or donate for the causes you believe in

at membersproject.com. take charge of making a difference. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: tonight we devote our entire program to remembering the extraordinary people that we lost in 2010. many of them sat at this table over the nearly 20 years that we have been doing this program. we remember them this evening with a look back at some of those conversations and moments. some of them became friends. we will miss them. always they said things that caught our attention. and we say to them this

evening good-bye again. >> i think that nobody could compare with the great henry james in quality nor do i think-- it's true that edith warton although greatly my superior, her books are somewhat similar to mine in her conception, her idea of fiction,ed kind of things she wrote b the moral points of view she cared about, are often the same that i cared about. >> rose: and that's what you want to write about, tell me in your own words. the moral dilemma facing a certain strata of american society. >> well, yes. that and also the great crises that faced our civilization as, insofar as i had been in a position to observe them. i wrote a novel about the great crime of richard whitny. i wrote a novel about the private schools of america. i wrote a novell about great columnist walter littmann. i picked things that i thought were significant morally in the national life

that i had had a front row seat to view. >> do you think-- it is the best book you have ever written. >> i think it is. >> there are prophets all through movies like "forrest gump" and other movies. it is a question of where you stand in the food chain. i mean the gross players who bring in the 600 million, tom hanks and the director and of course winston is not a gross player but he created it. but the point is that these players make a profit on the movie. the studio makes a profit on the movie because it has a profit built into its distribution fee. it is true what david pekar says that there is supposed to be an overflow that takes care of all the mistakes and most movies are not profitable. but from the standpoint of the individual, independent producer such as i am, it is very tough, particularly when films could

laterallyized, a term for paying for other people's mistakes or your own, so i want to very quickly, i have literally a statement here from the picture that i cannot name. and it's not a paramount picture. >> rose: is it a brown picture. >> could be. so far i will do this very rapidly, so the public will understand. this film shows in the last statement that it has taken in 262 million dollars at the box office. that's what the people all around the world -- >> sounds like two good men to me. >> no comment. the studio has gotten out of that 262 million 131 million. because 50% of what is paid by you at the theatre is taken off the top for distribution expenses. now in addition to that, 40 million is distribution fees. it doesn't cost them 40 million dollars to distribution a movie. then comes the gross participations, there's another 30 million. the point is 262 million

dollars paid at the box office of this unnamed movie, now shows a loss of about 43 million it is an enormous hit all over the world it is not true that there are no profits. it depends on where you are in the food chain. the net profit participant is the lowest man or woman and he's usually a producer. when richard zanac and i made jones "time" magazine said they will never have to work again. why? cause there were no gross participations. we had a lion's share of the profits. and there was no one ahead of us. all the actor approximates were on salary. and it was, by the way steven spielberg did nicely on it as well. i'm very proud to announce that. >> rose: peter benchly did nicely too. >> peter benchly, we were all flying first class for a while.

>> rose: . >> the first crucial moment was the epiphany i had at the refugee camps where all of a sudden, will you see that in the movie. it makes it look like the wounded confederate soldiers in atlanta in "gone with the wind". but you see all of this miss erie behind me in the refugee camps. and that just absolutely infuriated me that was a big moment. and that was a moment i dedicated my life to making the russians pay. and we did. >> rose: big time. >> big time, big time. enormous casualties and amounts of money that they didn't have. >> rose: people said this was their vietnam. >> that's right. and it pretty well was. >> rose: yeah. >> rose: with even more devastating consequences. >> right within the other defining moment was that september 26th, 1986, four

heinz helicopters which had been the scourge of our infant ree but four behind helicopters, they were untouchable because we had nothing to shoot them down with up until then. and four came in to land at jalalabad at the air force base and my guys got three of them. >> rose: that's when they began to realize that it was all over. >> that's right. and we never really won a set peace battle before september 26th and never lost one afterwards. >> rose: and the judgement of history about this should be what, that it was the sort of beginning of the end of the soviet union within that's right. clearly was. the walls came down 11 months afterwords. >> rose: what did it do to empower the moo handle dean. >> you keep that thought. what it did to the soviet union was that i have never said we broke the backs of the red army because they were too big. but we broke their hearts and we destroyed their credibility in the politte bureau and when the berlin

wall was in danger and when the poles were in the streets primarily because of the courage instilled to them by their pope, but when they were in the streets and things were giddy and hungry, the red army, the army was unable to persuade gorbachev that they had a military option because of their fast defeat in afghanistan. and that's what it did. >> i grew up looking at most of the designers that are still around today like valentino,-- and the karl lagerfeld of of this world and as i grew up i started doing my own, depicting what i thought fashion was about. and i live in the central london. i'm surrounded by the things most of the other designers don't really see, the real london, the club scene, the homelessness, the things that other designers don't really want to see. >> rose: so your influences are different. >> my influences are

different and more, i suppose, honest and direct about the things that i care about in the world. because even though i work in fashion it's not really, you know, i still have to look at what else is going on in the world. and some of that comes into my work. >> rose: so and we see more sense of the street from you then we would see from lagerfeld, people like that? >> yeah, well my level where i've got such a young clientele that really want honesty in their fashion, i do not so much shop tactics but i do like to expose what is going on in the outside world into the fashion world which doesn't always go down well. but then people can either take it or leave it. >> rose: my sense about you having known you for five minutes is you don't really care. >> it's not that i don't really care. it's just that i'm trying to change people's public opinions about fashion itself. because it's not as shallow as it seems to be in the normal public's eye. it's not just about parties

to go to and you know, who you know and who you don't know. i think i'm just being more honest about, i don't really go to so many parties. but you know, i just have to keep my feet on the ground and not my head in the clouds. >> rose: but for you fashion is about one truth. >> yeah. >> rose: and what else, i mean what ought fashion be? >> well, on the-- for me it is about a cut, proportion and color. they are the main influences. the cut has to be right. the proportion has to be right. and that's more of the-- side to me which you don't expect the public to understand but that is what you are there for, to understand it for them. >> first you have to start out recognizing what happened to us, why marxism collapsed. some of my republican friends said it is because we stood tall in grenada. we could have sent the providence police force to grenada. i think collapsed because of

its own internal contradiction. >> rose: there was no economic structure there or -- >> it was inevitable. >> rose: or motivating idea. >> right. now it doesn't mean that standing up to their aggression around the world by every president, republican, democrat for the 45 years of the cold war wasn't important. but if we believe that being tough is what made the soviets good, then we believe that now that they're good we no longer have to be tough. and that's the problem in washington today. and that's one set of problems. the other is that a certain arrogance that we won a contest of values with marxism. i don't think that's true. that contest is still under way. and we have a lot of problem. >> rose: where is the other side being articulated? >> well. >> if there has not been a victory of the democratic ideal in eastern europe and soviet union, then what is the concept. >> yeah, i don't mean there

isn't any of that. but what we have really seen is a triumph of systems. free markets, private property, entrepreneurship. that's the real victory we've won. now we've got to win with the victory of value and that means some very important improvements here at home. >> which had an accident after i returned to oklahoma, had worked for the turkey nation for a while and decided to go to graduate school. i was in graduate school and i was living on a graduate assistantship, very little money and i dedecided to try to travel from my home to the turkey nation to see if i could get a consultant job. and i was going to the turkey nation when my friend, sherry and i ran into each other head on. >> rose: this is an incredible story. the two of you knew each other, ran into each other. >> that's correct. we-- i guess we saw each other for a split second before the accident because

she kind of turned to avoid me and i kind of turned to avoid her. the odds of two friends running into each other is probably very small. she died at the scene and i came very near death. >> rose: and had a near death experience. >> had a near death experience. >> rose: tell me what that was like. >> well, at the time i didn't know you called it a near death experience. i came very, very close to death. it was actually very wonderful. >> rose: it was inviting, even. >> it was very inviting. i've never and in my entire life, i'm 48, i've never had a feeling of such overwhelming love. i felt like i was bathed in love and it is hard to explain the feeling. it's more profound than childbirth or more meaningful than the first time i fell in love. but anyway, it is very inviting and you sort of feel like you want to go there. and that everything sort of is complete. and i thought of my daughters at some level.

and. >> rose: you thought i don't want to leave them. >> i said i don't want to leave them. i always thought that was part of it. but then i later talk with the nurse who was in the ambulance who said she was actually straddling me and beating on me and trying to keep me from going. so i didn't do it by myself it wasn't totally as a result of my own-- . >> rose: what did you come subsequently to learn about that. because you know many people have shared the same kind of experience. and then other times medical science will say no, there's no such sense of looking into the -- >> i tell you what it did with me. is it made me absolutely not afraid of death. and after leaving sort of even a subconscious fear of death behind, it made me less afraid of life. and so i was able to-- . >> rose: more courage. >> more courage. i think it actually enabled me to have the self-confidence and the courage to lead. and helped prepare me to be in a leadership position.

>> when robert kennedy asked me before this president-- . >> rose: how do we get this solved. >> no, he said look here. you have a missile there. we have our intelligence. think about it. and this is really the thing you wouldn't really tolerate so i said they telling me, that we have a missile there. please tell me what kind of missile for me-- and the short answer was on all-- from president or his brother, you should answer we have only a defensive weapon in cuba. not, no further. so like a parrot. >> rose: like a parrot. >> what else, i have only one phrase, from the government, say-- . >> rose: we have only defensive missiles in cuba. >> yes. and they would only discuss, if you look at all the minutes, it was always

discussed defensive missile. so but in this case, they could see it was a different thing. but five months later they had a special discussion about me. whether i was deceiving them or not. if i dereceiving then they have to ask-- what kind of ambassador mi that i deceive the government. of course intolerable. and they come to the conclusion-- . >> well, i suppose the person that had the most influence on me is my husband, john clark. we are about to have our 25th wedding anniversary which is very nice. and we have three kids. and in fact we were married in new york on april 2nd, 1967. and so we will have our anniversary again in new york which is really rather nice for 25 years. i think he has had the

greatest influence on me of anybody. because he's seen me through and supported me and also given me courage sometimes when i was not such a-- i don't know whether i'm such a courageous person now but i looked courage. i lacked often moral courage and emotional courage as a younger person. i would avoid a fight over anything. and so that if i disagreed on something that meant, and i don't mean just-- i've always enjoyed a good argument, i have to say but i mean you know, a fight against another body, a huge thing, if it, if i had had my choice in earlier years i would have always walked away rather than gone through-- . >> rose: he changed -- >> he gave me the courage, no, he gave me the courage to be strong. and to, and he's often give

me-- given me the courage to take flying leaps at things professionally that i perhaps might not have done because he said yeah, you could do it, you could do it. and he has also made it possible for me to continue to be an actor and a mother. >> in the church that i grew up in, baptist church, spirituals were part and parcel of the daily sunday fare. we heard spirituals on sundays, sometimes group was come out from detroit and do programs of spirituals and religious songs. and i was very much immersed in that. i began to feel that spirituals were the proper music to be played in churches, part of the heritage of black americans. and i think that not not only is it-- i believe the heritage of-- but i think could exert a healing influence as charlie said on

all of us. i think that it's the kind of music that connect us and bridge, a musical bridge to bridge the gap between ethnic groups, racial groups, all sorts of people, all sorts of people in various countries, particularly in this country. and not only in this country but in other countries. i think of music as a bridge. i way to communicate. it is a form of communication. and spirituals of course i think are a very emotional type of communication which reaches people deep inside. it touches something deep that maybe perhaps they, perhaps they couldn't be reached on on an intellectual level i would say. people can always be touched by music. can always be reached by the right kind. >> emotional. >> i think spirituals. >> . i don't feel i had done it yet. i don't feel that i really have ever done a great part. i don't feel i ever really

directed a great movie and i just feel that-- i feel that i'm getting myself into a position where i may have the opportunity. i know, i know. >> no, go ahead. >> but that's the way i feel about it. it is really honestly the way i feel about it i don't feel that i've done it yet. i don't feel i've ever really had the great role and i don't feel i've ever really been in the great movie, the great -- dish mean i look at anthony hopkins now and i look at remains of the day. and i go oh, where is that. you know, where is a movie like this that i could do. you know, why am i never, ever even see these kind of scripts or they ever even come close to me. but anthony hopkins is doing part after part after part. i'm very envious. and god, help. harvey keitel, harvey keitel is doing wonderful work. you know, i'm not saying that i'm not doing wonderful work and i'm not saying-- i

think speed is terrific, you know. and i love it. and juan-- did a sensational job directing this movie. and it set a new kind of genre for action films. but there is no back story to my character. there's no back story to any of the characters in that movie. it's not like in line of fire where you know more about malkovich's character than my character, you know, my character is just there to push the action on. and it's wonderful. and i love the movie and i love to see it. and i love to watch this movie over and over and over, it's so exciting. but the great role, i don't feel i've really ever had. and the great, and the kind of films that i want to direct, studios say oh they're too dark, or they're too this, or i don't think they're commercial. so i feel that i'm still, i'm still at a place where, you know, i look at woody allen. and the real film maker to me is a filmmaker who writes his own things. he's the author of his own, he is the artuer filmmaker.

he writes his stuff and does it and i did that with easy rider and with the last movie. but, but after that, i was like not allowed to really do any of the projects that i wrote and coy never get financing for them. so i feel, i feel a little uneasy about that. i feel like i'm just not really, not really, i haven't really finished the work. >> but you feel ready to do it. >> oh, yeah, ready to do it. >> you're 58 i think, 136, you're 58 years old. you feel like that the muscles are strong and the brain and everything is ready to do it. do you think you'll get it. do you think you do. >> yeah, absolutely. >> yeah, i got to think that. >> that's right t wouldn't be worth it hanging around. you could just act but you are so motivated to be -- >> to make a difference. >> i want to do it and like you know, it's-- it's funny because i'm at a place now where the success of something means something important to me. so that's another, you know,

it's not that i'm-- yeah, it's just, listen, if my life went on the way it is right now, i couldn't complain. >> yeah, exactly. >> but i just feel, and that's a good thing to feel, that you still got to do it. you still got to prove it. >> almost all of the players that i had in my 27 years at ucla graduated, got their degrees, most of them in four years, and practically all have done well and inn chosen professions. i think there is over 30 attorneys, there's 8 ministers, there's 10 or 11 dentists, 10 or 11 dpok doors a lot of teachers and but the vast majority probably are just in business in one sort of another. that makes you feel good. >> rose: how are you able to do that when so many games in that ten-year span, obviously you had a good players. >> well, obviously, i didn't win them, my players did. i like to feel that i helped, of course i do. but winning, our mutual

friend mike-- the better he does, the better players he will receive. nd when you get something rolling, i think they come to you, it's just like building a better mousetrap. then as time goes by, you learn more about how to work with them. i always tried to take for years i would take an extra course in psychology even after i was teaching just to learn something about working with people. because i think as far as knowledge of the game, whether it be baseball managers or basketball teacher, coaches or whatever it is, i think the knowledge, there's not too much difference. but there is tremendous difference in the way they can get those under their supervision to work together for coming in. >> well, i love the senate. i'm not there today to bring bread and butter to the byrd

table because i, i paid into that system up there now for 51 years. and i draw just as much as-- i could draw just as much money and stay at home as i will draw as a united states senator. >> rose: i know are you not doing it for the money. >> why do i do it, because i love this country i love the senate. and i see that this constitution being undermined by this crowd that's in the white house. and i'm there to fight them to the dawn. >> rose: you have won a lot of new fans of robert byrd who weren't necessarily in agreement with all the policies of robert byrd. you've become a great hero to anti-war people, great hero to liberals, great hero to a lot of americans who not necessarily were robert byrd -- >> well there are a lot of young people out there who believe in what i'm saying.

they want to see someone who would stand up to the arrogance of this administration. they want someone who will stand up for the united states, for the united states and to the constitution. and i'm trying to do that. >> the one tremendous break i had, first break was when robert crum who was a friend of mine. >> rose: pretty good cartoonist would you say. >> yeah, i would say, agreed to-- well, he didn't agree to. i didn't even ask him, i was afraid to ask him but i showed him some of my stories. and he said yeah, this is pretty good, you know. let me illustrate this, let me take it home and illustrate it. >> rose: what do you think he saw? >> i don't know, some humor and you know, maybe some accurate portrayals of people that he knew and stuff like that because he did know a lot of the same people or same type of people that i knew. we lived together in the same neighborhood for about four years.

and anyway that was a tremendous break because it gave me, you know, a leg up starting out. >> rose: when crum comes around, that gives you a leg up. >> that's right, that's right. he used to take these cross-country drives every year. he couldn't drive so he would go with a couple of guys. he would show them around. so he was driving his 56 cadillac el door addo across the country and came to cleveland and stopped at my house. so i had had all these ideas about doing you know, new kind of comics because i thought there was all kind of potential in comics that hadn't been explored. and i did a, you know, a story for him using stick figures and you know, frames and balloons and captions and stuff. and i showed him a bunch of the stuff. i said what do you think of it. you know, in the back of my mind i was hoping god, i

hope he, you know, i hope he offers to illustrate it but he had never illustrated anything for anybody else but himself before. and i really thought, you know, i mean even i didn't have enough nerve to ask him to, you know, to do something like that. but he, you know, he looked at them and he volunteered, man. hey, he volunteered. >> rose: whatever your technique is, it worked. >> there were those who said during the '80s that you drove this organization into the ground. that george steinbrenner was responsible for the deterioration of a world cham partnership-- championship. >> that's true a lot of people said that. >> rose: what dow say? >> well, i say they may be right in some ways. so when someone looks back at that time and says george was meddling too much. >> possible, possible. >> rose: he was not listening to other people. he did not -- >> possible. >> rose: he didn't respect the farm system that had

been built up. >> possible. >> rose: he simply didn't know as much baseball as he thought he did. >> totally accurate. >> rose: and steinbrenner admits he didn't behave well under the circumstances. >> weim's not an easy man. i've never been a good-- you show me a good looser i will show you a lowers. that was a very famous statement. one i carry with bhee all the time. i've never been a good loser and i don't suppose i ever will be. >> i started as a newspaperman. i started before television had been invented if you can conceive of such a time. i saw the first demonstration of television at the new york world's fair in 1939. and then in 1953, i left the newspaper career when murrow suggested that i join cbs and soon realized that there were things you had to know in television which were not the things, same things you had to know to be a newspaper reporter. i asked the young producer at cbs, i can write a story all right. i think i know news all right but what is it that

people do on television that makes them a big success on television. and he said briefly, sincerity. if you can fake that, you've got it made. >> that's a great line from somebody like, one of those hollywood types too. he said that to you. >> he said that to me and i realized over the period of the next 30 years what he meant by it. >> that doesn't suggest that everybody who is sincere on television is faking it. >> no, it suggested that television is not necessarily a great medium of information it is a much better medium of giving you a sense of what's happening, rousing emotions about what is happening. and in the end you don't get to be on television as a newscaster unless you've learned that art, of making it seanez and nice and interesting and dramatic. >> rose: are you sorry you made the transition from print to television? >> no, it's been a wonderful 30 years but i must say i'm not sooree-- sortie to be

back now doing radio where the most of the time you spend is sent reading, thinking, talking and writing as opposed to television where half of what you do involves the mechanics of getting on the air, making you up, sitting in the right place, having the right camera and the rest of telephone. i have had all i need in a lifetime of meeting the standards of television. >> rose: and also shrinking your copy and you are talking within a very small parameter. >> yes, the imperative attorney of time-- tyranny of time. >> they were born in the 1780-- 1870s, church hill, and the youngest jon monet born in the '80s, that is relevant because they all came to full adulthood and political consciousness before world war i and the world that they remembered and they are in some sense trying to reconstruct in the catastrophic situation of europe after '45 is the stable and as they see it liberal, reforming world of

late 19th century edwardian europe. they want to complete the reform projects of what we now call the welfare state but what they would have thought of as the sort of network of security and safety and guarantees. and they wanted to do, to answer what maynard keynes another of their generation said just before the war ended. he said this war there will be a great hunger for social and personal security. and there was w for all the kinds of reasons which where obvious. most europeans had lived in 35, 40 years of war, violence, depression, instability, massacre. >> with the europe that these men built and it's an astonishing achievement because if we could think back to 1945, this was a continent that was completely flattened. >> rose: devastated. >> absolutely, impoverished, ruined, many countries had hadn't had the rule of law for 5, 8, 12 years in some case. no one knew what the future held. most assumed it was a brief

interlewd or third world war or a return of depression. >> rose: or add the whole russian, the beginnings of the cold war were taking root. >> absolutely. >> rose: and we knew what stalin had intended to do and had done, you know. >> many people in eastern europe thought well w we don't quite know what stalin is going to do you go communism can't be worse and may be better than what we had up to now. there was a brief period also that lasts until '51, '52 about illusions of communism. so between the fear of a return of fascism and expectations that are soon to be dashed of what communism might hold, europe was reconstructed as a politically liberal, economically prosperous and socially stable and secure, the most stable and secure of all the international units in the world is an astonishing achievement. we tend to underplay it because we grew up in it and it seems normal. >> rose: how much credit does the u.s. get. >> a lot but not as much as distributed. there is a tendency to

suppose that the united states came in in 1945,saw this catastrophic mess, poured money into europe, enabled europe to rebuild and then provided a sort of nuclear umbrella within which they were able to remain prosperous and stable and safe for the next 50 years that is a caricature. there is some truth in it. but the crucial point is that the united states is a variable at certain junctures. no one thought that the united states that america was going to remain in europe. the model was post world war i. americans will get out as fast as they come and truman was under great pressure to do just that and by the time that nato came into being. >> rose: everybody was fat agencied by war. >> it cost a huge amount of money to keep the army there. and promised to pull it back there were only a couple divisions left at one point. the american role in the marshall plan is crucial but sometimes misunderstood it wasn't the money. the money matters but the money was spread out from 48 to '51. and it varied from country to country. what mattered was the psychological boost. europeans in the spring and

summer of 47ee after an awful winter, terrible food shortages, no foreign currency so they couldn't buy stuff from overseas, from the states or canada or south america, europeans were really at their most depressed. much more depressed than even in 46ee when at least they thought they were rebuilding after the war. and what the marshall plan did, i thought it was because marshal went to europe then to moskow, came back to the states and realized and he told people like, he realized that europe was on the edge of absolutely imploding. that countries like france had no backbone. and everyone expected the communists to seize power so they probably would because no one thought they could stop them. what he did was basically say we will inject not so much money, though that too, but the promise of support, crucial support at a crucial moment. a psychological bridge. and it worked. >> if i were president, and i wanted to pick a time in my career as president of being unpopular, now is when

i would like to be unpopular. but as soon as we start legislating, as soon as we start accepting the responsibility that the taxpayer, the voting constituent has invested in us, as soon as this country starts seeing leadership from the white house, i think that's goinging to change. and i think that president clinton had honestly become the most important figure not only in the free world but the most important in the economic world. and i think that he's doing a good job and that's one of the reason why i'm encouraged to work with him. >> when you have magic, it is because you are finally possessed of a spirit. maybe some people call it a muse. but i think that i am finally possessed of a spirit. >> rose: what kind of spirit? >> it's a spirit that comes from being sincere and from having reverence and from being loyal and from study

and hard work, comes to visit me when i come to the stage. and it's with me all the time too. at home, when i write, or if i practice any artful thing, it's a spirit. >> we are not asking for an immediate withdrawal. i don't think anybody would ask for an immediate withdrawal because right now i think the american forces as an occupy pog we are have a responsibility to restore peace and order inside iraq. this has not been achieved. they have a responsibility to restore the main services in iraq. this has not been achieved. so that we have to find the right balance between going too fast and going too slow. >> i tell you what i do.

i am a constant-- i'm available to a lot of young directors who work for law and order. most of them have come up through the technical ranks and so they're not so comfortable with the actors. and so i sort of bridge that gap between the actors and the young directors. and then bridge the gap between the actors and the writers out there in hollywood. so i've gone up a couple of times now and spent a little bit of time with the writers talking to them and saying that. i welcomed an opportunity to be available to them at any time they wanted to talk. >> to actually sing the first time i was singing first lady and the magic float. that was to me what i wanted to do. i wanted to sing there and i thought that would be it. >> rose: mozart is a good place to start. >> oh you bet, nothing better than moz arth and handel for the voice.

>> rose: but what else, what other performances. >> lucia, it was incredible, the acceptance of the public and the sudden international fame. i think the first time i sang in italy because italy was somewhere where i thought well, i might get to italy but this was a fantastic debut. and the first night at the met, the first night i made with marilyn horn in new york in town hall. >> rose: so what you remember mostly are those first moments when you first set foot on a stage. >> on a different place, yes. japan too, is another. incredible, incredible reception. >> rose: audiences -- >> audiences differ in their appreciation or how they react to opera around the world. >> not really. i don't think there is much difference. they sure let you know if they like you and they let you know if they don't. >> rose: would you do anything differently? >> no, i don't think so.

>> rose: it worked out pretty well. >> wonderful. better than i ever imagined, really. the career just took over. sort of like a breaker, like a wave take on and on and on. >> you were riding the crest of a wave and it kept going and going and going. >> yeah. >> rose: no regrets? >> no, not really. not really. how could i have. it was just a wonderful, wonderful career. >> i originally saw penthouse as a way to create and income stream for me so that i could continue on as a painter. i had come to england. i was in england at this time because i simply ran out of money and i ran out of the ability to earn money when i was living in france. so i moved to england and took a job. eventually i ran a newspaper. was hired by a newspaper and moved myself up, became

managing director, editor in chief. and i got a chance, i got a feeling for publishing. and i would look at the newsstands and i would see playboy. and i never saw an english equivalent. i used to ask, i say how did this magazine do, i was not a employ boy readers in those days norco i have even been interested. said it is doing very well. so i put it in the back of my mind. if i'm ever going to do anything this is the sort of thing that i should do. i should create the english equivalent because if it's selling so well in england, the english equivalent, a magazine with the same formula but edited for the british public would have to do equally well at least. well, it did. it did much better. and. >> rose: you were off and running. i remember the lucky break you got which was that the post office impounded it or something and all of a sudden there was a controversy and all of a sudden everybody had to have it. why can't you -- >> i found, excuse me to answer your question. i created so much responsibility for myself because the magazine was successful in the beginning, that i simply didn't have the time to paint.

i couldn't do both. >> i've always enjoyed speeches of winston churchill. >> rose: did he write them, do we think? >> i'm told that he literally dictated them. he didn't write them out as i used to do. i used to write everything with a pen. >> rose: he would dictate it as kind of a spoken, some people like to speak it because if they write it, it sounds more like being written than spoken. >> you can certainly hear that in some of the texts that are read by speakers who have never had a hand in writing them themselves. john f. kennedy never did that. he never got up and read a text that he hadn't personally participated in the formulation and the revision and so on. but i, my days as a young

senate assistant, i saw quite a few distinguished senators, no names, who read text they clearly never had seen before. >> rose: i think they still do. they also go to congressional hearings and look at notes that they have not seen that much of before. >> i'm sure. >> rose: it's a busy life and a lot of congressional meetings to go to and all of that. but nevertheless, especially speaking. there are certain people that take great pride in speaking and its capacity to inspire. i would assume senator obama is one. i would assume that president kennedy was one. i would assume that certainly winston churchill was one. >> definitely. wz the power of the words. >> thank you for saying that. when people dismiss speeches as mere words, mere rhetoric, they really haven't thought that through very carefully. because mere words and rhetoric is what enabled kennedy through his inaugural address and through his civil rights

speech and through his american university commencement on peace and time and again to win the respect of the rest of the world. we've lost it now, we squandered it now but that respect is one of the things that made us a much safer country in the those days. >> we try and compare things and we seek advice from each other and this is something that helps us in our keferts-- efforts and i'm very happy and it's a period of my life, i had the first occasion to get acquainted with vice president gore and this report developed between us. and i have been trying to act in good faith in the name of my country, in the interest of my country and i'm sure that vice president gore did the same, in the interest of the united states. but in many respects what we did coincide.

>> i want young people to understand that if their goal is none, they have no goal. they might as well quit now. because money is not going to do it. that's not going to be the answer. i want them to know when they walk out the door, close the door behind them, to reach in their pocket, hold up their wallet. do it every day. and say will i be judged by this, or will i be judged by my integrity. and i believe so strongly and always have and i was raised that way by my mother and my father. that my word is my bond. and my integrity is something you will never take away. and as i used to tell the ballplayers, boys, god gave you class. he gave every one of us class when we were born. two things can happen. one you can give it away. you will never get it back. but number two, if you never

sell it or give it away, you will always have it no matter what. and that to me is basically what life is. i don't know what all this is about money. i swear, i could never understand what people were talking about when they meant you got to have money. well, i don't know. how much dow need? are you going to take it. i just want to know. there's guys out there with billions. now are they going to take it to the coffin with them? i don't think so because their kids are going to be checking their coffin to make darn sure that they didn't take that money with them. are you going it to pull it out but he can take the integrity right there he will always have it. >> we talked a lot about the afterlife. we both believed in reincarnation. we believe that there is another life after this. i don't have a clue what it is. it might be anything. but we believe that it does go on.

that this consciousness is either reborn t goes on to some other level. i don't know what happens but i don't think it's just lights out and if it is it doesn't matter anyway because it's nice to have a belief. >> it's -- >> when i was asked to serve as our ambassador to india they gave me one of these questionnaires which all potential nominees have to fill out, a volume nice form. my favorite question on it was list everyone you know who may rightly or wrongly be opposed to your nomination. my first thought was to send them the brooklyn phone book and say pick every third name at random. but i wrote instead-- . >> rose: why because they didn't vote for you. >> well, i served the area for 18 years. and i usually would get about two-thirds to three quarters of the vote. so a third were against me. but i wrote instead, if it is true that people in public life are best known by the enemies they have made, then mi proud to list among those most likely to

be opposed to my nomination, one saddam hussein. two, pol pot, three a melda marcos. kim ill sunk and mob out u. >> all of a sunday there is somebody at the door and the bartender says, jackie kennedy is at the door. i said come on, stop it you know, i mean, 1:00, 2:00 in the morning. and it didn't seem reasonable. and he said she's at the door. so we got out. we let her in and there was-- i mean and plus she was in a gold chanel suit with an emerald, i mean, it's like a princess of a fairy story. and she comes in, and george comes with her. and then there's lonnie an and-- and mike-- the whole

kabal. and she was coming out of mourning so they wanted her to have a good time. and the jukebox is going and george was the one that got the dance with her. >> i talk in the book sometimes about my father and how his life had a, he had a stroke and his life narrowed and narrowed as he became less able to do things. he lived for 18 more years. but his life narrowed that whole time. and as it did he was frustrated by that, frustrated by the inability to do things, a very physical man to do things. but he still found a way to accept these new limitations. and enjoy this new very limited life. and you know, it was an affirmation of just the sheer majesty of living. and part of the gift of getting these burdens is that you have to find in things you thought meaningless or small, you have to find a reason to live. and i think that as people face struggles now, they might have lost their job or

their home, their child intended to go to college, they can no longer pay for it or some other problem that they have. and you think how terrible this is and those all are, you know, tragedies and adversitis. but in there somewhere, you know, you find, you will find a new appreciation for something else. maybe the child will stay home for a couple of years and earn some money, live at home and earn some money to go to chrechblingt and those are two years he's spending or she as a young adult with their parents. as the person they are goinging to be and their parents. and what a gift that is, you know, that you are getting a couple more years with your parents but on a different level, when are you more sort of on the same plane. and i think in this i've gotten these gifts. some come hard to recognize but gifts nonetheless. >> in architecture you make up your blueprint, you design the whole building perfectly down to the last little stress beam and then you build it.

foreign policy is not like architecture. the general concept, you start out this was true of dean achison as well 50 years ago. you start out, you encount err an obstacle. you adjust to realities. you have got to bring congress along, congress says no, you back up. you have to bring the allies along. the allies say you have to take this into account, you adjust. you have to deal with the russians and so on. foreign policy is not architecture. and it is not prewritten. and i don't know the end of this movie now. all i know is that what is happening in kosovo is of tremendous importance not only to the people of kosovo over there the prime area ones concerned but also to the future of the atlantic alliance and america's role in europe. >> there was a time when the studios were changing studio heads regular leigh, once a week. >> rose: what has changed

about that? >> well, now it's three times a week. and there were two rather important films that got in the way of that mess. major train wrecks with. and just one was that was very near and dear to my heart. and the other one was something that involved my wife which was very near and dear to my heart too. a thing dahl called darling lily. >> you made that. >> yeah. and what was a catastrophe. and i finally said i can't deal with this. i really can't. >> why was it a catastrophe? >> oh, that's -- >> too painful, too complicated. >> it's too complicated, it's both. but it's much too complicated. >> this stuff really gets to you. >> it did then. >> so you left hold eye wood w to switzerland or where. >> yeah, went to switzerland and said that's it i'm just going to write.

and nobody can do much about that. they're not going to like it if they don't they either buy tore they don't. and i don't have any bosses with myself. i found out that i really did because julie kept saying you know better. it will, you will get some rest and will you go back opinions what don't we know or understand or appreciate about julie andrews? >> oh, you know, i say so at the risk of really sounding like just another fan. she is a remarkable human being. she really, truly is. her failings are fun. there's nothing really disastrous about them. i've never as long as we've been marry, i've never really found anythinging that i truly didn't like

about her. >> for you this is made in heaven. >> yeah. >> you know, the things that anger the hell out of me because they're so diametrically opposed to my mo. but always i find myself sort of inwardly smiling when she does that i remember one time i was really campaigning to get her to stand up for her rights and speak out more and not be a victim so much. and we were in switses land and she took off on me for the first time hi ever seen. and really ripped me up. boy she gave it to me. >> what did she say. >> i don't remember the words. i can remember the sound and the music and oh, yeah. and i started to laugh. i mean genuinely i thought what have i created here. what is this. and then she really got mad. she said you have been asking me for years to stand up for what i believe in and now i'm standing up and are you laughing at me rdz are

you making fun of me doing it. >> making fun of me doing it. >> yeah. >> rose: thank you for joining us for this hour. when you look at the list of people that have come to this program and have left us, it reminded us how many extraordinary people there are to talk to. we look forward to talking to some of them in the coming year. and we look forward to having you join us for the journey. see you next year. -- captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org