>> rose: welcome to the program. we're in singapore with the minister mentor lee kwan ewe. will singapore have under what you want to see a true democracy >> american style? >> rose: yes. >> no. >> rose: what's an american-style democracy. >> well, first amendment says you can say anything you like. >> rose: yeah. you cannot have that. >> you cannot with religion, race, and culture. they are forbidden. they are sensitive gut issues that cause a stir. >> rose: do you wish you'd had a bigger fish bowl to achieve your miracle in.

this is a small island. it's 40 minutes from one end to the other. >> it's very difficult to have a little piece of jade. >> rose: lee kuan yew for the hour. next. every story needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but this isn't just a hollywood storyline. it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small.

captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: this is singapore's white house. except it's not a residence, it's a place for meetings. i have come here to meet lee kuan yew. he's the founder of modern singapore and a man much admired for making his city a prosperous country and an economic power. although some criticize his methods, he has no regrets for the choices he made to build singapore. i've interviewed him three times. he is 88 now and walks carefully. his beloved wife of 63 years,

too, died last year. his son is the prime minister. the sharpness that made singapore is very much present. i've come here, like so many others, to talk about the world today, about america and china, about the middle east and asia and about singapore. he understand's life's clock which makes it a time to look back and look forward. we begin with the future, which has always been his subject. how do you see it, this arab spring? >> well, the analysis i have that read, the one i find most credible, arab states have become nations. >> the ones that become nations are morocco, tunisia, egypt. there is an egyptian nation. >> rose: right. >> but no lib united nations

nation. multiple tribes. so when this nation changed leadership, a nation remains 6-and a new leadership emerges, not tribal. whether it's a military dictatorship or civilian ruler with military behind it, i do not see democracy taking root. there's no history of casting roots. >> rose: so what will happen? >> well... >> rose: but do you think these revolutions can be hijacked? whether it's egypt or whether it's... >> rose: hijacked by whom? >> rose: by people who are on the side of the protestors. or by people like, in egypt's case, whether the muslim

brotherhood will do well in the elections. >> the muslim brotherhood is always a force underground a free election, they've never proved that they can carry the majority. >> rose: but some say they're better organized than anybody else. >> yeah, that's all right. they still haven't got the majority. because the egyptian populations as a whole does not want a severe muslim state. >> rose: what impact do you think this will have on the appeal of fundamental islamic radicalism. >> we would encourage radicals in other islamic states but the people don't think it's a solution to their problem. >> rose: they don't think fundamentalist islam is a solution to their problem? >> how can you solve it?

we will face the problems of the modern world: growth, jobs, an adjustment to different social values and cultures. >> rose: do you think the president has explained the united states' interest in this well? >> well, the french have taken the lead. they know the area well. sarkozy has gone ahead. >> rose: by recognizing cad t rebels. >> yes, i think he recognized if qaddafi stays there, they'll have no other problems with libya. >> rose: they can't let qaddafi stay, can they? >> well, they've made him a war criminal, so how can he leave? he'll end up in the hague.

so somebody's got to finesse that problem. they cannot him see, i agree that completely. they can let him stay, there will be a two-state libya. the mar majority of the tribes against him and constant warring. >> rose: become to the american president. is it dilemma for us that we choose to do something where libya's involved but not where bahrain is involved? or certainly not if saudi arabia... >> no, no, no. >> rose: those are simple and explainable? >> no, no. i know bahrain, i know saudi arabia, i know libya. they're two different categories lib ya is tribal, saudi arabia is feudal with a king on top. massive oil wealth which is used to keep his people happy.

bahrain is a sunni minority ruling over shi'a majority. and the shi'as confronted the sunni rulers with the encouragement of iran to get a bigger share of power which had repercussions in saudi arabia because the oil wells to the east are all shi'a. but they are two different types of problems. and i would go along with what what is being done in saudi arabia and bahrain and what is being done in libya. in fact, i think libya, more needs to be done to resolve the problem with qaddafi. >> rose: is there a humanitarian reason to do this? >> the way he's killed his own

people has made him a war criminal. he's been branded a war criminal. >> rose: so he has no choice but to fight to the end. >> that's right. >> rose: there's no way he can buy his way out or anything else. >> well, you can see... in the end he may do a plea bargain. but who will take him? >> rose: what does the world want from the united states in 2011? >> leadership. >> rose: leadership? >> yes. because you're the only mover and shaker take china, she's the second-largest economy but she hasn't got the interest to... a worldwide interest. she only concentrates on those areas where she needs the

resources. >> rose: yeah, but you have said that china's intent is to be the greatest power in the world. >> there's no doubt about that. but it will take them more than ten years. >> rose: how long? you said they'll be the world's greatest economic power in 20 years. >> well, that will make them technologically power in 20 years. they are still behind the u.s. they have to put up a stealth fighter, put a man into space, that's a prodigious effort on their part. >> rose: is the faceoff between china and the united states going to come primarily in the pacific. is that where the struggle will be? >> i don't think there will be a faceoff in a sense of a a conflict. >> rose: i don't mean a military conflict. but i mean a struggle for... >> a strul for influence, yes. i think it will be subdued because the chinese need the

u.s. chinese need u.s. markets, need u.s. technology and needs to have students go to the u.s. and study u.s. ways and then start doing business so that they can improve and it's going to take them ten, 20, 30 years. all that information and all that technological capabilities will be cut off from them. so it will be maintained at a level which allows them to still top the u.s. >> rose: you knew deng xiaoping well. what would he be doing today? would he be any different than hu jintao? >> i cannot say because deng xiaoping was of a different generation and what he says goes and the generals do not question him. he's supreme.

hu jintao is not supreme. he's got a consensus. >> rose: what fascinates me about the china sneeze that i read that deng xioping pretty much dictated his successors and even chose hu jintao. >> yes, because hu jintao put down the rebellion in tibet. effectively. and that impressed deng xioping. >> rose: but jiang zemin did not want hu jintao? >> well, jiang zemin had other ideas. he wanted somebody more like him. >> rose: how would you define "more like him"? >> well, more salve warfare, able to present china to the world with a friendly face.

savoir-faire. >> rose: why? >> well, hu jintao is a bit wooden. he don't know whether to smile... he's of a different character all together. >> rose: who do you like in the chinese leadership today? >> (laughs) i like them all. i have to. >> rose: (laughs) you have to. (laughs) >> but of all the chinese leaders... >> rose: today. >> the one i like to do business with is wang chi shan. >> rose: i thought you'd say that. there's talk he may stay on even though he's 65. >> well, if i was him i'd keep them on. you haven't got anybody near him practical, hard headed, humorous makes the right decisions.

>> rose: and he's had some successes, the beijing olympics and other things. >> yes. >> rose: do you think they'll keep him on? >> well, if i were them i'd keep him on bauds he's outstanding. >> rose: do you think state capitalism will be the model for the future? the economic model for the future? >> for china? >> rose: for many countries that might want to follow china. >> state capitalism is not as effective as private capitalism. would you stay awake until 2:00, 3:00, in the morning because you want your state with a crisis? >> rose: no. >> so you wake up tomorrow morning knowing your salary is intact. in other words, your capital and your shares... there are stakes involved and the other stakeholders also make sure you're on the ball, you've got

to stay focused. so i believe very strongly that private capitalism easily outdoes state capitalism. >> rose: define what singapore has. >> more and more private capitalism. >> rose: more and more? >> we started off with state capitalism because we did not have the entrepreneurs. our entrepreneurs are traders and traders have no capital and do not have the foresight or capability to sink in capital for many years before return comes in, before the state sent out its best officers, who were entrepreneurial, and started off national shipping lines, singapore airlines, we have

privatized them. >> rose: singapore has a very good relationship with china. there's a long history, deng xiaoping came to see what you were doing and sent a lot of chinese over here as you have described to me in other conversations. how about your neighbors, how about malaysia? >> well, they want to make friends with the chinese, too. >> rose: (laughs) >> they're using their chinese to learn to be the front-runners. >> rose: how about south korea? >> south korea has the biggest student population in china. >> rose: biggest student population in china? >> yes, biggest. their parents are opening companies there and they've got to understand the chinese language and... >> rose: so the south koreans are sending their students to china and the chinese are sending their students to america. >> and elsewhere. >> rose: and elsewhere. europe. south korea. how about indonesia?

>> knees depends on (inaudible). >> rose: vietnam. >> vietnam is a special case. it's a long history of non-friendliness and take motorbikes for instance, if we had a free trade agreement with china, the motorbike industry would be wiped out. the chinese motorbike would be cheaper and better. >> rose: so you can't have a free trade agreement? >> no. they cannot really get close to china. >> rose: are most of the countries in the asian region scared of china? wary of china?

>> very wary. not scared. wary that if you know you take a step which hurts their calling. >> rose: what they would do is shut off your markets to your goods. >> that's the least they can do. >> rose: that's the least. what else? >> rose: cut off your businessmen? >> doing business there. >> rose: so that economic stick is always there? >> absolutely. let's not pretend. there's 1.3 million customers with growing incomes and they're going to have (inaudible) so out of it you've lost something.

>> rose: the growing chinese middle-class is good for everybody, though? >> oh, yes. >> rose: it makes a consumer demand that everybody wants a piece of. >> exactly. >> rose: including india. >> i'm not sure. >> rose: you're not sure india does? >> because they're scared of the competition. the chinese have offered the indians a free trade agreement. the indians have not snapped at it because then chinese goods will go to india and compete and the chinese car will knock out if indian car. >> rose: what should the united states do? should it be rushing into asia saying we want free trade agreements with everybody? we want to give you an economic opportunity with us? >> yes, i would do that. >> rose: that's a first step? >> i would do that. >> rose: what else? >> i would say make friends with all. don't take sides. i think by taking sides you can't change the dynamics but

naturally you'll be wanting to help. >> rose: what did you think of secretary clinton's speech in hanoi? >> i thought it was good. she drew the red lines. (inaudible). >> rose: the chinese have said we have... they're within... >> they produce an old map. >> rose: an old map that said these are ours? navigational rights. and she came in and said... >> we go by the law of the sea. which means where you're nearest to. >> rose: exactly. but here's an interesting question. some people looked at that and especially some chinese and said by going to hanoi and making that speech it was an insult to

us. >> no. >> rose: what? >> i mean, they would rather not have that speech made at all. >> rose: yeah, of course. but it wasn't rubbing it into them? >> no, no. supposing she made in the peking. would that have made it less of a disappointment? >> rose: but was this also the united states saying to china we're not going to cooperate with you at every turn. was it a message to china? >> well, yes, of course. it is... i think the chinese are aware that is it in the interests of the united states in this contest for allegiance of the other countries in asia to try and equal the balance by making sure that india and the other states do not become too

dependent on china and in the case of india that she would be able to go and build up a navy that would hold the indian ocean in place of the chinese navy. >> rose: and the united states is adding to its submarine fleet. the united states is has more of a military presence than it had. >> it's going to be used. >> rose: it's what? >> it's a standoff. supposing off fighting with the chinese over taiwan and you win, is that the end of the problem? maybe a second round, maybe a third round, maybe a fourth round. because we have abiding interest which is you do not have because of geography and demography and compelling interests so i think it's really to trim the sharp

edges of the chinese keep them relatively less aggressive. but her conflict will not help. >> rose: china will be creating a huge market because of the number of people who become middle-class. 1.3 billion and growing. are there risks for them? >> well, there are enormous problems. a disparity in income across the cities and provinces. disparity in income between the people who are at the top of the coastal cities and the people at the bottom of the coastal cities and they've got to watch that

carefully or they might get similar discontent and civil disorder. >> rose: could an arab spring come to china? >> not likely. public securities are so comprehensive and tight they call it the velvet revolution and the top place in the arab world. then you put it on facebook and say let's get together (laughs) and it will be put down before anybody could get anywhere. >> rose: and they tightened up things, especially foreign journalists, after the events in egypt. >> i don't know why but i wouldn't be surprised. i wouldn't be surprised. they're not interested in what the world thinks of them. they're interested in their own internal stability and good

order and success. >> rose: is there different chinese attitude about the future than the united states. >> rose: they do not believe that works what works for them can work for other people. if you want to try my system, go ahead, but i have special circumstances that allow me to build up the system. i'm not interested in changing regimes. i will deal with you as you are, whether you're a dictatorship, whether you're a tribal leader or whatever and we'll maintain good relations. i need your oil, i need your resources, let's do business. there's no evangelistic urge to change things. >> rose: is america, you think, a proselytizing country? then to sell their values and believe in their values and... >> (laughs) it always has been and always will be.

>> rose: a kind of missionary zeal? >> yes. for world could be a bigger and better place if everybody comes like america. which i don't think it can be, but you want to try, well go ahead. >> rose: some people look at china and they say there's been no google formed in china. there's been no facebook developed in china. no microsoft developed in china. and that says something about their educational system. >> partly because of the educational system and partly because there's very tight control at the top. they do not like the established order to be tinkered with. if it's working, fine, leave it. and everybody will borrow it and test it out. why take the risk? there they feel let's play it safe. if you let 1.3 billion smart guy

experimenting, you'd have near chaos. they're capable of thinking up news things, i give you an example. i go on the computer for translation now and vice versa. the chinese have done it it's called siku. and you can do wonders with it. and there are many such things. you can do anything you want to do on the interinnocent. there's no need to go to google. you can go to... >> rose: the chinese search engine. a large one, too. they own 60% of the chinese market. what did you think about what the chinese did to google? >> well, they didn't want google to become a vehicle for

subversion. they call it subversion. it goes with the stability of the state. >> rose: do you think it too paranoid? >> the chinese fear (inaudible) it's a huge country and you cannot control everything you cannot microcontrol it so you just stop it. if. >> rose: let's talk about singapore. so you agreed to sit down with seven or eight journalists from the "times," a well-known newspaper here in singapore and said "i'll talk about anything" and then they published this book. did you do that because you were worried that the young people did not understand singapore and you wanted to make sure you got to them? >> yes.

i'm worried that they believe that we have arrived in autopilot. it's not possible. >> rose: what are you worried about? >> the base is a very narrow one it's 700 something square kilometers and it's a one-story edifice and if you keep that steady you might go up to 150. and you keep it around it might come tumbling down this base is narrow so margins of error are small so make sure when you reach a decision you've got to fall back. >> rose: so people say that singapore has crystal sized the

question what price for prosperity and security? >> yes. that's the question that you have... >> we've had to tackle that question. >> rose: and how have you done that? >> first to make sure there's no instability. that the different races live together peacefully, different religions not clash. different income groups mix so there's no ghettos. go around singapore i challenge you to find a ghetto. because the rich and the poor, other than superrich who own private homes they're all lives in one milieu. same shops, same playing field,

same schools. so it's a level playing field for everyone. the most important is schooling and housing that has been achieved and that has to be maintained. they've also had to put restrictions on the tendency for people of the same race to gather. >> you don't want them living in ghettos. >> f so every block you have a quarter and it reflects the percentage of the population of these areas so whether your neighbors are chinese, indians marx lashians, and the children have got to know them, go up and down the same place, go to the

same schools so it's a structural device, a social device, the social structure that forces you to understand the different races and make you co-exist together. >> rose: where did you get these political ideas of yours? >> (laughs) >> well, i watched them after two riots, three riots. >> rose: after two or three riots? >> yes, yes. there were riots. and they were poor and dirty, no sanitation. >> rose: this was before 65 or after 65. >> before 65. >> rose: so you began to form an idea that you thought you would like to see singapore become before malaysia and 1965.

>> oh, yes, indeed. we hoped we could make malaysia the same. but malaysians did not want that. they wanted a malaise society with the malaise dominance. now they've got a serious problem because the chinese and the indians have suffered from them go. to separate schools. chinese go and learn chinese, indians learn malay, they live in different places. they've got disparate communities. well, we have one community. one... i'm not saying they're one nation yet, but we are one society. >> rose: and you have made speeches including in this year promoting the idea of the kind of social cohesion of multiple parties from multiple ethnic... >> yes, without that you get no progress. if you're fighting each other all the time, how do you get sflog >> but do you worry that if, in

fact, there is more political discourse among the young that it will lead to racial politics? >> they can have all the discourse they like, but race, language and religion police tread carefully. >> rose: how can you tread carefully? >> you know that these are sensitive issues. now i said in that book that i think that malays... that muslims... >> rose: malays are the people of... >> should be relaxed. and eat together with the others. >> rose: and it created a firestorm and your son said-- the prime minister-- differed with you. >> that's right. >> rose: so were you right or was your son right? >> (laughs) he has to be right. he's the prime minister. >> dave: but? but?

>> well, what i've said is true. >> and they would say. >> you ask him. >> rose: (laughs) you were born from a well-to-do family? >> well, we weren't poor. >> rose: you went to cambridge to law school? >> yes. >> rose: did you then think that you wanted to go into politics? >> yes, because i saw no reason why i shouldn't have gone to the place. i think given the chance it will do better because we know the people better than they do. >> rose: so you joined to be part of an anti-colonialist people's party. >> rose: and we've done better than they ever did because we mixed up the people. the british kept us segregated from the time the place was built. he marked out areas, chinese live here, malays live here,

indians live here, arabs live here. and the 19th century they were very disparate peoples and they didn't want rye i can't tells. so we'll segregate them. but i've got to make one society out of those people. they've got to understand each other even if they don't like each other. >> rose: and that's why you think it's fragile? >> yes, of course. it's not insight... it's not in their d.n.a. yet. it's enforced by here is living conditions, physical living conditions and everyday intermingling, same schools, same same shopping centers, same neighbors. >> rose: when you were at cambridge, you met and married

your remarkable wife who died in october. she was a political partner, in a sense? >> yes. >> rose: she edited and listened and helped you with the speeches and everything else. >> yes, she collected my thoughts. when i was dictating she would correct. >> rose: and she had to raise the family, too. >> yes. >> rose: you have described yourself as a kept man. >> which i was because she was earning more money than i did. >> rose: (laughs) as a lawyer. >> yes. >> rose: she was with you in 1965 when you actually cried on television. >> yes. >> rose: what were you crying about? >> i cried because an idea was shattered that we would have a

non-(inaudible) society in malaysia and singapore. and we had already made most and mobilized a large part of the population there chinese, indians, and families standing and working pharma lashian malaysia. >> rose: so you were crying over the anguish that what might be have been couldn't be? >> and i had to leave behind all the people that mobilized. they were left leader lest. >> rose: did you dream what it cube what it is today? >> not in the actual form it is because the forms have been... the physical landscape has been the result of technological improvements imported from

outside the globalized relations allowed us the arenas and all the rey of it. but they have that we have a intermingled population one society that was planned. it's a work in progress but it should continue that work. >> rose: someone said you built a first class oasis in a third-world region and you've been praised for your efficiency and incorruptability but you've been accused by human rights groups of limiting political freedom and intimidating through libel lawsuits. >> (laughs) how can you intimidate through libel lawsuits. it's rick did louse. it's either libel and i can win

the case or it's not libel and the judge will throw it out. >> but you are perfectly prepared to be a litigious fellow? >> yes, rather than have to knock him down politically. i'll say i'm here, cross-examineen me as the plaintiff. i'm saying what you said a pack of lies. here i am, now put me through cross-examination. >> rose: you have also said while you might have done things in retrospect that you shouldn't have done, you always did them for the honorable reasons. >> looking back there are things i think i might have done better. >> rose: like? >> like not forcing the pace of getting people to change their languages. >> rose: you made english the

language. >> yes. we were speaking in multiple tongues like the power of babel. chinese speaking so many dialects, malays speaking three or four indonesian dialects. and english a smattering, a very bad form of english. >> rose: this is why you were against what they called singleish. >> yes, i still am. >> rose: you still are. even though the youth is sort of have their own language. >> you want a language that you can communicate to with the world easily. and if you speak your own patois of english you're disadvantaging yourself. i once went to jamaica for a commonwealth conference and i'll never forget this. they took over an american

holiday resort to house us so all the cooks and so on were blacks and good cook but they spoke in a quaint accent. and so i went out to watch the fishermen bring the fish in. i asked him what kind of fish? he says damn spats. i couldn't figure it out. well, that was the result of an amalgamation of many african dialects with the slave masters. we inherited the english language on the british. they decided in this multiracial society to make it the working

language and chinese, malay, indian, whatever, the second language. >> are you worried today about the declining birth late? >> i think nothing i can do about it. >> rose: something to >> it's a life-style change. the women are educated. they're completely independent. they don't marry until they're in their mid-30s. >> rose: here's my impression. that you because you have shown results believe that the p.m. became seen... senior minister became minister mentor knows best what's... and feels strongest about what's good for singapore. and worries most about threats against it >> yes, why is best of singapore continue to thrive and prosper

and (inaudible) we haven't got that yet. today migrants are only 30% and i think we should never allow them to become near 50% and they will change us. >> rose: what will you do to make sure they don't become 50%? >> just make sure they know they're kept down. >> rose: how would you do that? immigration restricts? >> yes. >> rose: subpoena that what it's going to come to? >> yes. taking the high quality people, those with education. >> rose: do you worry a bit, though, that singaporeans because of this prosperity are becoming a bit soft? >> no, not soft. they are becoming self-centered. >> rose: or taking for granted... >> no, they're hardworking, hard driving enjoy life, travel, have a good time.

they work hard and they play hard. they are not going soft. >> rose: you have said, with respect, that they don't feel the spur in their hide. >> that's because they don't think it's knows strive anymore. we are already here, we have arrived. our standard of living won't go down. let's leave it. >> rose: so what's your message to them when they say that? >> just needs more than an autopilot. you run into storms, you run into air pockets and the pilot and the co-pilot and the spare pilot must be on board and passengers will be alive and awake and alert. i sense you're worried, >> i'm worried because if we if they are the new leaders in the

population as a whole go not realize the small base on which this is is built and they take liberties with it we could go down quickly. spiral down a vicious circle down. >> rose: quickly? >> yes. standards of live willing go up, confidence will disappear, investments will disappear. >> so your legacy is that you have presided over, encouraged, led this prosperity. your developing legacy is you want to make sure that it is sustainable >> i want to make sure this place always commands confidence. confidence brings in investment and brings in talent. with investment and talent we will prosper. that confidence should never be jeopardized by civil commotion

strife of any kind. >> strife of any kind? >> yes. not necessary. >> rose: will singapore have and can it... do you want to see a true democracy? >> american style? >> yes. >> no. >> rose: what's an american-style democracy? >> well, first amendment says you can say anything you like. >> rose: yes. you can't have that? >> you cannot say anything you like about religion, race, and culture. they are forbidden. they are sensitive gut issues. they will cause a stir and big trouble. >> rose: so that's the price you pay for prosperity and security. >> those are no-go areas. >> rose: two no-go areas. you can't got there. do you wish you had a bigger

fish bowl to achieve your miracle? this is a small island. 40 minutes from one end to the other. >> it's very difficult to have a little piece of jade (inaudible). >> rose: what is it that makes you the strategic thinker that people come to for advice? >> well, i do not believe people come to me to seek advice. they come to me to bounce ideas and to test them out. >> but what is it you have? >> experience. i'm 88. i've lived long and i've not forgotten my mistakes. >> rose: you and i talked about america's deficit and debt

problems and seeming political dysfunction to do anything about it. >> i still am. i still am worried. >> rose: how do you see it? >> somehow the leaders think they can treat the problem without paying. and they're afraid to tell the people that we've got do this we have to make these cuts over a period of x number of years, five, six, seven. our deficits will go. that's the only way. otherwise it keeps on going and your interest rates burden will grow with it. >> rose: not dealing with the core problems of entitlements and security and... >> all that has got to be dealt

with. i mean, the baby boomers have to recognize that the world they expected is not the world they're living in. >> rose: so they have to do what? >> (laughs) they have to forgo the kind of benefits... >> rose: the kind of benefits as well as the rate of consumption:. >> yes. >> rose: otherwise you keep on going. >> rose: you believe if we do not do something about it we become a... >> you become an indebted country. >> rose: are we're already an indebted country. >> you become more indebted and eventually you have inflation. you're indebted in a different way from other countries. other countries borrow u.s. dollars or pounds or euros and they've got to pay back. you owe yourself u.s. dollars. so you're under no pressure to pay back, but you're under

pressure from such a huge amount of currency floating around that you get inflation. >> rose: the chinese fear inflation, too. >> well, but that is for a different reason. that's the faulty prices, sectional imbalances. >> rose: should the united states be worried about the fact that the chinese hold so much debt... of our debt and therefore i think secretary clinton has said it's hard to negotiate with your banker. >> yes. because your banker has such elastic and you can't afford it so you go down. and they know that. >> rose: is it possible that the

united states and china will find a way to kooplt on all these huge issues like climate and environment and other big transnational issues? >> yes, i think so but not completely. let's take climate. they know that islands are disappearing. in the non-rainy season there's no crops so they've got do something act it just for their own domestic interests. but can they stop building two coal-powered stations a day if that's the energy nay need? they are faced with a dilemma. yes, they are going in for wind, sun, turbine, sea power but they

see growth as essential to keep momentum and unemployment down. >> rose: to be 8% not double digits. >> well, not double digits. >> rose: not 10% anymore. more like 7% or 8%. it is said about you that you are increasingly aware of morealty. >> oh, i've been so for some time. at 88, how long more have i got? >> rose: but you're not a religious man? >> no, but that doesn't stop me from contemplating the ultimate. >> rose: and what do you think when you're contemplateing? >> is the life i lived in worth sfwhil have i made the world around me of those independent

of my decisions... given them a better life? am i happy with my family? and i give myself a b plus. that's enough. >> rose: you also said once that you don't judge a man until the coffin closes because he might do something foolish. >> (laughs) that's right. so i've got to be very careful.

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