>> simon: welcome to our program. i'm bob simon of cbs news filling in for charlie rose, who is on assignment in asia. tonight, we look at the unrest in syria. we begin with rula aman from al jazeera who is on the ground in damascus. >> i think for some people it's disappointment, and for many people, they are outraged. they think he should have done much more." they wanted him to address their demands. they wanted him to talk to them. they wanted him to acknowledge the needs and the urgency. >> simon: and then a conversation with middle east observers, rashid khalidi, robert malley, mohamad bazzi, and andrew tabler. >> i think the one message-- and it's not the u.s., it's anyone who could speak to the syrians-- is to say the threshold not to be crossed is the use of

indiscriminate violence against peaceful protesters. that's the threshold. we can be very disappointed about the lack of reform and that's a judgment the syrian people are going to have to make but in terms of the use of force against peaceful protesters, that's when i speak about kinsy and that i think should be the message. >> i agree. >> simon: we conclude with a conversation charlie taped recently with linda wells, the editor in chief of "allure" magazine. >> to do the magazine in the last 20 years is better than if we picked any other time-- not that we could have-- if we pick any other time in the past 20 years. more has chked now in the past 20 years, in terms of products, attitudes, in terms of the visual name of our culture and in terms of the acceptance of beauty and in terms of all the controversy attached to it-- plastic surgery and doing too much and anorexia and aging. there are all these subjects that are really vital. so the like the subject a lot. >> simon: the situation in syria and the fashion magazine around for 20 years coming up.

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captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> simon: i'm bob simon of cbs news, filling in for charlie rose who is on assignment in asia. tonight, the spiral of unrest in the middle east now points to syria. today, president bashar al-assad gave a much-awaited speech, his first after bloody protests and the resignation of his cabinet.

many were expecting assad to lift the country's emergency law which has been in place since 1963. instead, he acknowledged the need for reform but offered no concrete concessions. >> ( translated ): now we have to ask what kind of reform do we need to achieve and we have to avoid making the whole reform process subject to the current crisis in order not to.... >> simon: he also blamed the country's turmoil on a broad foreign conspiracy. >> ( translated ): the city now is currently being subjected to a strong conspiracy that goes into other parts of the world. the timing of this conspiracy and shape depends on what happens in other arab countries. >> simon: joining me now from damascus is rula aman. she's been covering the conflict for al jazeera english.

rula, the speech today that assad gave, a lot of people here thought he was going to lift the emergency law. he didn't. is that a surprise there? >> reporter: yes, it was a surprise. many people in syria also thought and expected him to lift the emergency law, but he didn't. and there's a lot of deep disappointment here in the country. >> simon: you say deep disappointment. is it just disappointment or anger as well? >> reporter: i think for some people it's disappointment, and for many people, they are outraged. they think he should have done much more. they wanted him to address their demands. they wanted him to talk to them. they wanted him to acknowledge the need and the urgency, because many people were dismayed at the fact that he made it clear that he was going to introduce whatever reforms he had in mind according to his own-- and he didn't promise them any specific announcement. he didn't make any specific

announcement. he didn't even outline his plan on how to fight corruption or how is he going to bring in more freedoms to the countr or what did he have in mind to meet their demands? people have very high expect expectations. they were very ambitious, and many people had faith in him as a person. they believe he was the right person to bring change to syria without having--. >> simon: this morning-- in his speech today he said that the priority is stability. those are dangerous words in that part of the world, aren't they? >> reporter: yes. mr. assad made it clear that he wanted to do more reforms in syria but he had to slow down because the country was under threat in the past week, and he had to switch priorities. and this is a very sensitive word for syrians. many syrians sense stability and security are very dear values to them. and he's trying to push that button.

he wants to tell people maybe the things you want are very-- but you have to think of stability as well, and the price could be the stability of this country. >> simon: but they're also code words, aren't they, code words for getting tough if you people don't quiet down we're going to crack down, even more than we have already. >> reporter: he was very clear on that. we are not seeking battle but there is going to be a battle, then we welcome it. and he thinks he's up to it. and that's a challenge for people because people now are much more empowered and entitled. >> simon: he blamed foreign conspirators for the unrest in syria. was that aimed at a domestic audience, or did he expect anyone else in the world to believe it? >> reporter: i think it was for both audience, and we have to say, he made it clear, he said, "i don't mean that all what's

happened is because there is a conspiracy." he acknowledged that there are legitimate demands by the people. he acknowledged there is a need to reform but he said some people are exploiting these needs in order to stir strife, and especially sectarian strive, and this is a sensitive chord for many syrians. this is a country have many different sects, and people know if there is chaos, sectarian tension could threaten the security of this place and undermine it. >> simon: ultimately, i guess, it's a question of keeping the emergency laws or lifting them and permitting free assembly and no jail without prosecution, in which case he's toast, isn't he? >> reporter: well, it seems-- you know, the people expected him to lift emergency laws because a top advisor went on camera and went on television and addressed the nation saying, "this is something that is an urgent issue and it's being discussed, and it will be listed. it will be suspended."

for many of the people here in syria, whether protesters or just people watching what's happening on the tv set, lifting emergency law is an urgent requirement because people say they don't want to live in fear. they are tired and sick of having the security interfere in their daily lives on ever aspect, and they want that to end. and they were very blunt about it. they said we've had enough and it's time for it to end. >> simon: okay, i guess the ultimate question is whether this is really his father's son, whether he's prepared to slaughter people the way his father did. what do you think? >> reporter: i don't know. i have to tell you, until today, many people had faith in him, many people even gave him excuses. they were even thinking that maybe he wants to reform and he really means it but the people around him and the system is not allowing him. but what they saw from him today the words he uttered today were

not the words they were-- they wanted to hear. there are some people who are saying the reason why he did not utter what the people wanted is that he did not want to seem weak. he also made the point that we're not reforming because we are under pressure. he didn't want to give the impression that he is weak and that what happened in the past two weeks forced him to make these concessions because there is a concern by the government that if they sound weak, that would empower the protesters more, and more people will take to the streets. they don't want--. >> simon: talking about going to the streets, rula, friday has been labeled "friday of anger." what's going to happen? >> reporter: yes, friday is-- there's a call for boycott on friday following the noon prayers, and today, as the president was speaking at the parliamenting, we could see on facebook and twitter all these activists were saying, "they hee is helping us." they were concerned his speech

today would actually air kind of-- kind of neutralize a good portion of the society, but his speech today was provocative enough to get more people on the streets on friday. so friday is going to be a big day. it's going to be a challenge for the government, and it will be a big test for the opposition on how much can they do because also from the speech today, many people are announcing there are going to be more crackdowns and they will have to think twice before they take to the streets. >> simon: rula, thank you very much and be careful on friday. >> reporter: thank you. >> simon: joining me now from washington are robert malley of the international crisis group, and andrew tabler of the it washington institute for near east policy. and here in new york, are rashid khalidi of columbia university, and mohamad bazzi with the council on foreign relations. i'm pleased to have them on this program. rashid, there was much

expectation that assad was going to announce some significant reforms in his speech today, that he might even announce the lifting of the emergency law, which has been in effect since 1963. he didn't. were you surprised? >> no, i was disappointed. what it shows, i think, is that he is still very much in the grip of the security apparatus, which has really controlled this country since the ba'ath party took over in 1963 and instituted the emergency regulations. >> simon: you're thinking he himself without the security apparatus would have wanted more reform. >> i'm not saying that. listening to the speech today, it was a depressing spect chem. the language that was used, talking about disorder, never mentioning the fact that this was really about freedom, that this was really about i desire for representative government and an end to the rule of the secret police. it showed i don't think he really gets it. i think anybody who attached hopes to this man is make something very serious

misjudgments. he's very clearly closer to the security people who are all around him than people are willing to admit. >> simon: mohamad, he blamed foreign conspirators for the unrest in syria. was this meant for a domestic audience or an international audience? >> it was probably meant for both but mainly for domestic audience. what he doesn't seem to realize is the rhetoric, the old ba'athist rhetoric--. >> simon: does anybody believe it? >> i don't think anybody in tir siria believes it. it's the old rhetoric and it shows how unwilling he is to change. he had this moment-- look, i think this man had support. he's quickly losing it. he had support within syria, and he has something of support in the rest of the region because of this legacy of standing up to the u.s. and standing up to the west and not cooperating his government with the u.s. but he is quickly losing it, and as these protests grow-- and they will grow on friday-- he's

going to lose a lot of that good will. >> simon: andrew, what's he's hee going to do on friday? is he going to really geoff tough? >> i think definitely he's really going to crack down. the first part of the speech, besides talking about conspiracies, he said those who were involved in the protests were actually working with outside elements, that it was a matter of sedition, and of course that in syria is punishable by death. now, there's always been a-- this idea that somehow bashar is not ordering the security forces to fire on the protesters but even when he makes the promises or his spokesperson makes the promises, it continues to happen. so i think in the coming-- the coming days could be very bloody. >> simon: we hoped when bashar took office he would be, shall we say more gentle, than his father. are we beginning to learn that perhaps he's not? >> most definitely. i mean, unfortunately, there are two faces to bashar, and almost everybody who has contact with

him or some kind of experience with that regime comes away with the same conclusion, and we're not exactly sure why. on the one hand, he's western educated to a certain degree and has a wife who was educated in the west and is quite glamorous. on the other hand, he seems to rule and continue to rule syria with an iron if i was. it's not the same syria, but it continues to be one in which oppression plays a central role. >> simon: robert, friday has been labeled the "friday of anger." how do you see it? what do you think is going to happen? well, i echo a lot of what we've heard already. president assad had basically a last chance. for those of us-- those that you mentioned who thought maybe, maybe he could distinguish himself from the regime, in fact conduct a revolution against his own regime. it was always a pretty unlikely scenario, but there was that last hope because as your guests just said, he had a residue of sympathy, a residue of support that other leaders in the region such as president mubarak,

didn't have. he had some of it. with the speech today he seems to have basically said no to always those who were hoping he would be the last card. and now the problem is when friday comes-- and whether it's this friday or next friday or any day-- if you have mass demonstrations-- and you will have them at some point because he has basically told his people there is no hope to expect from me at this point-- what will he do? the only option appears at that point to shoot which of course will be a tragedy, a tragedy for the syrian people, a tragedy for the regime. if its only obsession now is survival twill not survive. >> simon: you've called for a consistency of american policy throughout the middle east, particularly with the nations that have been in revolt recently. now, what do we mean by consistency at this point? should we impose a no-fly zone over syria? >> well, i mean, i think there's a consistency in values. i think we have to be-- i think the president has to be consistent in terms of what he's

calling for. that doesn't mean you act everywhere in the same way. first of all, we haven't yet seen-- and i hope we will not see mass bloodshed in syria. if that happens i think there are going to have to be some measures that are taken but a no-fly zone may make sense in some place. i don't see how it would apply in syria. let's hope we don't see that occurring. again, i think it's a very possible scenario but we're not there yet. at this point, we've heard a president give a very disappointing speech, as rashid said. let's hope it is not followed by very disappointing and deplorable acts. >> simon: rashid, here we have a dictator, like other dictator,s and united states has taken a very firm stand against qaddafi. didn't give much joy to ben ali, and sort of abandoned mubarak quickly. but the united states has a certain interested tr in keeping assad in power, doesn't it?

>> i think the united states and anybody who wishes this region well probably does not want to see the dissent of syria into bloody chaos, does not want to see sectarian war, or sectarian strive, does not want to see the country fall apart, does not want to see what we did to iraq repeated next door. that would be a catastrophe for all concerned. if people in washington are worrying about that, they're worrying about one of the things they really should be worried about. >> simon: because when we're talking about the possible change of regime in syria, we're talking about how it impacts on iran, & jordan and leb-- not to mention israel. >> but i think it's fortunate remember what's happening in syria is essentially generated within syria, for syrian regions. like all of these arab revolutions. they're not about foreign relations. i mean, they're important to neighboring countries, they're important to the united states, to the world. but they are about problems that the syrian people have and have had for decades with their

miserable, repressive government. >> simon: but for the first time today, in assad's speech, we heard the anti-israeli slogan raised. he was talking about not only foreign conspirators but israeli conspirators. >> i don't think that's going to go very far with syrian people. there is a waste of arrests going on now in syria. i understand. the ferocity of the secret police is not quite unparalleled-- this is a nasty region-- but it's pretty grave. and i think that people understand perfectly well that this has nothing to do with syria, the united states, mozambique or anything else. it has to do with the people wanting freedom and the government refusing to give it to them. so what one hopes is there will be a transition, and i think what we heard today, delays, hinders, and places obstacles in the way of a peaceful transmission syria. there will be. i mean, i think something has started that is not going to stop. it may take a very long time to work itself out but something has started that will not stop-- just in syria, in the gulf as

well when people in washington will shiver in their boots when the same kinds of things we have seen in some country will begin to develop. >> simon: gone to develop where? >> a number of gulf country where's people are not willing to grant democratic freedoms. >> simon: you think it could happen in saudi arabia. >> in lebanon, for all of its problems, you have a constitutionals regime, uninterrupted since 1943, occupied, trampled over, civil war, and it still functions. >> simon: who is going to pull a revolt in saudi arabia? >> saudi arabia has a growing middle class, a growing public superior court a growing number of people in civil society that understand the views of the royal family that they own this country and have a right to it and the entire peninsula simply do not mesh with the 21st century. that may take a decade to work itself out. it may take even more but i think the-- this kind of

autocratic rule, unrepresentative, repressive its days are numbered throughout this region. >> simon: mohamad, the speech today of president assad disappointed people here, disappointed people in syria. what was he hoping for? did he think it would convince anyone? >> well, there was a lot of discussion and talk that this was going to be the speech where he would cancel the emergency laws, where he would pull back some of the powers of the security apparatus. and he went out and did the exact opposite of that. so he went out and said this is not going to happen. and "i'm going to stick with the old line and basically i'm going to be the parallel of my father, at least when it comes to these security issues. and when it comes to blaming outsiders for the trouble within syria. i want to pick up on an issue

that rashid raised, which is the impact of iraq. i think one of the things that might hold back severe disintegration in syria is the fear of ending up like iraq. the syrians, more than, certainly, the egyptians and the tunisians and the libyans, have had direct experience with what it means for the state to disintegrate and to fall into a sectarian abyssarchs iraq did. and i'm talking about the syrian people here not, not just the state. but syrians, average syrians understand that experience. they had a million refugees come across the border from iraq. many of those refugees, hundreds of thousands, still live in iraq. they're a daily reminder-- still live in syria, those iraq refugees, and they're a daily reminder to syrians of the impact of sectarian warfare. so that's one of the things that's likely to give many average syrians pause. >> simon: now, robert, yesterday there was a very large demonstration in damascus

pro-assad. was this an indication of popular support for assad or was it a "rent-a-crowd?" >> i think it may well have been a rent-a-crowd. i think it may have convinced the president and those around him that they have that support. you know how these things work. assad himself organized it. they bus people in, all the civil servants. it may well be that he falls very for the very symbolic event his people have organized for him and that may be one of the reasons he felt he could get away with the speech he gave today. >> simon:... both mubarak and ben alley were blind, that they didn't know what was going on in their country. >> i think that's with leaders in any autocratic society. and even though bashar seemed to have more of a sense of people than those other autocrats-- he was younger and tried to go

more-- but once you're in the bubble and fed the disinformation, misinformation, sycophants telling him people love you, don't give into pressure, i think that was part of why he gave the speech he gave. i think the other reason was that he is convinced-- and he's been convinced for a long time-- you don't give in to pressure. >> simon: andrew, do you think hezbollah is quaking in its bootss today? >> i have no idea. i would that they're not. it's very unclear, though, exactly-- bashar talked about conspiracies and bashar consoldaylighted his regime by rallying everyone around the concept of resistance to israel and it seems like this speech today would reaffirm that. a us think it has a lot of implications for u.s. policy on syria because until now, the obama administration has spent tremendous time trying to get israel and syria into talks, and

this speech today, by relying so much on the israeli conspiracy, he, obviously, feels he has quite a bit of legitimacy with his people in that regard. so how in the world are we going to get a man who just gave that speech into peace talks with israel any time soon with the united states, who he included this that conspiracy, is a good guess. it's a good question. >> simon: do you have the impression that the israelis would rather see him succeed? i mean, the border with syria has been quiet now since 1973. >> it's-- that's true. it has been the quietest border, and i think they are-- there's an argument that better the devil you know. but their objective, like that of the united states, is to break the resistance axis-- iran syria, and hezbollah. so far we've talked about pursuing a peace treaty between israel and syria to achieve that. and that would be one way of doing so. but then there are other voices, mostly conservative voices, who say that perhaps chaos in syria or the regime coming down and a

sunni government coming to power would also break that axis but i think right now that's something that's under debate in israel and it's still unclear to me exactly which argument will win out. >> simon: rashid, when talking about chaos in stirria, obviously, one of the solutions to chaos is an islamic government. that would have pretty serious consequences in the region, much more serious than if an islamic government took over in egypt or tunisia or libya. >> well i think the bogeyman of an islamic government is something people are going to be waving for a long time. it was the stock in trade of every one of these dictatorial, awful police states. they would run out that bogeyman, and there are people in washington, think tanks-- so-called think tanks in washington, that ably echoed that. i don't think that's what we should be worried about. i think we should worry about chaos. and if i was in israel, i don't think myself would be dancing a jig about the demise of the so-called axis or whatever it

was. i would be thinking what democratic representative arab governments that for the first time in decades actually represent what their people want. are going to do and how they're going to behave while watching what israel does to the palestinians. i would really worry about that. maybe it's time for israel to actually seriously take what the people in the arab world think, which is they don't like what israel does to the palestinians quite seriously ask and do something about that. >> simon: do you think that would happen when it hasn't in decades. >> miracles sometimes do happen. >> rose:. >> simon: in the middle east, in particular. >> that's where most of the ones we know about came from, isn't it. >> simon: why do you think the palestinians, of all people, with more grievances than anyone else, have been quiet? >> that's probably a better question for rashid but i'll take a piece of it. >> take a shot. ( laughter ) i think part of it is you have two poles to protest at on the

palestinian authority and hamas. both very repressive in their own ways towards the population ask both sort of with a stake in suppressing their local population, and using the bogeyman of the other side and having a convenient excuse that it's hamas stirring up trouble in the west bank and it's the p.a. stirring up trouble in gaza. i want to make a quick point about hezbollah, actually. i think one of the things that's gone on in the debate over syria is the assumption that if the assad regime falls, somehow magically you're going to get another regime in syria that is going to be pro-u.s., pro-israel and that is not going to be involved in lebanon, and i think that's completely-- it's delusional. >> simon: who says that? >> well, there are some conservatives in washington--. >> simon: american conservatives. >> yeah, and others as well. we can't assume that if the assad regime falls, i think any

subsequent syrian regime is still going to see lebanon as a linchpin to syrian security, and there's no reason to think that they're not going to be as supportive to hezbollah. and they might have a slightly different relationship with iran but they're going to see influence and strong influence over lebanon as a key to their regional position, and i think assad is almost inconsequential in that. >> simon: robert, rashid referred to the notion of islamists taking over as a bogeyman, that the bickitators in the middle east have been using that to terrify their populations, but is it just a bogeyman? i mean, it did happen in iran, didn't it? >> i think what rashid means-- and i agree, a lot of regimes have used that scare crow of the possible takeover by the muslim brotherhood--. >> simon: but is it a scare crow? >> they've used it that way. listen, it's too early to say. one thing i think we all have to be-- and i assume everyone

agrees here-- we have to be very modest about our predictions and our understanding of the a region that surprised all of us-- at least they surprised me. when people say what will come after assad, i think we don't know. i think the mud limb brotherhood has been decapitated, mainly by assad's father, but in terms of its popular support, in terms of its ability to project a message that's going to be resinating with many syrians, i , yes, it does have that kind of grass-roots support because it's an organization that has opposed the president assad and that the regime and that muslim, sunni muslim values probably do have quite a bit of support but to project that fr that to say we're going to see an islamist regime, there are so many things we don't know. we don't know how the security forces in syria will react if ordered to shoot on their people. this is not same syria of 1980s when they killed 10, 20, 30,000 people. it doesn't mean we shouldn't be thinking about all these issues

but the sooner we know that these people who we never expected would rise up, now we know what they're going to rise up for and who is going to come in, i think that's really jumping to conclusions we're not in a position to reach. >> the area of unrest is not the area where the muslim brotherhood was strong. it's actually an area of support for the regime. >> simon: what i find fascinating here is the way this all began. in tunisia, which is where it all began, the spark was set by an angry man who set himself on fire because he just couldn't take the humiliation anymore, and in syria, it seems to have been start by a bunch of kids writing graffiti on a wall. explain that. >> that's right. and rashid is correct. this starts in dera. dera, the horian region is a sunni tribal region traditionally loyal to the regime. they were cooperated into the

regime decades ago to give the minority regime a sort of sunni insulation, or veneer. a few days ago-- rather a few weeks ago now-- children 20 ages of 10 and 14 wrote anti-regime graffiti on a wall. they were arrested and taken to damascus, and the security forces did not tell their parents where they were. people went out into the streets and then, of course, there's been a cycle of violence ever since, despite the fact that the regime sent a delegation to the area which led to releasing the children but then they cracked down again and began firing on the protesters. >> simon: you know when we talk-- >> this is a very strange place. >> simon: excuse me. when we've talked about all the revolutions in north africa, the middle east, now being revolutions of young people. but 10 to 14 is overdoing it a bit, isn't it? >> it's the same slogan used from tunisia to-- >> exactly, exactly.

>> simon: all the unrest so far has been far from damascus. why is that? >> part of it is the sunnis of damascus have also been cooperated by the regime from a long time ago. if the unrest really spreads, then assad has very serious reason to be worried. >> simon: because in all the other revolutions, revolts, it started in the capitol, aside from tunisia. >> also in egypt there had been labor actions and other protests that hadn't gotten very much attention but certainly going back to 2008 and even earlier. but, yes, if-- if the protests spread to damascus in a serious way, you have small protests. we're talking dozens of people facing off with pro-assad supporters. but if they spread in a serious way to damascus, then assad has

very serious reason to be worried. >> simon: rashid, i think what it comes down to ultimately is whether brashar is his father's son, would he be prepared to massacre, for example, 20,000, approximately, people in hamas? >> i don't know the man, but i was taken aback listening to the speech and watching his body language today. i saw it on al jazeera. he spoke with conviction. it was-- it was-- this was not somebody who we saw in the "vogue" magazine spread on his wife. this is-- this is-- it's not his father's son, hard man in the mold of his father. when he laughed at the jokes he was making, he wasn't putting it on. i think he's going to have great difficulty doing what he would have to do to save this regime. >> simon: what joke did he make? i couldn't imagine him making jokes. >> he was essentially making fun of the people of syria, the same

contempt that all of these rule version shown towards their people which is why what people are asking for, dignity. >> simon: making fun of the syrian people today. that doesn't seem like-- >> he was making fun of the demonstrators. he was belittling the demonstrations and laughing. and i would-- i would-- i would just say it is not somebody being pressed and forced into these positions. >> simon: what about the people in the countryside, mohamad? do you think they'll keep it up when assad gets really tough, as it seems that he will? >> that's very difficult to predict. some of the wall of fear and the barrier of fear has come down as we've seen in the past two weeks. but it's very hard to predict how severe the oppression would be, what the response then from the protesters would be if there are other factors that come into play. i think rashid is right-- people have these very basic demands for dignity.

people really wanted to hear assad say, "i'm sorry," to offer condolences. that was a central demand of this. they were surprised he hadn't said it after the first round of shooting and he lost some credibility and support after that. >> simon: has a dictator ever offered condolences? >> good question. no, not in-- not in this-- not in this crisis. certainly not in this era. and maybe assad, like the dictators who fell before him, just think it can't happen to him. let's remember he gave an interview to the "wall street journal" at the beginning of all of this, during the height of the protests in egypt, saying syria is different. "the people believe in me and the people trust me and i have not been cooperated by the west and the united states so i'm going to survive ." >> simon: robert, when assad mentioned at the-- before the revolt began that syria is immune from this kind of protest

it can't happen here-- do you think he believed it? i was in syria right after he gave that interview speaking to a lot of people close to him and what they were staying it's first line you just heard, "we're different." right after that they were saying we know we're different but i think they knew even as they were saying it that there is something that could happen there. i don't know that i expected it happen happen the way it did, to spread the way it dbut i think behind the self-assurance, the people around him-- i can't speak for the president himself-- had that feeling. but i want to come back, i think the pointa she'd made is right, i think it is true of autocrats who tend to believe what they're told and tend to believe what they say. i tend to believe that assad believed it when he said it was a victim of foreign conspiracy. >> simon: conspiracy from where? >> conspiracy from israel, from

all those who, by the way, between 2005 ask 2010, in fairness, did try to undermine or to try to destabilize syria. even people who were paranoid had real enemies and in his case he had a whole slew of enemies who tried to go after the regime and i think that marked him and he saw that he survived that confrontation, and he believes people out there, whether israelis, whether lebanese, whether americans-- whoever-- who are trying to take him out. so i think he believes his own rhetoric. he believed the million people who were out there, that they really went out for him ask that's the problem of the disconnect between a leadership that claims it's listening to its people but ends up just listening to itself. >> simon: andrew, do the think the administration, do you think president obama has any option than to aside from just sitting there and worrying? >> of course he has options. until now, we focused-- well, in terms of dealing with the

immediate crisis, he has to be careful about his statements. already, secretary clinton's statement concerning assad being regarded on both sides of the aisle as a reformer has backfired, i think. obviously, assad has not gotten the message. so, but besides, that robert ford, the ambassador, is now in damascus, and is talking with the syrian government. but, look, we've been talking with this guy for over two years and we have not been introduce anything negative incentives or sticks with syria. i'm not saying we should throw out pursuing the peace process. i'm not saying we should stop engagement, but i think to really deal with a guy-- with a dictator who is as meade as bashar, we're going to have to implement or to use some sticks and to introduce them into the mix. >> simon: what sticks do we have? >> the question is which is most useful. definitely most of the sticks we have beyond-- the assads listen to multilateral pressure

historically. it doesn't always work well. but the one instrument that we have which has some traction are u.s. sanctions. not all of them, but some of them. and the reason why we know that they have some impact is are for the last two and a half years they've been asking us repeatedly to lift them. for example, designating some of the members of the regime responsible for the crackdown under u.s. sanctions, so they can't go and invest their ill-gotten gains and their money outside the country and the rest of the international community could be one step. but this is part of a fundamental, i think, re-think on how do you approach syria? >> simon: but right now, from what you're saying, i take it for the moment there really isn't anything the administration can do. it. >> no. i think what they need to do is to-- is to actually get a syria policy, and develop one. i would say call is t a hybrid policy where we don't take the idea of peace between israel and syria completely off the table

but very clearly i don't think this is going to be achievable in the near term. it doesn't just have to do with the protests. it has to do with some wishful thinking on our part and i just don't think the two parties are ready. in the meantime, what are we going to do about syria's domestic behavior with its citizens, but also it's behavior n on weapons transfers. these are all things we need to bring into consider expagz need to introduce some negative incentives. yntd there, it's anybody's guess. >> simon:... negative incentives not long ago when they bombed a reactor, didn't they? >> i'm not talking about those kind of negative incentives. i'm talking more about here in the sanctioned regime. >> in terms of the u.s., i'm not sure there's much we can do now. we're in the middle of an event in syria could that could change any day, and anyone who can to the syrians to say the threshold

that will not be-- we can be very disappointed about the lack of reform and that's a judgment the syrian people are going to have to make but in terms of use of force against peaceful protesters that's when i think about kinsy and that, i believe, should be the message. >> i agree. >> as of now-- i'm sorry? >> it should be the message across the board. >> absolutely, absolutely. my point is this has to survive-- this has to survive-- as i said, this kind of message has to survive space and time travel. we can't say something that applies to syria but doesn't apply to bairan or elsewhere. >> precisely. >> that's the consistency in tirmz of putting red lines, what sorts of behavior regimes use when dealing with their citizens. >> simon: consistency, same policy across the middle east and north marc, we've gotten pretty tough with qaddafi. do you believe for a minute that it's possible for the american administration to get tough with

bahrain? >> it means saying the same kind of thing to the saudi monarchy, which since president roosevelt nobody has been willing to stay-- >> sglooim do you think it's going to start now. >> which is you cannot forever suppress the aspirations of your people for democracy. which means the disposition of the wealth of your country has to be decided upon not by a family or klik or narrow unrepresentative party. sgloo. >> simon: noble words. >> i see no reason why not. i see no reason why not. are those our values or not? where oil is concerned or something else is concerned, we abandon them. >> simon: you tell me. >> well, i think we abandoned them. i don't see us holding out for self-determination on the west bank and gaza strip. we're upholding a 44-year-old occupation. we're perfectly happy with that. i don't see sanctions there. i would love to see the american tax-free dollars flowing like rivers of milk and hone into

settlements. >> simon: on the note of milk and honey, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> rose: linda wells is here. in 1990 conde nast's chairman tapped her to develop a new magazine. the concept was to take a smarter, more journalistic approach to the world of beauty. in march 1991 "allure"'s first issue hit the newsstand. this month they celebrate their 20th anniversary. i pleased to have the editor in chief at this table? >> thank you, charlie. >> rose: bringing journalism to beauty. >> magazines would never say anything bad about any advertisers or anything else. there was never an ugly side of any kind of reporting. and i wanted to bring real reporting to a subject that often had a lot of false claims to it and a lot of mistrust attached to it. so i really wanted to bring

something a little meatier to the topic. >> rose: and advertisers love that. >> i think we lost almost every advertiser. i think our fourth issue was maybe seven pages of advertising. it might be a record low. >> rose: what did you do? >> i did meet with them. i met with them beforehand, and it was sure you are. but then we were fair and tough-- at least we thought we were,-- and i met with them afterwards and it was a very emotional moment, let me say. i had my head ripped off and handed to me. but over time, i think that we became-- i think that they-- the industry came to accept us, and i think on the plus side is when you're journalistic and really report, the reader trusts you. and then when you recommend a product, when you-- you know, when they advertise in the magazine, it has greater credibility. so it's a different kind of relationship, i think, with a magazine than many people are used to but we got there. >> rose: so how has it changed over the years? >> well, it's changed because

women have changed, because people have changed, the culture has changed. when we start out, beauty was something people were very uncomfortable talking about. intelligent women really felt beauty was something that would undermine their credibility so it was sort of a subject in the closet for a little bit and it was for ditsy people and strippers and so on but it wasn't for really smart women. and them as time went on, i think people became more accepting of the subject and accepting of the fact that appearance is one more thing they can use to take over the world and be strong and confident. the two things became more connected-- health, beauty, confidence-- and that was a really potent combination. >> rose:. >> rose: you didn't use sort of fashion models on your cover. you used celebrities. >> we started out using fashion models on our cover. that was the moment. it was 1991, and we had on our first cover stephanie seymour, and we went through all of them, and we start using celebrities in the late 90s when the tide changed and people became more

interested in celebrities as pictures of glamour and style and beauty and less interested in models as just faces. you know, they really wanted character to go with it. >> rose: so that brings me to this. >> yes. >> rose: why you did did you choose victoria. you had a contest. >> victoria beckham sells really well. >> rose: why is that? >> i think people are fascinate with her because she's a sort of mysterious character. >> rose: she was a spice person. >> she was a spice more than, yes. but she also is this sort of self-invention, which i think is fascinating. i think that represents what we're talking about. this woman, she will say herself she's not the world's greatest singer but she had a huge career as a pop star, and then she went on to become a designer, and she's had these many different lives. >> rose: and she married david beckham. >> david beckham, not so bad. >> rose: no, she did well.

how did you choose her? >> we chose her because she really, i think, represents a kind of new form of beauty, a sort of self-realized butte that i think is really fascinating right now. it's not something that maybe you're just given and emptily take but you go in charge and take hold of it, take carriage of it. >> rose: to be an editor, what's that like? >> it's an adventure. he knows more about magazines than anybody else. >> rose: and loves them. >> and loves them. and just has such insight, and also he's got really a sort of-- an ability to withstand a lot of changes. "allure" was not an easy magazine. we came along. we challenged all the advertising. it was-- you know, the biggest advertising in the company are beauty advertisers and we were sort of challenging that whole relationship and many times sy had to fight the battles for us. and he was really very supportive of all the tasks we took on. >> rose: he also has a reputation of changing editors.

>> yes, he does. i was hanging on to the cliff for many years. >> rose: who has influenced as you a journalist? >> i really had such a great experience when i worked at the "new york times," and i just was surrounded by all these really serious people-- i'm not a very serious person-- and it was fun to be -- >> you were surrounded by serious people and you are not a serious person. >> i came from both, i was privileged-- sfwl you're serious about fashion. >> my colleagues were getting death threats and i was getting flowers. so i think that it was really just being around all those people, the "new york times" was so inspiring and i worked for carey donovan, a legendary, supportive and visionary, and also aujous. and she had a similar background. >> rose: is the whole question of fashion journalism changing? >> i think. i think people want more fashion journalism. i think they want more h1n1 qiry

into what goes on and is it good? i think there's a lot more proposing in journalism. i think the days where qeerp all sitting in ball room expharz clapping are over. >> rose: weren't you at five minutes for vogue? >> i was, for five years. >> rose: how was that? you loved that, too. >> it was an adventure. what i learned there was the emphasis on visual and excellence and visuals and then -- >> design. >> to go to the "times" and learn journalism and combine those two things was fun. >> rose: alex lieberman really understood design. and that means what? >> so many things that go into it that you don't realize. "allure" was the last magazine launched that alec worked on so i was the lucky recipient to sort of listen to him and go back and forth with him. and he really understood what-- the design and the image and the way to crop a picture.

his theory was if a picture is bad, make it big. and we really took advantage of that in our first issue. you can go through it now -- >> this is a cover of the first issue. >> yes, this is the cover of our first issue. >> rose: i rest my case here. >> make it big, right? blow it right up and put type all over it. he had all these statements but nothing was precious. he didn't want anything to be perfect. he didn't want anything to be too revered. >> rose: have you ever thought of leaving fashion journalism for something else? >> i have, but i haven't done it. >> rose: why not? >> you know, i think when you start a magazine, there's such a relationship to the magazine-- it's like a child. it's a whole different thing. i gave birth to the magazine so how could i possibly walk away from it. i used to be a food editor and have been offered a couple food magazines and design magazines and different things but i love this subject. i think that the subject is so

fascinating because it hits an emotion, women. women's appearance is something that they're very emotional about. and when something has that kind of tension in a motion it's interesting. >> rose: is it changing? >> it's changing all the time, yeah. our culture is so visual, soic that's changed a lot of the ways women have approached beauty. to do this magazine in the past 20 years is better than if we picked any other time-- not that we could have-- if we picked any other time in our country-- more has changed now in the past 20, in terms of products, in terms of attitudes and the visual nature of our culture and in terms of accepting the beauty and in terms of all the controversy attached to it-- plastic surgery and doing too much and anorexia and aging. there are all these subjects that are really vital pilike it a lot. >> rose: where are you going to take the magazine now after 20

years? 20th anniversary. skin care, hair, what's beautiful now. brown hair is more in than blond today. >> yes, it is. >> rose: you did not get the message. >> i did not. >> rose: angelina joely is the representative. >> right, 20 years ago we did a survey and people said christy brinkley is the epitome of butte. as the population changes in this country, so do aesthetics. >> rose: darker skin color is more attractive than lighter skin color? >> people who want to change their skin color want their color to be darker. we found that men think curves of your body are more tractor trailerive than less curvy bodes. men like big butts. i thought that was kind of nice to hear. >> rose: i didn't know that. are there serious evidence that attractive people do better-- >> yes, there is evidence that attractive people make higher salaries, they do better in school.

they-- you upon, they're promoted more often. they get better-- they have better luck in love. >> rose: better luck in love. >> all the things that we wish weren't true are actually true and the world is not a fair place. but it's interesting how all these things have been measured and researched. >> rose: how long do you want to be editor of "allure"? >> i'll go out feet first. ( laughter ) as long as there's botox in the worked i'll stay there, yeah. >> rose: is online a big challenge-- botox. is online a big challenge for you? >> yea, we want to take our expertise-- which is butte and translate that online into something that's unique to the online world and for different devices. our mobile devices and everything else. as the tablet comes out in different sizes there will be different needs for-- women are very direct on the internet. they usually are trying to find the solution to a problem. they're trying to do e-commerce.

so we have a big idea for that. >> rose: e-commerce is big now. going gang busters. >> we're going to do e-commerce on our site. >> rose: you're going to sell products on your site? >> we are, we are. >> rose: so an advertiser can can sell a product on your site. >> we're asking to have what we call the alure beauty product finder and you answer some questions and it recommends specific products to you the user. we're only representing products we like. it's not going to be advertiser driven. it's editorial driven. ask then you can click and buy. it's going to be a huge change. and you can do mass market and prestige and it will be really great. >> rose: it's a great world, isn't it? >> it is. >> rose: "allure" is celebrating its 20th anniversary. linda wells has been the editor since the beginning. thank you very much. >> thank you, good to be here.

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