>> welcome to our program. we begin this ening with the killing of a journalist in pakistan and what it means. joining us, pir zubair shah, ssan abbas and shuja nawaz. >> there are elements of pakistani intelligence agencies which are like hydra-headed monsters but with some elements, there are some contractors or former intelligence guys or segments within the intelligence wanting to give him a lesson, maybe they never wanted to kill him but teach him a lesson and that's possibly how he got killed but there's some kind of a consensus when pakistani journalism, which i have been watching the pakistan major news channels and almost all news journalists are saying it was quite likely it was an intelligence operation. >> we conclude with the story of a play on broadway getting brave reviews written by larry kraimer

and directed by george c. wolfe and starring ellen barkin and john benjamin hickey. >> it's been a long time since i have had a date. >> his is a date, isn't it? on the rare occasion i was the asker. >> that's what has thrown you off your style? i called it out. >> some style. before a second date i receive a phone call saying i don't know what you had in mind but can we just be friends? >> no. >> are you glad i'm here? >> i'm pleased as puh. you're very good looking. >> what are you doing here? >> why i will let that self pity pass for the moment. >> that' nervousness. >> it's definitely self pity. do you think you're bad looking? >> where are you from? >> all of these name are projected all over the walls of the theater and what is interesting, iave had a number of people come up and say "i saw thname of my friend" and there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of names, and people are identifying seeing the name

of the lost person or a close person so there's an intense symbiotic action hpening between the playnd the audience that is unique and thrilling. >> who killed the pakistani journalist and what does it mean? and the story of a hit play called "the normal heart," when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose was provided by the folwing: college scholarships... and support to thousands of our nation's... most promising students. ♪ ( coca-cola 5-note mnemonic ) everstory needs a hero we can all root for. who beats the odds and comes out on top. but this isn't just hollywood storyline.

it's happening every day, all across america. every me a storefront opens. or the midnight oil is burned. or when someone chases a dream, not just a dollar. they are small business owners. so if you wanna root for a real hero, support small business. shop small. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> we begin with pakistan and questions about security agencies, a prominent pakistani

journalist, saleem shazad was found dead and buried in karachi yesterday. he went missing after writing a ece alleging links between al qaeda and the pakistani navy. he received threats from pakistan's intelgence and security agency in the past. the isi today denied it was behind the abduction ask ill asking. joining me now are pir zubair shah, who writes for "the new york times" and left pakistan in 2010. he was part of the team thatwon a pontius pilate in 2009 for the coveragef pakistan in afghanistan. he is at har sha university. also here, hassan abbas fro columbia university and the asian society. he was part of a report, 2020, building a better future. from washington, shuja nawaz, from the center and has written about pakistan. i'm pleased have them here. my first question is: why is

this significant? >> actually the story is significant because pakistan is significant. its role is significant and its future is very important and the killing of a very prominent journalist who has been working on the subject of al qaeda and the militancy, and who has been trying to dig out the facts in a very shadowy world, where access is difficult. >> so it's very imptant. and the way he was killed, the way he was abducted, is something which everyone is concerned about, especially in pakistany context ere we seemingly have a very thriving and independent media, dozens of tv channels, hundreds of print

publications. so in that context it's very significant to know why he was killed, who were the people, the group responsiblefor his killings,nd then put anytime context and come up with a solution so that in the future, such incidents could be stopped. >> what is the attitude of the isi specifally about reporting? >> well, the isi guards its secrets extrely jealously and not just the isi but the military itself takes great umbrage when some of its internal information leaks out into the media, and there's been a lot of that going on, particularly in the recent years as he was saying, there's been a tremendous out growth of the broadcast media, in particular

as well as the print media that are competing for space in pakistan. so they try to get to the source of 95 leaks. now, it's quite possible that this may have been behind this murder. it's ao possible that some of the al qaeda elements may have been behind this. we d't know. the prime minister says he has ordered an inquiry. but such inquiries witn pakistan have never reallyieded any results. there is a long tradition of burying the tru in the fis and forgetting about them. >> are reporters in pakistan who ar writing about sensitive subjects livingn a certain fear that somehow, someone in the government, whether the leadership of the government knows or not, might come down on them? >> absolutely. and not just the government but from certain political parties in the country that have used the threat of physical vionce and abduction, on reporters in

karachi and other cities as well as from non-state actors that are extremely prevalent in the punjab, what used to be the northwest frontier province within the bored of afghanistan. there have been a number of murders in paktan, particularly within the last year, of journalists, and none of them have beenolved. >> tell me about him. what was he saying that was so threatening and why might he have been killed? >> first i would say saleem shazad was a very brave journalist, who had the courage to be honest and say what he believed. i ink his last story was significant and i received his book two days before this killing. this lost story, that there were some al qaeda elements that had penetrated the pakistan levee

and there was some kind of negotiation going on and al qaeda wanted that dwo to stop and there was some kind of negotiation going on so there were a couple of other attacks against new year's eve and there was a final attack against a naval base in karachi. his talking about the internal elements within navy who got recruited into al qaeda or who got courted by some other related affiliated extremist group, this speaking out and saying that this is the real factor behind the scenes, internal divisions, he was hinting towards internal divisions. i think that was seen as damaging. it hurt the pakistani intelligence and the pakistani military, it was also devastating for al qaeda, for them to be exposed in this fashion. >> rose: at the bottom is this fear that inact, if there had been a penetration by militants,

whoever that means, alqaeda, or whoeveit might be, even not known by the leadership, it's a threat to a country that has nuclear weapons and takes crucial element of stability in the region. yes? >> yes. >> >> rose: that's the ultimate fear; you're close to the power that makes decisions about t security in the region? >> yeah, that's the ultimate fear. like, as far as the fear about the nuclear weapons is concerned and as far as our understanding for example the taliban is concerned, they don't have the capacity and they don't have -- i would rather say the will to get hold of the weapons. but the fear is that there might be elements within the security setup which might get hold of the weapons and then use it for terrorism purposes.

so that's what saleem shazad wrote about. and basically the military and the security agencies, they are the reflection of theociety, they are the reflection of the pakistani society as we see it today. so if the security has been penetrated by such elements, then it's something which should be taken seriously, and it would have very serious repercussions for the security of pakistan and for the security of the region. >> rose: why would one, and as has been speculated that isi some elements of isi, might be involved in this? what would cause one to be suicious of them? >> well, the impression that has been creed particularly by information provided by reesentative of the human rights march, was that saleem shazad's suspected that he would be called in yet again by the

isi to complain about this particular story, as he was called in ability earlier stories that had been written where he was given some kind of a veiled threat. that is the evidence that is being presented by the representative of human rights watch in pakistan. now, ofourse, it is quite possible that fear was real, that he may have been potentially on the list to be called in, but it's not clear yet as to what exactly happened with him. and my fear is we will never know because even if the evidence doesurfa in some way, it's going to be hidden, this has been the left of all such investigations in pakistan. and for journalists in particular, it's become a dangerous profession.

>> the representative of human rights watch said that he made inquirieand was told, and according to him, he heard from someone in the agencies or that the family herd and they were told saleem shazad was going to be released later at night. of course, that never happened. >> rose: would you speculate on what might have happened? >> i think there are many previous similar events which might throw some light on this. i know that saleem shazad at one time was also accused of having good releases with the intelligence and publishing the stories which the intelligence would want, but like a good journalist he had contacts everywhere. he was so connected with the

south and the libyan areas that whenmajor newspaper said a military leader in al qaeda was killed he was able to go into the area, contact him ask come up with the story that he wasn't dead. so this was important. so he had contacts all around. and in this i agree inhis sense that it's important to know what happened but the track record shows there were people in the intelligence and there were elements of the pakistani intelligence agency that are like hydra-headed monsters and some forr intelligence guides or some segments within the intelligence that wanted to give him a lesson. maybe they never wanted to kill him but teach h a lesson and then he possibly god killed. but there some kind of consensus when the pakistani journalism, and i have been watching the major pakistani news channel and almost all leading journalists are saying it was quite likely that it was an intelligence

operation. it went out of hand maybe but there's a consensus or emerging consensus. >> and if if this instance, it follows form in terms of other deaths of journalists, what will happen? or will this be different? >> i mean, first of, hassan abbas, this is not the first incident. it started in 2006 when a journalist from the north was abducted by unknown people and then his body was found back in 2006 and a judicial commission was formed and the findings of that commission were never made public so it seemed that there was something that the authories at that time were trying to hide. similarly last year we had a

high-profile incident, and the good thing about that incident was that hochima survived to tell his story and this incident, and the recent incident, it happened in islamabad in a high security zone where it's difficult for people to move in and out without being properly searched and checked by the police and other law enforcement agencies. so if this thing can happen in islamabad, i think it's a big message to all of the journalists and all of the people that are concerned that are tryi to find out the truth. >> rose: in this investigation, what will come out of it? >> i am not hopeful. because, like last year, after this incident, they constituted an inquiry committee, and after so many months there's no

headway and we don't know what happened to the committee. so i'm not sure that this will yield any result. >> rose: is pakistan different in terms of the power of its military than most countries? >> yes, it is. afte all, the military has ruled pakistan for more than half of its life, and because its rule for prolonged periods it has basically stunted civiliandministrion and the political system. and the politicians that have been thrown out, once they have been out, they haven't really made an attempt to introduce democracy on their rurn. they basically inherited all of the bureaucratic powers of the military regimes preceded them and continued to use them. whereas those that were in the opposition tended to try toe use the military to depose the government in part. so they fought amongst themselves, allowing the military to become the arbiter

of politics in pakistan. as a resulagain today you have a divided quality in the country. you have a civilian government, which is in the third year of its five-year term, and then you have a military that is guiding policy from behind the scenes, particularly on matters dealing with nuclea policy, wi india, with afghanistan, and increasingly now, on interna security issues, because of their involvement in the fiting along the border with afghanistan. >> fahred karzai was on last night and he saidpakistan is an ar with a country. unl you can change the national interest pakistan will keep playing this absurd game. >> he is quite right. because the role played by pakistan military in the last 6 years has been quite destructive. the wars they fought, they lost.

whenever they tried to change the pakistani political dynamics -- when they ruled, it took pakistan backwards. but at the same time i would add that pakistan has grown in the process. the political parties that pakistan has, despite their weaknesses and competence, they have strengthened in some ways because people have voted for progressive political parties and there's an increasing realization, and i will give credit to pakistan media headlines which has exposed the other phase the military and people want democracy see. >> rose: here is what is interesting about it. when sat dow the three of you, i raised this question: would the chief of the staff of the army, general kayani, would the ad of t isi, pashi, correct, would they have known if this was being carried out by opatives when the isi, and you

all said, no, they are not necessarily or unlikely to know, right? >> right. we can't be sure. it'sentily possible they wer noaware. >> rose: if they were not aware, wouldn't you think they would want to know? >> i think they wld know. even if they we themselves not of benefit, they know the pakistani inteigence agencies have developed into a kind of white elephant over the years. they know how much networking they have, how many former intelligence issues are working on their own, how religious extremism has gone, again in some pockets. if they don't know, they should not be in that business. >> rose: what is the consensus in pakistan about the raid that resulted in the killing of osama bin laden? what is the consensus about that in terms of what pakistan might have known about osama bin laden having been where he was for the five years he was there?

>> actually, the consensusin pakistan, it's like the way things were manipulated by the powers through the mea, that, instead of the question of why was he there, beingnnoticed thout the owledge and within the knowledge of the security setup, the main thing which is being discussed is how could the americans come and get him? that's sething wch is being discussed. it's again the question of -- the main issue of how he could -- like there are two debates basically. complicity or incompetency. so the topic of incompetency -- >> that's a bigger conversation.

>> right. >> than complicity. >> exactly. >> rose: do we know what they're finding in terms of his from the computer files and from whatever intelligence, they called it a treasure trove of information. is anything leaking out about what might have beenhere? >> n so far after the initial leaks with the media got and then the reports tt here in the u.s. people have been asked not to leak more information o this subject. so w don't know and things have to come up from here. there'nothing back in pakistan that we would know. >> rose: so i would come from washington. >> because the president is -- the treasure trove is here. >> rose:hat is the state o the pakistani-u.s. relations today?

>> i think it's probably at the lowest point in recent history. there's tremendous spicion on both sides. the pakistanis still suspect the united states of having some nefarious ames in afghanistan. they don't want the u.s. to leave in a precipitous matter and also don't want the u.s. to have a permanent presence after the withdrawal of the majority of its troops. the u.s. has very strong perception that pakistan plays a double game, that it's not willing to take on the afghan taliban and that it in fact keeps ties open with them; it's not willing to take them on, and people like the hogani group or the so-called credushi -- and they're not wling to take on the group in the heartland that are franchisees of al qaeda.

so there's a tremendous mutual suspicion and now o course with thgeneral having reduced the military presence of the u.s in pakistan, after the drone attack that killed 41 peop in dartha hill and after the attack on atabad, th reduced the u.s. footprint in afghanistan tremendously and it's becoming a rious impediment inetter relationships. >> so what can the united states do, for example? >> the united states can focus more on the development side of things, which historically it has not done. >> rose: gave the money to the military? >> yes. it was a pentagon-backed army relationships and there were otherinterests also. the security decide delivered also to be honest. during the 60s in cubanism and the 1980ese. counterterrorism is primarily a law enforcement action.

we never invested in pakistani police and law enforcement which is a big infrastruure which shows signs of improvement and reform. we continue to look at this election cycle in the u.s. we want change overnight. that never happens. we have to invest in education, in law enforcement, and meig infrastructure project. with $1.5 billion per year out which 5 bilon areaken, with $1 billion which is one person of pakistan, you can't do -- do one big thi and show to the people of the united peot it mea it. >> rose: there is the impression of the united states on the street is not good. >> yeah. it's uortunate that, after so much investment in terms of time and money, it has not helped and

the reason, as hassan abbas said, we didn't see any significant projects which people could relate to that here is the u.s. and it has this money for this dam or this city project or this tunnel or for a bridge. all of the money went into the security operators and the other money went into the civilian setup and it begin became a hands up bureaucracy and politicians which are not so good at spending it and the problem of corruption. so i think the u.s. needs to focus more on the civilian side. and even if you look at the history, the recent history, if they had invested in the military, they had invested personalities within the

military, not in the military institution as such, so that's another problem so i tnk there is still time the u.s. has to be involved with pakistan, but it needs to be involved with the people and it has to improve its image on the street level. >> what kind of stories are you interested in as a journalist? with being a reporter for "the new york times" i have been interested in what the american public has been interested in so the biggest stories always have been about militancy and the situation in fatah and i come from -- that was an advantage for me because i knew the area. so most of my coverage has been against terrorism. >> is pakistan, with the

development of a civil society, more, does it have a chanceo, in the near future, to reach its potential? >> absolutely. i think one has to put not just the aid issue in proper perspective and also the development of pastani society. it has a great potential because there's a youthful population. the median age is 21. 90 percent of the people are below that age which mns if they're properly educated and equipped andf the policies where creating an enabling environment, they can be very productive for the next 40, 50 years, and lift pakistan's economy. secondly it has a large middle class, 30 to 50 million people. with a fairly hyper capita income and lots of wealth, thank i have now becoming very active politically and socially. if you recall the floods of last

year, some of the greatest work was done by civil society groups and business houses in providing relief and reconstruction, rivelt shun and so on. rehabilitaon and so on. these arealso th groups that are now challenging the status quo, including the corrupt political parties that run the politics as family business. they're also challenging the military for control of the airways, for forming opinion, and the business community, the pakistan business council, for instance, has launched a great effort to build a relationship with india, because that is potentially the largest benefit for pakistan in the region because of itsocation. it has borders in the world's two leading growing economies, chinand dia andf it were topen trade with india, it could rise from $2 billion a

yearp to a hundred billion dollars a year, which would raisincome in pistan by almo $900 and in india by over 120 hub dollars per capita. so there is tmendous potential. it's just -- it will take time, has hassan was saying we have to let the civilians establish their supremacy, change their own internal operating procedures and allow the people to join them in establishing well-route the democracy. >> rose: will there be an argument to move closer to china? pakistan has always had a good relationship with china. >>hina -- not always. but, yeah, china-pakistan is a strong relationships and there's a reason for that one is, they're next to. second, they're seen as not interferering in the local politics. third, they have been helpful to the pakistan security establishment. but in the real world in terms of democracy and values and

freedoms to think and freedom to grow, i think that pakistan's relationship with the west, especially the united states, will b more beneficial. >> it shares what we're calling now out of universal values. that is more needed in pakistan. in china, pakistan can continue to collaborate for security reasons, big projects also, but the largest support needs to come from outside, and it's expected to come from the united states. >> rose: thank you for coming. hassan abbas, and pir zubair shah from "the new york times" and shuja nawaz from the atlanta cocil. mesh to have you on the program. ♪ ♪ . >> rose: larry kramer, a normal heart, first aeared on broadway 26 years ago. a powerful look the early days of aids and what it's like to be a gay man in new york city, with 56,000 people becoming infected every year and 1.1 milon peopleiving with h.i.v. the

play is as relevant today as it was in 1985. it's on broadway for the first time and getting rave reviews. it has received five tony award nominations and here is a look. >> you can g dressed. i can't find what i'm looking for. >> needed? needed for what? what is it you're trying to get me to do. >> you have to tell gay men to stop having sex. [laughter] >> i'm sorry, what? >> somebody has to. why not you? >> wouldn't it's be better coming from you? that's a preposterous request. >> it only sounds harsh. you wait a few years. it won't sound so harsh. >> you're talking about millions of men who singled out promise execute to be their single political agenda, the within that they would die before -- how do you deal with that? you tell them they may die. >> rue tell them. >> joining us, john benjamin hickey and the director, george

c. wolfe who cove directs with joel gray. i'm pleased to have them here at this table at this time. >> welcome. >> great to be here. >> so how did this come back, sir? >> how did it come back? a reading was done in october. it was october. joel gray directed. it was a benefit. and the response to it was resounded and everybody loved it. and dell roth who produced the set said this should be on broadway and all forces combined. >> and -- >> and toward the end of the season, itot -- twoand the toward the end ofthe season they found the theater an joel wa doin at show so they asked me to become involved and we got together, this astonishing cast and here we are. we did it in two weeks of rehearsal. that's the miracle. >> so what does it -- what did he bring to it, the beginning of it? >> genius. genius. and inspiration. and anstoundingly specific

vision. and i think a very individual ability to have actorses trust him implicitly. >> you would rather a director say to you this is what i believe, this is what i want to say, rather than a director say to you, what do you think, go do that? >> yeah. i don't like what do you think or go do that. that's why i'm an actor, not a director. i like to be told what to do. >> you like toe call on your skills to make it real? >> to be honest, i don't even need to know, for instance, george's complete vision. just tell me how i fit into it, so i can understand it emotionally enough. but i knew that george had something very big in his mind. i did not know what it was. and i think very intelligently, he might have held back cerin bits of information from the cost. >> absolutely not.we did only hf

rehearsal. but things started to appear. >> yo don't need too much to work with. >> wehought we were doing a staged reading up to a point, and then george would say things like, well, you know, i would like it if you knew your lines. if y couldn't and you need carry yo scripts for the first couple of weeks of previews, which we only have four days -- >> how do you carry your scripts? >> literally. >> so what was the big idea you had? >> well, the thing that -- the thing that struck me about the play, it's really sort of a horror film. 's people wake up one day and this thing they can't see is all of a sudden killing their friends. and it's getting closer and closer and closer, and the only weapon they have is their language and their heart and their passion, so that, therefore, all of the language that the characters areurling at each other and at the audience is in defiance of the loss that they are experiencing and the horror that they are

inside of. that's what it felt like. i was in new york in 79 and it was party, par, party, and then one day "gay plague" is everywhere. and what is it? why is it? and the one thing interesting about the play, the word aids is never used. it was before it was even called aids. so it's an -- all of the other characters are on the bottom level, just fighting for their life and fighting to le and fighting to be han, in a hostile land escape. >> so the big idea is this notion that all of a sudden what has desnded is something nobody could comprehend and it's changing everything people through. >> and t only thing they could use to fight it is what we use when we're trapped in a corner is our heart and our passion and our caring for the pple. >> so why is it title add normal hear >> i never talked about that. >> i play felix and joel plays with me. i'm the fashion editor of "the new york times." happily in the closet becausit

was a pre-- it was the politics of the sexual revolution that has happened but this is a character that is comfortable being in the closet and likes his life and doesn't feel any need comeout, and so -- i don't know, but he falls in love with ned weeks. it's a beautiful love story with just unfortunate timing because i get sick and -- i never thought what the title meant either but i think it's because these people, like everybody else are, desperate to be heard, to be acknowledged and desperate not to disappear from the face of the earth which is what ned believes is happening to all of his friends. >> and what larry's life is about. >> aren't the last two lines of the poem "we must love each other other die" something lik that. i'm paraphrasing poorly but i do think that is -- so somewhere in there, i think, is it larry's message. >> rose: and who is your character? >> she's based on a doctor, dr. linda lavenstein who was an

oncologist at nyu in the very forefront of doctors that were seeing c pose patients -- karposis paties and understanding it does not show up in otherwise healthy men, usually in their 20's which is what they sawith t first 16 or so cases so it was very confounding to her. . and s had polio. so there was a further identity with the community that was stricken by a foreign virus, an emotional connection? >> you had two weeks to prepare for this is. >> yes. >> i have all of these questions i would ask a normal actor. >> we don't even think of that. >> we don't even go there. >> not running on that treaill. >> rose: how is it to be back on stage?

>> wonderful. wonderful. feels great. it's been great. everybody is obviously, you know, the response to the play has been enormous and amazing and very heart-feltnd i think -- >> rose: you mean from the reviews to the audience to people in the street? >> i speak most i hadabout wt goes on between us andthe audiences. the reviews have been great. the accolades that we have received have been great. but what goes on, and john can talk about it as well, when we're on stage, it's a real conversation with that audience every night and it's a heavy one that you are physically incapable of avoiding as an actor. >> the conversation with the audience >> with the audience. >> the emotional conversation. >> it's so audible. i have done several plays. my fifth broadway show. i have never heard an audience laugh as loud, cry as hard as audibly. the emotional, the visceral,

electric emotional reaction that is elicited from the audience is -- yeah, you can't ignore it. >> also the thing, when people talk to me about the play, they don't say "good work" or "brilliant work" they start talking about loss and aring. one of my friends said a 20-year-old student came over and started sobbing and hugging him. it's interesting. because it seems to be attracting the people that lived through the time period and because there was so much death, after a while you become nument. so i think people are grieving fully for the first time and it's also attracting a young audience who are learning of a history they didn't know existed and are -- it's evoking outrage and sadness and a sense of emwerment which i think is thrill. >> very important. >> and also when we finish the play every night, what to us -- what happens to us as actors,

you think we will get through the play and be ok. and sometime around the second act you're swept up by this tsunamand it's very, very hard to keep it together and not st beco part of the audience, which i think has to do with the brilliant way george -- >> so it's hard not to play it in concert with them rather than where you might go otherwise. >> well, george has staged it in a brilliant way where the actors who are not in specific scenes act almost like a greek chorus where observers of what is going on and he said -- and i at one point in rehearsalaid, i find myself getting very upset? a. what do i do?he said do what. just do it in character. and so you start to feel from the audience this -- like it's really waves of emotion and audible says and sobs and it's very intense. and the after we take our

curtain, werealize that nobody ves in the theater. they just stand there. >> in dead silence. >> just thinking. >> yeah. and there's a chiron at the end that says 35 million people have died from the disease, this is where the disease stands now. and i think there's this deafening silence when when come off of our curtain call thinking, did they turn the monitors off? and people are filing out. >> it's also interesting at the end of the play all of these names are projected all over the walls of the theater, and what is interesting, i have had a number of people come up and say "i saw, i saw the name of my friend, i saw the name" an there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of names and people are identifying seeing the name of a lost person, a very close person, so there's some kind of incredibly intense symbiotic

action happening between the play and the audience that is thrill. >> it's spectacular to act. >> yes, it is. >> like we -- the other, the kind of funny thing is, you know, you do your curtain, you try to keep it together. the audience is sobbing. then we come upstairs and play music and have dnk. because we got it all out. exactly. >> we're all very happy. >> all the way home. >> have you had this kindf response before in anything you have done? never. and i have been fortune. the four shs difficulty before this, cabaret with to be richaron a mary stewart, have all bn big successes but nothing has come close to what audiences feel for this play. and theoung people that are coming and feel the play as much about aids and history and this moment in time as it is about political empowerment, a lot of people feel politically disenfranchised and don't see

this as a gay play about gay men. they see it as a call to arms. like this is what you can do. this organization that ned weeks started with six men, wow, it really only takes one person, it's about democracy see and standing up to tyranny and saying -- i think young people see so much more in it than what we see frankly. >> has is direct you correcting at all? have you evolved at all in terms of the way this was -- >> no. i think it was directed and then we had four previews and then we opened, so normally, you have a three-week preview period where you can adjust and change and we work it through but what has been a pleasure for me is coming back is coming back and seeing the depth and detail that actors are bringing to the role. >> they were on to something. no play should have more than

two weeks -- >> >> never >> i think the two weeksserved a dynamic and it should never happen again. i can't say i wld never do it with another group of actors. each of these actor are so ferociously brave, foolishly brave as well because there was no time to create a distance between their own hearts and the hearts of the character. there was no time to create that distance they merged with the character's hearts. larry sewed to me one time. he said i didn't know i had written a love story. i think because, you know, hickey and el and joe and all of the people are putting -- it's their hearts thank the are on the stage and that's what i think people are responding to and that's the brilliance of the event is heart. heart is meeting heart with dazzling language, with outrage with fragi tee, and that is,

to m going back to the normal heart. that is what struck me as so interesting about larry, as ferocious and intense as lay is, what is underneath that is this caring, caring, caring, deeply fragile caring heart. what happens when a fragile heart meets ferocious language? that's the play. >> damn, he said that well! [laughter] >> you know, that's what is so wonderful about it and it's their hearts that are making "the normal heart" soar, as well the brilliance of the play. >>his is what makesou want to be an actor, isn it? >> you dream of it. ellen mentioned we all act as a witness, a greek chorus witnessing play and you can peripherally see the audience. and every nighi think to myself, i'm from plano, texas, and here i am on broadway stage in this huge hit in this great play that is a roller coaster thrill ride for an actor. it does not get any better.

>> it doesn't get any better. >> finding this nd of moment. >> especlly like, because of john's character, he is kind of, you know, acting in the last three extremely emotional scenes of the play. i'm part of that greek chorus. so i am looking at john and right past john i can see the first five or six rows. and it's a killer. some nights i say my goal tonight is to watch john's scene and not cry. then i see six rows of people sobbing and i -- then i say oh, yeah, right, that's a tear, it's not like from the air carlos 'n charlie's vent. >> larry is coming on this program in several weeks. what is his response? >> he is very proud and deeply moved and there have been wonderful productions of his

play. and the thing that struck me, he said i didn't know i had written a love story. i didn't know i had written that. >> he is very proud, he loves the cast. we finished our first preview, the final dress and he came and i was complaining about something not working the way i want it to work. he came down the aisle silently sobbing and threw his arms around me. it was so humbling because -- it was that heart again, that heart of his he has been thrilled and i'm so thrilled for him because we have been going to all of these atwardz and he walked out on stage and everybody stood up and cleared for him. and for somebody who has gone through so much, so much physical intensity and also who was attacked at various times, it's so thrilling to see him receiving the praise that i think he really deserves. >> rose: he is, among other things, is fearless.

that's what he is. >> absolutely. >> and also, i think what the audience are realizing and critics, larry did write a beautiful play. now, in 1985, he wrote a polemic, a potical diatribe, he great a great play. it's hilariously funny. a beautiful love story. it's very impassioned. and i think is producti of it, because of george, is -- you real see that oh, i could see why the ned weeks character fashioned himself after phillip barry because a lot of larry kreimer's language could be heard in another version in a fill up barry play as a sophisticated romance and i think that part of the play -- has been pushed up in this production and it has not been in other productions.

>> larry is five or six nights a week outside of the theater, handing out lette. tell them, george. >> larry wrote this very intense impassioned letter where he talked about aids and the characters that he wanted in the play and, he said i want the audience to come in and think they're going to see "barefoot the park" insteadof opening the play bill and saying i know what i'm going to see. said the same thing. he said how about in we -- so two or three or up to five nights a week she handing out a flyer to people as they leave the thear. it's the most rillg spectacle to see ts man out there, after hislay, reaching people, connecting to people, and see all of these young -- >> he is not done, not done. >> rose: this not a py; this

is life. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> you think that is bad, this is worse, it's still going on. i'm sorry you're crying. cry a little more. get off your ass, which is a line in the play. >> if there were more optimism in 2011 than there was in 1980. >> absolutely 100%. there are still horrifying things. drugs have to be cheaper so everybody can receive them. but it was death sentence. it was a death sentence. >> and it is now. >> and it is a maintainable disease that you can have a life with it. >> if you have enough money. >> and don't live in sub sahara africa. >> who is ned weeks. >> ned weeks is larry kraimer and larr has cread a romantic hero, a la larry, who is the romantic hero of h play. but one of the most exaordinary thingsbout ned weeks being a stand in for larry is that you see both sides. larry so not romantic about

himself. you see why, what h created, why he created it and how brilliantly he did and you also see why they g rid of him, why he was thrown out. and larry went from gmhc, gay mens health crisis, andwent to formct up, a more political based thing. and you see both sides. you see what there is to love about ned weeks. you see what there is to not love. and that's what makes the play so psychogically interesting. >> he doesn't project himself at all. >> rose: and he is a great american character. he is a great american character. just in the sense that he goes, this is wrong and i'm not going to stop until somebody deals with it. >> i'm not going to be embarrassed if you don't approve. >> exactly. it's ferocious and it's fearless and uncompromising and frequently people like that are not necessarily applauded but

wh they accomplish is astonishing. >> if they weren't i'm not sure what would accomplish. >> exactly. >> let me do one clip much this is ned confronting hits brothers for t loving him and supporting him unconditionally because he is gay. here it is. >> ned, you can be gay. you can be proud, no matter what i think. everybody is oppressed by somebody else in some form or another. some of us learn how to fight back, with or without the help of others despite their opinions, even those closest to us and judging interest this mess your friends are in, it's imperative you stand up and be prouder than ever. >> can't you see i'm trying to do that? can't you perverse ego proclaiming it's own superiority see i'm trying to be proud? you can only find room to ultimate fear ka yourself normal. >> you make it sound like i'm the enly. >> i'm thinking you and your straight world are our enemy. i'm serious with you and with myself and every doctor who ever

told me i'm sick and interfered with my loving a man -- i'm trying to understand why nobody wants to hear that we're dying, why nobody wants to help, and my own brother doesn't want to help. >> ok. i want to show one more clip. this is you. talking to the government official who has turd down funding for your research, just to give full range of what you can expect when you are -- are you ok seeing th? >> yeah. >> it's no longer just your diseas though you seem to think it is. >> oh, i do, do i? and you're here to take it from me? is that it? well, let me let you in on a little secret, doctor. you can have it. i never wanted it in the first place. do you think that it is my good fortune to have the privilege of watching young men die? what am i arguing with you for? you don't know enough medicine to treat a mouse!

>> congratulations. >> thank you. >> she's only getting warmed up there. >> this is early. >> exactly. >> 15 minutes later "and another thing... ." >> blame your director for not giving me better clips. congratulations. >> thank you. >> great 0 see you. >> good to have you, my friend. >> congratulations. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> ♪ ♪

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