>> rose: welcome on our program. tonight, peter king and boomer esiason look at a weekend of pro football. also this evening, bernard renverks laiar talks about plos fer shellbeck. >> the role of intellectuals of writers should be to cool down this quantity of hatred. this is what i think. this is the reason-- one of the reasons why we made this book, to show how you can be of very different opinions. >> rose: we conclude with alex gib me. >> this is a film about embrags the contradictions and i think it is true that eliot spitzer brought himself down and he said

so in no uncertain terms. the way he was outed is instruct both because of the venom of his enemies and the explicit in their downfall, and also i think in the way of the department of justice behaved in this case. >> rose: football, two french philosophers and a film about eliot spitzer when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: maybe you want school kids to have more exposure to the arts. maybe you want to provide meals for the needy. or maybe you want to help when the unexpected happens. whatever you want to do, members project from american express can help you take the first step. vote, volunteer,

or donate for the causes you believe in at membersproject.com. take charge of making a difference. additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: the nfl play-offs continue with weekend with the ravens facing the steelers and the green bay packers at the georgia dome. on supported sea hawks take on the chicago bears and all eyes

will be on the final games between the new york jets and new england patriots at gillette stadium. jets head coach rex ryan has called the game a contest between himself and the patriots coach bill belichick. >> there is no question it's about-- it's personal. it's about him against myself, and it's-- that's what it's going to, you know, come down to. >> rose: ryan also took aim at new england star quarterback tom brady. >> you know, i don't want him to score so i'm going to do whatever i can to keep him out of the end zone. he's going to try to look at me and do what he always does after he wins and sprints off the field and all that. >> rose: joining me is boomer esiason, a former nfl most valuable player, currently an analyst for cbs sports, and cohost of the radio show "boomer and carton. with me from boston, peter king, a senior writer from "sports illustrated," and author of the web column "monday morning quarterback." i am pleased to have both of them on this program at this time. welcome. >> good to see you, charlie,

thank you for having me again. >> rose: peter, how are you? >> great, thank you. >> rose: we all seem to be very excited about the patriots and jets. let's just start there. >> well, i mean, charlie, i think that the last time they played, it was on a cold night in foxborough. it's going to be the same thing this sunday. tom brady basically wiped the floor with the jets, and, you know, mark sanchez is-- as he walked off the field, i was standing in the tunnel and watched him walk off the field. thee looked like a flesh popsicle. he looked like he was frozen soiled. and he played terribly that day. and last week in the comfort of indianapolis, he was way wild high. i don't know-- after the year that brady just had, i don't think it's a very fair fight personally. >> you know, i tend to agree with peter because peter and i do these things for a living. we go to these games.

i troy tulowitzkily called that game. after the game, mark sanchez played really well on the road in pittsburgh, on the road in chicago, probably two of his better games of his young career. and i do disagree a little bit with what peter said about his game in indianapolis. the first half was not good and threw an ill vased interception at the end of the first half, but the second half i think he was 9 of 11, 9 of 12, a dropped pace by holmes that could have won the game for him. the one thing i will say going into this game, the patriots do not have a great run defense. peter knows that, and i know that and if the jets can run for 170 yards, don't turn the ball over and do something special on special teams like they did at the end of the game with cromartie's kickoff return, guess what? they have a chance. i've walked a mile in mark's shoes where i've been an underdog because i played for the bengals, jets, and cardinals so i know a few things about being an underdog.

>> you mean the bermuda triangle for quarterbacks? is that what you're talking about? >> that's exactly right, peter. >> i'll say one thing about what boomer just said-- in my opinion the prescription for the jets to have a chance, play keepaway. and they have the running game to do that. the last four times they've played the patriots, they've run the ball well. they've run the ball for over 100 yards each time. the jets have a chance in this game. they've got to control the ball and limit brady's possessions. >> he's right. i will say this-- i've never seen tom brady play football better than he's playing right now and that goes back to the 2007 season where they were undefeated all the way into the super bowl. he threw 50 touchdown passes that year. since the cleveland loss about eight or nine weeks ago-- i'm not sure when it was-- he has played out of his mind and he's played at a competitive level i've never seen him play at before. >> rose: peter knows i'm interested in these kinds of things. what does it mean to be playing at the level he's playing at now

he's seeing more receivers? he's throwing the ball better? what is it? >> they took a bona fide first-ballot hall of famer randy moss and kicked him to the curb and allave sudden they became better. from a quarterback's perspective-- when they first played the jets in week two and threw two interception, the reason he threw two interception because he was forcing the ball to randy moss. when you have a presence like that in the huddle, the quarterback is aware he's not getting the ball because he's not happy because that's the personality he is. now they remove him from the equation and they have wes welker, julian edelman, and they're all happy. they're all teammates. they all work together and nobody is complaining for the football. so i think tom brady is relishing that, and i think he's playing exceptionally well in that kind of environment. >> charlie, look and see what happened in dallas when tony romo was able to get rid of terrell owens. he became a much better

quarterback. boomer will tell you, when a quarterback isn't thinking-- i have to make sure i'm looking at is this guy who is going to make problems for me if i don't look at him-- if you find yourself going to the line of scrimmage thinking, "i better make sure i look at this guy--" you're in trouble. right now, the new england patriots, the tom brady goes to the line of scrimmage, if he's going to throw it there are five guys out there and not one will say a peep if he doesn't get the ball. >> rose: what will be the most interesting match-up, beyond coach versus coach? beyond quarterback versus quarterback. >> i'm going to watch every time cromartie lines up against a patriots receiver. he opened his mouth, said he hated brady, threw a couple of slurs at him. now what you do suknow that no quarterback in his right mind is going to throw a lot of passes at revis, who was the best covered corner in football. you're going to look at the

other guy. brardy has had an incredible season. he's going to throw it on somebody so i'm going to be focused on cromartie. >> rose: you think-- for tom brady he has the personality that that kind of comment makes a difference? >> oh, yeah. >> you than-- ( laughter ) you know that-- and boomer will tell you, brady is mr. cool, but deep down inside, he's thinking, "i'm going to totally embarrass cromartiey--" he's going to try to embarrass cromartie in this game. >> listen, you have to understand something. brady and belichick together might go down as the best quarterback-coach combination in the history of this league. and one of the reasons that is is because they are ruthless. they might not come off that way-- i think belichick comes off that way. i know brady does not come off that way. >> rose: but he is. >> he is ruthless and that's what makes him so graeth great. peyton manning and drew brees are ruthless but brady and belichick take it to another level. and it will be fun to watch

cromartie probably eat a little crow. >> rose: he had to know that when he said that. >> you know, he's taken a page right out of his coach's playbook. the coach is the one lead and i think ryan is doing this because they don't want to look at what sanchez has done when he's gone to get glet. he's only thrown one touchdown pass, seven interceptions, and he has not played well against new england in that building. so i think rex ryan played it smart and said, listen, it's all about me. it's not about me mooi quarterback. at the end of the day it is about his quarterback and it's about their quarterback. it always is. >> rose: what about steelers versus ravens, peter? >> well, the two things about this game that interest me, number worngs ben roth less berger-- i mean, this game is the closest series in football. you know, five of the last seven times they've played it's been decided by a field goal. but the thing about the series is that ben roethlisberger, the last six times he's played the ravens, he's won, so he's back.

he's healthy. and i just think-- i like the fact that-- i think he's going to throw more accurate, deep because, and he's got a real big weapon in mike wallace running downfield for him. and the other thing, you know, this-- because this comes down to a field goal a lot, on the other side i like the ravens because i think billy cundiff has a huge advantage over sean sweesom who i think has been cut by about 11 teams. in general, i think the steelers have the edge because i think roth less berger has the edge or flacco. >> i say this is a "hide the women and children's" game. they will beat the living crap out of each other because that's the way they play, and i love the way joe flacco played last week. he was a question mark for me coming into the play-offs this year because he had won all his play-off games on the road but they weren't great games. for the first time-- and i think peter would agree with me-- we saw a great defensive performance against a kansas city team that hadn't turned the

ball over the but 14 times all year longs, forced five turnovers and joe flacco became the quarterback i think we all thought he could become and you saw a complete white-wash of the kansas city chiefs. if he plays like that they will beat the steelers by at least a touchdown. >> rose: the steelers play well on the road. >> they do. this will be a nasty-- i mean, this will be-- charlie, this is what football is all about. it is in your face, trash talking, physical. and it's going to come down to, as peter said, a field goal, and i do like billy cundiff better, much like he does. >> rose: peter, in the end it will be decide by a field goal, you think? >> yeah, i think it will be close. i have pittsburgh by a touchdown. boomer's got baltimore by a touchdown. it's going to be a close game. every one of these games is a field goal game at the two-minute warning. i had-- kind of had my choifs games to cover, and i got selfish. i picked the ravens and steelers this weekend.

>> rose: selfish meaning what, because you-- >> selfish, that's the game i really want to see. >> rose: you'd rather see that game than the patriots and jets? >> i get to see all of them. >> he gets to pick which one he goes to, listen, this is a game i think is going to be the closest. to me, the most interesting game of the week is the packers at the falcons because the falcons are the number one seed in the n.f.c., and the packers all of a sudden found the running game last week with their rookie and you had a quarterback, aaron rogers, who his last eight games has thrown 19 touchdowns and two interceptions, 70% completion, nine yards per attempt. he is finally playing the position the way that we all thought he could play the position and that is the team i would be worried about playing. >> rose: peter? >> i would agree. i totally agree, charlie. the packers, even though they're the sixth and final seed in the national football conference,

they were my choice to get to the super bowl at the start of these play-offs, and the two things in boom-- boomer mentioned, starts the young running back-- the last time falcons and the packers played, the packers' running game was nonexistent. the running backs only ran for 26 yards. starks ran for 123 in philly last week. they finally have a running back to be able to take some pressure off aaron rogers. the matt line, the atlanta quarterback, only threw four inkpleezs. he had probably the best game of his young career. those two things, i don't see the falcons being able to shut down green bay's running game. >> and don't see matt ryan being able to be perfect this time. >> and the only other thing i will say about this game, and it's a little hiccup for the green bay packers-- when they have a bad play happen, like

james jones dropping a touchdown pass that would have been easy against the first half against the eagles last week, they tend to allow that to overcome that, they tend to use a time-out, and if you watch them as closely as i have watched them over the last five weeks, that's the one bugaboo i say about a young football team. their defense is good enough. their offense is good enough, and lo and behold they now have a running game so watch out for the green bay packers. >> rose: and the bears versus the sea hawks? >> matt hasselbeck probably played the best game. his life in seattle shocking the saints. he threw four or five deep because that could not have been thrown any better. so now you just look at that and say if he does that again, they've got a great chance to win the game. but, you know, what are the chances that you can have the best game of your life two years in a row-- or two weeks in a row? i like chicago. >> rose: how do you explain the best game of your life? >> boomer, explain it, explain it. >> i've had a few of those

games. you wake up. you're a human being. you could be a tennis player, a golfer. and all of a sudden, you go out there and shoot 61. you shoot 60. maybe you win your tennis match. it just happens. that's why we still all have to play the game. >> rose: if you look back at the best games you've played in your career, you felt good in the morning or not? >> you know, it was kind of interesting, the best game i ever played, my first eight passes, three i think were intercepted, and i almost got benched by my head coach. i said you bench me now, we're fighting on the sidelines and i went on to throw for 523 yards and four touchdowns. you just never know when it's going to happen. i will say seattle's defense was ripped apart bee dree brees last week, throwing a play-off record 39 completions for over 400 yards and two touchdowns. jake cutler is looking at that film going i can't wait to get out there on the field against the seattle defense. the defense is not going to be

good enough to keep them close in the game. >> rose: a blow-out? >> i think it's a blow-out. >> i'm sure peter feels the same way. i think it's definitely a blowout and i think chicago is going to play green bay in the n.f.c. championship game. >> i agree, but i think this game is going to be a little bit closer because i don't trust chicago's offensive line to keep cutler clean. i like chicago to win. i think if will be a little closer. >> rose: talk to me about the run marchand lynch did. >> that was, i think, all in all especially considering when it happened, in the clutch point, it basically locked up, you know a huge upset in nfl play-off history. i mean, that, to me-- i'm not going to say it is the best run in nfl history, but i'm going to say it's most clutch run in nfl history. and to me, when eight guys have a chance to tackle you, it's got to be in competition for the best run of all time. >> it could be one of the best

trades made in t midst of a season because he start the season as a starting running back for the buffalo bills and they picked him up because they meed a running back in the worst way out there and it came at the most opportune time. there's no question about that. eight or nine broken tackles to seal the game and to upset the new orleans saint, the defending champion, that's pretty cool stuff. >> rose: let me take a look at it. here it is one more time. >> look at this run! what a run! >> he's dancing his way to a touchdown! >> rose: i mean, what's stunning about it is of the stiff arm, too. you have ever seen a stiff arm better than that gigave peter back in the locker room. he used to work for the "cincinnati enquirer" when i played for the bengallies and he asked all the tough questions about the relationship with my head coach and i gave the stiff

arm. >> rose: you have seen a better stiff arm than, that peter? >> i haven't, and i think the amazing thing is you don't practice stiff arms now. i go to training camps and you never see that. i mean, that is a natural thing that you just had to do. the amazing thing, it wasn't just a stiff arm. it's like he tossed him aside. and that, to me, that really made that run special. >> rose: brett farve is out of the game now, retired, going to stay retired, not coming back? boomer? >> he's not coming back. there's no way. after all the stuff that he went through this year both on the field and off the field, i think it's time to hang them up, and peter knows this, i have great respect for brett the football player. the fact that he would show up every single game in the first game that he actually played in the nfl, he replaced don mckoswki against my cincinnati bengals back in 1992 and led them to a fourth quarter comeback. the next game he start against the pittsburgh steelers and

didn't miss a game until this season. that, i take my hat off to and give him great respect. >> rose: was it hard to leave? >> you know, it all depends on what you're leaving. if you're leaving $20 million behind, yeah, it's hard to leave. if you're leaving the cincinnati bengals and they're paying you half a million dollars it's not hard to say good-bye. >> rose: i need to understand-- >> charlie, the -- >> yes? >> charlie, the two guys who hurt brett farve this year, one from the buffalo bills and one for the chicago bears, both those guys are, in essence, within 18 months in age of his daughter, brittany. i mean, it's-- he's playing with kids who, you know, are, you know, his daughters' age. it's time to go. >> rose: does cam newton look like a pro quarterback to you? >> physically he does. andrew luck is a sure-fire lock. when he comes out of sanford he is a plok and he will be easily

the first pick in the draft next year when he decides to come out and i applaud his decision to stay in stanford another year. cam newton has all the gifts. the question is-- and all the young quarterbacks who come out the gifts-- do they love the game of football? do they really want to work at being great at their craft? all of the guys at the top of the food chain right now love the game of football. they're junkies. they want to watch film. they want to learn how to do better. the question is does cam newton possess that and only time will tell. >> rose: i say this all the time boomer, interviewing as many people as i have here for last 19 years, the one quality that distinguishes those people who in a sense get to the top-- whatever it is, whether it's science or business or technology or sports-- it's just what you just said-- they just love the idea and have the passion to make any sacrifice necessary-- >> to be the best. >> rose: to fulfill the passion. >> that's exactly right. >> rose: and you can see that "x" factor at play when you get

to know them, right, peter? >> you're right, charlie. i'd say one thing about what boomer said about young quarterbacks. when i saw matt ryan at the scouting combine in indianapolis when he was about to come out i said to his agent at the end of the night eye interviewed him at 11:15 at night after he'd done 100 things during the day and he came into the room for the interview and he had on a gray suit, a blue button of down collar and some beautiful. loafers, and we sat there for about an hour and talked and i looked at his agent and i said, "i've not seen a kid am as prepared to the scouting combine or prepared for his rookie year in the nfl since peyton manning and he will leave no stone unturned to be the greatest quarterback he can be-- maybe not the greatest quarterback of all time-- and that's what you're talking about. i left there and said give me

matt ryan on my team. >> rose: thank you very much, peerkt as always. >> okay, you're welcome. >> thank you, charlie. thanks for having us on. >> bernard henri-levy is here, a philosopher, journalist and a few years ago began a conversation with michelle welbeck. their six months of letters are collected in this book, "public enemies, dueling writers" became a bestserl in france and europe and i'm pleased to have b.h.l. back at this table. "public enemies" means what? it means that we are-- we were enemies when the book began. we were. different position. he is a christian. i'm a jew. he a republican. i'm a liberal. he's a conservative, i'm a democrat. and we decided to discuss in a

fair way, without hatred, without poison in a civilized way. this is a principle of the book-- how two enemies can exchange words, can quarrel, debate without making war to each other. >> rose: it begins with a phone call or an e-mail. >> it gain gwan in a very funny way, yes. i was at home sunday afternoon, and i receive a text from michelle wallbeck and he tells me he is at the edge of finishing with life. >> rose: no reason to live. >> i text him back and i tell him, maybe you decide, but let's have dinner first. we have dinner.

and i said-- i asked him what happened? he tells me i'm despaired because this and his wife, he had maybe a problem, somebody else, or his dog who is not so well, too. and last but not least, he told me there is noblest to debate with in this country. so my reply was, your wife, i cannot did anything. your mistress even less. your dog-- but debate. >> rose: i can do. >> maybe i can do. and this way began-- we decided every night, not for publication but for fun, for the interest of the thing, to exchange letters. it is an old-passioned way to debate. nobody exchanges wlerts nowadays as you know. people speak. people shout, people go on tv. people scream at each other,

even chronicle men and congress women, and sometimes with tragic consequences, but change letters taking time to develop an argument, to prove if your point in lawyer way, this is seldom done today and this is what we decided to do. >> rose: characterize him for me who he was. who did you find? >> i knew him by cliche as we all know each other -- >> and he knew you by cliche. >> and he knew me by cliche. and the beginning of the book is one cliche in front of the other and in the process of the book, the cliche breaks, and the image becomes more complex, which means more precise. your image becomes precise, becomes accurate, when it is complex.

so the boy of the french letters is probably one of our if not our best writer in france. the cliche was he had a big trial with some organizations because he said once he had drunk maybe too much, and he said a very bad thing about. -- politically uncorrect word about islam, and he was sued and had a big trial. these belong to his cliche. also, he is very conservative. and we tried to-- to break each other's cliches. >> rose: he did not believe in action. >> i believe in commitment. he does not believe in commitment. i believe that if you have a little fame, you have to-- you have the duty to give it back to

the others and to transform it into deeds and into acts for the others. he believes the contrary. he's an egoivity. he believes that when i go to darfur or south sudan, it's worth nothing or maybe for bad reasons, i believe they have to do it. so this is one of our. divorce, yes. the question of commitment-- i believe in public slekt convictuals, i believe to be a republican is something. he believes in pure literature. >> rose: he quotes the famous maxxum that better an injustice than disorder, which you violently disagree with,. >> of course, of course. for me, one injustice is a scandal." for example, there are some people who say why do you care

about one single iranian woman condemned to stoning to death, stoning. it is just one woman. it is just one injustice. why would you care? for me, this woman is the, in a way, the center of the world. >> rose: what impact double you have as you go to these different places to make the case in the public? >> it depends. it depends , if we had not rang the bell. if we had not tried to-- public opinion, she. would be dead since last july. she would be dead with the face

turned into a pulp. >> rose: do you believe she'll be stoned? >> i believe now that she will not-- i pray-- while i say it, and i hope i'm not saying the wrong thing-- but i think she will not be stoned, no, because of this public opinion movement, because you have some women and some men all around the world who believe that an injustice is much worse than the disorder to take this. we quarrel a lot. welback thinks disorder is worse. i think injustice is the worse. >> rose: the series of exchange of letters begins with the fact that he talks about your public image and his public image and all of that. and then you come back to the point of saying, perhaps this conversation should focus on why there's so much hatred, that that ought to be the subject of our dialogue, not how we're

perceived because how we're perceived matters little. >> yes. look at america today. this-- this atmosphere of hatred this poison which you feel in the public debate on one side, and you saw what happened in arizona, the arizona killings. so of course you have-- hatred is something you breathe the air and the role of intellectuals, of writers should be to cool down the quantity of hatred. this is what i think. this is one of the reasons yes we made this book, to show how you can be of very different opinions. you can disagree on everything, and nevertheless, trow main sweet, to remain civilized, and to move your own position.

i move them some points. >> rose: what did you move on? -- we had a strong discussion about moscow and russia. >> rose: he likeses post-soviet russia. >> exactly, and i begin to tell me for me post-soviet russia is something terrible. when we began the discussion, russia is a country where you had journalists shot dead in the entrance of their house. so-- and high dares to convince me that russia might be in the process of joining the process of civilized nation.

i couldn't is believe-- that putin is far from being a democrat, of course. i convinced him probably about jewishness, what it means-- to be a jew. what is the real metaphysical meaning of being a jew. >> rose: what does it mean for you? >> what it means for me, what i try to explain to welbeck is that to be a jew means you have an old school official rabbies in eastern europe who say the following: god created the world then he withdrew from the world, and he left it to mankind. and the man and woman have the duty with words-- deeds and

words-- prayers and letters to build some columns of letters, who are like the architecture of the world, which prevents the world from dekag, from falling, from falling apart. this is what the most-- the path... teaches to you. that words are the very thing which keeps the world together. without words, without letter, without a reason to prayer, the world should fall into dust again, should be decreated. what jewishness teaches us, there is a creation of the world and there could be the de-creation of the world, and that only man can prevent creation to turn into

de-creation. on this point. >> -- he went probably to the place in the world where he's sure to have the least people to speak with and to speak in french. >> rose: so at the end of this 23 letters, do you think you gave him-- or helped him understand a reason to live? did you restore some passion in him because of the nature of exchange, that there was purpose for him intellect? >> it would be very presumptious of me to say that. what i can say and what one can

perceive in the course of the book, yes, is that the book begins in the very despair and pessimistic tone, and it finishes in another way. for example, welback is convinced that not only that he has a pack running after him and trying to prevent him from writing. he even believes that society is made for that. the condition of welback is, question, what is a society? rely: society is this which prevents artists to exist. i'm not completely in agreement with that. and maybe i convince him a little on that, that that situation-- my opinion in the

book is that artists are always stronger than the bank. artists, writers, regimes, or like me, maybe, are always stronger and survive the mob when the mob is against them. >> rose: what about the president's words after tucson? did you think those words were the perfect pitch? >> i think he had exactly the necessary words at this precise moment of your history. you are-- you, american people at a crucial moment for sure, and i think that barack obama found the words calling for union, reconciliation, common values. he refound the world, by the way of his very beginning, by the convention-- and of course, yes,

on one side, you have some political-- who speak about blood libels. and on the other side you have barack obama, who speaks of civic union. it's exactly the contrary. >> rose: there has been too much bad rhetoric on all sides. there's not one place that's owned too much of angry rhetoric? >> probably. >> rose: and the president is in the middle of all that. >> probably. what is sure is that you-- america is a pragmatic country. america is a country where it was preconceived that ideologies do not exist or that-- you lead, in america, in the illusion that are you safe of ideologies. ideologies were europe

and... today, ideologies are coming in america. this is a new stage in your history. ideology is coming. systematic thoughts. and so on, and one has to learn how to deal with that. we know that in europe since two centuries how to deal with ideologies who can kill again. ideologies are organized speeches which can justify, legitimize.... >> rose: this book is called "public enemies: dueling writers take on each other and the world." eliot spitzer earned the nickname "the sheriff of wall street" while she was new york's attorney general. he was elected new york's governor with the largest maggin in the state's history. in the spring of 2008 spitzer

fell from grace after the "new york times" revealed his patronage of a paid escort agency. two days after the story broke, spitzer resigned from office. >> i do not believe politics in the long run is about individuals. it is about ideas, the public good, and doing what is best for the state of new york. but i have disappointed and failed to live up to the standard i expected of myself. i must now dedicate some time to regain the trust of my family. >> rose: there is a new documentary called "client 9." it charts eliot spitzer's reversal of fortune. here is the trailer. >> we knew information would come down hard on us if we ever stumbled which is why the downfall was so shocking. >> when i assumed office, which was january of 1999, investment bankers were-- to use tom wolf's great fwraz-- masters of the universe. >> c.e.o.s began to take everything they could.

>> they literally were terrified of that guy coming after them. >> the mystery call girl is ashley dupree. >> cheers erupted as word spread of governor spritzer's stunning downfall. >> this man really intended to destroy me. ♪ new york, new york ♪ >> for $30,000 overnight, it doesn't feel like prostitution. >> he showed up clearly trying not to be recognized. >> joe bruney hired the country's most notorious dirty trickster. >>. they told us to look at client 9.

>> the governor felt like he was under surveillance. >> they hired p.r. firms to go after spitzer. >> the man's entire life is a lie. >> these are the guys who got us to the brink of disaster. >> all sorts of rumor bringing me down. i brought myself down. >> this is a war. ♪ new york, new york. >> rose: i am pleased to have. alex gibney back at this table. welcome. >> glad to be back. you are turning out the documentaries, my friend. >> kids in column. got to keep working. >> rose: he said, "i brought myself down." is he right? >> this is a film about embracing contradictions and it is true that eliot spitzer brought himself down. on the other hand, the way he was outed is instructive, both because of the venom, i think of

his enemies and their explicit in his downfall and i think in the way the department of justice behaved in this case which in my opinion was outrageous. >> rose: why was it outrageous? >> well, let's look at it this way. the department of justice never goes after prostitution cases. particularly they have a guideline in the office that they never go after johns. they never brought charges against eliot spitzer. they brought charges against a young, 22-year-old woman running an escort service. and when they filed the affidavit of charges, it's very instructive. they have a couple of sentences on the clients, client one through eight get a couple of sentences. client 9 gets five pages and in those pages are all sorts of clues about who this character is. in my view, while it's probably overly simplistic to say what, they were doing was conducting an investigation in order to

manage a leak, which is what happened. because we also know in addition to the affidavit, somebody from the investigation was not only calling the "new york times" but also giving leaks and hits to the "albany times" to tv outlets. there was an f.b.i. agent who went up to see spitzer's security detail a few days before he was outedly in the "new york times." so there was a lot of talk. it was-- it was twasn't just a leak. it was like a -- >> why... against eliot spitzer? >> we don't know. all we can do is speculate. fs interesting-- i mean, eliot spitzer made a lot of enemies. there was no doubt about it. he was a unique character in the sense he was a liberal democrat who punched back. he was a law and order liberal democrat so he made a lot of enemies, both on wall street and

i think also in the federal government. he was also being talked about as a possible president calcon tender. >> rose: why did he do it? >> i think that's an answer-- a question without a good answer and i think it's a mystery. i think it was partially hubris. i think partially it's an old story. i mean, he's not the first powerful politician to have strayed, if you want to call it that. but, you know, the amazing thing really sell that he's -- >> he paid a lot of money for it and it was different from having an affair. >> me had a rationale for it-- very "spitzer like." at one point he said if i had an affair, i'd still be governor but i might not be married. and all things considered i think things worked out. ening some way he felt the sex he was going to have was going to be transactional and preserve

the emotional relationship with his wife. >> rose: is that what he said? >> yeah, it is what he said. but that's a kind of classic compart memt mentallization that i think ultimately broke down. i think this is not unique to eliot spitzer-- a lot of people tell lives to themselves or believe they can get away with things they can't possibly get away with. and there becomes a kind of peculiar-- i don't know what to call it-- it's a kind of deception that takes place. you can somehow after hours go, see, escorts on your own dime and that's okay. >> rose: the amazing thing about something like this you think somebody along that change is going to talk. >> yes.

and even money important if you're a guy like eliot spitzer bucking very powerful people-- he knew to some extent he was being followed and targeted and people were dogging him. he told his p.r. guy, if we ever so much as sfum bell, they're going to kick us in the nuts. it was more than a stumble. it was a freefall. it's hard to understand why he thought that mobe would be watching. there was. >> rose: angelina, who was different. >> that's right. >> rose: he wanted to see her and she rejected that idea of-- >> well, something peculiar happened. eliot spitzer had a plan, a plan in his mind that he was going to indulge his desire in a way that wouldn't threaten his marriage. some of the exports complained

because the exchanges were very transactional. >> rose: you do that for me, i'll do this for that. >> in this world, in the escort world there's an implicit agreement. it's not just sex. it's not like a cook or the street corner. they call it the girlfriend experience. >> rose: you're paying for andship. >> they're paying sex but also companionship. in this case he ran into somebody, angelina who had seen him once and not enjoyed it very much and saw him a second time and she said, wait a minute. if we're going to do anything here we're going to have a little chit-chat-- that's the phrase she used, "chit-hat." spitzer responded to that and they fan to have a kind of

relationship and that's when he requested her. this is a woman who hadn't been well known until the film. we had to have a device for cutting her in the film because she is. -- i found her-- she agreed to talk on condition we not reveal her identity, so ditwo very long ought audio taped interview and hired an actress to portray her. we. -- that's what i wanted to do because she was a very unique person, very unlike the stereotype of an escort or hooker. >> rose: attractive woman. >> engaging woman pim liked layer lot. and she saw the us a lot about the federal investigation. it was very interesting. >> rose: what happened to her? >> she was not prosecuted but interviewed at great length by the f.b.i. and department of

jest. a lot of investigation, a lot of question of her related to very specific special sexual details that didn't have anything to do with the crime but this is one of the clues. it had a lot to do with embarrassing eliot spitzer, if you could get details like that it would be very embarrassing for him and very hard for him to recover. what are some of the other questions that intariqed you about this. this isa a long way to-- there are different crimes in the film and the crime of passion and the scandal about which we know-- we think we know so much. the scandal turned out to be very different than what i thought. there is much bigger crews than i thought and had an spakt on society. and those are the crimes on wall street. they continue. and i think that one of the

questions the film asks is are these scandels a kind of smoke screen to blind us to the crimes we had shhh really be paying attention to, the crimes on wall street? in some ways it's a long way away from-- one of the interesting things about enron people forget about is that didn't happen in isolation. there was a lot of prominent well-known business banks that were making a lot of money off enron that got off scott free. >> what does spitzer believe his future is? >> that's a hard one. i think you'd have to ask him. but i do know this. he desperately, desperately wants back in politics. i think he looks back and can't

even imagine how he could have been so stupid to have done what he did because he was born and bread to have a role and has a uniquely potent understanding of the political economy in this country and feels he can play a very forceful part and yet he took it away from himself. whether it was a political hit or not, he surprided the weapon and ammunition. i think he desperately wants a way to get back in. whether he will or not i believe depends on us. >> but you think he believes. >> i think he believes he may have that shot, that there may be a wray back. exactly how, i don't know. what did f. scotts fitzgerald say, there are no second acts? >> rose: take a look at this. it's a remarkable story of one of the players in this draum,

eliot spitzer's wife, qhuz whose dignity was rather remarkable. here it is. >> did you learn something about your wife that you didn't know in this-- as a result of this experience. >> i wish i hadn't needed to learn it but the learned that the depths of forgiveness are deeper than ourp effort to be powerful. >> rose: that says it all, doesn't it? >> it does. that's a very moving moment. a lot of people were very hostile towards silda at that moment. >> a lot of women said why didn't you let him-- >> that decision happened very much on the spur of the moment. and i give her a tremendous amount of credit. you know, -- marriages are

complicated. marriages are personal. and they decided to stay together for very personal reasons but she's shown a lot of dignity, and i think it's remarkable. >> rose: i wanted to ask him why he did it, and he said to me it was about politics and the high that politician is and the passion of politician and you're traveling-- >> power is the ultimate aphrodisiac. >> rose: that's one of the answers. >> it is. i think it is one of the answers. i have a kind of rogue gallery. he's not the first one to have been unfaithful to his wife. >> rose: thank you. client 9. alex gibney.