>> rose: welcome to our program, tonight we conclude our visit to turkey with the celebrated son of istanbul, orhan pamuk who received the nobel prize for literature in 2006. >> this is where we come to the dignity of a reason spring. once you understand your importance, you want your dignity back. once you want your dignity back, you understand that you want democracy and once you have democracy, you want to express yourself, express the silly details of daily life. thinking that they will mean much. that thinking that, people in argentina or north korea will be interested. people in america or australia would be interested in your humanity. that's why-- are liberated because all the things that you think no one will be

interested in, this is how i live in istanbul in '50s, '60s. the turkish istanbul melancholy that i refer to some of is about the sadness of not being important. >> rose: from istanbul, orhan pamuk for the hour. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the following: every story needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but this isn't just a hollywood storyline. it's happening every day, all across america. every time a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business.

shop small. >> additional funding provided by these funders: captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: tonight we conclude our three-day look at turkey after conversations with the prime minister and the foreign minister, we now turn to literature and culture with orhan pamuk. he is turkey's most famous writer. some of his best known works are my name is red, snow and istanbul. his books have been translated into 46 languages. in 2006 he became the first turkish citizen to win the nobel prize for literature. he was the second youngest person to receive the award in its history. in 2009 he delivered the

charles elliott norton lectures at harvard titled the nay eve and sentimental novellist were published in 2010. he divides his time between new york and istanbul, the stay that inspires him. the museum of innocence, his most recently tells the story of an obsessive love. he is taking a break from writing and spends his time cure rating a new museum he will soon open in istanbul, called the museum of innocence. it will display his collection of small, every day objects that make up daily life. this is where he and i met for a conversation about the art of writing and hi beloved turkey. >> orhan t is great to be in istanbul. this is your city and we are here in a museum, a becoming muum. >> we are here in the museum of innocence. museum of innocence is a moveally that i wrote and published both in turkey and in the united states and many countries. and also,a museum that i am, about we are, about to

finish soon. it is a museum that exhibits the objects that are related to the heroes of the novel, the story. >> rose: the heroes of this novel, the museum of innocence. >> the heroes of the novel, but on the other hand the story is imaginary, an imaginary story. but the objects are real. it is a way of, for me, a way of remembering are, preserving, highlighting daily things that middle class, upper middle classes and my heroes that live in istanbul have used. in a way it is a city museum and also an atmosphere museum where the melancholy, the mood, sounds, images of istanbul, where my story is,

museum of innocence, the novel is also set. >> rose: . >> rose: aove story about a mafrom upper-class who falls in love. >> the novel is about an upper-class man who falls in love with a twice removed cousin who is from the poor branch of the family. this or that happens. and we are not telling what happens in the novel. our character begins to collect the object his beloved touches or th reminded him of hiseloved. and in the end, since he has ideas can about civilization, museum, preserving the past, sentiment, which are rawl related to our identities, what we call meanings of our lives. >> rose: so you are buildi a museum from the ground up. >> i'm building a museum from the ground up. but this building we are in, which is already converted to a museum space, was a normal residential house.

which i bought 12 years ago when i begin to develop the idea that i want to set a story in a real building and convert the building into a museum exhibiting all the objects my characters deal with. >> rose: so this was an idea of some yes ago. >> yeah, i had this idea, probably 14 years ago. in fact, in my-- snow i mentionethe museum. >> rose: is stand bule is always a character. >> always,ecause, y know, in theirst decade of my writing, i'm writing novels, actually charlie, for the last 35 years. in the first ten years i was not self-conscious istanbul writer. i was just writing about people i knew. then aft my books begin to get translated, in the last 20 years, especially last ten years i have been asked, orhan, your stories are all about istanbul, why? >> i'm not self-consciously

annis tan bule writer, but this is where i spent all my life. and actually, like all writers, i want to write about humanity, how we behave, how we feel, how we react. >> without do you write for? >> i, of crse, ideally we all write for general public. but not everyone reads our books. although i shouldn't be complaining. my books are doing fine. but in the end we write for our reader. >> at the beginning, i also started writing for the little readership, readership is small here but booming in the last ten years. then you write for whoever reads you. if you write in newspaper, you also think about the newspaper too, their readers too. but i write for readers of literary books, i guess. i'm not aspiring to write for a broader popular melodramatic audiences.

while this novel has some, museum of innocence has some turkish movies, melodrama in it, i write for whoever takes novels seriously. and or sometimes i even argue that now the translations are-- that we all belong to a little sect of literary readers, say there are some 20,00 people in south korea, and another 20,000 in argentina n canada, all over the worldhere are people who are eager, serious about serious fiction and reading. for the news, i write for them actually. >> rose: you divide your time between new york and istanbul. >> after 2005 i begin to teach at columbia university. first, of course, obviously, because they asked me to teach there. and going to new york for a semester is a joy. it's a way of looking at your life from outside. and partly because there was

too much political pressure on me. and i thought it would be nice if i take a break every year. and that's what i do. it always helps me see my turkish things, my subjects, my life much better when i have new york distance or when i'm outside of the country. so i like the idea coming in and out, in and out. and seeing turkey from inside. >> rose: but you could live in many places. why do you live in istanbul? you could come here and -- >> of course. this is my life, u know. this town is my life and these are all of my life, yes, i'm pressured. yes, there's political pressure. yes, i have a bodyguard when i live here. but i love this country. >> rose: what do you love? >> well, i don't want to analyze it. and love is better-- . >> rose: tell me what you feel. >> love is better if you don't want to understand it. it is more or less

attachment. and then i've been asked so many times by my friends, local nie-- especially in the united states, orhan, i see are you pressured, why do you go. >> rose: why risk the political -- >> yes. well, there is no answer, really. i want to go there. you know, i get re and more, find my way, more and more interested in turkish things. these are where my stories are set. i'm not planning a novel outside of turkey or my columbia professor friends say are you going to write about us, they ask me. i said no, is ban actual. why, because this is what i know in life. >> can't i also take a break in new york and write there too. but not all my life, you know. one returns to the essential place. onereturnso the sources. not only i'm returning, now i'm doing it. >> rose: is it changing, istanbul changing? is turkey chaing? >> immense. what change. this neighborhood that i set, have this museum now was so

poor, so neglected, so i would say-- so ch poverty in the streets. these westernized parts of istaul have changed enormously. prices went up. gallerie, cultul thing are opening. you wouldn't be thinking of these things ten years ago. you wouldn't even believe that these things would be happening 20 years ago. i'm very happy about that. and that is more or less because turkey is doing fine. in the last decade economically. and we are witnessing this boom in a dramatical way. thins that wouldn't happen, i would never have believed in my youth n my childhood, in my melancholic mood that i chronicled in my istanbul, my autobiography istanbul.

>> rose: first 20 years of your life. >> are happening here. lots of cultural change. >> rose: tell me about them. >> well, the streets, just here, you know. it was just a regress dential street where old paed tea houses were. and they're sll there but next to them are galleries. lturalpaces. lots of monies around, you feel that too. but not everyone is getting relationship, true. that also we have to underline. turkey is getting richer but class differences, economical difference are still around. >> rose: is turkey european or is it asian? >> turkeyaspires to be european. and its definition is half european, half asian. the definition of turkey is perhaps it is a traditional asian country which aspires to be european for the last 200. >> rose: you mean middle

eastern. >> whatever you call t and it wants to be european for the last 200 years. turkey is enforcing on itself westernization in the last 200 years. and it's now part of turkish identity to aspire to be european. >> rose: why did it do that? >> mid 19th century turkey was not the only empire, i would say, ottoman empire was not the only empire that wanted to imitate west. russia and japan are the other examples. all of these empires decided that they're not doing wel when they are confronts europe, or west, especially militaries. >> rose: did they want to be like the west because they felt inferior to the west in terms of -- >> what we call inferior, the sentimental reaction is more complex. westernization all starts with military defeat. i think in 12th century

arabic thinker says that civilizations that are beaten by other civilizations, first thing they do is begin to imitate the winners. westernization both in japan, russian and ot mon empire, turkey, istanbul came with military reform. they know about physics, mathematics, engineering. let's learn them and let's do and fight the way-- in modern ways. that also brings a lot of-- . >> rose: does it pain you at all that france has given you so many awards, that that country stands in the way along with germany and holland of turkey joini the european union? >> it doesn't pain me. but the question is painful, of course. that we turkish intellectualing, generation

and generations of turkish ent elect alls,-- intellectuals, glorious from the french revolution and the ideals of modernity, and imitated them for quite a long time. and then it is sad to see that actually in the negotiation with joining european union, france is the country that visits turkey most. >> rose: why do you think they do it? out of fear? >> i think it's just temporary politics. sarkozy, french president, you know, thinks that there is a reaction right wing anti-immigration reaction so islam in france. and unfortunately, abuses it in every opportunity. >> rose: let's talk about islam. is secularism on the retre in turkey? >> i don't think so, really. ihink-- i'm considering this all the time.

it's such an important and touchy issue. i hear similar questions like is turkey going to ease what is happening to turkey. what are the new developments now that the ruling-- is almost in power in the last ten years. >> rose: likely to bin power for another four. >> yes, perhaps likely, yes. as life's time, it's culture, turkey is getting rh and complex. but i don't ink it's changing its course. what do i mean by it's changing its course. changing its main road. i don't think turkey is changing its main course to be a member of community, of civil lyzed nation. but it's doing that a bit slowly. i don't think came-- the ideal that turkey be a

civilized modern nation is betrayed. but on the other hand, it's not that successful. it's not as successful as we hope it is. but the question is this. but on the other hand, the party that is ruling turkey for the last ten years is made up of politicians. more religious than the previous parties and groups. but on the other hand what's happening it in turkey is not that new too that in the last 200 years, essentially, there were two parties in turkey. and it's the same thing that there are, the reformists, the liberals, or they all aspire to imitate western civilization more. and there are the conservatives and people who value values of islam more in their life. >> rose: this is the akp party. >> yes, this is th akp

party. >> rose: lead by the prime minister. >> yes. >> rose: he says to me i want this party to be a centri party. we want to be right in the middle. >> probably he's already there. he's aspiring to get around 50% or 45% in this election. and this is in the turkish history as much as you can get. you won't go more central. but this is, again, assical center of the right turkish party. and classical turkish politics there will be also a center of the left party. what is different, and these parties have always struggled with each other in the last 200-- 800 years. what is interesting is that some values are changing for the seculars. and liberal-- these are both liberal values.

secularism and democracy. that turkey left is realizing that unfortunately, preserving secularism through the army is not modern, is not honoring free speech and human rights any more. to have a military cps with an excuse, they excuse us, oh, we have to keep the country secular just like mub ar ak did continue to-- mub ar ago did contie to doust rently is not honoring the ideal that turk be a modern, open society at all. >> rose: has the role of the military changed because of the prime minister and his administration? have they as it is said reduced the power of the military and put some distance between them and politics? >> they did that.

perhaps, the prime minister in his last ten years, has been most successful in this, that army power is duced in turkey. and i am happy about that. but that also in some people, fuels anxieties about peser vacation, well-being of secularism. >> rose: so if the arm see not there to protect whorkts is going to protect it. >> because-- say re on the left, social democratic parties, and these parties also are as nationless as the prime minister's party. would have, have the tradition of giving the job of peser vacation of secularism to my. and when they are-- and

since the party is getting more and more-- anxiety about secularism, we don't have the tradition of expressing in democracy. >> rose: there are trials going on here based on the idea that there were a group of generals and former government officials had a conspiracy to carry out a coup des at at time. >> there have been so many coup day that-- coup day that in turk irhistory and so many attempts that i don't want to number them. and it's good that the judges and public prosecutors are investigating thes things. and i think there were attempts of military koupss and there were attempts to, i would say, provoke --. >> rose: do you take this seriously, was this effort that they are now on trial for.

>> yes, i take seriously. i think that that there were military coups in turkey's previously. and the were attempts of making military coups recently. and what i read in turkish newspapers or in all details about these attempts seem convincing to me. but i'm no judge. i'm just in those things. and i'm just behaving like a regular citizen. i think tursh people also are convinced about what the reality of what's happening. >> rose: beyond the government, because of the influx of people coming into the major cities, is the country becoming more devout for the lack of a better word? >> politics is being handled by people who are certainly more devout from previs generation of politicians, no doubt about that. is country becoming more devout, i can't tell.

again, lifestyle in turkey or cultural texture, qualities of turkey is not radically changing. how much of it is, we are getting rich, middle classes who are more traditional and devout has more visibility and how much of itanxiety aboutsecularism or this party's foreign politics. it's so hard to make a distinction. but i think the country is not getting to be more religious. in this muum, that you wouldn't be seeing people drinking 10 years ago, 20 years ago. >> rose: now there drinking in the stets. >> yes. >> rose: but do you see more head scarves and does that mean anything? >> both, i mean seeing and not seeing head scarf should

not be t criterion. in the end, 75% of turkish woman not making it a potical symbol would naturally wear a head scar-of-some of them loosely, some of them in a more political way. for me, my value is every one should be able to do what they want. army shouldn't tell us just take off your head scar-of-if you want to enter the university or the hospital. turkish female-- . >> rose: and they do. >> they should not be treated as second-class citizens. my values are freedom, free speech, dem october-- democracy, cultural values, secularism, democracy or political values, these are the things we should see. once we have them, then people ould behave however they see it. >> rose: is turkey moving away from europe towards

somewhere else at all? >> i'm worried about that. t i can say that not too much that especially in between 2000 and 2006 i was busy promoting turkey to european union can. and thinking and still thinking that it's a great idea both for turkey and european union. but somehow the whole prospect for the time being failed. why? conservatives of europe like sar kozky, angela merkel and perhaps holland also, resisted the idea. perhaps because they sense that immigrant muslims, turks are not too much loved in europe. also turkish nation, there is an idea too. >> rose: would you say to your friends around the world who ask you about turkey, do you say to them, there is nothing to fear in

terms of turkey. >> nothing too fear, there is always something to fear. >> rose: what is there to fear? >> there's always fear of free speech. thers always-- i always fear that in holland there's always a fear of, you know, this countrywhich is always going zigzagging between traditional cultural d modernity, this way. but it's part of life. it has always been li this. that's why kiam's not saying that this country has a full decracy. but it's gng toward it. but i'm also cautious that dramatizing, highlighting more than it deserves, anxieties about secularism also unfortunately paying the way for armies involvement in democracy. >> rose: anxiety on the part of the army that secularism

may be losing it. >> yes, so please army come and help us and save us. i don't want that to. secularism is hard to achieve without the my. but turkish people, we should do that. >> rose: why do they put reporters in jail? what's the fear. >> i don't know. i think it's unacceptable. and even pro government newspaper, and opposition newspapers both opposition newspapers andro government newspapers are critical of putting that. now unfortunately turkey has more than 50 reporters jourlists in jail. and has, i'm sad to say, the world we call for the time being. it's just because we have been doing this for such a long time that it seems normal to people. 25 to 26 years ago-- harold nter came to istanbul and i was guiding them what were we against then? there was a military coup

and hundreds of thousands of people were in jl. and had horrible things happen, torture this or that. but not only that, this country's most loved politicians, sul i man and-- were also in jail i remember a friend of mine, you know, from human rights organization were promoting that visit. years later, last year i met that friend in new york and we about, i wouldn't say good old times when we were all visiting jails, but as we were chatting, i saw almost 30 years passed and we still have democracy demands. what do you ink. and my fend said look, we have, your prime ministers, both of them, the center right and the center left prime minister were in jail, then, again turkey reached democracy. but these people when they were again in powered-- did

not-- the free speech reforms they should have done. again, unfortunately, i see the same thing in turkey there are two parties relentlessly fighting with each other. i think the language and rhetoric of political fights just before the elections in turkey is too strong, too, makes me nervous and it's ss about free speech more about--hile i see ithe streets that people arenot that much involved in that fight. my point is that the culture, language,hetoric of tolerance, of being easy and making deals and negotiations is, did not reach here yet. >> rose: will it? >> yes,opefully. i believe in it. >> rose: will you go back to new york to columbia and you see that the friends that you have all over new york

and united states, do they understand turkey. >> it's so hard to explain. and also there are so many prejudices. my god. >> rose: what is it about their interpretation, many of them, that you think is simplistic and not very nuanced? >> well, first of all, there are so many countries in the world and turkey's population is 100th of the world and turkish economy is more o less 100 of the wod. why not one understand is-- . >> rose: the fastest growing economy in europe and the 17th largest economy in the world so this not -- >> yes. and also this country's booming and booming and it is getting interesting and also. >> rose: and people paying attention because it has influence now that it didn't have before because it seems to be able to speak the language of a number of opposing forces. >> yes, and also its political ite wants to be a player in worlds. >> rose: why wouldt they? sure. yes. on the other hand i would

understand the american or the european who would be a bit ignorant about the details of what's happening here. the main problem is always that turkey is a muslim country, all muslim countries are similar, which is a mistake. >> rose: in other words, they view indonesia and turkey as one of the same. because of one thing, islam. >> yes. and i think it's so misleading. instead, i say look, it is a fight between modernity and traditional culture. it's what is happening. islam is not in politics that much. but a fight between modern, communal society and an economic boom of a newly emerging modern society, that's what we are seeing. and most of the ces this fight is being waged around

democracy, free speech, open society. these-- . >> rose: but does turkey prove that country can be islamic? >> plural, secular, democratic? >> that's what we are trying to prove, sir. but just because at we haven't reached that-- these ideals, doesn mean that you sense that this is possible, is a vein thing. i think, i strongly think that turkey will be soon a full democracy. it is not now. and it has grown in full p powerful economy. but it's not, it's all the way. but we shouldn't-- we should be alarmed and very attentive. but we shouldn't lose our self-confidence in its direction. >> rose: you have been eloquent about the arab

spring. >> when i was in cairo last year, just as 234 my childhood it kur:turkey, everybody was trashing mubarak, once you realize there is no dictate ter, no muir barack, citizens would be more responsible, would be more open, would feel the burden of the responsibility of their country more. the trouble with turkish democracy for so many years, even political players realize just like people they are not responsible. some otherpeople are making decisions for them. i care about if you make-- you call arab spring because perhaps it will pave way for political reform. but more it will pave way for cultural, the way we think, the way w behave, the way we negotiate, the way we open our space. >> rose: more dignity, more confidence, more pride.

>> and also self-respect and trust. once you make the autocrat, the dictator fall down, you have more self-respect and more dignity and also more calculation. now you are responsible. now you're running the country in a way. so you have to be more cautious. you don't blame mubarak or america or this or that, you also think now it's in my hand. >> rose: what does it feel like to be a man of international renown and to know that the power of the state can threaten you and put you in ison like everybody else? >> it's very bad, really. >> rose: because? >> in the end what's at stake is this. that i don't want to lose turkey. i want to belo here. but i don't want to lose my free speech. so it means that i have to balance it in a way that i move out of turkey. i come back. i move out of turkey, i come

back. that also makes my visibility too much and i'm up set by it, that i want to be-- i want to be by myself. i am in this, in the last two months, i am busy with my musings, going inward and doing this strange thing because that is how i deeply express myself. i'm not a political commentator, i'm a, you know, novelist or artist or whatever. >> rose: there a problem with that argument, which is the following. politics is about life. you write about life. your observations are about life. you may very well understand the reason that human beings act in the way they do as much as any political scientist in the world. and we're all part of the debate of our time, about who we are, and what is the nature of the society we want to live in. >> yes. and especially in a country like turkey or a country

where free speech i not developed, and democracy is always a bit crippled or problematical. >> rose: but did this, the fact the government arrested you. >> they didn't arrest me. but they put me on trial. >> rose: put you on trial. what is the difference f they put you on trial, did it have a chilling effe on you? >> it had a chilling effect on me. but it, bei a writer in countries like that, it has always been like that. my situation compared to previous generation of turkish writers is a light situation. the fact that i'm internatnal, makes it a bit dram at call, but so many writers have suffered so much in military coups. and it was again low understanding, i don't want to complain. i don't want to say that you know, this happened, that happened. i look to the future. i write my books. i do my museum.

i create conditions that would be good for my writing and creativity. >> rose: but what you talked about were the kurds and armenians. everybody talks about the kurds and the armenns. >> those issues are whe people talk about them, much more relaxed. >> rose: do you think the arab spring will come to turkey? >> turkey don't need the arab spring. in the end, arab spring, there was not even a voting process. just because you have a voting box doesn't mean you have democracy. arab spring, at least we are hoping that there will be some vong and government change through voting. that doesn'tean demracy. because you have to have also free speech along with it. >> rose: when you go back to this country k you know, you find no problem with it reaching out backing more

engagedith the islamic world. the prime minister said to me that that's clearly, that's part of what he wants to do. he wants to be more engaged with it, with the islamic world. >> but that includes iran, that includes syria, that includes egypt, that includes -- >> yeah, i don't-- . >> rose: bahrain. >> i don't want to go into foreign policy problems. for me for me, the legit miization of a government or my-- in government should be based on moral issues, not foreign policy issues. >> rose: what are those moral issues? >> well, free speech. >> rose: freedom of free speech. >> free speech, democracy, these are the issues. also what the government does in foreign policy, one day, you know, these are-- not things that i'm following. >> rose: does that include what the government does in

terms of its present conflict with israel? >> i'm happy that turkey and israel had good relions. >> rose: they did but they don't know. >> but the-- destred a bit. i hope that france's relationship with all middle eastern counies, turkey should develop friendl relationship with all middle eastern countries, that was last year b two years ago, i forgot. >> rose: two years. >> two years ago. that turkey's relationship, sad to see, that turkey relationship with israelis soaring. turkey should develop that. turkey should also honor free speech, not only internationally but also domestically. >> rose: dow believe that the turkish leadership today thinks it's bigger than it is, thinks it's more power than it is, thinks its more -- >> i don't know what. you can never know what the

leadership thinks. but there is a lot of resentiment to european union because. >> rose: on the streets. >> on the street, also, sometimes still politically, that we were not taken. i al understand that anger. turkey was a-- is a member of nato for so many years. >> rose: absolutely with troops in afghanistan. >> yes. but when we were considered for european union we were treated as, you know, second-class. i understand that. but i don't want that resentment t go for revengism or sort of, oh, well, you didn't want us in europe, so we're going to middle east kind of politics. there is a invest congratulatory rhetoric about well, yo are going to take us to european union. we're going someplaceelse. but how much of it is you sometimes think really a policy of the government and

also observations of outsider. >> rose: some people have raised the question about the united states and turkey in the following way. this is foreign policy but bear with me. they say, you know what do i think of a country whose enemy is my friend, and a country whose friend is my enemy? meaning, the united states says to turkey at this stage in its development, my friend israel is your enemy and your friend iran is my enemy. >> they are, i don't think so. i don't think it is, it is the situation. and really for my own turkish israeli relationships are not that important to what's happening in turkey can. don't judge a country by foreign policy. >> rose: judge a country by its moral character? >> by what's happening. turkey getting rich, is turkey getting democracy. are we saking more freely in turkey? i don't think, by the way, i don't think we are.

but i don't think we going backyard too. and also, if other army involvement inolitics, we are free compared to recent times. but don't ask me too many questions about turkish foreign politics. i'm not an expert on this. let me talk about musings and novels. >> rose: what do i have in my hand s this a novel. >> guess who it is dedicated to, your daughter. >> yes. >> rose: so talk a little bit about what you wanted to say about writing when you talk about the naive and sentimentalist. >> i delivered the famous charl norton lectures in harvard university two years ago. and now they are published as a book, as the naive and sentimental novellist. i sa first wrote about how i felt, how i feel about writing. it is sort of a-- my lite theory o fiction, sort of a

simple they of fiction by a person who experiences it. >> and since i wanted to be a painter as a young man, i'm a failed artist, but i think in fiction i have a painterly eye. that is i write my fiction works, i think to evoke pictures in the reader's imagination, i try to understand fiction as a more telling storieshrough pictures which we expre th words. i also found in the book that there are two tendencies in both readers and writers to be naive about our depiction, really, the fiction we write that is. we just write as it comes to us. and we read naively thinking that it's real, that these eventses have happened. although we know it's a novel. then there is a sentimental side to the novel and to the reader. that on the other hand, there is a corner in our mind that are checking

security, realism, meaning of what we read. we know that it's fiction. we know that it is fictionality. we are also aware of the interesting aspects of artificial y'allity of what we read. when we read a novel we are both naive and sentimental. not only-- when i write a novel, i am also very naive, writing as if this has happened to me. and very sentimental, calculating how the reader might think so i put all these two sides of act of writing and thinking and reading in one and wrote and delivered those lectures in harvard. >> when you write these novels and you're in istanbul, and istanbul is a character, do you go out and try to feel or can you sit in your study in that beautiful window that you have, with that nice round desk, you kno, and write. >> or dow need to be on the street and do you need to e to know d see and

feel. i nd to be in the street. i need to be in istanbul, every year. but on the other hand, writing is rewritte venting, remanaging, situating again all the things that you have lived. i think first you have to do research. again, see the details of what you already know. for example to write snow, i went to small town of northern eastern turkey of karses and lived there. but more than half of the book, of course, the values of the book is based on my imagination or sometimes even surrealistic imination. there is no nov-- i can't write a novel before i get well acquainted with the subject, whatever the subject . anmost of t time it is about and around istanbul. and then also there is n

novel without writers clear imagination that turns everything around and gives a new shape which is also enigmatic even to the whole thing itself. but where it suggests things that areeeper than what you face in the daily life. but full of daily life too. >> rose: where did kamal come from. >> most common question that i have been aed, kamal, is infatuated lover, obsessive lover, hero of my museum of innocence. and i have been asked especially by my woman readers so much, mr. pamuk, are you kamal. >> rose: of course. >> and my answer which i give also in lectures is this, of course not. that's fictional characte how i can be kamal. but on the other hand, i know that the structure and the rules of fiction is such that even if i say to my devoted reader i'm not kamal

they do not want to believe that. >> rose: because they want to see it too you. >> and i don't want them to belie that's true. i don't want them to believe that all the details about love pain which we are illustrating actually here, all the details about how one suffers when you wait for the beloved that never comes and you look at your watch all the time. of course people readers want to associate it with me, with firsthand experience. the dilemma of writing fiction is telling the truth but behave as if you are telling a fairy tale. >> rose: here's a review. about the museum of innocence. >> this is the greatest novel of the new century in its senseuousness of the life observed, its olympian insight into the clash of classes and profession and fearlessness in tapping the great themes of human existence without dilution, showiness, tricks or superficial y'allity, evokes

great novels of love and obsession by baldz ago, toy stoy and man, that's good company, sir. >> thank you. >> rose: i'm not sure how many of them have a nobel prize though. >> what is the gift that all of them have, that you have. >> i don't know whether i have it, is that sort of a conviction, almost god given gift that your experience of life is important. that your sense of daily things can can be expressed in such a way that it will be news for other people. that your sense of an experience of life can be communicated with your craft. first you have to learn the craft of expressing yourself through sentences and the art of the novel. then and more important thing now that other parts of humanity is getting freer and express themselves.

that that your experience will contribute to the humanity experience of all humanity. that it matters. that what you have lived is important too. that you have to have conviction, that you have to express it. >> rose: when did you know you had it? >> at first you don't think su have it. you ask your friends, mi good or what? but you read your tolstoy and faulkner and you think i can write like them too. and you think that these french people or russian people or american people, turkish people are also, their humanity are also interesting. their politics, their art also matters. let me express what i feel in my corner of the world. i think it's also interesting too, as i travel, say, in korea, india, other parts of the world. i think that that, what

third world or nonwestern world lacks is that conviction that their human experience is also important. this is where we come to the dignity of arab springs. once you understand your importance, you want your dignity back. once you want your dignity back, you understand that you want democracy. and once you have democracy, you want to express yourself. express the silly details of daily life thinking that they will mean much, that thinking that people in argentina or north korea will be interested. people in america or australia would be interested in your humanity. that's why-- novels are liberating because all the things that you think no one will be interested in enough this is how i also live in istanbul in '50s, '60s, that turkish istanbul melancholy that i refer to some of is

about the sadness of to the being important. but once you do something like arab spring uprising, and test that you have power, you also realize now that you have importance and decide to express little details. and novellses are about little petty things. but then once you realize or in museum, little petty paper things, your past, your identity cards, movie tickets, they are also important too. they are. all the things that i collected in my novel, or in this museum, museum of innocence that we are talking now in, are testimony of the humanity of the people who have i come across or who, the humanity of the people in istanbul. i think in the end all art and literature is about preserving, understanding the way we live.

objects or sentences, in the end, they all show the same thing. >> so these are the items that a novellist would understand. >> these are the items that-- . >> rose: give definition too. >> yes, and then these are the things that people in istanbul live their lives with. the aura ofs those lives, i hope, in the books,. >> rose: and the people who come here therefore by seeing these objects of their life can somehow gain some insight into their life. >> i think so. but unfortunately, our museum is not yet open. >> rose: when will it open? >> we are hoping to open it soon. i have twice failed deadlines. and i have learned not to-- have another deadline. >> rose: has it been a work of satisfaction? >> it has been very torementing and frustrating at the beginning. but in this last two months i don't want to leave this building. i'm telling my friends, my god, by coincidence i

invented a big toy as big as a museum and i just don't want to leave it. perhaps it has strong nostalgic but also it's different and interesting. and i know we are doing something strange. >> rose: and what about the fact that it's more physical. >> yes, it is. eternal dilemma between painting and literature, of course painting has you know, physicality. literature does not. while literature has the power to suggest. and invent, change them to pictures in our imagination. >> rose: we are at the museum of innocence with orhan pamuk, the recipient of the nobel prize in literature, i think the second youngest person to receive that prize when he did, in 2006. >> yes. >> rose: a pleasure to be with you. >> great pleasure to talk to you, charlie.

>> rose: we close our series of conversations on turkey with these final impressions. first it is a place of beauty and you should go there and go there often as i will. it is a country that deserves our attention. there is a rich and complex history with roots in islam and the ottoman empire. there is its connections to both the west and the islamic world. there is excitement of its youth. there is a dynamism of its economy and there is a culture of vibrance and passion. we have talked about politics a art. we talked to therime minister and foreign minister who describe their great ambition for turkey to be a democratic and secular regional and global power. and we have heard from its most distinguished writer who found in istanbul his inspiration and his desire to communicate it with humanity and hope. thank you for joining us, and good night.

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