>> charlie: amy chaw and gita wirjawan when we continue. funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: last year we took dozens of trips using membership rewards points to meet with the farmers that grow our sweet potatoes and merchants that sell our product. we've gone from being in 5 stores to 7,500. booming is using points to make connections that grow your business.

additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> charlie: amy chua is here. she's a professor at yale law school and author of a critically acclaimed books on global instability. her latest book is "battle hymn of the tiger mother" how she raised her two daughters using what she called strict chinese methods. since it's released the book has ignited fierce debate. an except because published in the wall street journal. readers called her everything from a monster to a savvy

provocateur. welcome. >> thanks so much for having me charlie. >> charlie: we first met at yale law school and we had lunch with other people. to think that this book would have brought you extraordinary attention beyond any class, beyond any other book, beyond anything you've ever written for any law school journal. >> it's ridiculous. >> charlie: how had that began. how did this book come into being. >> this book actually grew out of a crises. it really was very personal. i myself was raised by very strict chinese immigrant parents who came to the united states in 1960's, they were very poor and they raised my three younger sisters and me in a very strict way. i mean -- >> charlie: you have here that you demonstrate in terms of how you raised your children they would have disagreed with. >> they were stricter. far stricter.

the story was when i won second place and i took my parents to the awards ceremony and afterwards my father said never ever disgrace me like that again. but somebody said one best all around student. when i tell my friends that people say oh my gosh he sounds horrible. just the opposite, charlie. my dad is my idol. the message i took from that was you're goofing off, i believe in you, you can do better. and he was right. to this day, my parents are my greatest source of strength. >> charlie: is there anything that you look at your life today and say i wish had been different, i wish i had a chance to have this kind of exposure, develop these kinds of personal skills. >> no. it's the opposite. i feel that i have all the choices i have today, you know. i can write i love my job, i love my students. i can write crazy books like this that get me in trouble. i can really do anything i want because my parents in some ways developed this work ethic in me, they were very strict.

in other words, in a way they were restraining my choices in some way when i was younger, i felt like they gave me the world. >> charlie: the worse thing that after happened they told you never to take them to a ceremony where you came in second. was the that the worse thing you ever did. >> pretty much. >> charlie: that's not so bad. >> well they used harsh words, i got in trouble, we had to have total respect for parents. some of the things i've gotten in trouble for. you don't talk back to your parents. it was a very different generation. but no, i have very loving parents. >> charlie: that seems mild compared to what you did. for example telling lou if she did something she had to stand out in the cold. >> charlie, this book is really misunderstood. when i wrote it, do you know what my model was. i had hell fire and dave edgar, it's supposed to be funny. i'm supposed to be a character and my two daughters are a hero.

that story for example, my daughters get all the best lines because they deliver all the best lines. so famous story, the people say amy chua, i destroyed her daughter's doll house. you read the book. i was sitting at the piano and said if you don't do this right i'm going to take your doll house and donate it to the salvation army. do you know what she said. she said what are you still doing here mommy, i thought you were going to the salvation army. they call my bluff every time. >> charlie: what you're saying is your intent with this book was to do what? tell a story? >> well i didn't finish. i wrote it in a moment of crises because things were going along good until lulu my second daughter rebelled at the age of 13. she really did. suddenly everything was different. she was alienated, angry. i think it's universal, it's part of teenagers. but it was tough on me. my sister got leukemia and had to have a bone marrow transplant. when it rains it mowers but

after one terrible, one terrible incident in russia where my daughter said terrible things. >> charlie: she said i hate you. >> i hate you. but yes, in our household that's a lot. she threw a glass and she said i hate the violin. >> charlie: what's the point of that story. >> the point of that story is it was pivotal. and literally it was pretty much cold turkey after that. the next day i got up, went to my computer and even though i usually have writer's block, the first book took me eight years to write. this time the words just more out. and i showed every major to both daughters and my husband and it was tough to piece it back together. so the genre of this book is pretty funny. it's supposed to be self mocking. >> charlie: when you read the book now, are you recommending a, as you see it, the best way to raise your children. are you looking at the way you do. >> i am not. >> charlie: you're not. you're not suggesting to anyone that this is a better way to raise your children. >> let me put it this way. my husband was raised by the most opposite kind of family,

just do anything you want. he came up right. i teach law students. some of them have very strict parents. they are vibrant, creative. i also have students who are raised by completely different kind of parents. and i really believe there are many ways of being a good parent, you know. now, it is also the case, i guess why i published the book is i don't think that this kind of parent thing should be closet practice that you have to hide it. people say it's extreme parenting. millions of people raise their kids this way. i've had e-mails from people from nigeria and korea and india. this is how we do it. it doesn't always work. that's why it's not a formula but for many many people, it's a great way of raising strong kids with a lot of self-esteem. >> charlie: tell me what your philosophy is about raising your two children. >> i think that the parents' job is to believe in their child more than anyone else. more than the child herself. and i would say high

expectations. >> charlie: if they don't do as well as you expect them to do, you criticize them and you make them feel bad so they will work harder next time. >> that's one way of putting it. i think it's high expectations coupled with unconditional law. charlie if you don't get the a or win the prize, i don't love you, bad parenting. that's not what i did. but i think it's if they say this is my best and this is what i came up with. i sometimes don't believe them. no, you did not do your best. >> charlie: you did not work hard enough. >> and i'm going to be there with you. i don't think you can just say do better and just leave. i invested a lot of time in my girls. i know my girls, i listen to them, i know their personalities. i did pull back with the second one. >> charlie: how are they different. >> sophia was an easy kid. if he end of the book she said mom people are going to think that this was imposed on me when

in fact i went along with it by my own choice. she's a very strong girl. my second daughter came out saying no, every word out of her mouth is no, connecting and screaming. >> charlie: did you finally realized that you could not mold her in the way that you wanted to, lulu. >> i did realize that i could not mold her in exactly the way, but i still think it's my role as a parent to make sure that she makes the right decisions. as you get older, as they've gotten older i've loosened up. i'm happy i restrained their choices when they are reyoung. >> charlie: what does that mean, restrain their choices. you wouldn't let them sleep over. >> i think, yes, i think sleep overs especially as kids into teenage years is overrated. they are supposed to be socializing and exploring and it's going over and on the internet for five hours. >> charlie: steve collins wrote about your book and basically made this point that there is something valuable about hard work and learning but

there's also something valuable about developing social skills. and in things like sleepovers, you learn to work in a group dynamic and that's important. you reject that piece by david brooks. >> he said i -- >> charlie: but what, but wrong about the importance of socializing. >> no. wrong about the role of sleepovers in developing those skills. >> charlie: and it's about achievement too. how does one develop the skills to achieve and how does one achieve. and what is the best motivation and the best training to do that? >> for me happenness is the most important. >> charlie: where does happiness come through in this book. >> i think if you read it properly, you see that -- >> charlie: read it properly to find the happiness. >> no, that it's really, i have had e-mails from people who do things very differently. they say do you know what i read this and i could see it's first and foremost a love story for your girls. that's what it is. >> charlie: they have come to say very good things. >> we're very close. we're very close. i think we all want happiness

for our kids charlie. i think we all want to raise strong happy kids and we have different ideas about how to do that. that's probably not one right answer. >> charlie: tell the story of lulu who you wanted to play the piano and the violin or the violin and she wanted to play -- >> yes. >> charlie: it took you a long time. >> yes, probably too long. she, and part of the reason it was confusing is she was a beautiful violin player. it looked like she hated it. >> charlie: she played at carnegie hall. >> she's a concert master and i have to say, she was very emotionally beautiful music, musician, both of them are. but she didn't like practicing and that's why it was so painful. because i could is he she loved the violin when she played it, you know. she just loved -- >> charlie: if you said to her don't you want to be great, don't you want to be something, she would reject that. that's not what i want to do or be, she would simply say, i may like to be that mom, but i don't

want to pay the price to be that. >> well, it was more i want to make my own choices. i want to make my own choices. now she plays tennis. it was hard for me playing tennis at 13 because i felt that wasn't maybe the best thing. but it was the best thing. i was wrong. she loves tennis and i like to think that she actually applies some of the things i instilled in her. work ethics. doesn't give up. but it's her choice. >> charlie: and do you buy into the idea that i didn't. the best thing that can ever happen to you in life is to find those things that you're passionate about. >> totally, totally. >> charlie: if you can do that, then you have found one of the great secrets of life. >> absolutely, absolutely. here's where i might disagree a little bit. i think you can tell a young child who is six or seven, pursue your passions today. charlie they're just going to -- the passion's going to be facebook and video games, right. >> charlie: so you have to --

did she end up loving being a musician. >> she's not going to be a professional musician but she loves the piano. >> charlie: and she practices hard. >> she does. three hours a day. lulu came back to the violin after i got off her back she quit and came back. she doesn't play at the same level but she loves it again. >> charlie: are you okay with that. >> that's another reason i wrote the book actually. it's such a different creature than what people think, you know. i mean writing the book was great for my family, actually great for us. it was sort of putting the pieces back together. i think my daughters understand me a lot more. when i showed them every page, they had experienced it. >> charlie: you read it as you wrote it. >> they just thought why are you so mean, why won't you let me do this. >> i think in some ways seeing it from my perspective. this is hard for me it's miserable. i wish i could go have a glass of wine with my friends honey said i have to stand here and supervise the violin playing. i think it was a very good

experience for my family actually. kind of like recreating it. >> charlie: are you convinced that they, it's too early to tell, will raise their children in the same way they raise theirs. >> they were recently asked this. i was terrified, what are they going to say. to my surprise they both said we would be much more liberal socially. more freedom but they both said they would be strict parents. >> charlie: what does that mean strict parents. >> that they would actually have high expectations for their kids and not let them give a up. >> charlie: there's also this, another criticism, going to the heart of interesting lessons about children and parenting. the notion if in fact you are hammering at this, you are not giving themself themself es -- them self-esteem and failure does not maybe. >> maybe if you don't convey love that happens. >> charlie: how did you convey love. >> i don't know. there's probably, i think that my kids know that i love them.

>> charlie: how do you think they know. clearly they must know. >> i tell them i love them all the time, snuggle around, hug around a lot. the same way anybody else conveys it. >> charlie: if they disappointed you in school, you would tell them what? >> well again, i think of the message i don't love you if you are not good enough. that's terrible. >> charlie: because you do love them. that's a given. >> you have disappointed me so therefore i love you less. i think that's bad parenting. i don't think that's what i'm conveying. i think what i would like to think i'm conveying is i believe in you so much that i know that you can be excellent with hard work and i'm going to be in the trenches working with you. and i'm not going to let you give up, you know. that's how i think i'm conveying it. >> one of the conventional wisdoms which i suspect is less and less true, it is the notion that if in fact there's so much emphasis on rote learning, that you do not give space for the development of the power to be creative and innovative. >> do you know what i think? i think that's a false dichotomy.

i think in fact it's just not helpful, should we have the drilling and rote memorization or creativity. everybody knows like things like math and music, you need some basic skills first. >> charlie: you have to have the fundamentals. >> before you can do string theory. i think my dad is the most creative mathematician i know and of course you need the basics. same with music. you know i think you need to know how to to do vibratto. >> charlie: having said that, this is what people who would argue that point, point out to you. there haven't been that many nobel laureates from china. >> that's true too. >> charlie: all these years of a great civil information. >> yes. my previous book it's so funny, i actually argue that china cannot overtake the u.s. as a hyper power. >> charlie: because? >> because we have the best system for generating innovation and dynamism and creativity. >> charlie: we the united states. >> we the united states. >> charlie: do you still believe that. >> i do because a lot of that is

we're able to attract the best and brightest, immigrants from nigeria, jamaica, china. do you know what, a lot of these immigrants, charlie, parent the way i do. they are very strict. they are among the strictest parents in this country. their kids are raised in a tough way but a lot of those kids, not all of them but a lot of those kids come out to be vibrant, creative, dynamic resilient people. i think there's a consistency in my work. >> tell me what you think in your definition is the difference in the way to us taking this very conventional question, the way chinese parents raise their children because your parents were chinese and you're chinese. and the way americans to take i'm example or europeans raise their children. >> first i'm using the term chinese parenting loosely. i will say i think that western parents, not all of them, but many of them, although the europeans are different from

marines. i would say that western parents today are much more concerned about their children's self-esteem and psyche, they worry all the time. whereas i think sort of the chinese or tough immigrant approach, we assume strength rather than weakness in our children. and i think there's a lot to be said for that. what kind of a signal. >> charlie: you assume that they can take it. >> yes. >> charlie: and they can be prodded and they can be what? >> sure. but of course at the end, this is the end of my book, you've got to listen, you've got to know your kid. love has to come first and it's not working. but yes, basically i think that they can take it. i did raise my kids to be tough. and -- >> charlie: how did you raise them to be tough? >> well, if you come back -- my daughter came back with a math test. i hate math, i did badly. i'm bad at math. some parents will say don't worry you don't have to be good at math, you can be good at everything else. i said no way, i made practice

tests, i grilled her with a stopwatch. the next time she did really well. >> charlie: you drilled her with a stopwatch. >> for a whole week. the next test she did really well and today math is one of her favorite subjects. >> charlie: there's an american term developed called tough love. is this what you believe in, akin to tough love. >> i want to be back to this chinese-american thing. at the end of my book, the last scene is i'm in a frenzy and saying do you think our founding fathers had shapeovers, do you think thomas jefferson had sleepovers. i think that our founding fathers had chinese values and my daughter says mommy i hate to tell you this but if our founding fathers have them then they are american values. and that's really what the book is about. it's not china versus the west. in some ways the current mode of parenting of coddling and almost parenting out of fear, you know. i think it's actually relatively recent. i think it's generational. >> charlie: there are many

people that will argue all the things that you talk about that you believe in as a parent and that you have taught your children a lot of very high profile elitest driven americans trying to get their kids in this city into the best schools. they are practicing the same thing you are, that it's not -- >> i think it's different. >> charlie: you do. >> well the hovering helicopter parent is totally different. i would never march in -- people who write their kids essays for them. >> charlie: i meant getting in the best school by making sure they just hammer into them all the kinds of things that they think in terms of how to take tests and everything else. >> i think there's a parallel -- >> charlie: it's a high pressure style. high pressure. >> i disagree. the kind of parenting i do is very much about the early child years. so when my daughter sophia went to high school she was on her

home. i never supervised her homework. she had a work ethic. she wrote her college applications. everybody else is very stressed out. i knew she was at a good place. >> charlie: at what point did you say you have earned my trust, you have earned my trust. and so therefore you come in when you think it's appropriate to come in. i'm not going to sit there with a stopwatch and saying you're late. >> earlier -- >> charlie: or punish you. >> 14 or 15. >> charlie: because you, what has been accomplished? >> they have already, they have the work ethic. my daughters can sit in one place and do homework for two hours. you know, when you mention the high pressure, i think there's something out of sync with our system. on the one hand, we have all. >> charlie: the american system. >> yes. we hear reports about our teen agers and i'm sympathetic, they're depressed on medication have to stay up until 2:00 in the morning, they have slow self-esteem and too much pressure. at the same time we have statistics where we're testing so badly, 25 out of 34 in math,

reading and science. put these things together, i think, do you know what i think, i think a lot of parent in the west are very ambivalent. when their kids are very young they say no pressure don't worry you're great. don't worry about it and then they hit high school and suddenly it's here's a college campus, here are the sat's you need and here's the college scores. i think it's shell shock. i think you should reverse it. if you instill these values into your kids when they're younger it's not so bad when they get to high school. >> charlie: how about these values. you say in here when you were in law school, in law school, one of the great law schools in the world, harvard law school, and now you teach at yale. when you were there, you pretty much took down what the professor said and metropolitanized -- memorized it. that's how you were as a student and you did very well at harvard law school. people would say what i would like to see is a mind that not only absorbs it but challenges

it, is skeptical about it, thinks about engaging, what they are being told in a very vigorous way. >> that's a great thing about america. my kids grew up with a hybrid household. when i went to law school i felt that oh my gosh i'm not good at this, at questioning authority. now it didn't take me so long to learn it. >> charlie: lulu knew that a long time ago. >> these are things that are great. >> charlie: how do you teach that and why are we good at that? questioning authority, being rigorous and skeptical about what you hear or about what you're told. >> you know charlie maybe we don't need to teach our kids that anymore. maybe it's already an american culture. every tv show out there is snappy back talk rebellious kids. maybe that's what you're naturally good at. we are a country, those are our roots, right? we have the american revolution. so in some ways i feel like what we need to as a nation maybe what's lacking now is going back a little bit more to, i don't

know, probably more traditional american parenting. don't make excuses. a little bit more focus and self discipline, you know. not so much just buy me more more more. mean some more respect for elders and authority. these are american values. striving for excellence, when has that not been an american value. >> charlie: how you turn out all about the kind of parenting you had or is it about something within you? >> i think it's both. i've learned that lulu just was the person that for the moment -- sophia too. but that doesn't mean logically that therefore parents can have absolutely no influence. i mean it's not black or white. that's what i think. i think parents still do have a role. people can go wrong, people can make bad decisions that are scarring, you know. and i sort of feel like my role as a parent, i don't want to be suffocating but i'm also proud that my girls haven't had to

learn from certain mistakes. >> charlie: and if your two daughters were sitting here which would have been a great show. if they were sitting here and i said to them, tell me what the value of your mother's parenting style was for you, what would they say? >> i think they would probably, i hope say that i instilled in them the value of hard work and didn't let them give up when they wanted to. they both wanted to give up and i think they would say i believed in them i think. >> charlie: would you ever tell them failure is okay. >> yes. oh, my father, when i was about 35, i was rejected from a job in california and i called up my father. something i knew my dad really wanted me to get. i called him up, this is the same guy who said second place, you're a disgrace. do you know what he said charlie, he said we're going out to celebrate. if these people can't -- >> charlie: if they don't get

you -- >> i think it's unconditional love, i really do. when you're a child it's about developing skills, arming them with a kind of center self confidence that no one can take away. >> charlie: how much of the perception of this book was sort of teed up by the wall street journal. >> everybody was calling it a parenting guide. why chinese mothers are superior. i never seen that headline, i would not have approved it because on the cover of my book it says the opposite. it says it's not that, it's about how i was humbled by a 13 year old. >> charlie: that's the perception that stalk about this book. it's basically saying chinese mothers are superior. >> it's been a lot of damage control. it's been a long road and that's why i've been out there. it's so much better now. i have to tell you now that people are actually reading the book, i am getting such wonderful e-mails from people who say these are american

values. they say it's not the violin or piano for me or i'm a single mm and i come home at seven. i also believe not just letting my child give up, having high expectations. you would be surprised. i've had very nice responses too. >> some people also raise, and this is generally not what you do or do not, this goes all the way to law school and business schools as well. how do you raise important questions about morals, values and ethics. >> this is an important question, and you know, i'm very lucky that my husband i think played an important role. he was the person that was mostly emphasizing independence, questioning authority. but also stressing right from wrong. so we were lucky to grow up in a hybrid household. we do raise these questions. >> charlie: he's jewish-american is he. >> yes. i think you're right by the way, i think a lot of immigrant families, like my own parents i think that might be a weakness

because you're so obsessed with your own family and survival and wanting to prepare your family that i think often that generation is not very civic-oriented. it's not very community-oriented. still good morals by the way, i mean, you know, there are a lot of good morals. begin, respect, honesty, hard work, don't blame others. but there's something br the maybe more civic aspect that can be lacking in that first generation. >> if you were writing this book today, what would you do different? >> i would do the wall street german excerpt different but i think about this book a lot. do you know it's funny. i could have made myself a lot more likeable in this book. you know, oh boy. and i wonder why -- >> charlie: and so the answer is? >> well, i like the book. you know i think it's much more complicated book than people understand. >> charlie: how so? >> it's full of contradictions. on the surface it talk about these rules. in chapter 3 i reveal i was disobeying my father. he says you have to stay at home

for college, live at home. i forged his signature and i pledged to one school people were talking about called harvard. after i got in my father went from anger to pride literally over night. he said you will marry a non-chinese over my dead body. you know, right now my husband and my father are the best of friends. there's a strong theme in favor of rebellion in the book. i actually think the book is very rebellious. it's written in an out law -- >> charlie: are you the outlaw. >> certainly the kind of parenting -- >> charlie: because you are what, threatening values. >> it's not mainstream. there's nothing about this book that's been received in this country as mainstream. it's just a different way of raising kids. >> charlie: let me go back to how you teach as a parent. where does morals and values other than the value of hard work and challenging your so. >> i think that part i was like any other westerner. always tell the truth, always

take responsibility. in fact in some ways i think this kind of method is better at taking responsibility. you know. i mean sort of don't blame mother, right. i don't know. i think that was sort of more conventional western because my husband teaches constitutional law and all of these questions about ethics. >> charlie: what are your siblings like. >> we're very close. i have three younger sisters. >> charlie: what do they say about this. >> completely supportive. i would never have published this book if not every member of my family extended would not have supported me. my young sister has down syndrome. she's writing her own memoir now. she says i can do this too and that's a great example. nobody expected my younger sister cindy to get a ph.d. but my mother did multiplication with her, she played piano with her and my sister works at

wal-mart and still plays the piano. she has great self-esteem and being the best person she's capable of being within her limits. >> charlie: is there anything that you think what this book represents, is there anything that it doesn't teach. is there anything that it doesn't cover? is there something missing that ought to be a part of parenting? >> well the book isn't intended to teach, right? it's not a parenting book. >> charlie: it's a memoir. you're telling your story and you draw whatever conclusions you want to from your story. >> yes. i would say that the things omitted, there are soil. and every family has their own values. some people are religious, some people believe in more community orientation. i value that and admire it. this is just my family story, it really is just my family story. >> and how will this change your life? >> well, it's been surreal. >> charlie: how has it been surreal. >> it's strange. i teach, i teach 80 wonderful

students international business transactions. it's a little weird but a lot of their parents have read this book. obviously it's, you know, the lives are very public now. there have been a lot of changes but i have to say my kids have been great about it and their community and their friends. >> charlie: you mean sophia and lulu. >> yes. >> charlie: when you look at the students in your class, is there a difference in terms of how they respond to those that were raised in the valley of this book and those that might have been raised what some people would consider traditional western ideas about parenting. >> i don't know. >> charlie: have you seen a difference in terms of these students, the way they -- >> certainly students from south asian families or nigerian families. >> charlie: they get the book. but how about in the way they are law students. >> you can't make a generalization, you really can't. my students are bright creative. it's absolutely not the case for

example that kids raised with more strict parents are in less creative or less independent or less happy. i just don't think you can generalize at all. >> charlie: whatever's the role of fun in raising children? >> it's got to be fun. i have one line in there. it's a joke. i say i was already at a disadvantage because i had a western husband who believed that childhood should be fun. it's a little bit tongue in cheek. >> charlie: but tongue in cheek meaning what. >> meaning that -- it's partly true. my husband was the one taking them to baseball games, making pancake breakfasts, going for hikes. >> charlie: you were at a disadvantage because you believed this ought to be part of their education. >> of course. i'm also so grateful that there was something helping create a happy household. but it's true. i was like five hours at a waterpark and they're going to injure their fingers. there was my role in the family. it really was. i am the person who always wanted to get back to practicing. >> charlie: when you look at the competition now that some people see between the united states and china, having to do with as you say test scores, having to do with how they do in

terms of international standards. how do you look at this and what the challenges for both china and the united states. >> this is really interesting. my book is also selling in china but it is being marketed in the exact opposite way. the title that they put on it is something like parenting by yale law professor, it's awful. but at first i protested but in china all the things that are provocative here are not provocative there. you know, of course you drill math and of course you don't do these shapeovers. so it's like we need to learn from the west. we need to give our kids more creativity, more independent mindedness. so i think the different cultures should be able to learn from each other. china is trying to learn from us. you know maybe americans we have our natural strength, it's kind of rebelliousness and questioning authority. maybe we need to reclaim some of these again traditional values. there is a question are we

raising a generation of americans who are the same kinds of americans that made this country great. i think that might be -- >> charlie: so the question you're raising is have we lost something. >> yes, i wonder in retrospect if that's not part of the -- >> charlie: i think it is. >> i keep wondering why this explosion. >> charlie: or the quality of our schools and a whole lot of other things and perhaps the quality of parenting. >> i felt the conversation was one that needed to happen and i was an accidental catalyst. because again how do people get about a story about one family. >> charlie: the conversation that needs to happen is what? define it for us. >> whether we have in some ways lost some of our traditional american values. of the things i feel i have to defend for people angry at me are things that surprise me. things that my father always said. these are american values, you know. striving to be excellent, you know. being tough on your kids so that they can be the best they can be. don't blame others, self

reliant. these are things that my parents, my dad hated the country he came from, you know. he came here because he said this is where if you work hard and get lucky, you can make it. like no other country. >> charlie: is he optimistic about the country he came from now. >> about china? actually, we're a rag to riches story. of course we have great pride in our heritage, you know. but i mean there's reasons that my mother came here. i revealed at the end of the book he's a big rebel also. >> charlie: he's like lulu. >> he's and he's a lot like me. i'm like him, let meet put it this way snoovment how much are you like lulu. >> a lot. >> charlie: she's like you that's what you say in the book. >> yes. >> charlie: the question always comes up because you have been through the fire and people as i said are talking about this book, talking about the ideas. even if they are making assumption that is not true about what you believe or what

you say. but has this changed or have you come to any different conclusions about things you wrote about because you have been in the center of debate? >> i've learned a lot of really great things about americans. >> charlie: it has not. >> it's changed in some ways my view about western parenting. i think i've learned that there are many many many western parents and a lot of strict western parents out there. it's funny for some people this is extremely shocking. i get e-mails saying this is how i do it. i'm from ohio. these are not surprising. >> charlie: i think it's universal too. >> yes. so that's been really interesting. >> charlie: i'll tell you a story and i say this to people all the time. probably this table where you're sitting at has been the subject of more conversations with more people five years, 20 years, five nights a week, 20 years,

with more people of achievement than any other table anywhere. i would assume. not once when i talk about the elements of achievement has anybody ever said to me i was smarter i was better looking, i had more social skills. they all said one thing to me, i worked harder. i was more passionate about it, i wanted it more. that's why i am who i am. >> i totally agree with that. i'm not surprised, i'm really not surprised. but of course people will work hard for different reasons. >> charlie: that's exactly right. there's no magic elixir for how do you produce that desire. >> exactly. some people are internally self motivated, some people are reacting against their parents. there is no one formula. >> charlie: it's great to have you here. take so much. >> thank you so much, charlie, it's always fun. >> charlie: indonesias an

asian success story hit hard by the 1997 financial crises and the overthrow of a dictator it has made an impressive recovery. the world's third largest dact see fastest growing after china and india. forecast gross of 7% and above in the coming years with a young population the second large else market of facebook and third largest for twitter. president obama haled indonesia, the most populous muslim nation for pluralism and religious tolerance. >> thank you so much, thank you everybody. >> charlie: joining me is gita wirjawan a former environment banker but chairman of the coordinating board. pleased to have him here as we move more into this fascinating country. welcome. great to see you. >> happy to be here. >> charlie: what's happened to indonesia. >> it's a combination of a number of things but it's quite surprising the way that it

turned out, you know. if you would have asked or anybody would have asked myself and many others in 9 8 or 99 whether or not indonesia was going to vulcanize or disintegrate, it would have been tough to disagree because at that time it was very gloomy. somehow i think we took a long term view in terms of what needed to be done economically. and politically. democratization at the early stage was painful, you know. going from the point of, you know, having one man say everything for everyone to, you know, the point of everyone saying everything about everything else. that was not an easy transition and that's sort of a freedom,

you know, entailed into certain thing that people are not very used to. but somehow i think as the economy turns around, as people learned about the democratization, i think we kind of like slowly but surely realized that it was going in the right direction. and i think it's in the last five or six years that we're sensing from a fiscal monetary and political standpoint i think we can be proud of with a we have gone through. >> charlie: corruption continues to be an issue. >> yes. >> charlie: why is it so hard. >> i think the, there is an admission that there is corruption in indonesia but what people have to understand better is that it's a long term game. it only took hong kong 30 years

to weed out corruption effectively and completely. it's only been six years since sby came on board, close to six years. >> charlie: this is the president. >> this is the president. >> charlie: sby is much easier to say. >> there is hundreds of people that have been put in jail in indonesia for corruption cases. and there is going to be a lot more people that are going to be put into jail for corruption. and that's what it takes. >> charlie: you got to be willing to take it on. >> you've got to be willing to take it on and it takes time. >> what's the economic model for the future? >> we have a lot of natural resources and our economy has been dependent on actual resources. >> charlie: and those prices have been pretty high. >> have been going up quite nicely. but the future of indonesia is

not one where i want my kids and grandkids to be, palm oil and all that. i think it's got to be a future where every citizen in indonesia can be doing something that's value additive. it's got to involve the vertical integration of the whole process. >> charlie: so you're saying your country wants you to be in the knowledge business. >> exactly. is that going to happen in the next six months? probably not. we've got to go through certain phases and first phase is to build the infrastructure, the hard and the soft. the soft certainly relates to education and healthcare. the hard is to roads, the hard stuff. then we've got to kick start our industrialization in a big way. that we have not done to be quite honest. we're not producing cars, carbines. >> charlie: your mission is to try to get industry to invest

in indonesia. >> correct. make sure the indonesian people learn and process. >> charlie: how is that coming? >> it's coming. we had a good year last year in terms of realized investments. about 55% growth compared to 2009. and it's starting to show. the numbers are starting to show in terms of where it's being deployed and it's being deployed into manufacturing areas, infrastructure and things that are actually going down stream from the typical natural resource up stream areas. and that's a good sign. and the other good sign is that money is being deployed more outside java because the tennation is to -- temptation has been to put money into java which has the motion people and

most structural facilities. now we need to make sure that development takes place in other areas in indonesia. so going back to the question, are we likely to have the kind of capitalism that china has been able to, you know, succeed with. perhaps not. because i think we have a completely different political process. >> charlie: democratic process. >> yes, we have a democratic process. are we going to be able to achieve economic science that matters? yes, we are. simply by doing what we have been doing, i think the question that liquors among many young end neationz is -- indonesianss whether or not we can achieve the delta beyond the current economic growth rate. it's not impossible if we can just tweak a couple things. and that i think -- >> charlie: what do you need to tweak. >> i think we have to be, you

know, more assertive on the infrastructure development side because in 1995, just to cite some numbers, we had just about the same number of kilometers of highways as china did. that was about 500 kilometers of highways but in 15 years time china have been able to build more than 70 thousand kilometers of highways. so if we were to grow at the rate we've been growing in the past 15 years in the infrastructure site, i don't think we will be able to achieve the growth. but if we can do a lot more proactive me which i'm saying we k i think that's going to mean higher economic growth. >> charlie: some say you ought to be one of the brick countries rather than russia, say. >> i think we've got 240 million

people. it's a $720 million economy. >> charlie: the per capita income is. >> $3,200. >> charlie: which is close -- >> oh yes. it's higher than that of india. i had a conversation with jim o'neal some time ago. >> charlie: of goldman sachs started coining the term brick. >> yes. the new indonesia. the problem with indonesia is that not a whole lot of people know where it is. not a whole lot of people understand the latest changes that have occurred in indonesia. $720 million -- >> charlie: why aren't you getting your message out. >> it's starting to. jim even came out with a statement of a new classification or grouping called the new. would which includes the brick plus south korea, turkey, mexico and indonesia. which is a real compliment but i think going forward we want to

be better than, you know, how we're being recognized. >> charlie: what do you want from the united states? you clearly want the corporate sector to invest in indonesia. >> we don't just want financial capital, we want intellectual capital. that's what we're seeking from anywhere when we're talking about the americans, the indians -- >> charlie: the intellectual capital means what. >> technological transfer. >> charlie: right. >> know how, you know. because if one takes -- teach us how. >> charlie: china did it successfully too didn't it, in terms of sure you can come in, but we want to learn from what you do and learn how to do what you do. >> but do you know, gladly when we were in silicon valley, a lt of people know because they're detecting how the internet and the social network came and all of the other stuff that's happening on the internet, how

it's rapidly changing in indonesia. how do you see the development of say the relationship between indonesia and india and vietnam and china. everybody needs to understand that indonesia should not be forgotten. indonesia is economically becoming more relevant to not just southeast asia. it is the largest economy in southeast asia. the second largest of the south east asian economies than thailand. it's a lot of difference between ours and theirs. that i think gives us and everybody a reason to pay more attention to where we are and where we're heading. i think what it means is it's reason for anybody or everybody to be more engaged with

indonesia for purposes of how we can be value added as to the purpose of everybody within the southeast asia region or even the asia pacific region. so i think the more practice engagement with end nearby could be good. >> charlie: the big issue that everybody is concerned about, one of the big issues in global conversations is prices. clearly it's an item at the g20. tell us how you see that. >> food prices are a concern for a lot of people, for everybody but the comfort that we have is that we have a lot of acreage in indonesia. we have enough acreage to be self sufficient and even contemplating a surplus, high

degree of surplus in the coming years. and that's just by virtue of knowing that a lot of the acreage in inld nearby is not as marginally productive as that in other parts of southeast air from a rice production standpoint meaning in indonesia, roughly you know on a practical basis it produces about five to seven tons whereas we know in other countries like vietnam and thailand, they produce more than 10 tons per acre. so if we can cultivate or adopt the technology to raise productivity on a per acre basis by the same amount or to the same amount that some of these other countries, we will be in a huge surplus situation. so it's not a case of not having enough aacreage not having

enough fertile acreage, if we can do that i think we won't as much an issue with respect to food security and perhaps some other countries. >> charlie: tell me what you worry about most. >> i think, you know, if we don't industrialize ourselves, i know it sounds conflicting with some of our noble mission of achieving the 26% reduction in carbon emission and all that. but if we don't industrialize ourselves in a big way, i think we're not going to be able to capitalize on being able to be much more meaningful to the world as we could be. >> charlie: you don't want your economy just simply to depend on the price of natural resources. >> exactly. you know, we've got what, 112pcf with the proven gas reserve, hundred billion tons of proven

coal reserve, four billion barrels worth of proven oil reserve and just about number one, two, three, four rankings. and all the other commodities including gold copper, tin copr and all that good stuff. but is indonesia going to be where my kids are selling coal, certainly not. we would like to position ourselves as knowledge economy some time. not in six months but hopefully in some years. >> charlie: so your mission is to make that happen as fast as possible. >> yes. i'll give you an example. our consumption of steel as mere 30 kilograms of steel consumption on a per capita per year basis. >> charlie: right. >> for any nation to become a modern nation, it needs to be consumed about 500 kilograms of steel per capita per year. south korea from what i believe consumes 1,200 kilograms of steel per capita per year. so for us to go from 30

kilograms to 500 kilograms of steel consumption on a per capita per year basis, we need to be producing an additional 120 million tons of steel. getting one million ton capacity costs one million u.s. worth of investment. right there we're going to need investment amounting to 120 billion u.s. just to ramp up production capacity so we can start thinking about becoming modern. >> charlie: great to have you here. >> thanks charlie. >> charlie: thank you. a pleasure. captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh

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